|
Kai Tave posted:Ultimately the only thing that makes cyberlimb attribute stuff really problematic is the fact that they let you double-dip by "customizing" them up to your metatype max rating, then augmenting them past that point. Everything else follows the "augmented maximum" rule but they let cyberlimbs circumvent that restriction. If they didn't let an Agility 1, Strength 1, 98 pound weakling strap on an Olympic super-athlete's robot arm before then overclocking it even further then they'd be just another method of augmenting your attributes no more abusive, and in fact more restrictive, than other available methods. This could have been beta feedback. Now it's just a cry into the ether.
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2013 22:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 11:19 |
|
|
I wasn't aware SR4 had an open beta.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2013 22:28
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:I wasn't aware SR4 had an open beta. …and cyberlimb attributes and customisation has been a problem since the last few years of SR2 anyway, so it's not like they didn't know about it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2013 22:39
|
|
|
I'm actually not that set against the super-cyber-arm. It has a mechanical niche that, quite frankly, fits the whole point of the arm entirely. Why do you chop off your goddamn legs and put fake ones there instead? Well, because they're better. Someone who's perfectly healthy and hale, someone who's already swole and fast on their feet - they don't need to chop off their arms and legs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 03:52
|
|
|
Yeah, but the "super cyberarm" is literally the only piece of cyberware in the game that works like that and it has a lot of undesired/unintended consequences as a result. Like, nobody starts with borderline-crippled physical attributes and says "ah it's fine, I'll just use Muscle Replacement and bam, 11's in everything." Characters that are swole and fast and healthy still get augmentations because those augmentations make them better, more than human, but Muscle Replacement can't turn a 98 pound poindexter into Charles Atlas and Wired Reflexes won't make Molasses McTurtleson the fastest thing on two legs. Getting a sweet robot arm in a cyberpunk game shouldn't be a thing that players actively recoil from unless they're willing to burn tons of money or are scrawny turbo-nerds. I mean, you're a pink mohawk guy Cirno, and the way cyberlimbs work in SR4 and 5 is an ugly cludge borne of designers trying to inject more verisimiluation into the game instead of saying "man, cyberlimbs are rad, let's make them a thing that's rad for everybody and not just people looking to game the system." Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Aug 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 07:58
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Yeah, but the "super cyberarm" is literally the only piece of cyberware in the game that works like that and it has a lot of undesired/unintended consequences as a result. Like, nobody starts with borderline-crippled physical attributes and says "ah it's fine, I'll just use Muscle Replacement and bam, 11's in everything." Characters that are swole and fast and healthy still get augmentations because those augmentations make them better, more than human, but Muscle Replacement can't turn a 98 pound poindexter into Charles Atlas and Wired Reflexes won't make Molasses McTurtleson the fastest thing on two legs. Actually, given that this is the 4e thread, I've done and said that plenty of times!  Muscle toner 2 and Suprathyroid Gland (for which you need restricted gear but it's so, so worth it) give you +3 agility. If you're willing to eat a second level of restricted gear, that knows you to +5 - and for a non-elf, that means you need Agility 4 to knock yourself into augmented max. It's even "better" with Reaction - Wired Reflexes 2, Reaction boosters 2, and Suprathyroid - that's Reaction +5, and you can still upgrade Reaction Boosters more. Which means you can hit your augmented max - literally the crowning achievement of humanity, the very best that has and will ever exist, a level no non-augmented human can ever reach - starting from the bare average of Reaction 3 and packing on the 'ware. The thing with the cyberlimb isn't that it let you hit your max, it's that it let you hit your max for cheap in terms of nuyen and essence - but with the drawback of being limited just to that one limb. The basic concept of the stuffed to the gills cyberarm is something that I'm ok with. It lets you do what the rest of 'ware does, but cheaper - but, in turn, only for that one arm, which means you're limited to one handed weapons (which in turn removes you from using all the really GOOD weapons). Also as far as essence and nuyen costs go, for what it's worth, cyberarms only really game the system in SR4 if you are an absolute true weakling in that stat. It's a way of saying "Ok, my elf face can still shoot guys, but not as good as the sammy." Admittingly I am not entirely experienced with pre-SR4 editions, so I'm not sure how they did it. Was it significantly better? The solutions to this that I can see? Well, it's hard to see solutions that don't open other problems. If you go with "Cyberlimbs start at the score you already have for the rest of your body," does that solve the issue? It means the 1 Agility human needs two more levels of customed cyberlimb into Agility - so a good 3k nuyen, which may or may not be much to sneeze at, but I don't think it cures the problem of the weakling with the super arm (though it DOES open cyberarms to others much easier, which is why I actually do support this). If you say cyberlimbs can never be improved stat-wise, it means the only reason you'd take a cool robot arm is explicitly to do sorta goofy things with it, which I feel shut down far more things then it opens. Again, I guess what it really comes down to is: I think cyberlimbs should be cool and radical for all kinds of characters. I just don't think this excludes the super arm. SR4 is explicitly set up so that most Shadowrun roles are more loosey goosey, so having a face or a hacker who also has The Arm with which he can shoot stuff works just fine under the system - because the cyber sammy who DOES have suprathyroid gland and muscle toner can just as easily throw some nuyen into a good commlink and be the hacker, or grab tailored pheremones and be an elf to be a decent enough face.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 08:23
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:The thing with the cyberlimb isn't that it let you hit your max, it's that it let you hit your max for cheap in terms of nuyen and essence - but with the drawback of being limited just to that one limb. The basic concept of the stuffed to the gills cyberarm is something that I'm ok with. It lets you do what the rest of 'ware does, but cheaper - but, in turn, only for that one arm, which means you're limited to one handed weapons (which in turn removes you from using all the really GOOD weapons). The catch, though, is that if it's cheap and easy to cheese one arm part the expected point of augmentation then it's probably going to wind up still being a bargain if you go for a pair of them, which then lets you get away with more and with attribute averaging can wind up being an even better deal on top of it. Like, if our hypothetical turbonerd gets two megaboosted cyberarms then, thanks to SR4's (and SR5's) attempt at making sense out of this incredible discrepancy technically this guy is only rolling, let's say, 9 Agility when using his arms...but "whole body" tasks get averaged which means that while it'll be lower thanks to his terrible legs his "average Agility" is now a 5, which is still a hell of a boost and he can pump that value up even higher later either through karma or other means. This isn't helped at all by SR4/5 not bothering to really elaborate at all on the subject of what a guy with mix-and-match robot limbs can and cannot do with them. quote:Admittingly I am not entirely experienced with pre-SR4 editions, so I'm not sure how they did it. Was it significantly better? I guess it depends on your definition of "significantly better." In 2E out of the core book, which is all the 2E I have on hand at the moment, Cyberlimbs came in two flavors, simple replacement and rad cyberlimb. Replacements cost 50k, rad cyberlimbs 100k, but all replacement limbs used your regular attributes by default. So if you had Strength 6 then so did your rad cyberarm. There was no capacity system but any implant blades you wanted could be put in them for no additional essence cost and they gave you a 50% essence reduction for smartlinks (which used to be a thing that ran all the way from your hand, up your arm, and into your brainmeats). You could also put "devices" in your arm at 4 times the normal cost. Exactly what devices and how many you could have was something left up to you and your GM to hash out. Want a medkit in your arm? Sure, why not. Multitools? gently caress it, whatever. Stick a cat in there if you want, it's the future and anything's possible. You could also boost the limb's Strength for 150k a pop, but beyond a cautionary blurb about not trying to lift cars and poo poo there A). were no "averaging" rules, it was basically left up to "common sense" to decide what your boosted limb could and couldn't help you do and B). no maximums. If you had the money you could theoretically put as much Strength boosts on your rad arm as you wanted though, of course, you would eventually hit a cap anyway. Oh, and every two cyberlimbs counted as one level of Dermal Plating. quote:The solutions to this that I can see? Well, it's hard to see solutions that don't open other problems. If you go with "Cyberlimbs start at the score you already have for the rest of your body," does that solve the issue? It means the 1 Agility human needs two more levels of customed cyberlimb into Agility - so a good 3k nuyen, which may or may not be much to sneeze at, but I don't think it cures the problem of the weakling with the super arm (though it DOES open cyberarms to others much easier, which is why I actually do support this). If you say cyberlimbs can never be improved stat-wise, it means the only reason you'd take a cool robot arm is explicitly to do sorta goofy things with it, which I feel shut down far more things then it opens. Like I said, I think the solution is simply ditch Cyberlimb Customization which is where most of the bullshit comes from. Robot limbs share your stats, then they can be augmented but those augmentations have a reasonable cap and reasonable expense for what they allow you to do. The Agility 1 turbonerd starts with an Agility 1 robot arm, which he can then augment by three or four points...so up to a 4 or a 5 in his robot arm...but then he's hit his augment cap. That's still, comparatively, a huge loving improvement, this guy's gone from a total klutz to above-average or better...y'know, in one arm anyway. But if he raises his actual Agility attribute then the limb will follow along so he isn't stuck with an Agility 4 arm forever, he just has to "grow into it" if he wants to be truly superhuman instead of merely above average. I might also be mean and say "if you have to do something that involves your whole body then you use the lower of your limbs' attributes, not the average. Punch a dude's face inside out with your strength-boosted arm, sure. Trying to climb a cliff with your 1 Strength meat-legs? Tough luck, dork. Hit the gym." That might make cyberlimbs a little too underwhelming, though. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Aug 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 09:12
|
|
|
Cyberlimbs still aren't perfect, but man go back and look at their rules from 3rd edition or earlier and take a shot for each contradictory statement in the same paragraph, or each overly complicated numbercrunching example jammed into a poorly edited splatbook.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 13:36
|
|
|
I actually skipped 3E entirely in favor of collecting shitloads of 2E books when they hit the used/clearance shelves. How bad were they there?
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 13:46
|
|
|
I heard 3e started the whole movement towards Mirrorshades so that's already the biggest point against it 
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 13:51
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:I actually skipped 3E entirely in favor of collecting shitloads of 2E books when they hit the used/clearance shelves. How bad were they there? 3rd edition was primarily the work for Rob Boyle and Steve Kenson so you'll see a lot of transhumanism and gay slash fic and I'm being totally serious.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 14:12
|
|
|
So the cyberlimbs were gay or something? That seems confusing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 22:21
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:So the cyberlimbs were gay or something? That seems confusing. Rob Boyle is responsible for the proto-Eclipse Phase that is Renraku Shutdown and expanding cyberware in Man And Machine and the various genetic engineering talk in State Of The Art. Steve Kenson's responsible for bringing the furries into the game with the SURGE expression in Wake Of The Comet.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2013 23:06
|
|
|
The whole confusing cyberlimbs having their own strength and agility actually dates back to 2e Cybertechnology (principle writer Tom Dowd) and the whole averaging thing does too. It's woth noting that in book they pointed out it added additional complexity. Instead of capacity, they had these really confusing weight rules (probably to go along with the cyberlimb electromagnet rules). edit: Even then, cyberlimbs were straight modifiers to Quickness (2e's Agility stat) and Body instead of having their own score, it was just Strength where it had a base stat. Kwyndig fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Aug 5, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 03:41
|
|
|
Well, 100% flexible wrists would make for some nifty knifeplay :iamafag: Also, I don't get the hate on Shadowrun introducing "furries". While players will rarely make a changeling, I've never seen a furry in play, and for the GM they introduce a great variety of metagenetic weirdness to the game. I've had a regular dude with just a powerful nose (vomeronasal organ quality) that could smell people's tells when negotiating, or a man that looked kind of (but not directly) like an ankylosaurus guarding an old village near Sarajevo. It adds flavour is all. I'm probably just lucky that my group wouldn't make a cat shifter or making GBS threads dicknipple cat girl, but there you are..
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 09:57
|
|
|
Man, Shadowrun has always had "furries" if we're really going to make this a thing, unless you're going to tell me that all those people wanting to play shapeshifters somehow didn't exist. And I'm still honestly not sure what any of that had to do with me asking about how 3E handled robot arms but hey okay, thanks for the info I guess.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 11:01
|
|
|
Can we tell some war stories, now? I'm all in the mood after you posted the following in the 5E thread:Kai Tave posted:It's possible to cross the streams too. In children overboard's game we're in the middle of pulling off a dataheist against an Ares subsidiary. The planning and infiltration were (mostly) pretty mirrorshades in spirit...a combination of free-jumping onto the roof of the building from an overhead tourist monorail after some magically-enhanced fast talking to clear the car of passengers, some grappling gun action to help get the less athletic hacker in with the rest of us, and a conveniently timed distraction in a nearby shopping complex to get the guards focused on other things while we sneak in, grab what we came for (and maybe some extra goodies on the side), and get out. I guess my favorite (since I mostly GM) is my players deciding to hijack a coupé, have a troll go-ganger friend of one of the characters rig a load of grenades to go off at the same time by wireless signal (it was two flashbangs, two smokes and a powerful EMP iirc), then let the car sort of drive up to a NYPD Inc. station by itself before activating their distraction. Works fine at first, since their gangster friend only had one in demolition and glitched, to make a horribly unstable mess of the grenades, but nevertheless a somewhat stable one. I decide it gets about ten yards down lucky dragon blv. (at the far other end of which a station is located) before a nose kid pokes the bomb through the cars open window, and a large chunk of chinatown is smoked over and wreathed in disco light - before the EMP goes ape and burns out tags and electronics all around. Ah well, they made the run, though the subsequent was a lot harder one. Free. For the Triads. In return for not killing them so hard their ancestors turn dizzy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 11:42
|
|
|
Tias posted:Well, 100% flexible wrists would make for some nifty knifeplay :iamafag: It more or less comes down to "everyone has their limits." For some, metahumans PERIOD was too much, so they stuck with Cyberpunk 2020 and then everyone laughed at them when their game line became barbie dolls and prepubescent X-men. For some, the standard metahumans are alright but that's it. For some, metahumans and shifters and SURGE'd metahumans are all good. And the some people just go gungho with Infected and Drakes and all that. It's not so much that people have a big hard on for "furries" as it is that people have a big hard on for getting super, super mad when others play the game the "wrong way."
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 11:46
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:For some, metahumans PERIOD was too much, so they stuck with Cyberpunk 2020 and then everyone laughed at them when their game line became barbie dolls and prepubescent X-men. Man, no. I'll laugh at a lot of people for a lot of reasons, but laughing at Cyberpunk fans over what happened with v3 is just mean.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 12:01
|
|
|
Aight, I hear you. People GETTING MAD ABOUT GAMES is sad, but I guess we're all guilty of that somewhere or other. I think Shadowrun should be cool cyberpunk poo poo with magic and trolls, but I don't really mind AIs, SURGED and pixies or whathave you, as long as it's done in moderation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 12:08
|
|
|
The real question with Shadowrun, is "How many shadowrunners does it take to drop an 8-year-old on K10?", and the answer is "The number you brought, plus one." Vice needs to come out for 5E so I can make a K10 Injection Dart Sniper. He doesn't solve problems, but he sure as hell watches a lot of problems work themselves out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 14:21
|
|
|
I don't have a problem with the SURGE rules as they currently exist in 4e. Their fluff introduction was really really bad though. It started out okay and then quickly devolved into transhumanist clubbing and a segment that must be read to be believed.Year of the Comet Page 34 posted:JQ: My guest today is Rebecca Constantine, one of the first changeling superstars, Rebecca, forgive me for saying this, but you are hotter than Texas asphalt during a heat wave in August. It goes on, but you get the idea.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2013 23:16
|
|
|
Yeah, it wasn't great that the first introduction most players got to changelings was literally a catgirl pornstar. But they got better, especially with the introduction of Simon Andrews. “Look mate, I’m just here trying to have a good time. But if you want, we can step outside, I can beat the piss out of you, then come back here and shag your girl. Sound good?"
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 00:45
|
|
|
Man that's not a WACKY ANIMAL PERSON CHANGELING! That's a T'skrang, come on.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 00:56
|
|
|
 I... actually, I'm drawing a blank. I usually just created three eyed chlorophyll people. Or Logic 16 Pixie secret masters 
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 01:05
|
|
|
Zereth posted:Man that's not a WACKY ANIMAL PERSON CHANGELING! Totally a T'skrang. Speaking of which, is Earthdawn still a thing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 01:16
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:Totally a T'skrang. Speaking of which, is Earthdawn still a thing?  Hell no.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 02:12
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:Totally a T'skrang. Speaking of which, is Earthdawn still a thing? Technically, yes. Functionally... well, just look up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 07:24
|
|
|
That answer also sort of applies if the question is intended to be "is Earthdawn still a thing in Shadowrun canon?" Basically because the two games aren't really under the same company's umbrella anymore they've downplayed the shoutouts and obvious references but I believe it's still more or less a nudge-nudge wink-wink sort of deal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 07:44
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:It more or less comes down to "everyone has their limits." I'm one of those "metahumans is too much" people. Don't get me wrong, cyberpunkXmagic is a cool idea, but it makes no sense to me when all the magic in the world is based on folklore and blah blah blah, but metahumans are D&D races. Is D&D folklore in the world of Shadowrun? Changelings are actually sort of okay because they're animal people and whatnot, which exist in folklore and make a certain amount of "sense" what with the increased magic levels and so on. The elephant-head and monkey people especially make sense in the context of Indian mythology. AIs are great because they're core cyberpunk, and technomancers are kind of like Angie Mitchell in Count Zero, but naturally occuring instead of engineered. Speaking of which, I want to roll a rigger technomancer for fun and maybe a future campaign. Any suggestions on the best way to do this? The Dronomancer stream is an obvious choice, and I'm also thinking I'd take the Daedalus Paragon. The simrig complex form would seem to replace a control rig but I'm not sure.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 12:04
|
|
|
Martello posted:I'm one of those "metahumans is too much" people. Don't get me wrong, cyberpunkXmagic is a cool idea, but it makes no sense to me when all the magic in the world is based on folklore and blah blah blah, but metahumans are D&D races. Is D&D folklore in the world of Shadowrun? Well, again, it's because of Earthdawn. I don't know if it was always set down that way from day one but the answer is that D&D isn't folklore, but Earthdawn is the no-fooling prehistory of the world as we know it and all the metahumans in "core" Shadowrun are races from that period popping back into existence. In theory once mana levels got high enough you might see Obsidimen and Tskrang and Windlings again (along with the Horrors) but that's at an unspecified-yet-always-distant point in the future. Not saying that should sway your opinion, that's just the explanation for it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 12:10
|
|
|
Martello posted:Changelings are actually sort of okay because they're animal people and whatnot, which exist in folklore and make a certain amount of "sense" what with the increased magic levels and so on. The elephant-head and monkey people especially make sense in the context of Indian mythology. Technically, SURGE changelings aren't animal people, they just happened to be mostly animal people. In theory, SURGE was supposed to be random mutations like being exposed to radiation or toxic waste would in like '80s scifi b-movies, except caused by magic. It might give you terrific abilities but also disfiguring ones. In reality, they became an extra layer of advantages and disadvantages that people abused during character creation to make special, unique snowflake, min-maxed characters. And the way there handled pretty much gives you free BP: Class I SURGE, a 5 BP quality, provides 10 additional BP to spend on Positive Metagenic Qualities (which also include some Positive Qualities as well), while taking 5 BP in Negative Metagenic Qualities. This might sound balanced, until you see that 5BP Negative Mutagenic Qualities include things like mood hair (which is supposed to give you penalties to Judge Intentions, but let's face it, I wear a hat or shave my head, no more penalty), unusual hair (which is described as being either an unnatural hair color, like most cyberpunk dye jobs, or hair growing in patterns, including full body; guess what's chosen most?), "striking skin pigmentation" (patterns or unusual colors again, so you can make your Drow character without being a "Grover" Night One), a vestigal tail (which could be hidden under clothing or cut off), or "extravagant eyes" (again, like that poo poo hasn't been seen since cybereyes were invented). Now, everything I described to you are 5BP negative qualities. Class III SURGE is a 15 BP quality, providing 30 BP Positive/15 Negative. While some of the Positive Metagenic Qualities are offset by some built-in negatives (like Shiva Arms and 360-Vision), most don't. Like, poo poo like Arcane Arrester (which treats any Force-based spell, including Critter abilities, at half their Force, rounded down), Bicardial (two hearts apparently gives you 8 stun boxes than 6), Celerity (run faster at 1/2 bonus to movement), Metagenic Improvement (+1 bonus to an Attribute! On top of Exceptional Attribute!), Nasty Vibe (bonus to intimidation checks), Dermal Deposits (treat as natural Dermal Armor, double that for trolls), and various sensory bonuses. Now, you see the problem.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 13:12
|
|
|
Martello posted:I'm one of those "metahumans is too much" people. Don't get me wrong, cyberpunkXmagic is a cool idea, but it makes no sense to me when all the magic in the world is based on folklore and blah blah blah, but metahumans are D&D races. Is D&D folklore in the world of Shadowrun? You do realize that elves and dwarves and trolls are all actual folklore in basis right? They weren't invented by Tolkien. Read some actual mythology that isn't Greco-Roman. Try a Norse edda or some original Grim's, those things are full of elves and trolls and dwarves. It's just the Orks that are the odd man out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 14:26
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:You do realize that elves and dwarves and trolls are all actual folklore in basis right? They weren't invented by Tolkien. Read some actual mythology that isn't Greco-Roman. Try a Norse edda or some original Grim's, those things are full of elves and trolls and dwarves. Elves and dwarves as appearing in Shadowrun, however, were invented by Tolkien.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 14:35
|
|
|
Tolkien was just another pseudonym adopted by Ehran the Scribe. The Middle-Earth books were his way of preparing us for the coming age of magic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 14:37
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:You do realize that elves and dwarves and trolls are all actual folklore in basis right? They weren't invented by Tolkien. Read some actual mythology that isn't Greco-Roman. Try a Norse edda or some original Grim's, those things are full of elves and trolls and dwarves. Oh right yeah I've never read anything but Greco-Roman myth, you've hit the nail on the head there buddy.  Like Piell said, Shadowrun elves and dwarves are straight out of Tolkien. Obviously he was influenced by Norse and other Germanic mythology, but ELVES and DWARVES as depicted in D&D, Shadowrun, and a million other formulaic fantasy worlds are definitely Tolkien's thing. Try knowing what you're talking about before you act condescending.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 15:22
|
|
|
Reading up on the metahuman varients, pretty much all the metatypes have local variations that have to do with the local culture. Asian dwarves are weird monkey people. Greek orcs are satyrs, and trolls are minotaurs. Asian orcs are oni. Yadayadayada. So, while no doubt the races are design wise just ripped from dnd and Tolkien, in world it's sightly different.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 16:49
|
|
|
Yeah I can dig the local metavariants, but those are only very rare mutations and the vast majority of metahumans are the Tolkien/D&D baseline, Martello fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Aug 6, 2013 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 16:57
|
|
|
Actually, several metavariants are by far the dominant local variety. I can't be arsed to look up which, but I read it a couple of days ago in RC.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 17:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 11:19 |
|
|
Yeah, you got me, I should have checked RC before I made that post. Japan seems to be the only one, with Koborokuru and Oni being the dominant metatypes over the baseline Dwarfs and Orks. Other than that they're all rare metatypes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2013 19:07
|
|