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The thing that got me about Shadowrun 4e was that the Matrix rules, while a lot better than those in previous editions, were extremely badly-explained. Matrix combat seems to just be "I attack him, did I hit, he attacks me, did he hit" ad nauseam, and having nodes limited to System values of 6 was just retarded. Did they ever say if it was okay for an Agent to run an Agent to run an Agent to run an Agent and just have a huge army of Agent programs to do everything? The rules as written confuse the hell out of me.
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Jun 29, 2009 01:32
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 11:59 |
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For those who are interested in Shadowrun, try checking out Corporation. It's like Shadowrun without the fantasy stuff, and set a bunch further in the future. The system looks like a halfway-house between D&D and Shadowrun 4e - you add your skill and stat (which are usually between 1-10) together, then try and roll under them on 2d10. There's a lot of cool ideas in there, like FTL travel, AIs ruling the world, an evil UN, evil corporations ala the old game Syndicate, chips in everyone to identify them, ruined alien civilisations, and tons of cyberware. The rules are really quite simple, I think the entire game mechanic chapter is about 13 pages total... Including the LIMB LOSS TABLE.
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Jul 10, 2009 18:17
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:I liked it better when it was called Cyberpunk. But that game loving sucks.
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Jul 11, 2009 15:12
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Mystic Mongol posted:Have fun shootin' spirits. Also I can take my all meat fists anywhere, while you'll have to leave your guns behind at the security checkpoint. Until one mage looks at you.
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Feb 24, 2011 16:01
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I'm considering house-ruling melee fighting to be a simple action instead of a complex one. Is this going to break anything?
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Apr 25, 2012 21:20
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Desty posted:ended up doing something like 50L. One light wound?
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May 3, 2012 14:17
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I hate advantage/disadvantage points buy systems just because of this kind of poo poo. The only way picking up allergy disadvantages is actually a disadvantage is if you play with a GM who reads everyone's disadvantages every game and works out how they will gently caress you up, and who wants to have to do all that work as a GM, and who would really want to play in that kind of game? Not to mention the min-maxing bullshit involved with taking incompetence in things you never intend to touch with a barge pole, and disadvantages to things you're sure you're never going to encounter. I ban them from character generation when I run a game - they're just a way for the players with more system mastery to get more build points than newer players.
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May 12, 2012 10:22
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I think I prefer hackers as wireless wizards who can affect all technology. If you can just turn off their access, then their archetype evaporates the moment you face competent opposition. There should be countermeasures, but you should have to pay for them, and hackers should be able to overcome them, just like with magic.
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Apr 3, 2013 11:05
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Bigass Moth posted:It goes both ways - someone with twinked out firearms skill can kill just as easily. Well, no. There are a lot more defenses against bullets than there are against magic, and your average target will have more of them.
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Apr 8, 2013 19:44
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Bigass Moth posted:You can do a lot of different things in Shadowrun, but if you can't be competent in combat you won't last long. Eh, depends on the game, I suppose. Someone always pops out of the woodwork when posts like this come up to say, "In my games, if combat occurs, you already screwed up and lost". Me, I prefer not to make half the game and a lot of archetypes obsolete, so bullets fly all the drat time.
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Apr 9, 2013 23:19
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Bigass Moth posted:Trolls pay an extra 50% for everything. RIP troll PCs. "Oh no! My 400 nuyen sword now costs SIX HUNDRED Nuyen! How will I live?!" If other factors stay the same, this won't even come close to balancing trolls against humans in the "effective Shadowrunner" stakes.
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May 31, 2013 21:03
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Bigass Moth posted:Have fun buying Synaptic Boosters, ever, as a troll. Any high-end gear/ware really. Sounds like this isn't the case anyway, but even if it were it would just mean you'd see a lot more troll adept and mage PCs.
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Jun 4, 2013 01:04
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"I am playing a professional mercenary, and I have chosen to fight exclusively with a monowhip which I have no skill in, because it's what my character would do". A lot of posts in here sound like they're being made by the dude who plays a D&D fighter with 8 strength and everyone else has to put up with 'cause he's a player character.
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Jun 10, 2013 19:42
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I seem to recall the Ares Alpha pretty much invalidating every other assault rifle in the SR4 core book thanks to its 2 free recoil compensation that it got just because. It cost like an extra thousand bucks in a game where the people who use it have a million bucks of cyberware in their pinky finger.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:02
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I also like the idea that some spanner with a spanner can create a better gun in his basement than a billion-nuyen megacorp with corps of thousands of scientists and engineers on futuristic magical drugs to make them smarter and any resource they could possibly desire. Oh yeah, and that melee combat was pretty goddamn terrible (half the attacks, enemy gets to defend with a whole extra source of dice, you have to invest in strength which you could otherwise almost completely ignore) and yet every piece of Shadowrun art has some goddamn elf with a katana in it. Gort fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 21:32
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Tippis posted:Hämmerli: it's a light match-grade pistol — that's its thing. You get the extended range in a small package. I mean wtf, here is a gun that actually gives you mechanical advantages and you still reject it? It's not a trap weapon because the wielder signals that he's a man of precision and marksmanship. If you need more than 6 bullets (or indeed a larger calibre), learn how to aim. So you agree with us that there are trap options that are mechanically worse in every way than the alternatives.
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Jun 11, 2013 17:57
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Boogaleeboo posted:Half the things he listed are just needlessly pedantic. OK, so the other half are valid and we agree that there are guns that are just plain worse. We're not going to actually progress this any if we're just going to cherry-pick things from each other's arguments. quote:Melee is a trap, that gun bitching is quibbling over fake money that exists in arbitrary amounts and like a single die. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Boogaleeboo posted:Because they are crazy and stupid and sometimes violent? They aren't going to say "Mechanically the extra damage I get from this SS revolver doesn't ultimately equal the damage I could cause firing this semi-automatic twice an action". They will say "BIG. loving. HOLES!". And I guess that actually writing some rules that make both "lots of shots at lower damage" and "one big shot that makes a big hole" mechanically viable is just impossible and we shouldn't even try. I mean, what is the SS revolver in the core rulebook, one more damage? That's not BIG loving HOLES, that's pathetic. Although I guess your argument was that it's a gun for the borderline insane, so... I think that's the crux of my argument. I'd like to have lots of options that are both stylish and make a good amount of mechanical sense. The new player is going to hear, "Revolver that fires slowly but does a ton of damage" and think, "Great!", but then he's going to end up discovering that it's actually pretty disappointing and might get switched off on the game because his character feels weak. Though again, everything I just typed goes double for melee, but that's not a reason not to fix the smaller problems as well if they're basically the same thing. Lightning-fast elf ninja with sword sounds cool, but in gameplay it's really pretty poor. Gort fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 19:59
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Boogaleeboo posted:They aren't basically the same thing, one is talking about a single die here or there and the other is a completely non-viable playstyle. It is vastly different situations. One is you saying "This could be better" and a lot of people going "eh, I don't see a problem", and the other is something that inarguably does not work at all. It's a question of degree. If something is 10% bad and something else is 100% bad, fixing the 100% bad thing doesn't mean you shouldn't fix the 10%. And I don't really consider introducing a splatbook with a more powerful version to be a fix to the problem, because many people (such as myself) probably won't buy that book. I'd sooner see an errata to the original underpowered weapon rather than a splatbook introducing a better version. What would you do to fix melee?
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Jun 11, 2013 21:37
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Boogaleeboo posted:Only it's more "Fixing the .0001% bad thing that some people don't even recognize as being a real issue" to the thing that is totally wrong and doesn't work in the system. Well, quite. Kinda makes the original revolver look pretty drat bad, doesn't it? And it's still balanced with the other weapons in the core book? Sounds like the original revolver was a poor choice, or "trap" weapon. Especially since you can just chuck an upgrade at it and completely ignore the -2 recoil penalty. Boogaleeboo posted:I'd start with increasing weapon damage across the board on melee weapons and making melee attacks and actions simple, and I'd see how that worked and go from there. Whatever adds to the general idea of "You don't want this guy to get close to you" without leading into "Melee is a win button if you pull it off". I think perhaps they need to give agility more of a place in melee, since as it is trolls rule the roost as far as melee goes. Switching melee to simple actions is a definite yes, though. Probably well worth ditching the, "You defend with your skill+reaction" and just making defense the same as for firearms. Simplifies the rule system as well. Gort fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 22:16
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Boogaleeboo posted:Nah, all revolvers have the benefit of being able to switch to specialty ammo without ejecting bullets for one thing. Always cool to have one if you need to get weird with it. This benefit is tiny. I've played many games of Shadowrun and have never seen anyone care about it. Nor even heard anyone mention it on the Internet before. And since anyone with a smartlink (read: everyone) can eject their clip for free... is it even a benefit? quote:Just because they got *better* after nearly a decade doesn't mean the original items didn't have any merit. That's not a trap. "This is cool, but it could be better" is just refining a system. "This looks cool....but it's actually terrible and I've wasted my time" is a trap. Uh huh. quote:To a certain degree they should. You pay a lot to be a troll, and you are paying to be stronger and tougher than anyone else. That's sort of the point of trolls. And it's not just paying to be a troll, you then pay for every single one of those Attributes too. If you make a super buff troll to kick rear end, you absolutely should be the guy that makes everyone else stop in fear and go "poo poo, troll, just run and hope he gets distracted killing the slower folk". Being a troll costs more than being a Mystic Adept with a Mentor Spirit and a Way with an Aptitude in whatever the hell you want. It's a pretty big investment in character. It would be nice if the troll didn't just completely dominate the field of melee combat. It would be nice if you could invest in an elf or human and get different yet mechanically balanced results.
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Jun 11, 2013 22:40
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Ryuujin posted:I am confused. Talking about melee trolls and the importance of strength vs agility. Is this about 5e? If not I am super confused, I thought everyone considered strength and melee to be trap options? And thus trolls were trap options. I like trolls, and I like melee but in previous editions, or at least 4e, it seemed like Agility was king in combat, both melee and ranged. We're talking about a hypothetical change to 4e where melee combat was a simple action (among other general melee buffs). Max-strength trolls would dominate.
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Jun 11, 2013 22:52
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So, the justification we came up with for the existence of the FN-HAR is that it'll give you +2 to social rolls if you happen to encounter a nationalist Belgian gun-nut.
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Jun 12, 2013 12:38
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Tippis posted:…and that it's just how the world works: there are better and worse gun, and that the characters will not have (or need) the meta-game knowledge to sort them by game-mechanical stats. If a gun is clearly inferior, why wouldn't people know about it? Firearm performance is not some unknowable mystery, especially among Shadowrunners who tend to include some of the best shooters in the world.
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Jun 12, 2013 18:05
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Are they still using the dumb "make your character with A, B, C, D priority, but once the character's made you start using the karma system which is completely different" thing? It was really stupid working out that the most efficiently-made characters had alternating maximum and minimum attributes.
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Jun 20, 2013 19:20
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Bigass Moth posted:If you haven't heard about the new retarded Wireless Bonus system, check this post out: I really wish they'd just gone with, "Deckers have special nanites that just let them control machines even if the wireless is turned off".
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Jun 28, 2013 20:11
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ProfessorCirno posted:Oh no, I think a lot of people howling about these are being super dumb and nitpicky, and this is pretty far from a game ruiner. I just think some of the bonuses are kinda dumb. The bonuses are dumb. They've approached the, "Hackers can hack all your stuff" idea from the wrong end. They should have just said, "Turn your poo poo off if you like, hackers have drones that can establish a connection even if you do that", instead of, "Here are a bunch of dumb incentives to plug your knife into the Internet so a hacker can get you".
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Jul 1, 2013 22:20
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Hang on. The cyberlimb rules still haven't been cleaned up and are still pretty dependent on GM Fiat? How about hacking rules, have those at least been cleaned up?
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Jul 14, 2013 20:23
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Boogaleeboo posted:I look at sniper rifles, or assault cannons, an Enfield AS-7, or just an Enchanter casting Force 12 Indirect Combat spell bullets from his hold-out pistol straight out of character creation, and I have to ask: The sense where it's trivially easy to compare two rifles, while it's merely easy to compare spells and rifles.
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Jul 20, 2013 02:54
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Bigass Moth posted:1 body? RIP we hardly knew ye. And at 1 charisma, we don't care either. Also, did I read the rules wrong, or do you get zero penalties if you have 1 strength and wear enormous armour, only taking penalties if you put on a helmet or pick up a shield?
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Jul 21, 2013 19:14
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 11:59 |
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I am about to DM the first adventure in Sprawl Wilds - I've played SR since 2nd ed, but this is 5th. Anything that might trip me up, either in the adventure or in the rules? Also, anyone got a good 5th ed character sheet? The official one looks OK, but I find in SR it's best to have specific sheets for deckers, mages, adepts and mundanes.
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Jul 25, 2013 17:56
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