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mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Cichlidae posted:

[...]

If you'd like a more detailed discussion, you can post some pictures of examples and I'll work my engineering magic to try to fix them; we haven't done that in a few days.

How about this then. This is not in the US but I drive by it quite often, I think I used it once when I realized I had to turn back though it possibly was the next exit. It's at the top of a medium sized hill as coming from the NW so there's already some reduced visibility both ways. There are trees everywhere, the on/offramps slope downhill, and 130 km/h is legal speed on the highway.



To my non-traffic engineer rear end, there doesn't seem to be anything besides the lack of money/motivation preventing this from being improved, but I'd love to see your opinion.

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mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
A few things about right on red. First of all, it's awesome and I'm sad it isn't a thing in the EU. At least some places in Ukraine and Russia have it, so there is hope.

If introduced here, at least, it wouldn't make any difference to pedestrians. Very frequently you'll take off at an intersection at above-grandma pace to make a turn on green, only to find pedestrians in the middle of the street. You stop either way, but then you have to find their traffic light to see whether you can be mad at them or not. Simply, the pedestrians can also have a green light to cross when your light to go straight (parallel to them) or turn goes green. I actually kind of hate it, if it's green, it should be safe to go.


Here's an intersection that would be greatly improved with right on red:



See that right turn? If there's more than one car turning right, they'll block the lane going straight. Meanwhile it's red all the time while the cross traffic is green for no loving reason, because there's only one lane coming in from the left, but the road on the right is two lanes. Easy solution: just turn off that light and everyone would just go by the yield sign. But nope.



It's also almost impossible to make a left here, because the traffic coming from the opposite direction is heavy enough that only one car gets to legally make a left per cycle. What this causes is more people making a left from the second lane while the car in the left lane is yielding. Once the traffic is clear, they both take off, causing endless hilarity.

Ok and last one, since I get to observe this from my office window. Going South-North, there's one left-turn lane, and one straight/right lane. What I see happen here all the time is people getting into the left-only lane and then when the light to go straight turns green, race the other vehicle to merge back before the intersection. I was really quite shocked by how often this happens, because I almost never saw this behavior elsewhere.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

fishmech posted:

Wait I really don't understand this. Why is there both a yield sign AND a traffic light on the same thing? Does the light get turned off on a regular basis and then the Yield takes priority, or did someone just throw in some extra Yield signs?

I dont think this one gets turned off regularly, but some do, for example late at night. Whenever it's not working you're supposed to follow the Yield sign as a fallback. The other direction has priority.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
What if there's already somebody in the merge lane. Then you'd need a merge lane for your merge lane

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
Thanks for taking my dumbass question seriously :)

I think the whole thing looks weird because we don't have HOV lanes like that. Bus lanes are usually on the right.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Devor posted:

We had a busy road that was used for numerous bus routes, it would get really congested during rush hour, so they decided to have the buses run on the shoulder, as a marked bus lane. It worked really well for a few weeks until the pavement on the shoulder just completely gave up from the heavy loads - it turns out that it wasn't a full depth shoulder, only partial depth, and huge ruts were created in the asphalt.

The cheap solution became not-so-cheap when they had to fix all the shoulders.

Usually the bus lanes are normal lanes, not shoulders or anything, but they get ruined pretty quickly anyway, especially near the stoplights, sharp turns or bus stops. It's not like it's unexpected so I've no idea why they don't just drop a concrete plate in those places.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
I'm a fan of the tunnel solution like what they did in Düsseldorf:



So you can still get through without clogging up surface streets and creat a lot of pleasant public space. Prague has a huge road straight through the center that could benefit from such a makeover too.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
I just mocked this up for the roundabout thread in GBS, based on one I came across in Poland I think:



It's kind of like a turbo roundabout but with one entry lane? So if you want to do a u-turn, you have to chagne your lane three times. Really bizarre, I don't think I've come across one like this since. Does this type have a name? Is there any benefit over a normal one-lane roundabout?

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Devor posted:

$5 someone just implemented a turbo roundabout wrong

Lol yeah I suppose that's a possibility :)


I don't think it's the same one but I found something similar, but closer to a turbo.



So right away you have three lanes to get into: immediate exit, then the second exit, and the third exit (where the van is going). A minor benefit would be, I guess, more space for traffic to wait if an exit is blocked at the cost of much more space? Never seen one like this elsewhere either.

Also cool road marking there.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Or, cheaper, do what the Germans did and start a temporary heavy subsidy on local and regional transportation. For 9€ you can ride all you want for a day, including regional rail.

Trains that used to run half empty in the summer are now packed. Of course commuters hate it, but I’m convinced it’s keeping people off the Autobahn and airplanes.

While Sweden’s government are proposing to hand out a one-time payment to all auto owners, “to compensate for the increased expense of gas”.

For one thing, Germany’s subsidy is more equitable - not nearly everyone can afford a car but everyone can re-plan their holiday if it’s economically advantageous.

For another, it’s effective. If the plan is to combat the global cost increase, the best way is to actually reduce demand on petroleum. While Sweden’s approach is counterproductive in that it locks consumers into driving an auto.
Yeah I looked into buying those but it's not that useful for a tourist since it's local and some regional transport only as you mention. Not to mention that one night in a hotel would cost more than a tank of gas even at current prices.

I like the idea though and would like to see some analysis of the results, how much of that ridership is new induced demand.

I haven't heard of Sweden's "solution" before but that's pretty :lmao:. We got a slight reduction in fuel taxes which is below the variation you see from one pump to another so does nothing other than reduce tax revenue.

German cities are already pretty high density and walkable, at some point you still need to go farther than you can reasonably walk though.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Lead out in cuffs posted:

What car can you fuel, maintain, insure, and cover depreciation/loan payments on for less than $100 a month? (Or even $200 or $300 a month?)


$600 to buy
$50 to fill up even at current prices
$20 liability insurance
Some blood and sweat to maintain :v:

I WFH and could walk to the stores but usually just stop by whenever I need to drive somewhere. I think if you actually had to commute across the city daily, you'd burn way more fuel than that though. Completely car-free is possible, and people do it, but IMO it's a significant sacrifice. Yes you can get by train or bus almost everywhere but jeez it's a huge pain in the rear end if it's not another major city or if you need to carry lot's of stuff.


This is barely traffic engineering related though. I do hope that we can reduce the number of car trips people must make so that when you really need to, it's not stuck in traffic and the road network can be kept reasonably sized.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

VictualSquid posted:

Well, judging by the memery around Germany's recent 9€ ticket the most important use of a fare system is to keep the inner city poors out of the resort towns.

Anyways, the experiment (of allowing county wide travel on slow trains for 9€ per month) was immensely successful for practically everybody.
With the only resistance to extending the program coming from people who obviously just hate poor people. And paper pushers who have their job depend on the confusing ticketing borders between transit authorities.
Is there a study of the results of that experiment? I'd really like to see some concrete outcomes rather than just "oh some trains were crowded" stuff. Like change in vehicle-km driven, # of public transit trips, etc. Personally it's never the cost of public transport that's stopping me.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
It's probably also worth noting that the Dutch drive a shitload of kms, despite being in a tiny-rear end country and all the constant talk about bikes and canals


https://www.odyssee-mure.eu/publications/efficiency-by-sector/transport/distance-travelled-by-car.html

Just looking at this chart and pulling the correlations out of my rear end, I'd say that the biggest predictors is the income and fuel prices and maybe urbanization.

You can mouse-over the Netherlands in the legend and it'll highlight the line
vvv

mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Oct 2, 2022

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Entropist posted:

I have a car in the Netherlands too and it's actually great for driving, because there are so many alternatives. People only drive if there is a good reason to, which makes traffic not so bad. The road system is quite well designed with good separation of functions, and maintained much better than in the neighbouring countries. The highways have nice long exits/entrances, clear signage and also dynamic matrix signs everywhere. People always talk about the German autobahn system but it looks like an outdated mess in comparison (at least in the west), the only advantage is that you can drive fast. And let's not even talk about Belgian roads.

I don't actually drive that often though, maybe a few times a month at most, because for most types of trips there are better alternatives.
I've never been to the Netherlands but I feel like it's pretty similar to most EU countries, just with more bikes and slightly better everything everything else, but not in a way that it fundamentally changes everything.

Some more interesting stuff I dug up:

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com...54439e7bc4f411f

So NL isn't significantly different from even Germany or France in terms of annual distance driven, or number of trips. All the bikes seemed to eliminate public transport usage lol.

Anyway, as a huge car nerd, I'm all for bikes and trains and whatever will get most people off the roads. It's good for the environment and good for me :troll:

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
No, it's not a bad thing, though usually bikes are sold as being great because they're replacing car trips. And I assume they still have to run the buses and trams and for people who can't bike or those medium-length trip, so how much is actually saved.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
Of course, there's only so much we can infer from that data. Almost certainly some car trips were also substituted, but unless the Netherlands were way out compared to its peers, probably not that many.

I couldn't find much data on per-capita public transport spending unfortunately, only this article below (it's usually combined with all transportation spending). Anyway, usually you can't cut down on frequency too much before it becomes useless, nobody's going to rely on a bus that's only scheduled once an hour. Or if more people take it when it's rainy, you have to run the same schedule on sunny days as well.
I tried plopping down some routes in google maps, and usually most connections seem to be every 10-15 minutes, with some buses every 30 minutes. Pretty similar to other countries, but that's definitely not hard data.
https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2011/08/provincial-expenditure-on-public-transport-doubled-since-2005

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
So I had to go back to see what's the background there was

devicenull posted:

Their masterpiece is now complete


lol.

We have the same poo poo nearby, about a mile long, wide-rear end road with no parking, trees, bike lanes, anything. A few years later someone got sufficiently mad so they tore up the streets every 100m or so to make these horrid speed bumps. They're deceptively tall and will easily cause normal ride height cars to scrape.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Fuschia tude posted:

That's a... speed bump? It looks like a cobblestone crosswalk :psyduck:

Yeah not technically a "speed bump", Devor is right of course. But just as annoying if not more so.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
No real question, just lol

Cugel the Clever posted:

Childrens' school crossing guard: "This recently widened road regularly sees sociopathic/negligent drivers roaring through. If common sense infrastructural improvements aren't made, one of them's going to murder a kid right in front of me."
City Traffic Safety Committee: "Is the occasional child's life so much to pay for maximized traffic flow?"
https://twitter.com/LoganTMillsap/status/1583247749062852612

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

euros being in denial that car-centric sprawl exists even in enlightened evropa will never be not funny

you know, i have a sneaking suspicion that you don't really know what you're talking about and are simply making kneejerk aesthetic criticisms because you feel called out by someone criticizing a thing you agreed with

i agree with you that its bad! i just pointed out the tweet is whiny and wrong. if you also want to be whiny and wrong that is not my responsibility
Have.. you actually been around Europe? Things obviously vary from country to country (see chart below) but nothing is even remotely on the same level as North America, generally you leave the city limits and you're driving through fields. Maybe the Duisburg-Essen-Dortmund area for the type of endless suburbanish development, but it's pretty small all things considered. Downtown Dortmund isn't a giant parking lot, and you can get to Duisburg by train in 35 minutes.



Of course building a ring road around downtown didn't turn it into a parking lot single-handedly so that guy is definitely overselling it but it was all part of the same trend of pushing suburban development.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Crankit posted:

What are the best ways places can reduce car trips for dropping kids off at school?
Other than living close enough that they can walk or bike? Public transport, but that again would require reasonable density to be feasible.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

i dont know why you think this chart you posted disagrees with me when it shows, on average, half or more modal share is automotive trips
Well since you said something like smug europeans are in denial that car sprawl exists, the only way to strictly disagree that would be to claim that there's 0 car-centric sprawl. That's hardly possible to prove but the chart shows that car dependency is much, much lower overall. The 50% of car trips also don't prove the "car-centric sprawl". People use cars in cities and rural areas too.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
^^^^
EU-wide rail is kind of sucks and is a pain in the rear end but it seems they're working on trying to improve that at least

Entropist posted:

Amsterdam is one of the worst cycling cities in the Netherlands, maybe only The Hague and Rotterdam are behind. Many paths are way too narrow, poorly maintained and they fail at clearing the snow off them in winter. They can't even afford a cycling bridge to the north. There's also a bunch of car sewers crossing the center that hold up cyclists and pollute the place. Until this week the central station had no proper bicycle parking. No idea why all the international youtubers are so obsessed with it, your average small town in Drenthe or Zeeland has better cycling infrastructure.

Nobody knows what the gently caress Drenthe is but Amsterdam is relatable for a normal person

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
The Hong Kong <-> Macu Turbojet ferries are pretty sweet and fast. No cars or any other cargo though and a ticket costs like $20. Similar distance to Helsinki <-> Tallin too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAZs9r_gzXY

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
Or just drive faster to avoid getting stuck on them

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

Haifisch posted:

I had to google it to figure out what the setup even is, since the angle+lack of signs in the pic isn't very useful & my american rear end has never seen one before. Apparently the idea is that only one direction of traffic at a time can go through these, so people turning onto slower streets are forced to slow down and possibly wait. People have also gotten semi trucks through without issue, so they're not that tight of a fit.

I also found people theorizing that the car in this specific pic reversed onto it, which makes it an even dumber move than I expected.

I haven't seen something like this specifically, but some other attempts to narrow the road artificially. They're wide enough that it does nothing to slow me down unless there's traffic in the opposite direction, when you might have to stop. Better than speed bumps I guess?

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Speed limits aren't intended to be a suggested speed, right?

I consider them to be the minimum

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mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
The Cycle Super-Highway seems nice but looking at the map (as I'm not familiar with Sydney) I'm wondering if it's really going to move the needle. Yes, cycle paths that lead to nowhere are a problem, but if you build one along a highway, are people suddenly going to ride an hour into the city? Like walking, it'd need a certain level of density to be feasible.

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