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Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
As a Canadian cyclist, who lives in Ottawa at that (notoriously cold/snowy). I can tell you it is definitely possible to bike year round. I personally don't because you have to be a tough son of a bitch, and I would also fear for my life since cars don't look for bikes in the winter.
However, if your route to the bus station isn't high traffic, it is definitely doable. I'm sure plenty of posters in the bike commuting mega thread can help you out if you are serious about it.

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Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

freehotel posted:

Proposed Budget: $15-20K Canadian, prefer to stay on the lower side
New or Used: New/Used, it seems the used cars in the types I am looking at are so close in price that I should probably go new.
Body Style: 4 door sedan
How will you be using the car?: Daily driver, commute maybe 40K+ or so per day, occasional longer trips
Do you prefer a luxury vehicle with all the gizmos?: No, if the new options are there I will look at them but they are not the decider
What aspects are most important to you?: Initial price, cost of ownership/maintenance, reliability and safety are all >>>> than cool factor or fun-to-drive

First off - I freely admit that I know very little about cars. I'm looking for a reliable car that will last a long time. At this price point I seem to be looking between the 2013 versions of:

Hyundai Accent
Subaru Impreza
Chevrolet Sonic
Dodge Dart
Ford Fiesta

Any of these that are highly recommended or that I should initially stay away from? With MSRPs in the 15-18K range, what are my chances for negotiating below that?

I currently drive a Fiesta and I honestly love everything about it. Everything about it feels right. It handles great, I get between 35 and 42 MPG... All the time (you will not get near that in the other 3 you listed) . Driving position is very adjustable, gauges are brilliant, very low road noise, zero rattles. I live in Ottawa and it was great in the snow, what with it being so light and having slim tires.

As you may have gathered. I like the thing a lot. I've had a very significant increase in income since I bought it 1.25 years and 28k km ago, and I have been having a lot of trouble finding a car I WANT to replace it with, which is why I lurk this thread. I think I might not replace it at all.

On another note Honda has some pretty solid incentives going on right now. My girlfriends parents got a fairly loaded 2013 civic for $25k. Freight and taxes in. I'm sure you could do a bit better on a "base" model (the civic doesn't come with a stripper trim any more so it comes with quite a bit). The fit is a really solid car as well, but I don't have numbers on that.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

The Vikings posted:

Hey, that's some pretty helpful info and I was wondering if you had a similar infodump on the Honda CRV? We've been looking for a small SUV for a while and after test driving the Rav4, CRV, Forester, and Escape, have found that we like the CRV the best. I'm looking at the 2WD EX model. I've been looking at the USAA car buying thing, which gives me a low price of $22,571 + fees (2,277.00 from the DMV website) which seems ok. We're near LA if that matters.

If anyone sees a big flaw in my thinking, here's the standard template:

Proposed Budget: <25k
New or Used: New
Body Style: small SUV
How will you be using the car?: (Do you tow things? Haul more than 5 people on a regular basis? Have a super long commute? How are you going to use this vehicle?
Do you prefer a luxury vehicle with all the gizmos?)
regular camping, skiing trips with 2-4 people, short commute, phone connectivity for audio
What aspects are most important to you? (e.g. reliability, cost of ownership/maintenance, import/domestic, MPG, size, style) Size (upgrading from a sedan which is too small for our trips) Long-term costs, reliability, MPG, interior features

Just buy a roof rack.

More seriously.. If you are looking at cross overs, you are doing yourself a disservice not testing the Mazda CX-5.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

crimedog posted:

New
Budget: ~$15k*
Body Style: Compact Sedan. I'm open to hatchbacks, but I like the sedan style better.
How will you be using the car?: Daily driver. 12 mile round trip to work. Single guy so it's usually just me in the car. No access to a garage or covered parking. I live in Indianapolis and I'm never in traffic unless I go into Chicago.
What aspects are most important to you?: reliability, cost of ownership/maintenance, fun to drive, music. I want to be able to charge my phone and play music from it, just an AUX input is fine. I rarely use navigation, even on road trips.

I'm looking at the Chevy Sonic, Ford Fiesta, Kia Rio, and Hyundai Accent in that order. Do you guys have a preference? .
As a Fiesta owner I can tell you the base sound system is pretty darn good. It is the only one at that price point where you will have full bluetooth/usb/Ipod functionality (it was in 2012 when I bought mine anyway), and gets significantly better fuel economy than the other 3.
The manual transmission on it is quite good as well.

I'm up to about 30k on mine without a single problem.

That said a lot of people do like the sonic. I test drove them both and I found the fiesta preferable in every single way, but to each their own.

The fiesta is meant to be a hatch and I find the sedan absolutely hideous from the side. And in cars these size you really need to utilise the space you've got. Get the hatch then laugh at friends /relatives when you transport poo poo they could never dream of fitting in their large sedans.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Throatwarbler posted:

It's not really even that. Most hatchback versions of cars are significantly shorter overall than the sedan version and don't really have much advantage in terms of overall space. The only advantage really is maybe easier parking due to shorter length and carrying over-sized items. How often do you really carry oversized items anyway? I think Car Forum posters just like hatchbacks and wagons ironically.

You must be on drugs.

If you are talking about moving around only suit cases with people in the back seat, maybe it is possible a sedan might hold more than its hatch back variant.

But consider this. I have moved dozens of things in my Fiesta that I could never in a million years fit in my old 300c. The 300c, if you need reminding, is a lot freaking bigger than a Fiesta. Could I put more water in the trunk of the 300? Oh god yes. Problem is, I was moving things like dogs, plants, pre-assembled furniture, 50' TVS, etc.

Imagine a world where you never really have to think (within reason) whether or not something will fit in your car. Your line of thought is literally, "Well this is a bit big. I'll put the seats down."

I will never buy another car without a hatch.. Unless I end up owning more than one car at a time.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

CaseFace McGee posted:

I will be test driving a Mazda 3 4door tomorrow afternoon. 2007, 53k miles, stick with the original clutch, 2.3 engine, purple :gay:. I know to look for rust in the wheel wells, but is there anything else that I should look for or ask about?

Also, how is the cost of ownership for a Mazda 3? I am no longer looking at Mini because it requires run-flat tires and high octane fuel, which brings up cost of ownership. How does Mazda compare for typical parts costs, etc?

Mazdas are generally quite reliable and cheap to maintain, but they are giant rust buckets.

If you have seasons where you live that will be your biggest concern looking at a used one.

Edit: I somehow completely missed you mention rust in your post. Whoops!

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

plushpuffin posted:


How will you be using the car?: I have a girlfriend but I live alone. I usually have 0 to 2 passengers and I usually only have a few bags of groceries. My commute to work is 4 blocks (2 minutes). My immediate family is only 3 miles away. I very rarely travel anywhere outside of my town..

Why are you buying a car at all? You can't walk 4 blocks to work? Wtf

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

plushpuffin posted:

I'm in the suburbs of Buffalo, and 3,000+ miles per year is obviously more travel than ~260 round trips to work.

I'm just going based off what you provided. A 10 minute walk to work doesn't really warrant driving. You go on to state that your parents are walking (easier to bike or bus at that distance though) as well. Then you top it off with "I don't really leave town or go far away at all".

It sounds like your money is burning a hole in your pocket and that is why you want to buy a car.

I'm not trolling. You should honestly try not using your car for a few weeks and determine if you actually need it at all. If your "uses" were misleading I apologise, but your situation sounds a lot like mine.
I do not use my car at all except for driving up to the mountains and visiting all my family who are several hours away. Neither of these are issues for you, so I have a hard time seeing why you want to drop 25k + all the associated costs just cause.
Unless you really hate walking or something?

For user requested content: get something with a hatch. 18thing the Prius recommendations as they really do well just putting around town.

Math You fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Feb 4, 2014

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

plushpuffin posted:

Well, my girlfriend is twenty minutes away by car and I see her several times a week, depending on the grocery store and other stores I visit it's a two to ten minute drive, and my neighborhood is boxed in by four main thoroughfares which makes it difficult to get anywhere outside of it on foot. I appreciate that you're trying to help, but my town isn't that great for walking anywhere outside of residential areas.

That sounds like pretty crappy city planning. I totally understand now. I also feel really spoiled being able to walk to work, 3 different shopping centers and like 20 restaurants living in burbs.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

ZenMastaT posted:

Proposed Budget: 15-20k
New or Used: Used
Body Style: Sedan preferred, hatchback, wagon and coupe would all be acceptable though.
How will you be using the car?: No wife, no kids, no pets. Rarely travel with more than 1 other person in the car but I do haul equipment for my job occasionally so some kind of back seat is preferred. My commute varies wildly, sometimes it is ~10mi roundtrip and other times I drive 200 miles in one day. I'm in rush hour traffic quite a bit. I also occasionally use my car as a mobile office, and am sometimes in it for 8 hours or so in a day parked in a parking lot so a comfortable passenger seat with a lot of foot room is nice.
What aspects are most important to you? My current car is an '07 BMW 335i, 6MT. It's great and I love it but maintenance costs are starting to climb. It's going to need a new clutch in the next year or so, most likely, and that is $1800. It's also about 1-2k away from a service inspection. I just spent $2500 on it the last two weeks replacing ignition coils, head light control unit and passenger seat weight sensor, plus other incidentals. I'd like a car that doesn't cost quite so much to maintain but is still fun to drive. Since I spend so much time in my car I like it to be a nice place. I don't need navigation and I now see the strong downside of adaptive self leveling headlamps and other such high tech gizmos but an AUX input and bluetooth for my phone would be nice. Mainly I want something cheaper that won't look so incredibly out of place at a construction site but at the same time won't make me want to kill myself coming from a 335i. In the past two weeks I've driven a Jetta wagon and a 2014 Corolla as rentals and, while they seem like ok cars, they just make a bunch of noise and don't do anything if you stamp on the gas. Plus they roll like ships in a heavy sea compared to the BMW.

I've owned a Subaru Legacy GT in the past and, if not for the current style cues, would be strongly considering going back to it. A WRX seems nice as well, although a little primitive. I love the look and idea of the BRZ but I don't know if it's big enough in the trunk to work for my needs. I'm not opposed to American cars but don't know of any that provide all the features I'm looking for (namely, drivability, some measure of power, fairly nice interior, reliability). I can't afford to be stranded or super late to a site - while my BMW has been expensive to maintain it has never actually failed to start, which I appreciate. I'm not married to the idea of sticking with a manual transmission but it would be nice. Mainly I want to know what other options exist now that I should test drive or whether it would be smarter to just stick it out through the next couple thousand in repairs and ride the car until it starts becoming actually unreliable.

Ford Focus/Fusion. Mazda 3/6.
The Fords can both be had with 270hp and a load of torque. The Focus would be Focus st in this spec which is a legitimate sports car, the Fusion much more subtle but with some get up and go.
Neither of the Mazdas have fast specs so far this generation, but are a blast to drive. If I were an idiot who favoured sedans over hatches I would probably have a 6 right now myself.

All four can be had with somewhat luxurious interiors.. For the price point.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Just Chompin' posted:

What do you guys think of the Fiat 500 Abarth?

Make sure you can live with the visibility.. I certainly couldn't. Other than that, the thing is an absolute hoot.

But really you should just get a Fiesta ST. The only thing that the Abarth has over the fiesta is the awesome sound it makes.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Just Chompin' posted:

What do you guys think of the Fiat 500 Abarth?

You also might want to drop by The Hot Hatch Discussion thread. There are a whole bunch of people who actually own small turbo hatches including the Abarth.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
If you are having trouble in snow AWD is the loving worst thing you could throw at the problem. All you're gonna accomplish is getting up to speeds your lovely all seasons cannot safely stop or manoeuvre at.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Hi car goons,

I have a decent idea of what I want (a fuckin' wagon), but since I can't get that I'm instead looking at small SUVs. God have mercy on my soul.

Proposed Budget: 25-45k CAD :canada:
New or Used: New. I am a big goober and am repair-phobic.
Body Style: Small SUV
How will you be using the car?: Since COVID most of my travel has been with a canoe on the roof. Something with not-poo poo factory rails and crossbars is a must.
I need a hitch for my bike rack, so factory hitch is preferred, but really as long as it doesn't have a dumb exhaust layout that will prevent me from adding one after market, I'm good. both 1.5 and 2inch receivers work for me.
What aspects are most important to you? Reliability, cost of ownership, just not having to worry about the loving thing in general, size*, driving dynamics (lol)

*Size is my big limiter. I currently have a ford focus hatch and I've got all of my bikes, boats and other fixins laid about the garage without tons of wiggle room either in length or height, and don't want to have to worry about what order my cars are in the driveway.
To this end, I would like any car to be under 176in long, and under 64in tall.

I currently have the three following models in my sights: Subaru Crosstrek, Mazda CX-30, BMW X1

My concerns with the beamer and Subaru would be cost over ownership and reliability, but otherwise seem pretty up there as to what I'm looking for. I'm kind of gravitating to the CX-30 though, as it's the closest to matching the footprint of my Focus and everyone in AI seems to love Mazda.
Curious about the CX-30 though. Does it stand on its own or is "why would you buy the CX-30 when you could get the CX-5" type of situation?

Of course. Please also let me know if something is flying under my radar and TIA

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Yeah I have to admit I don't really want an SUV at all. I could get another hatchback but I'm not particularly happy to add ugly rear end aftermarket crossbars to a brand new car, and wouldn't mind having a bit more cargo space than the focus. I could budge more on length than height. I might have to look more at the sportwagen but it appears I missed the chance to get one new in my area.

A lot of these "small SUVs" don't even have proper OEM crossbars and hitches available. What the gently caress is the point of them?

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Guinness posted:

I was just at the Mazda dealership this past weekend, and test drove a CX-5 turbo to confirm what I've been reading, and it blows away the competition in the segment IMO. I'm likely to pick one up this week, got some pretty good initial offers on the Signature trim.

The CX-30 is equally nice and has the same turbo option, though it is significantly smaller in interior/cargo space and loses a couple lux options in top trim. But like was said, it costs almost what a CX-5 does especially actual transaction price not just MSRP. I also wish it had less plastic cladding, it makes an otherwise very premium vehicle look cheaper.

The CX-5 is bigger than the CX-30, but not that much bigger, and on American roads it's still small compared to many vehicles. And it's one of the smaller options in the segment. I also went and drove a RAV-4 Hybrid, and while it is 2 inches longer/taller than the CX-5 it feels quite a bit bigger from the driver's seat due to the seating position, visibility, floaty suspension, less precise steering, etc. It does have a bit more cargo room, though.

I also looked into installing a hitch on the CX-5 and it is trivially easy, and you can buy a Class III 2" receiver on etrailer.com for under $200 and many reviews saying it takes only an hour to install at home in your driveway with hand tools. Most of the cars sitting on the lot also had the roof rack base bars already installed, would just need the crossbars which have an OEM option for like $200.

If the design choices of the CX-30 is the direction Mazda is heading, I'm looking forward to the CX-50 in a couple years with its rumored longitudinal inline 6 and RWD-based architecture. But I can't wait until 2023/24.

I've driven the Crosstrek numerous times before, and while it's certainly a fine car for what it is, it is a gutless boring appliance. If they dropped a turbo motor in there and ditched the CVT maybe we can talk, but until then it's very bland and also not very big inside. If you're going to be hauling some real equipment the lack of power is going to be very noticeable even if you aren't an enthusiast.

Thanks.. Valuable feedback. Just in build and price for the CX-30 I'm immediately disappointed in how it doesn't really have any "utility" options. The OEM crossbars are a clear after thought and with a capacity of only 100lbs I'd be worried about the stresses a 16ft canoe might put on it in wind / at highway speeds.

At some point I'll just need to book test drives and try shoving a few cars into my garage to see what will actually work.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

incogneato posted:

I understand wanting roof rails to come standard, but why do you need factory crossbars also? The cost of some Thule Aeroblades or whatever seems pretty small if it opens up a bunch more car options for you. I admit that I'm not super knowledgeable about crossbars, though, so there may be some aspect I'm missing.

I can tell you that the 4Runner's optional oem crossbars have some not-so-great reviews on various forums. It was enough to make us keep our ancient but workable Yakima ones instead. So it's not just small crossovers that have underwhelming factory options.

Yeah. I mostly just want rails and would research from there, but it seems like a lot of the SUVs have really small ones which may limit compatibility. My thinking is (and perhaps I am wrong) a decent OEM option is an indicator that I won't need to attach anything to the body, or remove the rubber strips from the roof.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Yeah I went down the rabbit hole some and realized I was pretty ill informed on the whole rack thing. Many thanks to the posters who got me back on the right track.

Don't think I'll need to seriously look at a car until post COVID when we see if there's a shift in office culture and more work from home. Guess I should use that time to decide if I want a car or an SUV instead of trying to half rear end both.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Just how anemic is the Crosstrek? The post up thread of the guy saying he couldn't maintain interstate speeds with a kayak on the roof struck me as close to impossible.

I move my 16ft canoe on my Focus and if it didn't project directly in my field of view I might forget it's there, if there's not a stiff crosswind, anyway.

Like.. does it strain to go up 5 percent grades? The descriptions I'm hearing remind me of my wife's old CRV (1999 model, 12 years old at the time). With 4 people in that car there were a few times I didn't think we'd get up a hill. The closest modern vehicle to it I've driven was a rental kicks, which was super loving slow but never led me to believe I'd kill it.

Separate discussion but what loving rear end in a top hat decided that piece of poo poo should be in a rental fleet? The range is absolutely pathetic and didn't even make my 300 (highway) mile trip on a full tank. Are they trying to acclimatize us to EVs? :thunk:

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Fyi your dealership sells you the extended warranty from the manufacturer, and the manufacturer similarly pays for any and all work carried out under said warranty.
The reason they push the warranties so hard on that end is because they charge you double (or more) what they cost.
However, if you can demonstrate you know the score, they'll generally sell one to you for a couple hundred bucks of profit.

The last car I bought was a Ford in 2015. I paid $1000CAD for the nearly $2k extended warranty. (And got nothing out of it. There was one repair done under warranty and it was covered by the standard one)

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I'm trying to buy a Sienna (lol), and one of the dealers I've pinged suggested they will be selling a shuttle vehicle in the spec I was looking for with about 10k miles.
I need to clarify if it was also used for demos but I'm thinking this is about as good of a "lightly used" offering I am going to get in this market.

For perspective, all of the dealerships are either turning people away outright, or putting people on a waitlist to put in an order at some later date.

I'm feeling like I should jump on this as long as they aren't going to price it above MSRP or something dumb. Thoughts?

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Wasn't really aware that a shuttle would be abused. My experience with shuttle drivers is they are all retirees who drive really slow

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I've been messaging some more rural Toyota dealerships in the hopes of maybe getting onto a shorter order list and I've had some wildly different stories told.

Basically from "give us a scan of your driver's license, and tell us what you want. We'll contact you when ordering opens again but we don't know when that will be or how long it'll take once your order is placed"

To: "$500 deposit, 6-8 months for delivery"

Second one is extreme and I think the dealership's website might be compromised because it came from a private email!.. but there is a pretty big spread in what they are saying regardless. Many say "place an order" but with what the less optimistic dealerships have been telling me, I'm sceptical.

Anyone have some insight into the current state of affairs when ordering a new Toyota?

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

ethanol posted:

All Toyota dealers will put you on a waitlist for a preallocated vehicle. You can call around constantly every day and try to find a buyer backing out on a new delivery or something in transit and you’ll get a vehicle much faster otherwise the $500 deposit and waiting for it to be built is the only option. This method took me about a month to find a new vehicle .

The better dealers will show you on their desktop computer the entire list of preallocated vehicles and their build week.

You don’t actually order vehicles to spec at Toyota, you decide your options and they’ll find the closest match in their pre allocated system. It’s worth checking more than one dealer because they all have different lists.

A trick with the preallocated list (Toyota specific): if there is a letter in the last 6 digits of the vin they have, the vehicle is not built yet and can still be subject to delays. If there are no letters in the last six digits of the vin then the vehicle is already built and will arrive much faster

Thanks. Exactly what I was looking for!

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

ethanol posted:

A trick with the preallocated list (Toyota specific): if there is a letter in the last 6 digits of the vin they have, the vehicle is not built yet and can still be subject to delays. If there are no letters in the last six digits of the vin then the vehicle is already built and will arrive much faster

One more question.. if the dealership doesn't have any more pre-allocated units (which none of them seem to), does it matter from which dealership I place the order? Ex. Does it matter if I'm the 100th person to make an order at dealership A VS 20th at dealership B if both are just sending in a blank request to Toyota?

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
With the Sienna being an indeterminate order.. I was wondering if it might be worth looking at a Pacifica PHEV. With the :canada: federal rebates the pinnacle is pretty close in cost but I'm pretty sketched out by the reliability of FCA vehicles.

Is the Pacifica PHEV a stand out or are my reservations justified?

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
There was recently like a whole page in either this thread or new car thread about people's Subarus failing spectacularly at under 100k miles.

Get a Mazda 3. "I want a reliable Japanese car but cool", doesn't leave too many other options imo

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I had a rental kicks a few years back and it definitely has way less room than a 3 hatch. What I remember most about it was its laughably small gas tank.
It managed like 3.5hrs on the highway before I had to fuel it. Well under 400km.

I'm usually okay with a smaller tank, but what the gently caress? Basically makes it impossible to complete ANY decent day of driving on a single tank. If I took it camping I'd probably have to bring a few cans of gas with me.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Sounds to me like the guy is a prick and you should have told him to eat your rear end in a top hat.
Seems like some dealers are a little high on their leverage and are forgetting they will still need to sell cars when poo poo cools down. I had one dealer offer me 1/3 the trade in value of my car.. I immediately got up and walked right the gently caress out the door. Won't ever set foot there again.

In my experience Toyota dealerships around me had no problem putting me on a list but it's still a long wait with no way for them to give a remotely accurate estimate.

Math You fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Jul 29, 2022

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
No joke I might possibly have a 2015 Focus hatch with 115k km to sell in a couple weeks. No issues other than it's gonna need new all seasons this summer, and possibly rear brakes in the next 12 months. I'm in Ottawa.

"Might" means it is dependent on what the dealer ends up offering me for trade in when my van is delivered.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
So I'm kind of blown away right now. I put down deposits on a Sienna and (after finding out what a joke that was) a Pacifica Hybrid in July.
Pacifica came in and I went into the dealership today expecting to have to work to not get screwed more than I had been by the 15% increase between 22 and 23 model years.. My plan basically boiled down to demanding a fair trade in value for the Focus or I'd deny them the trade in, financing or any extras.

Got there, got myself hyped up, and they had managed to secure 5k in price protection from Chrysler, increased the trade in offer for my car, and then took 1k off the hood to keep the cost the same even though financing went up a point and a half. They absolutely did not need to do that and if I walked away they would have sold it at MRSP in a heartbeat.

Math You fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Mar 4, 2023

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Just get a minivan, coward!

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Shipon posted:

the amount of people who buy 90k trucks while calling themselves "working class" but think someone buying a macan is a bougie is lol

Then they have a giant poo poo fit and yap constantly about insurrection because gas is too expensive. Remember back in the late aughts when people bought fuel efficient cars instead of screaming about freedom from their big stupid loving TRUCKS?

They were out frivolously using gas to poo poo up overpasses waving "gently caress Trudeau" flags the other day because our carbon tax went up 3c a liter.

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Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Divorce your wife and pick up a new one in your new minivan

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