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In the loosest sense of the word, I am a lawyer. I am licesned to practice law, but I do not have a job as an attorney and probably never will. As the Law thread in A/T proper has noted, bar membership and law school admissions grow much much faster than the need for legal services. At my swearing in ceremony, a speaker (proudly) told us that bar membership was up 30% over the last 5 years. https://www.bls.gov tells us that legal services will grow at 16% over the next decade. I preface with this because the legal job market is not broken just because of the recession. The recession made things worse, but when the recession ends, the job market for lawyers will remain very, very poor. So, I need a new profession. I'd like the accountants out there to tell me their views of that profession. I've applied to a well regarded state school. What is the job market like? bls says that it is good, and very good for a CPA, but I want to hear from real people. I expect hiring is poor right now, but is accounting a field that is as broken as law and BLS just didn't catch it? The jobs that left - are they expected to come back? Beyond the threshold employment issue, what is an actual day as an accountant like? Do you enjoy it? I expect my math skills are poor from lack of practice, but I'm sure I can get them back. I got a 670 on the math portion of the SAT. I imagine that's enough innate ability to learn the necessary math skills for accounting? Is there any "crossover" between law and accounting such that having the law degree would be beneficial in an accounting career? I've spoken to a few people about this and want to get more input.
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Nov 13, 2009 21:41
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I'm not an accounting major, but I took the basic accounting courses that were required for my business degree, and let me assure you that the math involved in these courses was just a step above high school algebra. You may have to take statistics as part of the business program, but checking the course prereqs at my college, no more math is needed for any ACC course. I'm a programmer and I have to say that the accounting courses were the dullest, easiest classes I've ever taken. I skipped nearly every class and came into the tests asked to balance this budget or preform some calculation on this set of numbers, and provided that I knew what the vocabulary word the prof threw at me was, the actual calculations were stupidly easy. Talking to the accounting majors who, presumably, like this kind of stuff, the classes get a bit harder and more rewarding, and everyone I've talked to wants to be a CPA, so it would seem that you'll be in luck.
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Nov 13, 2009 23:17
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I should not that I've taken Financial I and Managerial I in college. My undergraduate degree is in business. I have forgotten everything about it, though, so I imagine I'd need to start over or at least do some self study before getting into the upper level courses. Technically, I don't even need an accounting degree. I just need 36 credits of upper level accounting.
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Nov 13, 2009 23:20
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I find accounting to be one of the dullest things the world has known. I despise it. I think you should take at least one upper level accounting class before deciding you want to do this as a career. Some of the accounting classes at my school are ridiculously loving difficult compared to most any other class, but we also have the highest CPA pass rate in Texas.
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Nov 13, 2009 23:27
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The following is completely anecdotal, but there's a reason accounting is considered a soul-sucking profession. Whether or not you can take that on top of crippling law school debt is for you to decide, I suppose. Back in the 70s, my dad graduated with a BA in accounting. He promptly got a job as a junior at an accounting firm, and quit within 6 months after realizing he wanted to shoot himself in the head every day at work. I had a girlfriend who graduated in 2007 and went to work for KPMG, one of the Big Four. She also quit after about 6 months because she said every one of her coworkers were the most boring people in the world and that they were usually either functional alcoholics or had lost the will to live. I've read the law school megathread, so I know about "no jobs die alone", but the saying for accounting might go something like "poo poo job die unhappy". (Again, the above is completely anecdotal and I'm sure there are plenty of happy CPAs, but its not for everyone.)
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Nov 13, 2009 23:45
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The day of an accountant really depends where you work... Do you want to work public or private? For the government? Do you want to work for big firm or small firm? There is a lot of opportunities for an accounting major to choose from. The thing about accounting is companies still need them regardless of the economy. Business will always need financial statements and will still need to file tax returns regardless. Also release of new financial regulations and tax laws also help keep the job in demand. I don't think you need to be great with math to be an accountant just good with working with numbers. You'll be spending a lot of time with Excel and using a calculator. As far as legal/accounting this would help if you got into Merger/acquisitions and will also show employers that you hopefully know how to do research and understand legal terms which will probably come up a lot in your job (tax laws,financial regs, etc.). I like my job but I think it really depends on where you work. I work for a small firm so I do different things everyday. One day I could be filing a return for a NFL player the next day I researching whether a companies racecars are advertising expense, or a partner draw. bleh fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 14, 2009 |
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Nov 14, 2009 00:53
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I'm going to have all my accounting credits for the CPA exam in the summer, and will be madly seeking some kind of job in the meantime. I will let you know how it goes? Also this quarter I am taking a 400-level class in tax, and it turns out I really enjoy it??? oh god what have I become 
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Nov 14, 2009 02:58
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Like everyone else said, the math in accounting is not very advanced. Business Statistics and Calculus is about as far as it goes. Law overlaps to some extent, as you'll already know how to do legal research, and you'll already know about various regulations. Seems like you either love accounting or you hate it. I've heard law described the same way before.
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Nov 14, 2009 07:04
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Hellblazer187 posted:In the loosest sense of the word, I am a lawyer. I am licesned to practice law, but I do not have a job as an attorney and probably never will. As the Law thread in A/T proper has noted, bar membership and law school admissions grow much much faster than the need for legal services. At my swearing in ceremony, a speaker (proudly) told us that bar membership was up 30% over the last 5 years. https://www.bls.gov tells us that legal services will grow at 16% over the next decade. This is from a Canadian perspective. Basically accounting is divided into 2 parts. Managerial and Financial. Financial is the CPA (CA Canadian) part. Management accounting (CMA) is the managerial portion. Financial accounting firms break down most of their services into 3 categories. Audit, Tax, Advisory. Audit is boring but pretty steady. Tax is less boring. Advisory is pretty fun, but not as stable. Crossover between sections within a firm is easy. Management accountants work moreso inside of a corporation itself. Management accounting focuses on "cost accounting", where you apply and calculate different ratios and profitability statistics for different items, etc. Employment is lower right now because firms are trying to trim their own budgets because they are getting less work and paid less for their work. It will rebound when the economy inevitably starts going up. I won't say what year what quarter, because if I knew I'd be rich. Overall though, employment is pretty secure. There will always be accountants needed. Newer regulations such as SOX (CSOX Canada) and the transition to IFRS (International standards) will drive the demand for accountants even higher. 2011 I beleive is the official crossover date for Canada. America should be close to that if not that actual number. This and the past regulation of SOX/CSOX provide more jobs, and more stability as they are both mandatory for all public companies. An actual day of accounting is working on whatever your assigned project is. Nothing too fancy. Crunch time (tax season) is not enjoyable. But I haven't experienced that yet. Apparently very very long hours for that season, lots of OT is absorbed or banked for days off when things slow down after tax season. As said, the math is not complex whatsoever. The hardest thing you'll likely have to do mathematically is calculate different financial statement ratio's. Even that is dividing x by y. I have never used calculus in accounting and don't ever see when or where I would use calculus in accounting unless I was doing some sort of financial forecasting. In which case, that is more Finance based and less Accounting based anyways. The difficulty in accounting is derived from the rules, format, standards, etc. What to use, where to use. Most higher end questions are on a solution basis. Where you are given inaccurate or incomplete documents or numbers, and you must fill in the blanks using the memorized relationships or additional information, as well as fix or adjust poorly attempted financial statements by the mock owner in the testing material. Again, not too hard, just lots and lots to memorize. Rules are very strict, you will lose points on most exams for very minor details, however they are very important in a real life scenario. Crossover between law and acctg would exist. Mostly based on the fact that in both studies you are memorizing procedures and standards. I haven't taken much law, contract or tort classes though, so my knowledge in crossover is limited. Again, this is from a Canadian perspective. Nipple Drainage fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Nov 14, 2009 |
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Nov 14, 2009 12:29
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I graduated with my degree in accounting and have since passed my CPA exam. Hiring wasn't bad - there always seems to be jobs available. To become a CPA you need to have public accounting experience - public jobs were harder to come by. I just got one, am on my third week, and am already questioning my career. The work isn't bad - it's cool to know the ins and outs of financials and tax. I am happy to have learned all I know about tax law, but I'm afraid it may not be for me as a career. Working all day without talking to anyone is a bit too soul-sucking for me. Other firms may be different, but for me the lack of human interaction is harrowing at best.
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Nov 16, 2009 16:16
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19 o'clock posted:The work isn't bad - it's cool to know the ins and outs of financials and tax. I am happy to have learned all I know about tax law, but I'm afraid it may not be for me as a career. Working all day without talking to anyone is a bit too soul-sucking for me. Other firms may be different, but for me the lack of human interaction is harrowing at best. Yeah not talking to anyone must be specific to your job/firm, I'm sure you have a chance of getting that in any office job, it depends on the people you work with not the job. My small firm is pretty social my boss takes us out to lunch every day and he also has a wine cooler and Johnie Walker in his office for when we need all need break. Also, I'm working with some auditors from KPMG right now who chat all the time.
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Nov 16, 2009 16:55
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Is it very difficult to get that public accounting job necessary to get the license? I imagine you take all the classes and pass the test first, right? Does volunteer work count? part time work? If I could work part time or volunteer while I'm in school, I'd get licensed that much faster.
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Nov 16, 2009 18:29
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Hellblazer187 posted:Is it very difficult to get that public accounting job necessary to get the license? I imagine you take all the classes and pass the test first, right? Does volunteer work count? part time work? If I could work part time or volunteer while I'm in school, I'd get licensed that much faster. A lot of people do the exam while working in public. Some people wait years until they take the test (i.e. - you are not going to get promoted any further unless you pass the exam...). The CPANet.com forums are depressing. There are some desperate ex-patriote kids trying to get their US CPA license and petitioning firms to let them work for free for the experience. To me, that is absolutely loving ridiculous. Why would you take an entire year (sometimes more?), working for free, just to get the credential. I'm all for professional responsibility, but let's be reasonable. I had trouble because I never got too involved. Never joined the accounting fraternities, never went to any events, and never interned. Do an internship. DO AN INTERNSHIP! DO AN INTERNSHIP OR YOU WILL HAVE A HELL OF A TIME FINDING AN ENTRY LEVEL PUBLIC ACCOUNTING JOB!!!!
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Nov 16, 2009 18:34
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19 o'clock posted:A lot of people do the exam while working in public. Some people wait years until they take the test (i.e. - you are not going to get promoted any further unless you pass the exam...). Just to add and elaborate for OP + Readers.. Same for Canada. Have to work in a CA Firm to get your CA designation. As for working for free, I haven't heard about that but it's understandable. Most of our interns are paid pretty low compared to what you can get elsewhere doing easier jobs or labour jobs. But I can understand, as once you get your CA, or CPA if American, you will have a much easier time getting a job, doing your own side work (bookkeeping for smaller local business, etc.) So things will be a lot easier employment wise after you get your CA/CPA. And since you can't get it without firm experience, you have no choice but to get the firm experience wherever and however. The benefits outweigh the costs of poo poo wage for a year or so. Everyone I know and my work at firms, I've talked to clients a little bit. But a lot of work is by yourself or in your team for the project. Interning is vital, basically it's a test run for the firm. They get to test you out with less labour law restrictions on firing you, lower wage, etc. If you test run good, there's a very high chance you'll get hired after you graduate later on. A good internship at any firm (Doesn't have to be big 4) can almost guarantee you a job upon graduation as long as you don't gently caress up.
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Nov 16, 2009 21:44
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I did 4 internships in law school and have zero job prospects. So if one good non-gently caress up internship in accounting gives a really good shot at a job, that's a vast improvement.
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Nov 17, 2009 00:01
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Once you pass all parts of the CPA exam the credit lasts forever. You don't need the experience before you sit for the exam. So if you pass it now with no experience, you will have an easier time getting a job in public accounting over someone who hasn't sat for the exam yet or needs to get a masters.
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Nov 17, 2009 04:34
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Hellblazer, You might be able to find work in private wealth management. I know they like JDs to deal with tax and trust issues.
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Nov 17, 2009 05:52
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ZeroAX posted:Once you pass all parts of the CPA exam the credit lasts forever. They don't last forever; at least not in my state. State by state it varies. In Colorado you have five years to get your experience requirement satiated else it's all gently caress. The rest is true, though. My current employer was pumped to see me pass the exam of my own volition / dime. See Also: Rent Shopping
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Nov 17, 2009 07:12
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I graduated this June with a B.A. in Economics and have been interested in becoming an accountant. Do I need to get a Masters in Accountancy? Can I just take accounting courses at a community college and take the exam? Does it make a difference?
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Nov 17, 2009 07:55
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Mr. Big posted:I graduated this June with a B.A. in Economics and have been interested in becoming an accountant. Do I need to get a Masters in Accountancy? Can I just take accounting courses at a community college and take the exam? Does it make a difference? Depends on what state you live in and what you want to do. Unless you live in California (or Oregon like me  ) you can go out tomorrow and start charging people to prepare their tax returns if you want to. If you are in OR or CA, or you want to be a CPA, there are school requirements before you can take the appropriate exam.
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Nov 17, 2009 08:16
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As has been mentioned, you will have no problem with the math. The difficulty in accounting lies in understanding a few abstract concepts and when to apply them and the many (many) rules. Assuming you have done corporations, trusts, etc. in law school, your background will give you a leg up in understanding core concepts. Listening to anecdotes probably is not going to give you a good idea of whether accounting will be a rewarding career. Like law, the profession offers a wide variety of opportunities and experiences, and what firm you end up with (and in which city) and the decisions you make about your practice area(s) will dictate whether you enjoy a rewarding career or want to kill yourself. If you're an introverted, analytical person, there are more technical roles that an accountant can take. If you are more social and organizational, you can steer your experience more towards project management-type work, especially in advisory. I don't think you have to make these decisions immediately, but every experienced accountant I've talked to says it's important to learn the basics of all fields in the profession, decide what might be best for you, and outline a rough personal roadmap to be revised as needed. Personally, I got a degree in finance, realized I'd rather shoot myself than go into ibanking, and ended up with an operations analyst position in industry. It was there I saw firsthand that the people who understood the business best were the CAs (Canada), and after doing some research realized that accounting was not just data entry and repetitive calculation (some of it is, though). After meeting a ton of cool people at local firms and seeing they weren't all amoral drones, my perception of the profession continued to change. This is Vancouver, though, and I get a different vibe from different cities, especially south of the border. None of the young accountants I've met has ever worked a 70-hour week, for example, even during busy season. E: For the record, this is all the experience and passed on hearsay of an accounting student. I don't start working for a firm until next year 
Buskas fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Nov 17, 2009 |
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Nov 17, 2009 09:24
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Also get a loving internship or you will want to kill yourself. Realpost.
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Nov 17, 2009 10:15
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Mr. Big posted:Do I need to get a Masters in Accountancy? Can I just take accounting courses at a community college and take the exam? Does it make a difference? Where you take the classes doesn't matter to the accounting board, so long as they are at an accredited university (forget those ITT Tech commercials). Go to http://www.nasba.org/nasbaweb/NASBAWeb.nsf/WPECUSM and check out your state's specific guidelines on licensure. Hope this helps! Edit: Also, get an internship!
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Nov 17, 2009 16:11
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Hellblazer187 posted:I did 4 internships in law school and have zero job prospects. So if one good non-gently caress up internship in accounting gives a really good shot at a job, that's a vast improvement. A joint CPA/JD is rare and quite sought after. I would recommend what a previous poster mentioned and consider steering your career to estate/trust issues. Interesting work, usually with interesting clients who might or might not do what you recommend - it's like playing the lottery!
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Nov 17, 2009 20:02
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I think the feedback you get from various accountants here will vary with each person's capacity as an accountant. There will definitely be differences between people's responses based on whether they work in public accounting or industry, and if they work in public accounting it will certainly be different for those who work for a Big 4 (and within that category, those who work in different areas of Big 4 accounting), regional and small-firm public accounting. That being said, there always seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding public accounting, especially concerning the Big 4. It is a great place to start an accounting career because most firms are generous in terms of paying for the CPA exam and review materials, bonuses for passing, plus the name on your resume. My personal experience as a first year associate at a Big 4 has been mostly positive, but I'm an auditor in the smallest division of our firm. This means I enjoy the benefits of the Big 4, and minimize the negatives - i.e. my busy season is no more than 55 hours a week, no integrated audits, and it feels like I work for a small firm because my group only has about 140 people in it including both audit and tax. To reiterate someone's earlier point, being a CPA and a lawyer is both rare and highly sought after. I know several people who fall in this category, and while they work a lot they also make a ton of money. Tax law seems to be a particularly good field to get into. In terms of education requirements, it does vary from state to state but most seem to be requiring 150 credits total to be certified, which is increasingly becoming a requirement for promotion. Here in MA, certification requires 150 total credits and some minimum number of accounting credits; you do not need an MSA or MST or any other Masters degree, and you can get credits from a community college if the credits transfer to an accredited four year school. As I found out earlier this year, this means that you can take courses for acceptable credit at a community college prior to graduation from a four year school, but if you want to take additional credits after graduating they cannot come from a community college.
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Nov 17, 2009 22:42
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AbbiTheDog posted:A joint CPA/JD is rare and quite sought after. I would recommend what a previous poster mentioned and consider steering your career to estate/trust issues. Interesting work, usually with interesting clients who might or might not do what you recommend - it's like playing the lottery! This is good advice. Estate/trust attorneys are a rare breed. The last tax seminar I went to had one as a speaker for 3 hours and I (and everyone else) found the topic to be very interesting.* *disclaimer: what tax accountants find interesting may not be the same as what normal people find interesting.
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Nov 18, 2009 07:29
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Kinson posted:*disclaimer: what tax accountants find interesting may not be the same as what normal people find interesting. What do you mean, other people don't read Circular 230 for fun???
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Nov 18, 2009 07:46
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Haha, I took a look at Circular 230 just now and my eyes glazed over by the fifth line of the title.
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Nov 18, 2009 07:59
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Kinson posted:This is good advice. Estate/trust attorneys are a rare breed. The last tax seminar I went to had one as a speaker for 3 hours and I (and everyone else) found the topic to be very interesting.* Don't know about that, went to a few classes in late October and the speakers changed every two hours. You'd go from an awesome speaker to a complete snoozefest four times a day.
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Nov 18, 2009 19:24
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AbbiTheDog posted:Don't know about that, went to a few classes in late October and the speakers changed every two hours. You'd go from an awesome speaker to a complete snoozefest four times a day. Sounds about right.
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Nov 19, 2009 06:32
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Kinson posted:Sounds about right. Worst part - seminar was in Vegas. Sweet, sweet Las Vegas waiving from out in the lobby.
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Nov 19, 2009 21:12
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I hit a two day tax seminar in St Cloud, MN. Only left the hotel (which had the shittiest coffee ever) once to play a round of golf across the street. Was the worst course I've ever played on and they were aerating the greens to boot. Why did you go all the way to Vegas for class hours? Don't you live in Oregon? No cpe available nearer?
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Nov 19, 2009 23:01
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The better question is why wouldn't you go to Vegas for CPE credits?
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Nov 20, 2009 00:41
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I think i was pretty much in the same situation as you about 9 months ago though i didn't have a professional degree. I ended up going back to school for a MAcc and so far i'm really liking it. Obviously like everything, school depends on the teacher and I've had some great ones and some bad ones. I knew that i wanted to go into public before I started so i put a lot of emphasis on getting a co op/internship early in the program and I got a summer internship with a big 4 firm which i'm very excited about. I didn't start working so i can't really tell you about the day to day activities that go into being an accountant but i have a good idea of what it's like enough to know that it's not for everyone. My internship is going to be in audit so I know that i'll be working in a small team at the client location and that i'll probably be handling smaller parts of larger audits to start out with. Hellfire, why aren't you exploring other ways to use your law degree? Even though going back to school worked out for me, it's time consuming and expensive and you might get out in no better shape than you are right now...
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Nov 20, 2009 01:22
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I work in "industry". It literally means that I don't work for a CPA firm i.e. public accounting. You're gonna have an easier time if you start out working for a CPA firm, but in my state you do not need public accounting experience to become a CPA. I can't say that I really love my job as an accountant but I don't hate it either. It's hardly a "soul crushing" career like some have described it but yes it can be quite dull at times. It's going to be what you make of it. My advice if you're serious, is to get an internship somewhere and then become a CPA. Be warned though that passing the CPA exam requires a huge time and energy commitment and not everyone can do it. Accounting will almost never be thrilling work but it can be rewarding.
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Nov 20, 2009 04:17
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are internships ever paid? Or are they ever part time? I'm unemployed right now, but if I ever got a paid job I'd have a hard time giving it up for an unpaid full time internship.
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Nov 20, 2009 17:07
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I'm a Canadian and on my way to getting my CA designation. Just wrote the UFE in September (fingers crossed). Being an accountant isn't for everyone, but it's also what you make of it. I hate audit. Hate it with a passion. But I need 1250 assurance hours befor I can get my designation, so it is what it is. If I had to spend my life in audit for a Big 4, I would shoot myself. But there are plenty of industry jobs out there for CA's. There are also other public sectors such as Tax and Valuations that may or may not peak your interest. And that's just for a CA...there are two other designations (CMA, CGA) that open other doors as well. Although I wouldn't expect to get paid nearly as much with either of those two. What I am trying to say is that answering the OP's question is virtually impossible. Being an accountant is not for everyone, but it's also different among those in the profession. It is what you make it. But having the letters CA behind your name open a whole lot of doors in this country.
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Nov 20, 2009 17:20
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Hellblazer187 posted:are internships ever paid? Or are they ever part time? I'm unemployed right now, but if I ever got a paid job I'd have a hard time giving it up for an unpaid full time internship. Most, if not all, internships in accounting are paid and schools make it pretty easy for you to do them by working with the company you're working for and making sure you can get your school work in while you're working. You usually get credit too. Also if you're really serious about getting a career going in accounting (or any other field) you HAVE to do an internship. Don't be penny wise and dollar foolish by taking a crappy full time job instead of an internship that could lead to a real career job.
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Nov 20, 2009 19:13
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I'm an auditor at a local firm, so I don't audit public clients. I think the jobs pretty good. I work 50-55 maybe ten weeks a year and then 30-45 hrs all other times. I don't think the work's very difficult, I don't think it's that boring (but I'm pretty dorky), and I don't work that hard. I surf the internet at work and occasionally read novels in my cube and noone really cares. There are aspects of the job I don't like, especially office politics and travel, which I abhor, but for the most part, I have a job that isn't too stressful or time-consuming and it pays enough that I can live a comfortable lifestyle and save up a lot of money. Keep in mind my experience will differ a lot from those at a national firm, because I don't do control testing, I don't work with groups larger than four, I work mostly in my own cube, and don't follow PCAOB crap.
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Nov 21, 2009 06:17
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Kinson posted:I hit a two day tax seminar in St Cloud, MN. Only left the hotel (which had the shittiest coffee ever) once to play a round of golf across the street. Was the worst course I've ever played on and they were aerating the greens to boot. Why did you go all the way to Vegas for class hours? Don't you live in Oregon? No cpe available nearer? Backstory: When my wife and I got married, I told her since she planned the wedding I get the 10 year anniversary. She said sure. I them informed her at ten years we would renew our vows in front of Elvis in Vegas. She laughed. Well, ten years was July 09, and bless her soul, she said find some CPE in vegas so we could write off some of our trip. And yes, Elvis was as awesome as you might imagine.
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Nov 22, 2009 00:16
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