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Bored College Guy
Jun 19, 2007

I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list
Shite! I woke up to a process server this morning with a summons. The in-house counsel of a local collection agency filed on their behalf, attempting to collect on $2000 of medical fees. This local agency works directly with most of the health care facilities in the area, and in my interactions with them they have been completely legit and following the FDCPA to the letter.

Anywhos, there's no court date on the summons, but an order to respond with my defense in writing to the plaintiff and file the response with the court to avoid default judgement.

On my one and only dealing with the collections agency, they refused to setup payment plans and demanded payment-in-full within a month to avoid "legal proceedings" (considered it an empty threat - whoops!). I'd love to pay it off slowly, but they refused to budge unless it was paid in full in that small span of time.

What are my options here? Do I need to retain an attorney to respond to the summons and file with the court? What should I put in my letter?

Added: So far they haven't dinged my credit.

Bored College Guy fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jan 7, 2010

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Alcoholic Panda
May 25, 2005

I just pulled my credit report, and I have 5 negative entries in there, however, only one of them says that it is with a collection agency at the moment, and I went ahead and disputed that one. The others still state the original creditor's name, and say that they were closed and written off, with no sign of collections. What do I do about these? They're from a couple years back, roughly May of 08.

TWiNKiE
Nov 18, 2002

Daah, I heard that!

Bored College Guy posted:

Shite! I woke up to a process server this morning with a summons. The in-house counsel of a local collection agency filed on their behalf, attempting to collect on $2000 of medical fees. This local agency works directly with most of the health care facilities in the area, and in my interactions with them they have been completely legit and following the FDCPA to the letter.

Anywhos, there's no court date on the summons, but an order to respond with my defense in writing to the plaintiff and file the response with the court to avoid default judgement.
Respond. The sooner, the better.

Hit the "Help, I've Been Served!" forum on CreditBoards. You're more likely to find people there who are lawyers / paralegals / have been sued for medical collections.

quote:

On my one and only dealing with the collections agency, they refused to setup payment plans and demanded payment-in-full within a month to avoid "legal proceedings" (considered it an empty threat - whoops!). I'd love to pay it off slowly, but they refused to budge unless it was paid in full in that small span of time.
After you've filed your response, send them another settlement offer, CMRR.

If nothing else, it lets the collector know that you're not pulling a "gently caress you, sue me." bluff. And as there's no such thing as debtor's jail (at least, in the US), it also gets them a step closer to realizing that you don't have the money to pay. Judgement or not, they can't get $2,000 out of you if you don't have $2,000. And if they garnish your wages (assuming you have wages to garnish in the first place), they're potentially getting smaller payments than they would if they just worked with you.

Perhaps more importantly, it demonstrates to a judge that you're willing to pay, and that they're being less than reasonable. Remember that the judge is a real person, and is probably annoyed when he or she has to deal with things that could be settled out of court.

quote:

What are my options here? Do I need to retain an attorney to respond to the summons and file with the court? What should I put in my letter?
Unless you're just loving with the collectors, or have a rock-solid case, I'd always suggest talking to a lawyer. Problem is: it's going to cost you. If you don't have $2,000 to pay the collector, you probably don't have $800 or so to pay a lawyer.

That shouldn't stop you from trying, though. Check with your state's bar association. Chances are very good that they have a lawyer referral service that can help you for little to no cost. Depending on your financial situation, they might find someone to represent you for next to nothing. But, I don't want to give you false hope. If you're 19 and live with your parents in a nice suburb, I wouldn't count on that.

quote:

Added: So far they haven't dinged my credit.
They probably won't. Thanks to some ambiguity in HIPAA, the FCRA, and FCDPA, it's incredibly easy to not only get a medical collection off of your report, but sue for damages. (Very long explanation summarized: CRA's are third parties, and third-party disclosure is a no-no)

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU
Thanks TWiNKiE for your input - it's nice to get someone else's perspective on this.

TWiNKiE posted:

I'll jump in, since I've been through a lot of this.

You don't want to make your disputes online. In a nutshell: you're doing a lot of their work for them, and you're potentially shooting yourself in the foot.

Disputes have specific codes in each CRA's system. For instance, one for "Not mine". If you're feeding them a "Not mine" code, they're not likely to do much more than contact the creditor and say "Is what you told us true?". More likely than not, the creditor will answer back "Of course!", and in a matter of seconds (because no real person will be involved) your dispute will be turned down, and you risk getting hit with "We've already investigated this." if you try disputing again.

Instead, you want to send them a letter that questions every possible aspect of the account. The account number's wrong. The balance is wrong. The dates are wrong. And so on. A real person has to enter this in, and decide what bucket to put you in. Understand that this person isn't a well-compensated private investigator.

This is good advice if the online disputes aren't working. Personally I've only had one problem mark that didn't go away with an online dispute, but a written one sent to the bureaus will generally be more effective. Then again, I've been happy with online disputing.


quote:

Call them and work something out, or declare bankruptcy.

If you stop paying, they're going to nag you for 90 days. Then they're going to pay someone to nag you, and chances are, they'll be less polite about it.

Since you owe $11,000, they will then almost certainly sue you, and you will almost certainly lose. It is entirely possible that you can get them to stop charging interest, and let you pay it off over time, without doing too much damage to your credit. That won't happen if you don't call them.

This, on the other hand, is terrible advice. Especially in today's climate regarding the use of arbitration. UltimateKO, check to see if your BoA card has pushed through a 'Change in Terms' notice recently. If you've been keeping good records of the items you've received from the company, you'll have a copy of it. If you haven't had your terms changed recently, you're in luck, and you should stop paying on the card. If they pursue you for the debt (and they will, trust me) mention in any letters to them that you will choose to elect (and use 'elect,' that's important) arbitration to settle the matter privately. This sucks BoA into a black hole that they likely will not get out of - they need to pay for nearly the whole cost of the proceedings (you pay $250, and if you're at 300% of the poverty line or below, you get a waiver - AND BoA, as per your agreement, may need to forward you the money to begin as per the contract language!) and the climate of arbitrators has shifted very pro-consumer. BoA will not want to throw $50000 and years of their time into arbitration to get your $11k, trust me. I've recently dealt with them for an amount close to what you owe, and they've thrown up the white flag.

Also, arbitration waives both parties right to litigate - so you have an angle to countersue if they move to sue you after you elect.

Now, if they've changed the terms to strike the arb clause, you'll want to try to work out a plan with them, as TWiNKiE said.

quote:

But over the past year or so? Collections and capital losses mean something very different now. To be honest, I wouldn't gently caress around with any debt over $500 that's within SOL and went in to collections less than two years ago.

So far I haven't seen collectors or OC's wisen up one bit about collecting fairly or properly yet, and if anything have become more aggressive, more frustrated, and more likely to violate now that the public's wallets have tightened up.

quote:

If nothing else, it lets the collector know that you're not pulling a "gently caress you, sue me." bluff. And as there's no such thing as debtor's jail (at least, in the US), it also gets them a step closer to realizing that you don't have the money to pay. Judgement or not, they can't get $2,000 out of you if you don't have $2,000. And if they garnish your wages (assuming you have wages to garnish in the first place), they're potentially getting smaller payments than they would if they just worked with you.

Perhaps more importantly, it demonstrates to a judge that you're willing to pay, and that they're being less than reasonable. Remember that the judge is a real person, and is probably annoyed when he or she has to deal with things that could be settled out of court.

You can try to hammer out a settlement, but in my experience once they've pulled the lawsuit trigger they're gunning for the judgment. In their eyes, they've already spent the time and money putting the lawyer on retainer, they've spent the initial filing fee for the case (usually around $250-300) and they haven't gotten anything from you so far. In talking with lawyers on the collection side, they're often told not to settle for less than 60%+ of what's being asked, up front, if at all. A lot of the time, these settlements end up not being paid, and they have to go back to court in a few months to try collection efforts again. The last time I had to be in court to file motions, the debt lawyers weren't doing their pre-trial settlement conferences. They're in it for the full amounts now. And the judges, at least here, don't care. They're more annoyed that you're defending yourself at all instead of him ruling a default, and in their eyes there's nothing unreasonable about the plaintiff pushing for everything they're owed.

Plus, judgments usually can be collected for 10, sometimes 20+ years depending on the state (and bear interest the whole time) so they can just sit back and wait for you to have an income to garnish.

quote:

Unless you're just loving with the collectors, or have a rock-solid case, I'd always suggest talking to a lawyer. Problem is: it's going to cost you. If you don't have $2,000 to pay the collector, you probably don't have $800 or so to pay a lawyer.

That shouldn't stop you from trying, though. Check with your state's bar association. Chances are very good that they have a lawyer referral service that can help you for little to no cost. Depending on your financial situation, they might find someone to represent you for next to nothing. But, I don't want to give you false hope. If you're 19 and live with your parents in a nice suburb, I wouldn't count on that.

My area has a free legal help center for the poor/indigent, as do many others. Even if that's not available, check to see if your county courthouse has something like a 'pro se help day' or something similar. Mine does once a week, and they have people on staff to assist with court procedure, paperwork filing, and searches in the law library.

iceaim
May 20, 2001

I had racked up $100k in legal fees that I stuck on several credit cards and lines of business credit. I was still in the US at the time, and when poo poo finally settled I was already living in HK.

I walked away from that $100k unsecured debt and there was nothing these creditors were able to do to me. Like 2 of them sued me about 4 years ago, but since I was now in Hong Kong (and still am!) a default judgment from a US court is meaningless here. So I don't have to worry about having my income garnished or my bank account seized.

My US credit was ruined for sure, but it didn't follow me to HK anyways. I built a brand new credit history in Hong Kong and have never looked back.

Edit: Also when the creditors sued me, they never properly served me because they couldn't find me. They actually tried to leave the papers with my parents which isn't going to make any judgment stick. But like I said, a US judgment doesn't matter to me anyways.

iceaim fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Jan 7, 2010

sweek0
May 22, 2006

Let me fall out the window
With confetti in my hair
Deal out jacks or better
On a blanket by the stairs
I'll tell you all my secrets
But I lie about my past

iceaim posted:

I had racked up $100k in legal fees that I stuck on several credit cards and lines of business credit. I was still in the US at the time, and when poo poo finally settled I was already living in HK.

I walked away from that $100k unsecured debt and there was nothing these creditors were able to do to me. Like 2 of them sued me about 4 years ago, but since I was now in Hong Kong (and still am!) a default judgment from a US court is meaningless here. So I don't have to worry about having my income garnished or my bank account seized.

My US credit was ruined for sure, but it didn't follow me to HK anyways. I built a brand new credit history in Hong Kong and have never looked back.

Edit: Also when the creditors sued me, they never properly served me because they couldn't find me. They actually tried to leave the papers with my parents which isn't going to make any judgment stick. But like I said, a US judgment doesn't matter to me anyways.
What would happen if you were to move back to the US?

amateur economist
Nov 12, 2007

by Ozmaugh

The Flying Clog Wog posted:

What would happen if you were to move back to the US?

Creditors could potentially serve him papers and if there was a judgment against him in court, it might be possible for the court to take US Bank accounts and garnish US wages.

Although I think that in debt cases, if they can show that you have a lot of money hiding overseas, you can be hit with contempt of court charges if you refuse to pay after a judgement. I'm not sure, I don't really know the law.

Wide Area Network
May 6, 2009

Connecting the world...FOR EVIL
Pulled my credit report this morning and I see 4 collection accounts that have been "closed". What exactly does that mean? I never reached a settlement with any of them.

What is my best recourse here? How long do they stay on the report normally?

Thanks!!

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

Alcoe80 posted:

Pulled my credit report this morning and I see 4 collection accounts that have been "closed". What exactly does that mean? I never reached a settlement with any of them.

What is my best recourse here? How long do they stay on the report normally?

Thanks!!

"Closed" can mean a lot of things, usually the report will say 'closed by consumer' or 'closed by creditor' or something like that. Generally an account will stay on your report for 7 years from the month you stopped paying on the account (or in the case of a non-collections account, paid off the balance in full) and then falls off. Some creditors will try to 're-age' the account and make it look newer than it is, and that's what you need to look out for. Make sure the dates on your report match up with your own records.

quote:

Although I think that in debt cases, if they can show that you have a lot of money hiding overseas, you can be hit with contempt of court charges if you refuse to pay after a judgement. I'm not sure, I don't really know the law.

Most states have specific statutes that say the court will not press charges or otherwise pursue criminal cases against people who don't pay unsecured debt. It would have to be a lot of money and an air-tight case where the creditors could prove clear intent of fraud.

CubsWoo fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jan 7, 2010

UltimateKO
Mar 31, 2008

CubsWoo posted:

This, on the other hand, is terrible advice. Especially in today's climate regarding the use of arbitration. UltimateKO, check to see if your BoA card has pushed through a 'Change in Terms' notice recently. If you've been keeping good records of the items you've received from the company, you'll have a copy of it. If you haven't had your terms changed recently, you're in luck, and you should stop paying on the card. If they pursue you for the debt (and they will, trust me) mention in any letters to them that you will choose to elect (and use 'elect,' that's important) arbitration to settle the matter privately. This sucks BoA into a black hole that they likely will not get out of - they need to pay for nearly the whole cost of the proceedings (you pay $250, and if you're at 300% of the poverty line or below, you get a waiver - AND BoA, as per your agreement, may need to forward you the money to begin as per the contract language!) and the climate of arbitrators has shifted very pro-consumer. BoA will not want to throw $50000 and years of their time into arbitration to get your $11k, trust me. I've recently dealt with them for an amount close to what you owe, and they've thrown up the white flag.


I have already called them and set up a payment plan, which was about a year ago, but life never goes as planned, my wife needed a car and now we have another car payment that was unexpected. Can my account still be arbitrated even though the cc is technically "closed”?

TWiNKiE
Nov 18, 2002

Daah, I heard that!

CubsWoo posted:

This is good advice if the online disputes aren't working. Personally I've only had one problem mark that didn't go away with an online dispute, but a written one sent to the bureaus will generally be more effective. Then again, I've been happy with online disputing.
Beyond the reasons I've already pointed out for disputing via mail CMRR, is you literally start a paper trail.

Let's say the dispute comes back verified. Now what?

Your initial options are either to tell them to prove it, or try disputing again.

If you tell them to prove it, they'll stall. And more importantly, if you want to dispute multiple angles, you're going to have a harder time. They have a relatively solid leg to stand on in dismissing your dispute as "frivolous" by using the rationale "The consumer said _____ was incorrect. We validated it, and now they're coming back and saying everything is incorrect."

It's also nice to have a copy of that green card to go along with the copies of your court filing, when you send them your last letter warning them that you know they got your disputes, and you're going to sue them if they don't delete or give you better proof that they verified with the creditor.

quote:

This, on the other hand, is terrible advice. Especially in today's climate regarding the use of arbitration. UltimateKO, check to see if your BoA card has pushed through a 'Change in Terms' notice recently. If you've been keeping good records of the items you've received from the company, you'll have a copy of it. If you haven't had your terms changed recently, you're in luck, and you should stop paying on the card. If they pursue you for the debt (and they will, trust me) mention in any letters to them that you will choose to elect (and use 'elect,' that's important) arbitration to settle the matter privately. This sucks BoA into a black hole that they likely will not get out of - they need to pay for nearly the whole cost of the proceedings (you pay $250, and if you're at 300% of the poverty line or below, you get a waiver - AND BoA, as per your agreement, may need to forward you the money to begin as per the contract language!) and the climate of arbitrators has shifted very pro-consumer. BoA will not want to throw $50000 and years of their time into arbitration to get your $11k, trust me. I've recently dealt with them for an amount close to what you owe, and they've thrown up the white flag.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Here's why I think that is terrible advice:

This is going to accelerate a chargeoff. Having a chargeoff on your report is basically poison if you plan to get any sort of credit card or loan at a reasonable rate. You are potentially better off having a bankruptcy on your report. (The rationale being that you can only declare bankruptcy so many times)

The person in this situation also hasn't expressed an unwillingness to pay, or that there's been any ratejacking or other wrongdoing.

As for arbitration, the creditor almost always gets to choose who the arbitrator is. If anything, you want out of arbitration. Good luck convincing an arbitrator that you should be able to walk away from a legitimate debt.

quote:

Also, arbitration waives both parties right to litigate - so you have an angle to countersue if they move to sue you after you elect.
Again, this is my case against arbitration.

You've shut the door to going to court, if you agree to arbitration. And honestly, unless you can demonstrate that the $11,000 comprises of $7,000 in "hard" debt and $4,000 in default interest because you made a single payment late, you're not going to win. "I don't have any money / I don't want to pay" will get you absolutely nowhere with an arbitrator.

quote:

So far I haven't seen collectors or OC's wisen up one bit about collecting fairly or properly yet, and if anything have become more aggressive, more frustrated, and more likely to violate now that the public's wallets have tightened up.
This is my point. They're much more trigger happy when it comes to lawsuits.

That's all fine and good when they go sniffing for zombie debt, or you absolutely have them dead to rights on violations. Beyond that, though, you typically don't want to wind up in court.

Don't get me wrong. I've sued and been sued before, and as luck would have it, I've come out on top each time. But that doesn't make it a particularly enjoyable or productive experience.

quote:

You can try to hammer out a settlement, but in my experience once they've pulled the lawsuit trigger they're gunning for the judgment. In their eyes, they've already spent the time and money putting the lawyer on retainer, they've spent the initial filing fee for the case (usually around $250-300) and they haven't gotten anything from you so far.
The person in this situation didn't elaborate, but my guess is that for $2,000, they're filing in small claims, where their investment is probably about 10% of that.

It's always cheaper to stay out of court, and working something out doesn't waive their right to haul you in to court if you stop paying.

quote:

They're in it for the full amounts now. And the judges, at least here, don't care. They're more annoyed that you're defending yourself at all instead of him ruling a default, and in their eyes there's nothing unreasonable about the plaintiff pushing for everything they're owed.
And with good reason, all around.

Bud Hibbs, Creditboards, and others are catching on. As a result, courts are filling up with defendants who come in with half-cocked ideas about laws they don't really understand, butcher Latin to sound brilliant, and generally waste everyone's time.

There's a vast difference between people who will sit down, take the time necessary to understand what they're defending, why they're defending it, and how to follow proper procedure, and people who are cheered on by armchair lawyers who in all likelihood have never set foot in court, and are taking a "defense by numbers" approach.

And honestly, it isn't unreasonable to sue someone for the full amount they're owed.

quote:

Plus, judgments usually can be collected for 10, sometimes 20+ years depending on the state (and bear interest the whole time) so they can just sit back and wait for you to have an income to garnish.
Which is why you want to work something out before ending up in court, if the debt is legitimate.

If they're tacking on ridiculous fees, or violating your rights, that's one thing. (Personally, I have no shame in adding "If they're a debt-buyer" to that list.) But if you legitimately owe someone money, and all they're asking you for is the money they're owed, you're better off staying out of court.

CubsWoo posted:

"Closed" can mean a lot of things, usually the report will say 'closed by consumer' or 'closed by creditor' or something like that.
Any collection account has to be reported as "closed". Reporting it as an open account is a violation. :eng101:

quote:

Generally an account will stay on your report for 7 years from the month you stopped paying on the account (or in the case of a non-collections account, paid off the balance in full) and then falls off.
Positive information can (but doesn't have to) stay on forever. Negative information can't stay on longer than 7 years + 180 days from the date of first delinquency (not date of last activity -- though this is often how negative info shows up in reports). Bankruptcies can stay on for 10 years.

quote:

Some creditors will try to 're-age' the account and make it look newer than it is, and that's what you need to look out for. Make sure the dates on your report match up with your own records.
This is one of the reasons why it's important to always send a debt validation request as soon as you get something from a collector.

quote:

Most states have specific statutes that say the court will not press charges or otherwise pursue criminal cases against people who don't pay unsecured debt. It would have to be a lot of money and an air-tight case where the creditors could prove clear intent of fraud.
I'm not sure what you mean here.

Courts don't necessarily have the burden to collect on a judgement. They tell you to pay the plaintiff, and you're supposed to. If you don't the plaintiff can go back to the court and say "The defendant didn't pay me!", at which time the court will send a summons to the defendant and ask about all of their finances, to try and determine why payment hasn't been made.

If the defendant has a good reason (documented illness, loss of work, other clear inability to pay), there's not much that can be done. But if the defendant is just not paying, he or she could be hit with a contempt of court charge (though the person would probably need to be a smartass to the judge, or a complete douche for this to happen) and could be looking at garnishment.

amateur economist
Nov 12, 2007

by Ozmaugh

TWiNKiE posted:

If the defendant has a good reason (documented illness, loss of work, other clear inability to pay), there's not much that can be done. But if the defendant is just not paying, he or she could be hit with a contempt of court charge (though the person would probably need to be a smartass to the judge, or a complete douche for this to happen) and could be looking at garnishment.

Yeah, if you go in front of the judge and say "Sorry judge, as you can see, I have no assets" and the plaintiff can show evidence that you have 100k squirreled away offshore, that's the situation in which I believe you can be hit for contempt.

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...
So a bit of a question related to this thread. My mom is seperating from her 2nd husband. 60% of their combined income was his. So now she has a lot of debt in her name, and not enough income to satisfy it all.

1. We are in the process of getting her a lawyer. She has no money, and legal aid is really drat busy.

In the meantime until we can consult with a lawyer, she can't afford to pay her rediculous 12ish credit cards, a huge unsecured loan, 2 cars, mortgage, and her utilities.

Basically we figured out she can afford her utilities, mortgage, 1 car payment, and thats about it. She found someone to buy her house, as my sister is going to provide her a place to live. She's going to end up with about $9,000 from the sale of the house before taxes, which we will use to pay down some debts, but its not enough.

Should she just stop paying her unsecured debts while she's in the process of getting a lawyer and most likely filing for bankruptcy?

amateur economist
Nov 12, 2007

by Ozmaugh

jassi007 posted:

Should she just stop paying her unsecured debts while she's in the process of getting a lawyer and most likely filing for bankruptcy?

Ask the lawyer, but a lawyer will almost always recommend this

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

amateur economist posted:

Ask the lawyer, but a lawyer will almost always recommend this

Its hard to ask the lawyer before you have the lawyer.

multigl
Nov 22, 2005

"Who's cool and has two thumbs? This guy!"
simple question about annoying debt collectors:

for about three years now I've received phone calls from different collectors for the wrong person. They call my cellphone (it's my original cellphone #) and it usually happens 3-4 calls a day for a week then I tell them I'm not the person they're looking for and it's a cellphone they're calling so please stop. They'll stop calling for a couple of months then start up again.

I have absolutely no idea who the person is they're calling for, my credit is fine with no collections or anything.

How can I get these fucks to quit calling me?

TWiNKiE
Nov 18, 2002

Daah, I heard that!

amateur economist posted:

Yeah, if you go in front of the judge and say "Sorry judge, as you can see, I have no assets" and the plaintiff can show evidence that you have 100k squirreled away offshore, that's the situation in which I believe you can be hit for contempt.
Unless you're Kwame Kilpatrick, though he was threatened by the judge for being in contempt.

jassi007 posted:

So a bit of a question related to this thread. My mom is seperating from her 2nd husband. 60% of their combined income was his. So now she has a lot of debt in her name, and not enough income to satisfy it all.

Should she just stop paying her unsecured debts while she's in the process of getting a lawyer and most likely filing for bankruptcy?
So he has most of the money, and everything was in her name? :confused:

Assuming they're joint assets / debts, it's in both of their best interests to pay as normal. Otherwise, both of their credit reports are going to get trashed.

multigl posted:

How can I get these fucks to quit calling me?
Complain to your state's attorney general. If you're feeling nasty, find out who they are, and complain to their state's attorney general, too.

Chances are, you can file your complaint(s) online.

tuzalu
Jul 23, 2007
I pulled my wife's credit report and there were a few negatives on it.

The first was some late payments on a credit card that is now paid in full and remains open.

The second is late payments on a card that was paid in full and closed at credit grantor's request.

The last is a collection agency for about $300 from about 4 years ago.

I am going to dispute and try to negotiate deleting the collection amount from her account. With the other accounts that have already been paid, is there any way to have the negatives removed from her credit history?

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

TWiNKiE posted:

Beyond the reasons I've already pointed out for disputing via mail CMRR, is you literally start a paper trail.

Let's say the dispute comes back verified. Now what?

Your initial options are either to tell them to prove it, or try disputing again.

If you tell them to prove it, they'll stall. And more importantly, if you want to dispute multiple angles, you're going to have a harder time. They have a relatively solid leg to stand on in dismissing your dispute as "frivolous" by using the rationale "The consumer said _____ was incorrect. We validated it, and now they're coming back and saying everything is incorrect."

It's also nice to have a copy of that green card to go along with the copies of your court filing, when you send them your last letter warning them that you know they got your disputes, and you're going to sue them if they don't delete or give you better proof that they verified with the creditor.

I totally agree that sending paper requests to the bureau is better. In my case, I've been lazy, and it's yet to bite me in the rear end, but if you want to be 100% sure, send your disputes CMRRR.

quote:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Here's why I think that is terrible advice:

This is going to accelerate a chargeoff. Having a chargeoff on your report is basically poison if you plan to get any sort of credit card or loan at a reasonable rate. You are potentially better off having a bankruptcy on your report. (The rationale being that you can only declare bankruptcy so many times)

The person in this situation also hasn't expressed an unwillingness to pay, or that there's been any ratejacking or other wrongdoing.

As for arbitration, the creditor almost always gets to choose who the arbitrator is. If anything, you want out of arbitration. Good luck convincing an arbitrator that you should be able to walk away from a legitimate debt.
Again, this is my case against arbitration.

You've shut the door to going to court, if you agree to arbitration. And honestly, unless you can demonstrate that the $11,000 comprises of $7,000 in "hard" debt and $4,000 in default interest because you made a single payment late, you're not going to win. "I don't have any money / I don't want to pay" will get you absolutely nowhere with an arbitrator.

This isn't true anymore. Less than a year ago I would have fought to stay out of arbitration, but NAF (the main arb forum that was used) has been shut down by the MN AG, and the second forum (AAA) doesn't take debt collection arbs anymore because they fear the same fate as NAF. That just leaves one forum, JAMS, and JAMS is very, very pro-consumer. By electing, you handcuff the plaintiff into playing by a very specific, difficult to navigate set of rules on their part, not to mention the delays. This timeline is coming from a friend of mine who's currently working through 3 or 4 cases this way:

- Court case is stayed/dismissed pending arbitration
- Court determines who initiates arbitration. If court says collector must initiate, you win, because AAA isn't take debt cases at all and JAMS won't take cases that are initiated from the collector. Collector also can't re-open the case because electing arb waives the court path. Failure to arbitrate does not mean litigation returns. If consumer must initiate, you file with JAMS and hit the creditor with a massive claim based on pain and suffering due to the stress of the litigation (my friend typically claims 5-10x what the collector is asking for.) JAMS says consumer must pay $250 to initiate - do not send this yet. Wait to be billed. Also, if your credit card contract says you use NAF for your arbitration, you must now agree on a new forum. Take 6 months or so to decide if the one the creditor wants is acceptable!

(Note: The Federal Arbitration Act only allows a judge to set a specific arbitrator within a forum, not the forum itself.)

- 3 months later, JAMS will bill you the $250. Wait 30 days and request the fee waiver if your income is sub-300% poverty line. 30-60 days after that, JAMS will rule on your waiver. After this, the collector is now responsible for all arbitration fees on the case from this point forward. Typically the case dies here, because the collector usually will be billed at least $2500-4000 for initial arbitrator fees.
- Spend 6 months debating on what kind of rules you want the arbitrator to follow, whether you want a 1-person or 3-person arb panel (always choose 3), choice of venue, and myriad other things.
- Even if everything goes through arbitration and you still somehow lose (which, with JAMS, is not going to happen often) they have to get the arbitration award confirmed in court to collect. At this point, you hire a good consumer lawyer and try to get the award nullified.

In today's climate, arbitration at worst eats up 2-3 years of a creditor's time and legal expenses (that can't be recouped per JAMS rules) to get your money, and at best short-circuits their case immediately. There's a reason all the companies are dropping their mandatory arb clauses. They're biting the creditors in the rear end.


quote:

It's always cheaper to stay out of court, and working something out doesn't waive their right to haul you in to court if you stop paying.
And with good reason, all around.

Bud Hibbs, Creditboards, and others are catching on. As a result, courts are filling up with defendants who come in with half-cocked ideas about laws they don't really understand, butcher Latin to sound brilliant, and generally waste everyone's time.

There's a vast difference between people who will sit down, take the time necessary to understand what they're defending, why they're defending it, and how to follow proper procedure, and people who are cheered on by armchair lawyers who in all likelihood have never set foot in court, and are taking a "defense by numbers" approach.

And honestly, it isn't unreasonable to sue someone for the full amount they're owed.
Which is why you want to work something out before ending up in court, if the debt is legitimate.

I agree that you don't want to do form-letter 'defense by numbers' or anything like that, but the resources for pro se defendants are very expansive and helpful, and the majority of debt lawsuits don't expect the debtor to put up even a token defense, let alone show up. I will agree that in most cases, pre-lawsuit, it's a better idea to try and work with them. But once they've moved to sue, you have nothing to lose by making them do the actual work to prove their case instead of sheepishly taking a judgment or settlement.


quote:

Courts don't necessarily have the burden to collect on a judgement. They tell you to pay the plaintiff, and you're supposed to. If you don't the plaintiff can go back to the court and say "The defendant didn't pay me!", at which time the court will send a summons to the defendant and ask about all of their finances, to try and determine why payment hasn't been made.

If the defendant has a good reason (documented illness, loss of work, other clear inability to pay), there's not much that can be done. But if the defendant is just not paying, he or she could be hit with a contempt of court charge (though the person would probably need to be a smartass to the judge, or a complete douche for this to happen) and could be looking at garnishment.

In my state, at least, the judge can't force you to pay a debt even with a judgment. They can order your accounts seized and your pay garnished(and subpoena you to find these things), but post-judgment, even if you have money, if none of it can be seized via a garnishment/seizure order, they can't legally press charges for not wanting to pay.

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

tuzalu posted:

I pulled my wife's credit report and there were a few negatives on it.

The first was some late payments on a credit card that is now paid in full and remains open.

The second is late payments on a card that was paid in full and closed at credit grantor's request.

The last is a collection agency for about $300 from about 4 years ago.

I am going to dispute and try to negotiate deleting the collection amount from her account. With the other accounts that have already been paid, is there any way to have the negatives removed from her credit history?

The negatives will probably stay on if they're valid, but some people have had luck sending good will letters to the creditors asking for the marks to be deleted. It doesn't work very often, but it also doesn't hurt to try.

horribleslob
Nov 23, 2004
I was called about 8 times with a spoofed number (000-000-0000) by FIA Card Services (B of A goons) after I asked them to make all correspondence through the mail. I was behind on a payment. Can I sue?

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

TWiNKiE posted:

So he has most of the money, and everything was in her name? :confused:

Assuming they're joint assets / debts, it's in both of their best interests to pay as normal. Otherwise, both of their credit reports are going to get trashed.


There is 1 mortgage in her name, 2 cars, about 12 credit cards, and 1 unsecured loan. He has some credit cards in his name, but that is it.

He had filed for bankruptcy in the past, and had bad credit. This is what my mom tells me. They both work slightly above minimum wage retail jobs, but he is also getting SSI benifits (he's 70 something). So most of the bills they wracked up while married the credit for all of them was taken out in her name, since she had good credit and he did not. Of course in hindsight, this was very stupid on my mothers part. I'm not claiming she is a victim, she has made a lot of bad mistakes to get to where she is now. I told my sister, if this was anyone other than my mom I'd tell them good luck with that mess. So yes, he made 60% of the income, and most of the debt is in her name.

They are now seperated, he is elsewhere, and will not give her any money to pay any of the bills they accumulated while married since they aren't in his name. She has about 800-1000 more in bills to pay each month than she makes, so just pay as normal is not an option right now. I fully expect her credit to be trashed. She is very stupid with credit, and the harder it is to get someone to lend her money, the better off she'll be. My siblings and I will make sure she is provided for, she just needs to get this mess cleaned up.

jassi007 fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jan 8, 2010

Rusty Shackelford
Feb 7, 2005
How old is she and what types of credit do you see her needing in the future?

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

Lief posted:

I was called about 8 times with a spoofed number (000-000-0000) by FIA Card Services (B of A goons) after I asked them to make all correspondence through the mail. I was behind on a payment. Can I sue?

A suit will be difficult if you don't have proof of the spoofed calls coming from BoA. If your phone bill records numbers, great - if not, check to see if you can record calls in your state without mutual consent. Beyond that, suing just on phone calls can be hard anyway, but sending an intent to sue letter can be enough to get them to stop.

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

Rusty Shackelford posted:

How old is she and what types of credit do you see her needing in the future?

She is 61, and the only thing I can think she could need credit for in the future would be for a car. She has a car now, and its in decent shape, but she'll probably need another one at some point in the next 3-6 years.

Her spending is due to stupidity, low income, and her soon to be ex-husband somehow put thousands of dollars worth of gambling debts on credit cards. Her utilities plus her car and her mortgage add up to about 780 per month. Figure in gas and food and medicine, I estimate about $900-1000 a month. She takes home about $600 every two weeks.

She has like 12 credit cards with debts totalling about 12k, a unsecured loan worth about 18k which has a $420/month payment. I have no idea what this is, other than its not from a bank, its from a credit place, and it has some CRAZY interest rate. Like 18% or something. Plus a second vehicle payment that is for the car her estranged husband is driving. We need to get it in his name which is unlikely due to his bad credit, or just let the bank take it.

I'm estimating we'll be able to get her with a lawyer late this month or next month, but in the meantime I am wondering whats going to happen, because there are bills that just have to go unpaid for now.

TWiNKiE
Nov 18, 2002

Daah, I heard that!

CubsWoo posted:

Arbitration...
This is predicated on a lot of assumptions, and if it isn't followed to the letter, you wind up with a CO on your report that you can't do anything about, because you haven't gone through arbitration (and won't for a long time).

quote:

I agree that you don't want to do form-letter 'defense by numbers' or anything like that, but the resources for pro se defendants are very expansive and helpful, and the majority of debt lawsuits don't expect the debtor to put up even a token defense, let alone show up.
I agree, 100%. The piece that's missing is that it takes a certain demeanor, intellect, and willingness to learn. Not everybody has that.

I can put out a box of hammers with a "FREE!" sign, and know that some people will take the hammers, and build something useful. Others will take the hammers simply because they're free. And others will take the hammers to smash out car windows.

quote:

I will agree that in most cases, pre-lawsuit, it's a better idea to try and work with them. But once they've moved to sue, you have nothing to lose by making them do the actual work to prove their case instead of sheepishly taking a judgment or settlement.
That's not entirely true.

Right off the bat, settling out of court keeps you from getting a judgement tacked on to your report.

If the plaintiff has you on a legitimate debt, is the original creditor (or is acting on their behalf), and hasn't slammed you with unconscionable fees and / or interest, you have nothing to gain by going to court, other than hoping that they don't show up, or that you can catch them on a technicality that will only postpone the inevitable (at best).

The person who shows up in court to sue you is typically not the same person making $8 an hour to nag you on the phone. If you have a non-JDB hauling you in to court, they're much more likely to have their i's dotted and t's crossed. You need a legitimate defense, or a defense that's as good as legitimate.

quote:

In my state, at least, the judge can't force you to pay a debt even with a judgment. They can order your accounts seized and your pay garnished(and subpoena you to find these things), but post-judgment, even if you have money, if none of it can be seized via a garnishment/seizure order, they can't legally press charges for not wanting to pay.
Texas?

Lief posted:

I was called about 8 times with a spoofed number (000-000-0000) by FIA Card Services (B of A goons) after I asked them to make all correspondence through the mail. I was behind on a payment. Can I sue?
1) Did you mail them your request to stop calling you?
2) Did your request say it was inconvenient or not allowed by your employer?
3) Can you prove that you sent it?
4) Can you prove that they received it?
5) Can you prove that they called you?

You can sue anyone for anything you want. Assume each "no" reduces your probability of winning by 20%

jassi007 posted:

She takes home about $600 every two weeks.
Bankruptcy is pretty much it.

If he's low-income and on SSDI, she's not getting a fat alimony check. Her income alone doesn't come close to covering her expenses, based on the numbers you've provided.

Right off the bat, her most basic living expenses are $1,680 - $1,780 on $1,200. I'm taking what you said at face value, so I'm assuming that doesn't cover things like clothing, any entertainment, etc. She's working with a $480 - $580 deficit before we even talk about another $40,000 in unsecured debt (and if she's got 12 cards with $12k in debt, that paints the picture of multiple subprime cards with APR's in the high 20's).

No amount of legal fuckery is going to make twelve credit cards, an auto loan, and a personal loan go away, and modify a mortgage, and modify another auto loan, and make food and medicine cheaper.

TWiNKiE fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 8, 2010

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

TWiNKiE posted:

Bankruptcy is pretty much it.

If he's low-income and on SSDI, she's not getting a fat alimony check. Her income alone doesn't come close to covering her expenses, based on the numbers you've provided.

Right off the bat, her most basic living expenses are $1,680 - $1,780 on $1,200. I'm taking what you said at face value, so I'm assuming that doesn't cover things like clothing, any entertainment, etc. She's working with a $480 - $580 deficit before we even talk about another $40,000 in unsecured debt (and if she's got 12 cards with $12k in debt, that paints the picture of multiple subprime cards with APR's in the high 20's).

No amount of legal fuckery is going to make twelve credit cards, an auto loan, and a personal loan go away, and modify a mortgage, and modify another auto loan, and make food and medicine cheaper.

Thats pretty much what I figured. My brother and my brother-in-law are both going "she can't do that she'll have bad credit/a bad reputation!" I'm telling them and her to just face reality, she's in the hole.

One other odd question, one of her credit cards is with Walmart, who she works for. My sister thinks she could have a problem if she stopped paying that one. Any idea? Will Walmart come after her through her wages since she is an employee?

Rusty Shackelford
Feb 7, 2005

jassi007 posted:

Thats pretty much what I figured. My brother and my brother-in-law are both going "she can't do that she'll have bad credit/a bad reputation!" I'm telling them and her to just face reality, she's in the hole.

Just plan ahead for when she needs a car and make sure that she makes the payments on housing.

TheWevel
Apr 14, 2002
Send Help; Trapped in Stupid Factory

jassi007 posted:

One other odd question, one of her credit cards is with Walmart, who she works for. My sister thinks she could have a problem if she stopped paying that one. Any idea? Will Walmart come after her through her wages since she is an employee?

I seriously doubt it...Walmart isn't the bank that the card is through. I think their stuff is through GEMB.

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

TWiNKiE posted:

This is predicated on a lot of assumptions, and if it isn't followed to the letter, you wind up with a CO on your report that you can't do anything about, because you haven't gone through arbitration (and won't for a long time).

This is true. Considering this specific scenario, though, I assumed the person with $11k in debt doesn't have the money to pay it off and is therefore going to get a negative tradeline on the report no matter what, and in my experience with BoA they refuse to do pay-for-deletes - so gently caress 'em. Even at a 30% settlement you're maybe looking at a 10 or 20 point bump on your credit report going from closed/unpaid and in collections to closed/settled for over $3000 and that's not a wise use of your money.



quote:

If the plaintiff has you on a legitimate debt, is the original creditor (or is acting on their behalf), and hasn't slammed you with unconscionable fees and / or interest, you have nothing to gain by going to court, other than hoping that they don't show up, or that you can catch them on a technicality that will only postpone the inevitable (at best).

You're also assuming the OC or local counsel will take a settlement once legal action has started. This used to be true, my courthouse, prior to the docket call, would have all the debt lawyers line people up outside the courtroom by plaintiff and say 'see if you can reach a settlement before your case is called.' They don't do this anymore (at least, not here) and answering the summons, running the trial, and losing only puts you out the hours you tried. If you affirm the debt, they're taking court costs and fees anyway and you get the judgment on your report that much earlier.

If you can settle/PFD before legal action, it may be a better idea. Once you have been served, there is absolutely no reason not to fight the case tooth and nail. My last three cases were worth about $18000 in unsecured debt and I had settlement offers of around $7k to change my tradeline to 'settled' (no PFD offers.) Instead, I have 2 cases dismissed with prejudice and 1 stayed indefinitely (creditor refuses to pay arbitration fees to continue arbitration, so the case is effectively dead) for a grand total of $20 spent on postage, plus 20 or 30 man-hours on the weekends researching and formulating the documents.

quote:

The person who shows up in court to sue you is typically not the same person making $8 an hour to nag you on the phone. If you have a non-JDB hauling you in to court, they're much more likely to have their i's dotted and t's crossed. You need a legitimate defense, or a defense that's as good as legitimate.

No, it's not, but most creditors hire out legal counsel locally (for high-dollar cases and some cards will you in-house, but it's rare) and in my experience they're the more junior, less experienced, less savvy legal 'professionals'. I put that in quotes because they've been as rude, inconsiderate, and FDCPA-violating as the $8/hr customer service reps who call. Capital One is notorious for this, they hire out counsel at bargain basement prices and gun for default judgments. One neat thing - most CapOne rentalawyers will immediately move to dismiss the case (typically w/prejudice) if you pull the arbitration level, because once the case is stayed by the judge, CapOne fires the local counsel and doesn't re-hire them for a period of time.

jassi007 posted:

One other odd question, one of her credit cards is with Walmart, who she works for. My sister thinks she could have a problem if she stopped paying that one. Any idea? Will Walmart come after her through her wages since she is an employee?

They'd need a garnishment to take wages, which would come after a court case and legal judgment in the bank's favor. What she'll want to check is if Wal-Mart itself has some kind of contractual clause that gives them grounds to terminate employment if you're not paying the card. Something of a different scenario, but I used to work for a major credit card company and was given access to their premier tier of cards despite my (at the time) bad credit. However, we were told at orientation that if any of our credit accounts with the company (be they from before we started working there, or one of the store-only cards they managed) ended up defaulting, that was something you could be immediately terminated for. I'd be surprised if Wal-Mart does the same thing, but it's worth checking out.

iceaim
May 20, 2001

The Flying Clog Wog posted:

What would happen if you were to move back to the US?

I wouldn't be able to open a US bank account under my own name, that's for sure. But opening an offshore bank account is actually still pretty easy these days. It's not so easy for creditors to actually discover offshore bank accounts, and they're legal as long as you pay your taxes.

I'm never going to move back to the US though. I'm pretty well settled down in HK.

FyRe
Jul 28, 2003

I gotta stop laughing or I'll run out of room.
I've been ignoring about $5k in debt for about 6 months now. The reason mostly being that I've been couch drifting and so I don't have a physical address. How hosed am I? My question is basically how can I be sued if gov't doesn't even know where I live? I have no assets of garnishable wages to speak of. I tutor under the table.

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

FyRe posted:

I've been ignoring about $5k in debt for about 6 months now. The reason mostly being that I've been couch drifting and so I don't have a physical address. How hosed am I? My question is basically how can I be sued if gov't doesn't even know where I live? I have no assets of garnishable wages to speak of. I tutor under the table.

You can't be sued if you can't be served, but that won't stop some collectors. Some will do it the right way - hiring skip tracers and trying to find you via last known addresses. Others might claim you were served and move to the suit/default judgment anyway (if this happens, you have an open and shut case to have the judgment vacated.) Also, once you have a permanent address (and if the debt is still in statute) expect whoever owns your debt to come after it.

FyRe
Jul 28, 2003

I gotta stop laughing or I'll run out of room.

CubsWoo posted:

You can't be sued if you can't be served, but that won't stop some collectors. Some will do it the right way - hiring skip tracers and trying to find you via last known addresses. Others might claim you were served and move to the suit/default judgment anyway (if this happens, you have an open and shut case to have the judgment vacated.) Also, once you have a permanent address (and if the debt is still in statute) expect whoever owns your debt to come after it.
how can I find out if I have any judgments against me? If it makes a difference my last permanent address was in GA and I live in NY now.

Edit - thanks a lot!

FyRe fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jan 11, 2010

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

FyRe posted:

how can I find out if I have any judgments against me? If it makes a difference my last permanent address was in GA and I live in NY now.

Check your credit report, and check the county courthouses where you've lived. Many courthouses have online searches, or you can call the clerk's office.

TheWevel
Apr 14, 2002
Send Help; Trapped in Stupid Factory
What's the best way to go about getting a charge-off removed from my credit report? It's from the City of San Diego and it's from parking tickets. I live in Georgia now. I was thinking of sending them a letter and doing a pay for deletion. Anybody ever dealt with a city before? It's only on my Experian report but since it's a charge off and not a collection I think it's hurting my score more.

TWiNKiE
Nov 18, 2002

Daah, I heard that!

FyRe posted:

I have no assets of garnishable wages to speak of. I tutor under the table.
Everything CubsWoo said, but on this point... you presumably will, someday.

Someday between now and the SOL running out, you (hopefully) will have a (semi)permanent place to live, a checking account, and so on. The fact that you don't have them today is not a guarantee that they can't try tomorrow.

TheWevel posted:

What's the best way to go about getting a charge-off removed from my credit report? It's from the City of San Diego and it's from parking tickets. I live in Georgia now. I was thinking of sending them a letter and doing a pay for deletion. Anybody ever dealt with a city before? It's only on my Experian report but since it's a charge off and not a collection I think it's hurting my score more.
That's... odd.

I know cities are doing interesting things with tolls and parking, but a charge-off is a tax thing. Unless the city extended credit to you and wrote it off of their taxes as uncollectible, it isn't a charge-off.

So, you could send a letter to Experian saying it's reporting wrong. You could make a combo out of the dispute and say that it's reporting wrong, and you want everything else verified, because you think the line itself is bad.

TheWevel
Apr 14, 2002
Send Help; Trapped in Stupid Factory

TWiNKiE posted:

I know cities are doing interesting things with tolls and parking, but a charge-off is a tax thing. Unless the city extended credit to you and wrote it off of their taxes as uncollectible, it isn't a charge-off.

So, you could send a letter to Experian saying it's reporting wrong. You could make a combo out of the dispute and say that it's reporting wrong, and you want everything else verified, because you think the line itself is bad.

Yeah it's reporting that the credit limit was $90, and that $138 is past due. A while ago, I tried disputing the debt as "not mine" (which I admit was dumb) with Experian but of course the city came back and verified it as mine. That's why I was thinking of doing a pay for deletion.

edit: Coincidentally the mailing address for the city contains "Suite 666" which I feel is pretty appropriate for the meter readers there.

TheWevel fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jan 12, 2010

Iron Squid
Nov 23, 2005

by Ozmaugh

CubsWoo posted:

Others might claim you were served and move to the suit/default judgment anyway (if this happens, you have an open and shut case to have the judgment vacated.)

Just for the sake of argument, how would a company show that you were properly served?

Also, is it worth it to dispute any and all negative information on my credit report on the off chance that some of it gets removed? If so what's the best way to go about doing this?

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CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU

Iron Squid posted:

Just for the sake of argument, how would a company show that you were properly served?
Proof of service is generally just an affidavit from the person who served you, where, and when. To get the judgment vacated, you need to show that you weren't properly served, and it depends on the state as to what constitutes 'proper service.' In my state, service must be made in person to the defendant or someone living with you at your address. In other states, they can do a 'nail and mail' where they slip a copy of the summons under the door and send a copy of it to your last known address. This still isn't proper service if you don't live there, though. If you try to vacate on the basis of improper service, they'd likely use the affidavit and maybe the personal testimony of who served you. You'd have to show (through records or personal witnesses) that you didn't live at that address and didn't get a copy of the summons, but from talking to people as long as you have some proof you weren't at that address many judges will vacate judgments based on a actual improper service.

quote:

Also, is it worth it to dispute any and all negative information on my credit report on the off chance that some of it gets removed? If so what's the best way to go about doing this?
This usually doesn't work. At best, you'll have a record or 2 drop off for a bit, then go back on once the collector notices. If you want to try anyway, check the bureaus for their addresses and the dispute procedure.

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