If only Frog could have kept WCW afloat

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > If only Frog could have kept WCW afloat

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Who Killed WCW?
	Eric Bischoff
	Hulk Hogan
	Vince Russo
	Jerusalem

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

A few things are out of order and you perpetuate a few unfounded rumors, but that's actually a really awesome right up. Thanks for this.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 02:55

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 04:47

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I'm not getting it either, but nobody can even substantiate the birdshit ad rumor. Nobody has it, nobody remembers seeing it, and nobody can find the issue of the observer that quote was supposedly lifted from. I wouldn't put much stock in it.

That being said, tons of workers have verified the story of Bischoff thinking the new logos and sets would save the company.

Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

edit: from the old thread.

MassRayPer posted:

It is easy to make mistakes when trying to find logic in what WCW did. I've tried to argue the finger poke was a totally logical storyline in the past and well... you can imagine how well that went.

I've done the very same. It was a decent idea with loving terrible execution.

LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Dec 28, 2009

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 03:01

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

dusty udder smoker posted:

so if you actually saw the observer with this quote you'd finally believe the truth?

Nope. Now I just know it's something that's been printed in a dirt sheet, which while it does give it a tad more credibility, proves approximately dick.

With backstage stories, you always have to take them with a grain of salt, but with something like this, there's the possibility for real and tangible proof and nobody has a scan of the ad, nobody remembers ever seeing it, and I've never heard it even mentioned outside of this board.

It's really not a big deal. I don't have to believe it and you can if you like, but posting about it as absolute fact is a bit ignorant.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 04:46

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

How could you not include Jamie Kellner in the poll seeing as how he's the guy who actually killed WCW?

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 05:08

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Had he not pulled the shows, the company would have been sold to Fusient and Eric Bischoff, leaving the huge contracts such as Nash Hogan and Hart with AOL Time Warner.

Without Jamie Kellner, WCW may have survived and become much, much better.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 05:27

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

tzirean posted:

Citation? Only source I can find says the opposite.

The Fusient deal certainly would not have followed the same rules as the deal Vince signed.

Whelp. That ruins my point entirely. I just remember the buyout rumor for Fusient was that Bischoff was going to launch with DDP and Shawn O'hare as top stars. I figured that meant they'd not have the bigger names.

MassRayPer posted:

Bischoff and Fusient had been trying to buy the company for three months, and by March it had become obvious that Fusient was not what Bischoff had made it out to be. Fusient hadn't made close to the level of an investment before and the company was less than a year old when this whole thing went down. The whole thing was sketchy and AOL-Time Warner got sick of Bischoff and his flakey backers.

I've never read that part. Where'd you hear this?

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 10:28

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

MassRayPer posted:

When this happened what I had always heard was the reason the January deal fell through was one of the financial backers, whether it was Fusient or some other partner backed out. So they had to come up with new funding, but the deal was still presumed to be going on, they just needed to sure up their financing. This was a company that was brand new and hadn't done a deal close to this magnitude before. This was just the talk of the time, and a quick search shows the same basic story, but I have no idea where I first heard it. It was just what WCW fans talked about at the time.

What doesn't really fit is that Bischoff announced Nitro's "Night of Champions" on the Nitro before the final one. (Maybe it was two weeks before.) The deal had been completed and Bischoff was already a part of the company at most two weeks before Vince showed up on Nitro. If the Fusient deal failed in January, what was he doing there?

The story I've always heard, in Death of WCW and from Bischoff himself on the Monday Night Wars roundtable, is that Fusient was hesitant, but they got the company after three months of due diligence and what-not. They had signed some papers. It was all but theirs. Then Kellner, despite being in a position of his company not having to pay for WCW's failures anymore, canceled the show. Without the timeslots, the company was worthless and due to Fusient's already hesitant position on the matter, weren't interested in having Bischoff shop the show to USA or any other cable network. The deal was dead in the water without a timeslot.

Edit: I looked it up. Bischoff announced the Night of Champions on the very last Nitro before Vince showed up.

LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Dec 28, 2009

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 11:35

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

ColeM posted:

The Goldberg job was to benefit himself(+30,000 attendance = Hogan of course.). Kevin Nash took the reign as booker and killed Goldberg's momentum and gave the title back to Hogan on a silver platter. Goldberg was getting beat down every week, yet a year prior he was handling the NWO by himself.

Kevin Nash didn't get the book until well after the finger-poke of doom.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2009 23:58

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Whatever you guys are quoting sounds bad rear end.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 00:52

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Seriously, though. What's going on here?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 01:04

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Fightstar Lyrics?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 01:16

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

gently caress. I haven't seen Blade Runner in 20 years.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 01:24

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Moose Bigelow posted:

The book "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" was way better than that piece of poo poo movie. The original movie followed the book but test audiences hated it so they went with the copout ending of them falling in love.

I saw the Director's cut first. It made zero sense and the entire film was so dark (in lighting) it drove me nuts. A few years later I saw the original and liked it.

I've heard that the Director's cut is better, but everybody I've ever heard who says that has also seen the original and knows what the film is about, so saying the second is better is a bit of a stretch as they'd have no idea what it was like to see it first. But I just absolutely refuse to see a movie about Jim Hellwig and Steve Borden hunting down Terminators in post-apocalyptic Atlanta.

Actually, that sounds pretty awesome.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 01:44

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Anybody else find it hilarious that while this thread is flourishing, the TNA thread has died completely?

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 02:06

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

STAC Goat posted:

I never interpreted as JJ actually not knowing Sting wanted Hogan, just that JJ was handcuffed legally by Hogan's lawyers and Bischoff's contracts and all that stuff and he couldn't just sign "Sting vs Hogan".

He said as much if memory serves, which it often doesn't, I'm learning the hard way.

Lone Rogue posted:

Time Warner AOL: Publicly traded crazy billionaire money
Panda Energy: Private crazy billionaire money

Well WCW started out just being owned by Ted Turner before he lost control to Time Warner, which became AOL Time Warner, so give this one time. TNA may be owned by Comcast or MTV any year now.

TL posted:

You rated this thread '5'! Great job, go hog wild!

Supposedly, they're also going back to a traditional four-sided ring for the Hulkster. So their way of providing a true alternative to WWE is to slowly remove anything that might somewhat differentiate them from WWE.

This is hardly fair. Name one person who thinks the six-sided ring is a great idea.

Free Market Gravy posted:

You have to qualify to hang something first by voting this thread a 5. Then all other posters are placed on probation for 2 minutes.

UNLESS the person you're pinning has already voted five OR been put on probation for two minutes. In which case, this thread becomes a reverse-voting thread, wherein forums-members post from the bottom-to-the-top.

Page snypers must then snipe their page from the bottom of their page.

Taking into account the fact that individual posters have individual post-per-page limits, those left over still wishing to vote the thread a 5 must-

Y'know what?

Just go to the WWE Discussion Thread.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 11:20

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Normally I'd agree, Snoopy, but given the state of the loving company right now, the LAST thing they want is people flipping thought he channels and thinking, "Oh. It's wrestling, but it's not real* wrestling."

*real meaning actual fake wrestling or WWE to be more precise.

Maybe at least this way they'll get a few people who think, "Oh man! Hogan, RVD and Kennedy are back in WWE!"

# ¿ Dec 29, 2009 13:56

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Grandpa Pap posted:

Short of something like Ted Turner going bankrupt, WCW would probably STILL be around today if Turner hadn't sold Time Warner to AOL (and thus become less involved in the running of the business). At worst, it was a tax writeoff for Turner; at best, he was actually able to beat Vince McMahon at his own game, if only for a while.

Just to be clear, Turner didn't sell Time Warner to AOL. Not only was he not in charge of Time Warner, but AOL's buyout of Time Warner was a hostile takeover.

# ¿ Jan 1, 2010 02:38

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

To the point that fans started rushing the ring.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2010 10:43

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

There is when it was working. I find the idea ridiculous and irritating, but talking about the nWo and promoting the upcoming main-event during a Lizmark Jr. Vs. El Dandy match didn't exactly ruin the show. Undercarders with angles were usually talked about. Jericho, Kidman, Mysterio, Guerrerro, Benoit and the like. The announcers rarely ignored them.

Basically, instead of having a segment where there was no wrestling that did nothing but put over the main-event of the evening, they would have a decent match on for the wrestling fans and would talk up the main-event in the commentary booth.

It sounds great on paper, actually, but I still found it tacky.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2010 06:35

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Skinty McEdger posted:

The worst of it was that for a lot of the undercard the matches were all they had. There were a lot of wrestlers in WCW that weren't involved in storylines for long stretches and by not paying attention to their matches it only served to underline how unimportant they were.

The thing is, you're right about how it felt at the time. Now, though, I miss having random two guys who've never been in big angles just going out and having a match. Every match now seems to be made by a GM after the show starts and every match is a grudge match. I kind of miss seeing two random guys like Norman Smiley and Steven Regal having a match. Working excellent matches in this way and getting the crowd to like you with what limited time you had was the way to get pushed in WCW if you weren't already a star and weren't willing to slob Bischoff's knob. It helped make wrestling feel like an actual sport, which I did.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2010 01:50

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Jerusalem posted:

Watch Superstars on Thursday, solid midcard wrestlers and curtainjerkers getting 8-12 minute long matches (sometimes longer) usually with no other reason than having a good match.

I don't have cable, but I suppose I should. I kind of miss it on big shows, though. I've always hated that in kayfabe, the company starts a live television show without any scheduled matches about half the time.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2010 06:55

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Mister E posted:

Norman Smiley was the greatest Hardcore champion of all time and I'll hear nothing to the contrary.

"I am so hardcore I once drank milk two days past expiration."

So awesome.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2010 00:50

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:

Not only that, she also had her massive implants removed.

Good for her. Implants look and feel gross.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2010 12:10

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

FishBulb posted:

On the best coast, erh, I mean west coast, Nitro was on at 5 and when it was over Raw started so I just watched both, BACK TO BACK TO BACK like a good little smark.

They stopped doing this in '98 or '99 and IMMEDIATELY started losing the ratings war, yet nobody ever brings this up.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2010 05:56

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

FishBulb posted:

That's weird I don't remember them stopping I guess I must have taped one and watched the other.

It was when all of TNT and TBS stopped broadcasting Eastern times even on the West Coast.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2010 15:43

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

That sounds about right.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2010 06:59

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

CombineThresher posted:

Really? It isn't much different from his promo voice.

Randy has a normal voice?

Can we get some clips for these?

# ¿ Jan 10, 2010 08:04

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Let me tell you a dumb WCW story. This is a rumor I hope isn't true.

What's this? LIVIDLIQUID is telling a dumb WCW story?

Yes, sir.

In 1998 on the Nitro just after Fall Brawl when Raven's Flock broke up, Billy Kidman got the biggest push of his career. He won the cruiserweight title and continued said push. It lasted well over a year.

WCW hired Mikey Whipwreck from ECW in 1999. Why? Because he was talented? No. They hired him because he held a pinfall victory over Stone Cold Steve Austin.

WCW debuted Whipwreck after months of speculation in an unannounced PPV match against Billy Kidman with no hype whatsoever. Rumor has it Whipwreck made money in the six-figure range.

Why would they do this, you ask? Was the man talented? Sure. Was his contract the result of said talent?

No.

So why?

So they could say their Cruiserweight champion beat a man clean who had beaten the WWF's heavyweight champion. Did they ever bring it up on television?

No. WCW never even mentioned the victory over Stone Cold outside of postings on their website and broadcasts on WCW Live.

Go WCW.

# ¿ Jan 11, 2010 14:18

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

MassRayPer posted:

It isn't who you'd think!

It was who I thought. Yes. Worse than an actor who at least enjoys wrestling, starred in your movie, is a huge fan of your company, and donated all of his money to wrestlers' widows.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2010 10:06

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Super Dan posted:

I believe his name was Se7en. And it was really more like Dustin Runnels as Undertaker 2.0

Worse. 7ven. That's right. Sevenven.

Oddly, it wasn't Russo's bag. It was happening a few months before he showed up. He's the one who put the kibosh on it.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2010 11:05

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Super Dan posted:

Ready to Rumble is now on Netflix Watch Instantly in case anyone is just dying to see it again.

I actually like that movie okay. It was better-booked than WCW was at the time and it's better than a lot of movies that come out nowadays.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2010 11:08

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

That's actually incredibly simple. Get the belt, leave with the belt. What's difficult about it? The only thing they hosed up was everything else.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2010 08:53

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying the idea is incredibly stupid and the only decent idea in the whole mess is the get belt, leave with belt part.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2010 09:49

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

ChikoDemono posted:

So, do you have to be the original person to obtain the belt or simply walk out with it? If the latter, what's to stop someone from just waiting at the bottom for the schmuck with the belt and jack him? Hell, what's the point of getting the belt if that occurs?

(Never seen the match, so I have no idea how it worked)

You just explained almost exactly what happened. Watch the video.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2010 10:37

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

CVagts posted:

The best part is that there are teams, but there is one individual winner. So what the gently caress are the teams for?

The last Wargames before this had the same drat problem. The guy who scored the pinfall (Page) got a title shot. It was a zero-sum game, so why the teams?

# ¿ Jan 21, 2010 17:04

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Strawberry Panda posted:

Why even have this match if Nash was already champion and all that happened in this match is that they all worked together to keep Nash champion?

Johnny, tell him what he's won!

# ¿ Jan 22, 2010 09:42

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I SAID DID YOU FOR FORGET YOUR SCISSORS, NEODOOMIUM?!

Still gets me too.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2010 00:16

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Women's Cruiserweight title pretty much made to help along the relationship between WCW and New Japan? As in it was never meant to be defended here?

# ¿ Jan 23, 2010 05:05

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

X-Sgt. Zypygski posted:

I was at that show. It was pretty clear that the bad guys were in the ring (they were with Russo and Bischoff! How much more clear does it need to be that they're the heels?) and we were supposed to be cheering for the lineup of all the longtime big stars of WCW standing on the ramp.

Wait, we weren't? Seriously?

Yeah, the crowd was going to boo Sting and DDP standing up to the evil management.

Do any of you have any reason to believe that the New Blood were supposed to be anything but heels aside from, "I want WCW to have been dumber than they already were, god dammit!"

New Blood were always the heels. If you think otherwise you're a loving retard.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2010 11:35

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 04:47

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Jerusalem posted:

Now to WCW's credit, I guess they realized as SOME point along the way that the New Blood were going down like a lead balloon and sounded like a bunch of whiney, entitled assholes and shifted things around at some point - but on that reboot night, the intention was obviously for the fans to be good little "castmembers" and accept/understand/intuit that the old guys were bad guys and the young guys were good guys, and they executed it loving horribly.

Then why did the New Blood cheat to win in just about every match that night and do things like force the Millionaire's Club to come out without music or pyro, then make fun of them all night?

# ¿ Jan 24, 2010 16:09

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