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Z3n posted:I'm sorry, but it's loving retarded to be doing 40mph on an oversized bicycle on the freeway. Dead...loving...retarded. The Article posted:According to reports from the family and Oregon State Police, just after 7 p.m. on Nov. 27, a 1999 Audi A4 driven by a 20-year-old woman passed an 18-wheeler, and then pulled back into the slow lane while still traveling at speed. She hit Abbott’s Enertia from behind at 68 mph, knocking him from the bike and across three lanes of traffic.
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Jan 3, 2010 09:20
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Phat_Albert posted:Honestly, no, I'm not excited. I'm not threadshitting either, I've given it a lot of thought, and really tried to make myself excited for electric bikes over the past few years. I'm in the same boat. For slightly different reasons. First, bikes need VERY high energy density to make sense. Electric isn't. The motors are, but the storage mediums suck. Electric cars work, because cars in general are crap for density. So, you don't have much energy to work with. In a car, you can do a lot of things to help that. Regenerative braking. Aerodynamic tweaks. Just adding more batteries. Low rolling resistance tires. Careful driving. Which is great on a car... especially FWD. But that all goes pear shaped on a bike. Regenerative braking isn't wonderfully progressive like friction brakes are. That's a very bad thing on a bike. Also, weight transfer takes traction from the rear wheel, which means it can extract less energy from the ground. Also bad. So this means you need at least a 2wd motorcycle to use regen well. But that makes it heavier. And needs bigger batteries... It's a losing battle. It could work for a big cruiser, but not much else. Bikes are aerodynamic bricks. We all know this. It takes a lot to make a bike aerodynamic. It "can" be done, but there are major sacrifices that get made. control in crosswinds is one of them. Drop survivability is another. Weight too. Okey, so we have a brick that can't save energy, or recharge itself easily. Lets add more batteries. Well, that sucks, because batteries are heavy. Low rolling resistance tires. That's a euphemism for "low traction tires." If I need to go further than that, you should get back in your prius. And then there's the whole it doesn't sound right, and it doesn't feel right thing.
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Jan 3, 2010 09:24
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I bring this up in every electric bikes thread: http://www.vectrix.com/products/2009_vx-1/  I've seen at least 3 different ones on the road so far, so they're viable if you live in a city.
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Jan 3, 2010 17:59
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Jabs posted:Alas...woman pulls around semi, blindsides rider with a rear-end collision. I don't care what you're on, the outcome is going to be similar to this. Actually, if you're moving with the flow of traffic on a 65mph freeway, it's drat near impossible to be rear ended at 68mph. It's bad riding practice to be moving slower than the speed of traffic. It's loving moronic to ride a bike that cannot achieve the speed of traffic on a freeway. It puts you at extreme risk. Is the woman at fault for rear ending him? By the law, yes. But who was at fault doesn't matter when you're dead or in the hospital.
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Jan 3, 2010 18:45
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No, I am not as ridiculously excited about electric motorcycles as you are.
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Jan 3, 2010 20:10
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I can kinda see the excitement, but I think any new technology is interesting. But it should not seem so odd that people are often more moved by visceral things than logic. I wouldn't be so quick to paint people who say "I like the sound of engines and the feel of shifting" as a bunch of troglodytes who won't get with the times. Hell, Phil, your own garage has a low-tech, obsolete Ford moneysink in it, where's the logic in that? And who's complaining? Motorcycling IS visceral, it's what attracts a lot of us to it. And since the range, power, and fuel economy is already great as compared to cars, I'm happy to wait until electric bikes mature. Now commuters, that's a different story. I was just in a place where electric scooters were everywhere, and they made a lot of sense.
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Jan 3, 2010 22:33
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I'm more excited for electric bicycles that aren't stupid hard to pedal. Once batteries get light you could have a massive dirt jumper; or better yet, a downhill bike that you don't have to drag up the hill.
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Jan 4, 2010 02:31
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I think a viable electric dirt-bike would be pretty exciting... Imagine tearing up trails on a (nearly) silent motorcycle without pissing off any angry hill-billies, rednecks, gun-nuts, land-owners, conservationists, etc, etc... Off-road bikes can be pretty loud out in the woods, and there's always a battle between riders and everyone around them. It's hard to be angry when you don't know something exists in the first place.
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Jan 5, 2010 00:06
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Maybe we can conclude that an electric bike with equal performance to a gas bike would be worth getting very excited about, but they aren't so it isn't. Short-ish commute is the only thing that's served by the market at the moment.
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Jan 5, 2010 13:37
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I wanna have a go on one.
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Jan 5, 2010 17:21
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I guess I'm just being misunderstood since most of you are bringing up the same points again and again. You can be excited for the possibilities of a technology while not being in love with what is currently available. I'm excited for the possibilities of instant power, longer range than currently available on a single "fill up", effortless engine swaps and power upgrades, improved public image due to no longer being a public nuisance and gross sound polluter, etc... Either way, I got my answer. The majority of CA doesn't give a poo poo about electric bikes until they perform like a super sport, have the range of a cruiser, and can triple the whoops like a supercross bike. Oh, they also need to sound like ICE equipped bikes as well as having a transmission so you can feel like you are a part of the soul and passion. phishnut posted:I think a viable electric dirt-bike would be pretty exciting... Imagine tearing up trails on a (nearly) silent motorcycle without pissing off any angry hill-billies, rednecks, gun-nuts, land-owners, conservationists, etc, etc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBJqrXuujPM
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Jan 5, 2010 19:37
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Do electric bikes use a chain/shaft drive?
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Jan 5, 2010 19:43
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blugu64 posted:Do electric bikes use a chain/shaft drive? Most use a chain.
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Jan 5, 2010 19:48
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frozenphil posted:I guess I'm just being misunderstood since most of you are bringing up the same points again and again. You can be excited for the possibilities of a technology while not being in love with what is currently available. I'm excited for the possibilities of instant power, longer range than currently available on a single "fill up", effortless engine swaps and power upgrades, improved public image due to no longer being a public nuisance and gross sound polluter, etc... I can't find it in myself to get excited about your pipe dream. Nevermind all the counterpoints already mentioned throughout the thread - what possibly makes you think there will be 'effortless engine swaps and power upgrades'? I imaging most electric bikes will be engineered around specific components and will probably be as difficult, if not more difficult to modify compared to current ICE technology. Then you'll have custom controller logic and a pile of other hurdles to deal with.
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Jan 5, 2010 19:49
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frozenphil posted:I guess I'm just being misunderstood since most of you are bringing up the same points again and again. You can be excited for the possibilities of a technology while not being in love with what is currently available. I'm excited for the possibilities of instant power, longer range than currently available on a single "fill up", effortless engine swaps and power upgrades, improved public image due to no longer being a public nuisance and gross sound polluter, etc... Except that half the reason that the hippies hate motorcycles is that they tear up the trails and the land. Sound is definitely a big part of it, but there's a lot of other factors there too. quote:Either way, I got my answer. The majority of CA doesn't give a poo poo about electric bikes until they perform like a super sport, have the range of a cruiser, and can triple the whoops like a supercross bike. Oh, they also need to sound like ICE equipped bikes as well as having a transmission so you can feel like you are a part of the soul and passion. The reason CA doesn't give a poo poo is all of the positives you list are generally a pipe dream. You can already have "instant power", go buy a bike that makes instant power, like a B12 or a Hayabusa, or a big single. It's going to take years if not decades of design and development needed before they can be anything but interesting little commute toys in very limited situations. The fact is: Electric brings a host of disadvantages to the table, and until those are sorted out, you can't expect anyone to take it seriously. Not pictured: 20 minutes later when he has to sit for 4 hours.
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Jan 5, 2010 19:52
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Relevant regarding engines and alternate power vehicles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKcjOjCwdNA \/\/\/ D'oh, even saw that in related videos. Awesome though. James may squidding it up on an 8 HP electric bike. FlerpNerpin fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jan 5, 2010 |
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Jan 5, 2010 20:12
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Relevant regarding engines and alternate power vehicles and motorcycles and also James May. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhlwuSs6uPM
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Jan 5, 2010 20:26
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Phil. I see the possibilities, and I'm down. Right now, *today*, the Brammo Enertia or the Zero-S would fit my commuter-bike needs (if not my budget, exactly) quite nicely. In 1996, the only reasonable electric car you could get was something you converted on your own, using lovely lead-acid batteries. 5 years later, you could walk into your local dealer and buy a Honda Insight, or a Toyota Prius. 5 years later, you could get an Accord, a Civic, a Prius, an Escape/Mariner, a 400h, a Highlander, and a *Silverado*. 4 years later, there are 47 Hybrids/Electric vehicles available for sale. I figure that 2010 is where automotive hybrids were in 2000. You've got the Enertia and the Zero, and those represent the same kinds of compromises you had to suck up to trade your Mercedes Benz in on a Prius in 2001. There will always be compromises to be made. I wouldn't take a Prius on a cross-country trip if you paid me handsomely. I wouldn't take a Prius to the autocross, nor would I particularly want to commute in one (having driven one across town on I-25 once was more than enough) I knew I'd hate the Prius when I saw it in 2001. Still do. Doesn't meet the requirements I have for a car. There are cars now that I'd buy without feeling overly compromised, however. I expect the development of the cycle market to track similarly, considering that there simply *wasn't* an electic cycle to be had 5 years ago.
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Jan 5, 2010 20:47
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The fact that he can remove the power cell and have it act as a generator all on it's lonesome is pretty cool. Pity that it's hydrogen powered, though...my least favorite alternative fuel. Lotta downsides. Plus those tires seem a little terrifying. It seems more like an overbuilt bicycle than a proper, road going motorcycle. That's the other problem with electrics so far...everything seems underbuilt, even compared to boring, vanilla commuter bikes. The brakes are undersized, the wheels are odd sizes, just make something standard and normal. Then you can take advantage of modern motorcycle tire development, modern motorcycle braking components, etc. Jabs posted:I expect the development of the cycle market to track similarly, considering that there simply *wasn't* an electic cycle to be had 5 years ago. I don't...there's no massive giant bike makers and think tanks dumping money into electric motorcycles. And hybrids are a much different beast than pure electrics...look at how well the Tesla has(n't) turned out. That's the problem...there's a lot of R&D that needs to go into boosting the energy density of batteries before you can say that electricity is viable, or you're simply relying on "alternative power", like hydrogen or something else. Traditional gas hybrids aren't viable on motorcycles either, they're simply not big enough. Z3n fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jan 5, 2010 |
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Jan 5, 2010 20:47
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gently caress it, I'll say it. I fear change, and am a grumpy 70 year old at heart.
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Jan 5, 2010 20:51
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blugu64 posted:gently caress it, I'll say it. I fear change, and am a grumpy 70 year old at heart. I don't fear change, I just want things that are better than what we have now. I'd sign up for Hiro's bike from Snow Crash in a heartbeat. The problem is that electrics have some very fundamental issues that make them poo poo for 99% of riders, and ignoring that is just being blinded by 
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Jan 5, 2010 20:54
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frozenphil posted:I guess I'm just being misunderstood since most of you are bringing up the same points again and again. You can be excited for the possibilities of a technology while not being in love with what is currently available. I'm excited for the possibilities of instant power, longer range than currently available on a single "fill up", effortless engine swaps and power upgrades, improved public image due to no longer being a public nuisance and gross sound polluter, etc... This is like an AI thread where someone asks what car to get but already has one in mind and wont listen to anything anyone says. We get it, you're excited about the future of electric bike technology. A future which may or may not arrive at a time when some people do or dont think it will. Forgive us for not making GBS threads our pants over it. No one ever said that a bike had to be a supersport, dirtbike and tourer all in one, obviously there will be different electric bikes built for different purposes. What people mean is that they want an electric supersport to at least live up to its IC counterparts, same with tourers and dirtbikes. And whats so wrong with liking IC engines and transmissions? You're acting all smug like we're cavemen for enjoying a technology that isnt as futuristic as your amazing electric bike. Dont be that guy who rides a segway and shits all over everyone for using plebian things like feet and cars. As has been mentioned. We already have bikes with instant on power. We already have bikes with long range, and you're banking on longer range provided by a technology that doesnt and isnt guaranteed to exist. Engine swaps wont be effortless. These arent legos. Power upgrades will come at a cost just like any other technology. There is no free lunch for anyone. Improved public image is the only thing that might come of this. You're so hung up on what you think the future will bring that you cant see the road to get there. The conversation is borderline pointless. I'm excited for flying cars, living on other planets, public space travel, all kinds of other stuff that we have done in limited amounts, but our current technology does not allow for. Sure it makes for interesting conversation, but its not worth getting all huffy and spergy over.
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Jan 5, 2010 21:28
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Z3n posted:Traditional gas hybrids aren't viable on motorcycles either, they're simply not big enough.  =) Is it a supersport? No. Would it sell in the US? Perhaps to the scooter crowd. Is it a stepping stone toward the future? You bet!
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Jan 5, 2010 23:40
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Z3n posted:The fact that he can remove the power cell and have it act as a generator all on it's lonesome is pretty cool. What downsides are you referring to? Off the top of my head I think of the danger of a pressurized tank in your trunk and the fact that there's not a lot of fuel stations yet, but the latter wouldn't be a problem as fuel stations compete and start supplying it most places. Are they also poo poo for fuel economy? The only other alternative fuels I can think of are either just different forms of fossil fuel or, in the case of ethanol, end up increasing the price of corn.
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Jan 5, 2010 23:57
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Slim Pickens posted:What downsides are you referring to? Off the top of my head I think of the danger of a pressurized tank in your trunk and the fact that there's not a lot of fuel stations yet, but the latter wouldn't be a problem as fuel stations compete and start supplying it most places. Are they also poo poo for fuel economy? The only other alternative fuels I can think of are either just different forms of fossil fuel or, in the case of ethanol, end up increasing the price of corn. First, the creation of hydrogen is still very expensive and resource consuming. You're just transferring your pollution around, and it requires so much energy as to be arguably just as bad as just driving a car around. We need to have a much more efficient process for making hydrogen before we get too excited about it. These guys also explain it better than I can...basically, the energy density of hydrogen isn't great, and pressurized tanks are needed, which introduces another potentially dangerous element into an already dangerous equation. http://planetforlife.com/h2/h2swiss.html I haven't researched the other alternative fuels enough to really have a good opinion on it. In an ideal world, we'd have awesome batteries and natural power of some sort...but that's a long way off. I'm curious as to where development will go, we obviously can't rely on gasoline and oil forever, we need to develop a cohesive overall strategy where people don't just pick a car, they pick a power source as well. Maybe your commuter will be electric and your pleasure vehicle will be a hybrid. The solution isn't in one fuel system, it's in making them all work together in a fashion that's best for us and the environment. *rides off in a cloud of 2 stroke smoke* Jabs posted:What? I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the humming noise those ingenious Tech Support Indians are making over yonder. That is loving awesome. This is what I want to see...you're using the power of gas and electric engines to make something BETTER. THIS IS THE BIKE, PHIL. Cheap, 280MPG (  ), 900$, and basically, it kicks the gently caress out of a CT90, the basic transportation the world over. If it's reliable enough to go head to head with that, this is the future. loving electrics. I'd buy the gently caress out of that just on principal...280mpg. That's loving amazing. Edit: All of this assumes that it's a legitimate 280 miles per gallon. I'd install a 10 gallon tank and drive around Priuses at gas stations, being the smuggest motherfucker on the planet. Edit2: http://members.shaw.ca/cspindler/hobbies/motorcycles/Articles/dieselbike.html Royal Enfield Diesel. 200mpg, no plugs. 
Z3n fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jan 6, 2010 |
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Jan 6, 2010 00:51
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I want my motorcycle to be powered by cold fusion, thank you. 
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Jan 6, 2010 05:52
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frozenphil posted:
The majority of CA doesn't give a poo poo about electric bikes until they can buy one and ride it. There simply isn't a bike on the market at current, or for the foreseeable future (10years) that anyone in CA could buy and use as a motorbike. By that i mean something with 2 wheels that i can commute to work on, go to the shops on, or go for a long weekend ride on. Current batteries simply do not allow this. I can buy a smug fagot 'commuter' that can take me 20miles on a highway, but can i goto the shops or hop over to a mates place after work? Can i jump on my bike and go for a relaxing ride? No. You can't do a loving thing on these bikes because the range is so poo poo. You could buy a second bike for anything other than the commute, but then your 9000$ electric bike now costs you 15000$. Unless you really never leave a 15mile radius of your house, and want to completely upend your life to a 10 mile range and PAY for this privilege, then these things don't work. Dubs fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jan 6, 2010 |
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Jan 6, 2010 06:52
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Dubs posted:Unless you really never leave a 15mile radius of your house, and want to completely upend your life to a 10 mile range and PAY for this privilege, then these things don't work. You say this as if you could only own one bike at a time 
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Jan 6, 2010 07:40
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The only way the limited battery problem could be alleviated right now is to have battery stations as opposed to gas stations. You pay $3 and exchange your dead battery for a fresh one. It still costs more per mile than the cheapest bike, and battery quality or charge would be questionable in most cases, but it's the closest to making these bikes realistic as you can get. But then again for $3 a day, you might as well ride the loving bus.
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Jan 6, 2010 08:52
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blugu64 posted:You say this as if you could only own one bike at a time If you have a second bike, why would you ever ride the electric? Fuel savings will never cover the initial cost, then add registration and insurance each year for the unique privilege of needing to swap bikes all the time? Battery swaps might work for cars, but can you see servo's with battery swaps every 20 miles on a highway anytime soon
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Jan 6, 2010 09:59
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Z3n posted:pressurized tanks are needed, which introduces another potentially dangerous element into an already dangerous equation. I think very few people want to ride a bike with a highly pressurized tank of hydrogen right in the front of their chest, having a gas tank there seems bad enough to most people. quote:I haven't researched the other alternative fuels enough to really have a good opinion on it. Ethanol and biodiesel are pretty obvious drop-in replacements and with enough switchgrass/trash/biological waste and algae to make it from, we could switch over today and most people wouldn't know the difference. I think ethanol will be great for bikes, as the higher octane rating means you can run at a higher compression ratio and get more power from less displacement. Biodiesel is pretty much just like diesel with slightly better lubrication properties, no great changes there. As for hydrogen and electric, I think what's probably going to happen is that we got a lot more series hybrids like the Chevy Volt where the ICE is basically just a generator for the electric drivetrain and only runs when more charge is needed. This segregation means that the ICE can be tuned for peak efficiency in a very narrow RPM range, reducing fuel consumption by a fair margin. But more importantly, it means that the dependency upon the ICE is gone, you can drop in any sort of engine or fuel cell. If it can drive a generator or produce electricity on its own, it can power a series hybrid. Steam, nuclear batteries, rubber bands, you name it. It's sort of a stepping stone towards 100% electric transportation and it's only a matter of time before we see series hybrid motorcycles. I for one can't wait to see what the future brings. Necessity is the mother of invention and we need more and better options within the next 20-30 years.
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Jan 6, 2010 11:19
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KozmoNaut posted:I for one can't wait to see what the future brings. Necessity is the mother of invention and we need more and better options within the next 20-30 years. I'm sorry but there is no in between period during a technological advancement. We go from nothing to cutting edge immediately.
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Jan 6, 2010 16:35
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I for one want to see someone make a viable diesel bike. Yeah we have that MIL-Spec KLR that civilians cant touch, but I want a big name manufacturer to make their own diesel bike. Suzuki, I'm looking at you, you made a run with a rotary, do it with diesel
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Jan 6, 2010 16:38
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Hmmm, would a diesel rotary work? A turbo diesel rotary could be hilarious in a bike.
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Jan 6, 2010 17:01
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frozenphil posted:I'm sorry but there is no in between period during a technological advancement. We go from nothing to cutting edge immediately. I understand you're being sarcastic here, but realistically, this is the way it works in the market. That's why we have things referred to as 'game-changers'. You'll have a pile of products that so-called early adopters will purchase, the profits of which will be used to fund product development so a more general applicable solution can be found. You're willing to be excited about something only the earliest of adopters are willing to live with right now. The rest of us would like to wait, especially since so many 'great ideas' in product development die before reaching general acceptance.
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Jan 6, 2010 17:10
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frozenphil posted:Hmmm, would a diesel rotary work? A turbo diesel rotary could be hilarious in a bike. Theres an apex seal joke in there somewhere.
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Jan 6, 2010 17:35
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One thing I love about the ZeroX company is that they have developed the tech from mountain bikes and made the components to be upgradeable. I would love a ZeroX motorcycle to take on some of the offroad mountainbike trails that prohibit gasoline engines. It would also be a conceivably much lower maintenance dirt bike. And compared to a dirt bike, you don't seem to be losing any power or range. Depending on if ZeroX can get their electric bikes treated like bicycles instead of motorcycles (California treats them as bikes if you set the limiter switch to <30mph), this will offer increased freedom in cities too.
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Jan 6, 2010 17:57
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Phil, I'm with you on this, I'm excited about electric motorcycles and I hope to own one in the future. I know people argue about the visceral sensation of riding a motorcycle but for me, the majority of that feeling doesn't come from the engine moving in between my legs or the sound the bike makes. For me riding a motorcycle is about piloting a vehicle you need to use your whole body to move down the road, the fact that as I'm riding down the road I can smell the smells of being outside. If I come to a stop there's not a door I can close or window to roll up to separate me from the environment, I'm a part of the enviroment. I think this is what makes riding a motorcycle unique than driving a car. An electric motorcycle does all this. The idea of being able to experience all this in near silence seems really cool. I've done some lost distance bicycle riding and while hearing a motorcycle engine do its thing is really nice being on a bicycle reminds me that sometimes it nice to only hear the sound of tires and wind. The thoughts of being able to do that at 50 mph is awesome. The other thing is that an electric vehicle would be practical for me. I drive 10 miles to work in the morning and 10 miles back home at night. I might go run errands one night a week or do it on the weekend. Thing is, all the electric cars are out of my reach as far as price. Also, 99% of the time I drive my car, its just me in there, I'm not carrying a passenger. An electric motorcycle solves those problems. It carries only one or two passengers, so I'm not driving around extra seats that no one is using. Plus the idea of a bike that I can ride back and forth to work and not have to worry about doing engine maintenance is a big plus. Like Jay Leno was saying in the Honda Clarity video, let me use my electric bike on the grind to work during the week and save my gas bike for the weekend when I want to go to the mountains or out in the country. That means that I would have to own two motorcycles but that's not a problem for me, and really, I don't think its much of a problem for the majority of people on this board. Plus there's the part of me that's a geek and gadget nut, and an electric bike is kinda that too. Dubs posted:The majority of CA doesn't give a poo poo about electric bikes until they can buy one and ride it. Do you really go pick up you dry cleaning and groceries on the way home from work on your bike? Its funny but I can see a lot of arguments you and others make against electric bikes be applied to supermotos. I mean you COULD go the shops, go on a long 500 mile ride on a supermoto, but would you really want to? Electric motorcycles don't make sense for a primary motorbike yet, but I think they make a lot of sense for the day to day commute vehicle. I saw a lot of other people make arguments along the lines of, "what if I need to go do something after work?" Well, what if 3 people want to ride with you to go get food? You just got to do some smart planning about what you're doing that day with the vehicle you plan to use. I wouldn't help someone move in my little car either. Also, here is another less well known company working on an electric motorbike. http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/index.php It does 60-70 miles with a range of 35 to 60 miles. I would expect to be able to get 40 miles out of day to day with no problem. Plus they sell an optional quick charger that will charge the battery in 1.5 hours. I imagine you could do an 80% quick charge over a lunch break. If charging stations where more widespread you could charge it while doing your shopping too. 
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Jan 7, 2010 02:38
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Oh, heres the other big thing. I wont buy an electric bike until it comes from a big name. gently caress supporting some homebrew electric bike.
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Jan 7, 2010 02:42
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Phat_Albert posted:Oh, heres the other big thing. I wont buy an electric bike until it comes from a big name. gently caress supporting some homebrew electric bike. Why? What's your reasoning behind this? Using this line of reasoning back in the 1950's or 1960's you would have never bought a Honda.
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Jan 7, 2010 02:46
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