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gyroball
Jul 29, 2003

Fortunately, the people found a mighty Rosenthal, called Trevor.

Welcome (or welcome back) to the world of menu/text-based baseball simulations! Depending on how you look at things, computer baseball sims are arguably the nerdiest thing on the planet. While they do not have the social stigma that comes with tabletop gaming or the antisocial, offputting worldview that comes with being a real life scientist or engineer, baseball simulations take an otherwise fun game of physical prowess and literally reduce it to a bunch of numbers and (figurative) dice rolls done by a computer. So yeah, it's pretty loving nerdy.

Holy poo poo that's terrible why would I want to have anything to do with that?
Because you're on the SA Forums and you're probably already past caring what people think about what you do on your computer. Also, you just watched your favorite team sign Jason Kendall to a multiyear deal and you keep thinking "I wish I could be a GM, I could do a much better job". Or maybe you want to imagine a world where Ron Santo is the career HR leader but your imagination needs numbers and spreadsheets to fully envision this fantasy.


Click here for the full 1024x768 image.


Why this thread, why now?
Recently, there was a resurgence of discussion of these games in the MLB News/Views thread and a suggestion that someone start a thread. Also, it is the dead of winter and those of us who live in places like St. Louis where there is no professional basketball and no professional football (at least nothing recognizable as professional football) need something to keep us occupied.

What are these games?
Well, there are two of them. The first is Baseball Mogul. The second is Out of the Park Baseball. They are both good games but they are very different. Okay, they're not very different. They both have the same basic concept. You are the owner/GM/manager of a baseball team and you draft, sign, trade, and (if you want to) coach your way to a championship. Or multiple championships. Or decades of domination, if you are playing on low difficulty levels or in historical leagues with no randomization.

TWO games? But I can't make decisions!
Honestly I buy both of them pretty much every year because I am horribly addicted to this genre. I even bought the terrible MLB Front Office Manager for the 360. It had no roster/player customization and didn't even attempt to fill out the minor leagues with appropriate mis-named players. In other words, playing as the Cardinals when it came out, there was absolutely no way to have Colby Rasmus in my minor league system. Do not by MLB Front Office Manager unless of course you are the one person in the world who enjoys text/menu based baseball sims but does not care for any level of accuracy or customization.

Now that my tangent is out of the way, here are the two games you SHOULD consider if you enjoy replaying/revising/forging ahead into baseball history with a bunch of menus, spreadsheets, and text outputs.

Out of the Park Baseball
The current version is OOTP X and TODAY ONLY it is apparently 24.99. You can buy it at http://www.ootpdevelopments.com . There is also OOTP 8/2007 which is available FREE, which is always a bonus.

OOTP is, of the two options, by far the most customizable. If you want, you can create an African baseball league. Or a high school baseball tournament. Or you can just sim from todays date. You can micromanage just about everything. Every minor league is fully simmed, fully supported, and you can even play as a GM/manager of one of the minor league teams. Honestly, I am too lazy to completely understand/enjoy the full spectrum of what OOTP can supply. But it does an amazing job of simulating baseball (though honestly the scouting is often loving ridiculous and should be ignored.

Text Interface:

Click here for the full 1024x768 image.


Play-by-play interface:

Click here for the full 1024x768 image.


Baseball Mogul
Baseball Mogul is the "arcade" baseball text simulator. It moves faster, does not require micromanaging the minor leagues, and is far more random (at default) than OOTP. It is, for those of you who also play military shooters, the Call of Duty to OOTP's ArmA 2. Probably more fun, but probaly less satisfying. It is currently 19.99 at http://www.sportsmogul.com .

The minor leagues exist only for development in BBM. Everything is focused on the majors. I've found, for whatever reason, this ends up producing more realistic historical stats than OOTP. The AI absolutely does not give a gently caress about the minors, scouting is more even (so good players get promoted more quickly) and historical games tend to follow patterns closer to what really happened in baseball.

Of course, going forward, OOTP is more realistic. Teams focus more on the minors, keep players down longer, etc...

Text Interface:

Click here for the full 846x605 image.


Play-by-play:

Click here for the full 846x605 image.


Yeah but which one should I buy?
Hopefully others will elaborate after me, but I see the difference as pretty simple. OOTP is an all-out, micromanaging, attention-grabbing game. You can't passively play it. If you want control over every aspect of your team (whether it is the New York Yankees, the Montgomery Biscuits, or the Capetown Flamethrowers) you want OOTP. Also, if you're more interested in an engaging, in-depth simulation of the future of baseball, OOTP is the way to go.

However, if you'd rather play while doing something else--checking up on the team between e-mails or simming games during class--BBM is more suited to your needs. There is FAR less micromanaging, the interface is user-friendly, and years just fly by with the sims. Further, if you're interested in seeing an alternate-universe MLB play itself out, BBM is a better bet. I've never been able to set OOTP right for a 1900+ playthrough, while in BBM it's just a matter of going to league settings and pumping up "contract extensions" to +100% until free agency in 1976.

Or you could just be like me and buy both :shobon:

What's this thread for?
Well, first raising awareness for these awesome games. Second, a lot of people were posting their Baseball Mogul/OOTP results in the News/Views thread. I'll probably start up a new BBM10 game soon, starting in 1901, with high randomization and post the strangest results. It's kind of fun when Mike Maddux is the Hall of Famer instead of Greg, after all.

Finally this is recommended reading:
http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Baseball-Association-Henry-Waugh/dp/0452260302/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262236358&sr=8-1

gyroball fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 31, 2009

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ManifunkDestiny
Aug 2, 2005
THE ONLY THING BETTER THAN THE SEAHAWKS IS RUSSELL WILSON'S TAINT SWEAT

Seahawks #1 fan since 2014.
Does OOTP10 do expansion drafts? If so, can I run them whenever I want, or are they just hard-coded for historical expansions a la BBM? I really, really, really want to create my 32-team, 8-division MLB idea with an expansion draft in 2010 but BBM won't let me do that :(

con
Aug 5, 2004

There's always next year...
You can do the expansions whenever you want.

oldfan
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."

gyroball posted:

I'll probably start up a new BBM10 game soon, starting in 1901, with high randomization and post the strangest results. It's kind of fun when Mike Maddux is the Hall of Famer instead of Greg, after all.

God drat, all this talk has made me want to do this again.

Power of Pecota
Aug 4, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!

I'm a cheap bastard, how big of a step down from OOTP X is the free OOTP 8/2007?

AlleyViper
Sep 15, 2007

Oh, there's plenty of other balls in the sea. Plus, you're not very talented.
I really wish it weren't such a hassle to do a mutliplayer BBM game like Anubis had going a while back, because that was fun poo poo.

gyroball
Jul 29, 2003

Fortunately, the people found a mighty Rosenthal, called Trevor.

ManifunkDestiny posted:

Does OOTP10 do expansion drafts? If so, can I run them whenever I want, or are they just hard-coded for historical expansions a la BBM? I really, really, really want to create my 32-team, 8-division MLB idea with an expansion draft in 2010 but BBM won't let me do that :(

Unless I'm mistaken about what you're asking, it should be REALLY easy in OOTP. Game -> Game Setup -> League setup -> "Expand League & Expansion Draft"

Save beforehand, this has crashed for me before

ALSO, now edited into the OP, everyone should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Baseball-Association-Henry-Waugh/dp/0452260302/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262236358&sr=8-1

gyroball fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Dec 31, 2009

Inside Outside
Jul 31, 2005

For what it's worth, you can set OOTP so that you don't have to micromanage it as much. I let the AI manager run the lineups and stuff while my minor leagues are pretty much run independently of me. That leaves me to do all the fun stuff like free agents, trades, and the draft.

ThatsMyBoye
Nov 21, 2006

I wish that I believed in fate
I wish I didn't sleep so late
I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders
BBM made Joe Mays a star.

ManifunkDestiny
Aug 2, 2005
THE ONLY THING BETTER THAN THE SEAHAWKS IS RUSSELL WILSON'S TAINT SWEAT

Seahawks #1 fan since 2014.

gyroball posted:

Unless I'm mistaken about what you're asking, it should be REALLY easy in OOTP. Game -> Game Setup -> League setup -> "Expand League & Expansion Draft"

Save beforehand, this has crashed for me before

Can I change the league setup from 3 divisions to 4 and eliminate the WC?

gyroball
Jul 29, 2003

Fortunately, the people found a mighty Rosenthal, called Trevor.

ManifunkDestiny posted:

Can I change the league setup from 3 divisions to 4 and eliminate the WC?

You'll have to do it after the expansion draft but, yeah, that should be no problem at all.

edit: As in you set up the expansion with the new teams in whatever league/division, let everything run until expansion is over, then realign the league

ManifunkDestiny
Aug 2, 2005
THE ONLY THING BETTER THAN THE SEAHAWKS IS RUSSELL WILSON'S TAINT SWEAT

Seahawks #1 fan since 2014.

gyroball posted:

You'll have to do it after the expansion draft but, yeah, that should be no problem at all.

welp time to spend some christmas money then

Politicalrancor
Jan 29, 2008

Right now Im planning for the yankees to win every world series from 1948-1960 because I hate parity.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida

I still remember my awesome OOTP league :unsmith:

AlleyViper
Sep 15, 2007

Oh, there's plenty of other balls in the sea. Plus, you're not very talented.

ThatsMyBoye posted:

Let's Play BBM made :slick: Nick Punto :slick: a star.

MODS CURE JOKES
Nov 11, 2009

OFFICIAL SAS 90s REMEMBERER

Politicalrancor posted:

Right now Im planning for the yankees to win every world series from 1948-1960 because I hate parity.

gently caress parity. I'm going to make parity my bitch. 92-time World Champion Yankees. :devil:

Politicalrancor
Jan 29, 2008

Pickle Surprise posted:

gently caress parity. I'm going to make parity my bitch. 92-time World Champion Yankees. :devil:

I suppose youre right. I lowered 2009 payroll by trading arod for david wright, mauer for posada and teixiera for pujols.

yes I had commissioner mode on.

Eltoasto
Aug 26, 2002

We come spinning out of nothingness, scattering stars like dust.



I used to play in an OOTP league and it was fun as hell. They sent me an email saying it was $24.99 through 12/31, so i planned on picking it up tomorrow after getting paid. Any goon leagues out there?

Power of Pecota
Aug 4, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!

So far, my only complaint with the free OOTP version is that for some reason John Mayberry Jr. is white.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

#1 Jaguars Sunk Cost Fallacy-Haver

Eltoasto posted:

I used to play in an OOTP league and it was fun as hell. They sent me an email saying it was $24.99 through 12/31, so i planned on picking it up tomorrow after getting paid. Any goon leagues out there?
Hell, I'd be up to buy the game if there was an online goon league

Scrotos
Sep 8, 2003


:gonk:

JT Jag posted:

Hell, I'd be up to buy the game if there was an online goon league

this! I love to play these types of games, but not alone.

con
Aug 5, 2004

There's always next year...
I'm in a very active online league for OOTPX that might be facing contraction next year if we can't find owners for 4 teams I think. Would anyone be interested in joining it? I can pass your e-mails along to the guy who's commishing it. We are just heading into the World Series in 2024 so this is the perfect time to join and get into the off-season and the draft.

con fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Dec 31, 2009

Doran Doran
Jan 10, 2008

con posted:

I'm in a very active online league for OOTPX that might be facing contraction next year if we can't find owners for 4 teams I think. Would anyone be interested in joining it? I can pass you e-mails along to the guy who's commishing it.

i'd be pretty interested in this, let me know my email is coffeecold@gmail.com

Eltoasto
Aug 26, 2002

We come spinning out of nothingness, scattering stars like dust.



I would be interested as well, eltoasto@eltoasto.com

Mike N Eich
Jan 27, 2007

This might just be the year
considering I'm on a mac i think my only option is OOTP so I'll probably end up getting this tomorrow before the deal runs dry

(macs are gay lol)

Armitage
Aug 16, 2005

"Mathman's not here." "Oh? Where is he?" "He's in the Mathroom."
I'll have to give historical leagues a spin again in OOTP after my save became corrupted. I'll have to settle for the latest free version for now, though.

In my experience with playing both sims historically, OOTP and BBM seem to agree that Mel Ott should be the all time home run king. I usually sim these historical leagues up until 1962, then take control of the expansion Mets, then have them start dominating by 1967 :)

decahedron
Aug 8, 2005

by Ozma

Dinner Dream posted:

So far, my only complaint with the free OOTP version is that for some reason John Mayberry Jr. is white.

if you're doing historical pictures they're available on the OOTP forums, otherwise it randomly generates pictures or just has a generic blurry picture of white dude w/ beard

I'm currently playing as the Expos in 1980 - My lineup is stacked, my payroll is slightly below league average and I'm drawing over 3,000,000 per season.

Also OOTP 10 is worth it solely for the fact that salary arb is fixed.

whateverfor
Jul 23, 2007
fuck you sped

gyroball posted:

However, if you'd rather play while doing something else--checking up on the team between e-mails or simming games during class--BBM is more suited to your needs. There is FAR less micromanaging, the interface is user-friendly, and years just fly by with the sims. Further, if you're interested in seeing an alternate-universe MLB play itself out, BBM is a better bet. I've never been able to set OOTP right for a 1900+ playthrough, while in BBM it's just a matter of going to league settings and pumping up "contract extensions" to +100% until free agency in 1976.

Or you could just be like me and buy both :shobon:

It's just annoying how utterly stupid the trade AI is in Baseball Mogul. Every time I try to play OOTP, I get frustrated by the interface and how incredibly slow it is. Then I go to play BBM, and I get this:



I just want the interface of BBM with some actual brains underneath it.

gyroball
Jul 29, 2003

Fortunately, the people found a mighty Rosenthal, called Trevor.

whateverfor posted:

It's just annoying how utterly stupid the trade AI is in Baseball Mogul. Every time I try to play OOTP, I get frustrated by the interface and how incredibly slow it is. Then I go to play BBM, and I get this:



I just want the interface of BBM with some actual brains underneath it.

Lets be fair here, this is a fairly accurate simulation of Dayton Moore.

But yeah you're right, the trade AI in BBM just can't evaluate the value of young players correctly and doesn't go into rebuilding cycles, etc.

saffi faildotter
Mar 2, 2007

It also doesn't seem to get "albatross contracts", I traded Jason Kendall and Jeff Suppan ($12.5m contract, 2 yrs) to the Mets for Livan Hernandez ($1m, 1 year) and cash. I haven't tried trading Vernon Wells but I bet you could if you tried.

TheChaosPath
Jul 22, 2005

Inside Outside posted:

For what it's worth, you can set OOTP so that you don't have to micromanage it as much. I let the AI manager run the lineups and stuff while my minor leagues are pretty much run independently of me. That leaves me to do all the fun stuff like free agents, trades, and the draft.

I am intrigued/horrified because I love in-game managing and utterly loathe dealing with trades and contracts

Armitage
Aug 16, 2005

"Mathman's not here." "Oh? Where is he?" "He's in the Mathroom."
I remember playing a Baseball Mogul sim a long time ago where I was looking to upgrade a position for a playoff run and had made an offer where I sent two middle of the road prospects for a player with 1 year left on their contract.

The CPU GM laughed at me for even offering it, and when I hit the Get Counter Offer button, it countered with 8 of my top prospects. I think the Baseball Mogul game this happened in was Baseball Mogul 2000.

Tales of Woe
Dec 18, 2004

Male. Bi. Unix. posted:

It also doesn't seem to get "albatross contracts", I traded Jason Kendall and Jeff Suppan ($12.5m contract, 2 yrs) to the Mets for Livan Hernandez ($1m, 1 year) and cash. I haven't tried trading Vernon Wells but I bet you could if you tried.

It values players with bad contracts at $0 instead of negative value so you can just package them with any prospect and get another team to take them.

I've had a lot of fun messing around with BBM but in order to get a realistic sim you have to sort of add your own guidelines because otherwise it's so simple to exploit the AI. Especially since some of its player evaluations are a bit wacky, like the 86-rated Ty Wigginton above.

gyroball
Jul 29, 2003

Fortunately, the people found a mighty Rosenthal, called Trevor.

Before starting a Baseball Mogul 1901-2009 game, I went through and filled out the portraits folder to get as many as I could. Most of these are from the baseball card packs on the BBM forum but I compressed them into a single "portraits" zip.

This has a ton of historical players, but there are some hitches (for example Roberto Clemente and Roger Clemens have the same picture, almost all the pictures are scanned baseball cards) If you are like me and prefer pictures on your player profiles you can just download this and replace your Portraits folder with it:

http://www.mediafire.com/?km4rw4qwzjm

edit: apparently I fixed the clemens/clemente thing after all

gyroball fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 31, 2009

Nolan Arenado
May 8, 2009

I just did a BBM 1901-2009 simulation with randomization on and went to check the records. All time home runs - Barry Bonds, 729. All time hits - Ty Cobb, 4407. Well son of a bitch, this isn't any fun. Let's check the season leaders for home runs. Ah, here we go. Chad Tracy, 68. Well goddamn...

MODS CURE JOKES
Nov 11, 2009

OFFICIAL SAS 90s REMEMBERER

OctoberBlues posted:

I just did a BBM 1901-2009 simulation with randomization on and went to check the records. All time home runs - Barry Bonds, 729. All time hits - Ty Cobb, 4407. Well son of a bitch, this isn't any fun. Let's check the season leaders for home runs. Ah, here we go. Chad Tracy, 68. Well goddamn...

Andruw Jones had something like 860 homers in one simulation I ran, it was awesome.

saffi faildotter
Mar 2, 2007

How can I stop the sim ai from running out 17 year old Sandy Koufax to go 1-31 with a 8.00 ERA, forever making his stats look super retarded? He stays in the majors but his ERA hovers around 6.50 until he turns 25 when he becomes league average.

The same thing happened to Ted Williams except he washed out out of the league at 25 and I'd like to stop that if possible

gyroball
Jul 29, 2003

Fortunately, the people found a mighty Rosenthal, called Trevor.

Male. Bi. Unix. posted:

How can I stop the sim ai from running out 17 year old Sandy Koufax to go 1-31 with a 8.00 ERA, forever making his stats look super retarded? He stays in the majors but his ERA hovers around 6.50 until he turns 25 when he becomes league average.

The same thing happened to Ted Williams except he washed out out of the league at 25 and I'd like to stop that if possible

Is this Baseball Mogul? You can adjust how fast the AI promotes players to various levels under "league settings" in the "league" pull-down menu.

saffi faildotter
Mar 2, 2007

Yeah this is BBM. I went to 1935 to check out Williams getting drafted to see what made them bump him immediately - he starts, fresh out of highschool, at 82 overall, which makes him instantly the best LF on the roster for any team that drafts him (the latest I've seen him go was the third pick)

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gardenald
Jul 23, 2007

In the end, it comes down to throwing one pitch after another, and seeing what happens. With each new consequence, the game begins to take shape.

OctoberBlues posted:

I just did a BBM 1901-2009 simulation with randomization on and went to check the records. All time home runs - Barry Bonds, 729. All time hits - Ty Cobb, 4407. Well son of a bitch, this isn't any fun. Let's check the season leaders for home runs. Ah, here we go. Chad Tracy, 68. Well goddamn...

I just ran one too, here are some of the more interesting results that I got.

Career home runs - Lou Gehrig - 861 (!)
Career hits leader - Wade Boggs - 4259 (Pete Rose was a career bench player)
WINS - Christy Mathewson - 442 (Bob Gibson had 440)
Strikeouts - Bob Gibson - 7027 (Jesus christ)
Single season home runs - Pat the Bat - 72

Other interesting things:
The Yankees won 7 world championships, the same number as the Montreal Expos, who won five straight titles from 1987-91.
The Red Sox have not won a world championship since, oddly enough, 1918. The Cubs, in contrast, won 9 titles, the most recent in 1999.
The Mets and the Mariners each won 4 titles since 2000.

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