|
I'm not against time-limited adventures at all. But if the adventure doesn't have ramifications for failing to beat the time limit, then there isn't really a time limit at all, is there? And following that, one of the best ways to include possible ramifications into the game is to have the players face losing an NPC or building that they invested time and emotion into- such as in the middle of a larger campaign. Unless you're throwing world-ending plots during the first level, characters really don't have much invested in Jimmy the Prince beyond the reward. Time limits are curve-balls to be inserted into the larger game's vision because there simply has to be player agency overall rather than saving/capturing the DM's MacGuffin. As a day one expectation in order to balance the game, time limits are terrible. And if your campaign doesn't involve the Wizard preparing a Teleport or other spell to use before resting up every day, it is because you ended it before level 9 (or again playing with retarded wizards). At that point you might as well port in the E6 house-rules.
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2010 12:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 22:56 |
|
|
Gerund posted:I'm not against time-limited adventures at all. But if the adventure doesn't have ramifications for failing to beat the time limit, then there isn't really a time limit at all, is there? And following that, one of the best ways to include possible ramifications into the game is to have the players face losing an NPC or building that they invested time and emotion into- such as in the middle of a larger campaign. Unless you're throwing world-ending plots during the first level, characters really don't have much invested in Jimmy the Prince beyond the reward. Oh, I wouldn't go as far to say that you can't have a time limited quest theme right off the bat... i think that would work if done right. I mean, you basically get that at Con one shot games in which they're slotted for a specific period of time. Although in theory that's a difference case(real world limit, not in game), it does tend to bleed off and you obviously don't have adventures spanning weeks of in game time, short of basically going "three weeks pass by" etc... In fact, one complaint I've seen of Pathfinder Society scenarios from spellcasters is specifically not having rest periods to reload on spells. Obviously the situation is different in a home game campaign... and yeah, it's something to throw in there now and then, but not as a general story mechanic... But as before, rather than making it quest based, I prefer to do the same but make it situational based... as I mentioned before with the "camping here is unadvised" line of thought, it could lead to an additional unwanted encounter. IE, the party isn't going to bed after after couple of encounters. If you're storming a stronghold or some such it really doesn't make sense to shack up and go to bed for 6 hours, unless you've basically torn the place to pieces already. Again, you don't force the players to make this decision, but if they're say... being pursued by very intent supernatural enemies, they would definitely be betting against the house on a roll.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2010 14:29
|
|
|
When I DM, I try and make the setting as sandbox-y as possible, because that's something my players like. Hell, in my most recent game, one of them had full ranks in a craft skill. If they choose to spend weeks loving around, there enemies aren't gonna do the same. The only railroad is the one they get themselves on. gently caress off big bad X, and big bad X will coming looking for you. It'll take him a week to get his poo poo together, so if you spend that week clearing out a dungeon one room a day, you may be underprepared. But yeah, even in the cheesesiest dungeon delve, PCs generally have two viable options until the dungeon is pretty much empty, press on or camp somewhere far away. Heres a better example of a time limited adventure: Gain access to the diplomatic function and prevent the treaty from being signed. Players have one night only and can adopt a wide range of methods. Rescue the prince was just an off the cuff example. Edit: So I was flicking through the Legacy of Fire AP, and I found this: Solifugid: These long-legged, desert-dwelling arachnids are the focus of all manner of fallacious rumors regarding their deadliness. A master with a solifugid familiar gains a +3 bonus on Bluf checks. Solifugids have the same statistics as tiny spiders with no poison (see page 288 of the MM). Yes, you can have a camel spider familiar. Vaginal Vagrant fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Feb 25, 2010 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 01:40
|
|
|
rock rock posted:But yeah, even in the cheesesiest dungeon delve, PCs generally have two viable options until the dungeon is pretty much empty, press on or camp somewhere far away. Rope Trick.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 17:20
|
|
|
The fact that everyone is simply claiming that casters are amazing at everything and not backing up such claims is ridiculous. Yes, casters can do some things better than anyone else, but they are limited as to how many times they can do such things. Don't forget that they have tremendous withdrawals such as hit points, or the fact that disabling a caster is easier than any other class: grappling, anti-magic zones, sneezing at them really hard, there are tons of ways.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 17:31
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:The fact that everyone is simply claiming that casters are amazing at everything and not backing up such claims is ridiculous. Yes, casters can do some things better than anyone else, but they are limited as to how many times they can do such things. Don't forget that they have tremendous withdrawals such as hit points, or the fact that disabling a caster is easier than any other class: grappling, anti-magic zones, sneezing at them really hard, there are tons of ways. It's hard to grapple something that is flying or invisible. Also casters can summon monsters that can grapple far better than any noncaster can. And longevity of caster abilities doesn't really matter except in very limited circumstances, since after 8th level a party can rest at basically any time. If a party doesn't rest when the higher level caster spells are gone, then they are operation at a major disadvantage for any future fights, which is bad for casters AND noncasters.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 17:39
|
|
|
People have actually proven it a billion times in TGD and YCS, and will probably be in here shortly to do it again now that you've posted that. I won't get into it because hopefully someone who can articulate it better (Ferrinus) will but in short none of the things you listed will actually present even the mildest threat to casters. Well, maybe I will a little: disabling a Fighter is the easiest thing because of (haha) Will saves and hit points don't matter when you can completely disable someone or take over their mind or whatever with magic For someone calling themselves Captain Obvious you're missing the most obvious thing in the world: the caster/non-caster imbalance and why it exists and how wrong your post was
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 17:40
|
|
|
Piell posted:It's hard to grapple something that is flying or invisible. Well, I hope you don't get ambushed because those spells don't last terribly long. You can't walk through an entire dungeon, while checking for traps etc. all the while being invisible and flying for 1min per level. And when combat starts, you have to spend two turns to get either of those to work. It's not like you can spot a monster, say "time out, I have to cast flying, invisibility, and resilient sphere. Ok, time in. Piell posted:Also casters can summon monsters that can grapple far better than any noncaster can. Great, that doesn't help much when you summon one or two monsters to help you grapple against 5-6 bears. Mikan posted:Will saves and hit points don't matter when you can completely disable someone or take over their mind or whatever with magic You could say the same thing about fort saves for casters, except hit points DO matter for dex saves, which they also suck at. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 17:53
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:or the fact that disabling a caster is easier than any other class Yeah that's not true at all. Just make a fighter roll one goddamn will save.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 18:05
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:Yes, casters can do some things better than anyone else, but they are limited as to how many times they can do such things. The problem with front loaded powers is that they are always going to define the tempo, which negates the perceived advantage. The party will sleep when the spellcasters need sleep; otherwise they are at a very significant disadvantage. Further, if you clamp down and set the tempo to more encounters between rests (as the DM, the players would be stupid to do that, and will probably feel a bit railroaded in many scenarios) you make the game less fun for the caster, because eventually they are sitting there attacking with their sling or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 18:06
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious I enjoy playing 3.5 and Pathfinder and even I will admit that casters are far more powerful than non-casters the higher you get in levels. It is very easy with planar binding or planar ally for clerics and wizards to call outsiders that are better fighters than the party fighter who also can cast spells as well. A cleric, using only the core PHB, can actually buff himself up to be a better fighter than the party fighter. If he uses books besides the PHB, he can do it all day. A wizard can, with one spell, turn the strongest minion of the bad guys into a permanently charm/dominated member of the party. Since it was likely a monster, it will be a better fighter than the party fighter. People are going to flood this thread now, giving even more examples than I did, but I just want to nip this in the bud. This is not really the thread to start this argument up...again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 18:32
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:The problem with front loaded powers is that they are always going to define the tempo, which negates the perceived advantage. The party will sleep when the spellcasters need sleep; otherwise they are at a very significant disadvantage. So? it makes sense that the tempo should be set by the classes that need time management. You don't make it so that casters can only attack with a sling, just that they have to save their more powerful spells for the bigger opponents. They can't just blow their load every single fight and expect to be fine with it. As for the ability to rest all the time, make the zone have heavy traffic i.e. a goblin cave. Yeah, you can clear out a space and rest through the night in a rope trick, but by the time you wake back up there will be more baddies that are going to crush you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 18:33
|
|
|
Anonymous Zebra posted:Point taken, I will just end the argument on my end so we can move forwards with the thread.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 18:35
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:So? it makes sense that the tempo should be set by the classes that need time management. You don't make it so that casters can only attack with a sling, just that they have to save their more powerful spells for the bigger opponents. They can't just blow their load every single fight and expect to be fine with it. If the tempo is set by time management classes, that completely invalidates your argument where longevity is the advantage of fighters. Longevity will never come up, because the time management classes will decide when to rest, and the time management classes will not decide to rest in a tempo where the longevity advantage is relevant. And in the above scenario it will still be more advantageous to wake nuke sleep then attempt to clear in one; eventually the baddies will stop coming, but even if they don't, barring a time challenge respawning enemies is fantastic for advancement.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 18:42
|
|
|
Erik Mona at NeoCon 09 Talking about Paizo, OGL vs 4E licensing, the future of PnP games(focusing on the relation to technology), and misc topics(his history in gaming). Fairly interesting regardless of what PnP you play. Just to warn ya, its 1 hr long.  One interesting thing he says is "Paizo is developing 3 Iphone apps for the Pathfinder Role Playing Game. Those should be released relatively shortly." "One of the apps is called the Live Character Sheet..." Apparently it works networked, and you can say, cast bless and select the other characters and everyone's iphone gets updated... "4E is better" \  
mixitwithblop fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 25, 2010 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2010 19:39
|
|
|
mixitwithblop posted:One interesting thing he says is "Paizo is developing 3 Iphone apps for the Pathfinder Role Playing Game. Those should be released relatively shortly." "One of the apps is called the Live Character Sheet..." Apparently it works networked, and you can say, cast bless and select the other characters and everyone's iphone gets updated... Don't worry 1st world swine, only rich people will ever want to play our game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 00:00
|
|
|
That apps kinda cool if everyone has iphones otherwise it seems a bit lost. A laptop app might be nice, more people have those.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 00:17
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:So? it makes sense that the tempo should be set by the classes that need time management. You don't make it so that casters can only attack with a sling, just that they have to save their more powerful spells for the bigger opponents. They can't just blow their load every single fight and expect to be fine with it. While it's true your casters shouldn't nova every fight this is still invalid for reasons beyond the ones CoolCab pointed out. The non-caster classes are often fundamentally limited by the resources of the casting ones in terms of necessary buffs/healing so that any "longevity" is in fact an illusion. Moreover, spells are SO powerful relative to martial abilities and non-casters so weak compared to most monsters that at higher levels running out of spells becomes tantamount to failure if there are non-trivial encounters ahead that you cannot rest before- proceeding would be suicide. Therefore while time limits between many encounters can challenge a spellcaster and party as a whole it does not do it in a way that reaffirms the role of martial classes or highlights their usefulness- quite the opposite in fact. edit: That does sound like a nice app, though yeah a laptop one would be a natural extension. I like the 4E character builder and the compendium is nice but WotCs electronic offerings are really pretty underwhelming compared to what they could be doing and it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing to have someone else show them up a bit. LGD fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Feb 26, 2010 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 00:21
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:That apps kinda cool if everyone has iphones otherwise it seems a bit lost. A laptop app might be nice, more people have those. It does sound cool, but from the perspective somebody who doesn't own an Iphone and has no big desire to play a game with one, it seems super niche... and I'm rather surprised they don't just license this sort of thing out instead of trying to do it in-house. If the apps end up being so bad rear end that they convince people to go out and buy iphones/ipads just to run them, then job well done... but if they're just 'cool if you have one already', it makes me wonder... It's peaked my interest, but that's all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 00:46
|
|
|
mixitwithblop posted:Wow, Erik Mona has really let himself go (or otherwise aged horribly since the last time I saw him).
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 00:53
|
|
|
He looks like that dude from Kids in the Hall. Also gonna echo what other people said: iphone app is a neat idea, but only one guy in my group has an iphone and I doubt they could do anything with an app that would make the rest of us want to drop the cash on iphones. While I admittedly don't like Pathfinder or 3.5, even an app for a system I do enjoy like 4e would have to be pretty drat good and full-featured to beat just using my laptop with Masterplan and the 4e Combat Manager, which are both free programs that run on a piece of electronics I already have.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 00:58
|
|
|
iPhone Apps are another step on the predestined path of RPGs being squandered into the Model Train hobby ghetto. I'm sorry that fat fucks with a pirate goatee think that they are being at all "innovative" by making the game more and more dependent on mid-adult spending limits.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 01:50
|
|
|
Gerund posted:iPhone Apps are another step on the predestined path of RPGs being squandered into the Model Train hobby ghetto. I'm sorry that fat fucks with a pirate goatee think that they are being at all "innovative" by making the game more and more dependent on mid-adult spending limits. *cough*cough*errrwarhammererrrr*cough* 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 01:55
|
|
|
mixitwithblop posted:*cough*cough*errrwarhammererrrr*cough* Even though warhams have gigantic money-sink potential, you can play for cheap with second-hand models and proxies. You can also get just about anything new in the lineup (excepting forgeworld and package deals) forabout $40 with discounters. You can be un/minimally employed and still maintain a warhammer habit. I've seen it. I've done it. Expecting a whole table to have iPhones is expecting too much. I've gamed with some tech-savvy career-having friends, and at best there's been a blackberry, some verizon thing, an iPhone, two iPod touches, and a $20 disposable cell. This is just idiocy. The only way it would work is if they scrap the PF setting and retool lazer-focusing at Apple fanboys. The demographic using current and next-gen tech is not the same as the holdouts investing in last edition +.25 rules.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 03:15
|
|
|
You guys are getting awfully mad about a neat optional thing that some groups are gonna love
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 03:17
|
|
|
mixitwithblop posted:4E is better
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 03:18
|
|
|
Mikan posted:You guys are getting awfully mad about a neat optional thing that some groups are gonna love If they don't have fun the same way I do, they are doing it wrong.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 03:26
|
|
|
Playing a non-caster is fun sometimes if your caster friends don't take their most powerful spells and instead focus on buffing you, like the time that my 11th level dervish had haste, sonic weapon, greater invis, recitation, and circle against evil (so I couldn't be dominated). We were fighting something really big with a lovely AC and I critted twice on my four attacks while I was power attacking for full and did 250 points of damage in one round. I killed it in the next round. Of course if our sorcerer had been rocking phantasmal killer it probably would've died in the first round rather than the third. edit: later on we had a fight where four of the five monsters had dispel magic at will which meant I didn't have any cool buffs and also the magic circle vs. evil that kept me from getting hosed by a lot of stuff was gone so I was Mazed and stunned and poo poo constantly Danhenge fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Feb 26, 2010 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 03:55
|
|
|
Mikan posted:You guys are getting awfully mad about a neat optional thing that some groups are gonna love I didn't realize we could opt out of having paizo resources diverted into this effort waste.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 04:08
|
|
|
They have to expend effort at some point after coasting on a reprint of someone else's rules Seriously though there are gonna be some people really excited about those apps (I think they're cool as hell and I don't even have an iphone) so I don't see how it's an effort waste. I mean look at the stupid poo poo you posted: quote:You can be un/minimally employed and still maintain a warhammer habit. I've seen it. I've done it. You can be un/minimally employed and still maintain a Pathfinder habit. I've seen it. (I wouldn't ever do it though.) Using things like Books and Paper and Dice you can still play the product, the iphone apps are optional, you don't have to buy them or even acknowledge they exist and look at how mad you are about them Also: quote:I didn't realize we could opt out of having paizo resources diverted into this effort waste. Because you can normally influence how Paizo directs their resources? I mean, would you get this stupid about things if they released a book of content you don't want (but other people do)?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 04:18
|
|
|
I was genuinely prepared to actually praise Pathfinder for something other than its art and even the Pathfinder fans are bitching about it I'll do it anyway. That living character sheet thing sounds awesome and I'm jealous that 4e's not doing something like it. For groups that are all using i-whatevers it's gonna be really cool and those groups aren't as rare as people think. I'm not going to be able to look the 4e thread in the eye for weeks now, they're all going to know that I complimented Pathfinder/Paizo 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 04:20
|
|
|
^^^ actually people will probably be astonished that your reverse grognardism has diminished even briefly. quick, say "death to 3.5" or people will get the wrong idea ^^^moths posted:I didn't realize we could opt out of having paizo resources diverted into this effort waste. this is an amazingly terrible argument. paizo resources are going into making a neat product that some people will use and find interesting, which will help ensure that their core product is being used and enjoyed, which will drive more sales of the various books. a good number of my friends use iGadgets and they would loving love a program like this I suppose that doesn't really matter though because they're using resources on something you won't use which automatically means their efforts are a giant waste I guess?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 04:24
|
|
|
Having an app's functionality hinge on the entire table having/using it is poor design. I'm not mad about it, it's just obviously stupid.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 04:41
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure the character sheet works even if none one else at the table has an iphone. It's probably similar to the auto character sheets I have on my laptop.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 05:11
|
|
|
Well yes, of course Pathfinder has to develop something instead of play WoW all day, and of all things iPhone apps is probably the most utilitarian thing for the one-in-ten groups that all have an iPhone. But the flip side is that having an iPhone do all the squiggly math inherent in the "2000 spell buff" 3.5 base system is going to further invest the developers into doing nothing to make the game easier for people who don't have a spiffy gadget to do all the work for them. What really makes it terrible is the fact that it is actually really drat nice to have the app on hand when a Dispel Magic effect takes out only 1/3rd of the buffs that the Cleric had running, and because that's the new expectation of the game players on the outside are having to struggle through an obviously poorly implemented design. But hey, if you're okay playing solely to the Model Train crowd and never having a group of teenagers play your game, then more power to you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 05:20
|
|
|
You're probably right and it won't suck. I got hung up on the part about it updating everybody's iPhones from your iPhone.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 05:21
|
|
|
Gerund posted:But the flip side is that having an iPhone do all the squiggly math inherent in the "2000 spell buff" 3.5 base system is going to further invest the developers into doing nothing to make the game easier for people who don't have a spiffy gadget to do all the work for them. When did Paizo ever attempt to make the 3.5 system easier quote:What really makes it terrible is the fact that it is actually really drat nice to have the app on hand when a Dispel Magic effect takes out only 1/3rd of the buffs that the Cleric had running, Yeah that sounds terrible quote:and because that's the new expectation of the game players on the outside are having to struggle through an obviously poorly implemented design. If people are playing Pathfinder they are already struggling through an obviously poorly implemented design quote:But hey, if you're okay playing solely to the Model Train crowd and never having a group of teenagers play your game, then more power to you. Haha yeah those wacky Model Train guys
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 05:25
|
|
|
Gerund posted:But the flip side is that having an iPhone do all the squiggly math inherent in the "2000 spell buff" 3.5 base system is going to further invest the developers into doing nothing to make the game easier for people who don't have a spiffy gadget to do all the work for them. Alternatively you can play with people who aren't autistic and don't sit around calculating the ideal combination of Wizard buffs all day, or just play 4E and not worry about it. Who gives a poo poo if they're making Pathfinder "easier"; the people who are playing it are deliberately playing it because it resembles an old system they like. They brag about it being more complex than 4E. Gerund posted:But hey, if you're okay playing solely to the Model Train crowd and never having a group of teenagers play your game, then more power to you. Why are people talking about iPhone owners as if they're some kind of megarich uberdorks from an alien universe itt? Do you really not know a single person who owns a nice phone without having a trust fund, a doctorate, or a stamp collection? EDIT: mikan
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 05:26
|
|
|
Gerund posted:But the flip side is that having an iPhone do all the squiggly math inherent in the "2000 spell buff" 3.5 base system is going to further invest the developers into doing nothing to make the game easier for people who don't have a spiffy gadget to do all the work for them. this would be a pretty sensible argument if "make the game easier for people who don't like keeping track of all this crazy 3.x poo poo that's going on" didn't directly translate to "make the game far more streamlined and newbie-friendly" and at that point paizo would basically be trying to rewrite 4e so... honestly I don't get your argument here; what is all this model train nonsense. it's a math-heavy tabletop roleplaying game, I don't really think any hip teenagers are going to say, "oh man, I so wanted to roll up a totally pimp barbarian and cleave some orcs but I don't have an iphone and math is hard"
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 05:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 22:56 |
|
|
Yeah, I'm kind of confused by his reaction. Three of the five people in my gaming group own iphones. One guy is an undergrad, one is a graduate student, and the third is a guy working in University admin. All of my undergrad assistants in my lab over the last year have had iphones. I see people carrying them all the time. It's not like they are programming an app for some random gadget that nobody on the planet already uses.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2010 05:33
|
|