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The Gate posted:But to answer your question, yes, all the primary spellcasters (Cleric, Druid, Sorceror, and Wizard) are going to end up more powerful in the long run. Around level 12 or so, the balance (or lack thereof) can start to become apparent. However, this also assumes that they pick certain types of powers that force the enemy to save or take either huge damage or a serious negative effect, such as death. Also, the system is very simple; granted, not as simple as DnD 4.
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Feb 23, 2010 06:11
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The fact that everyone is simply claiming that casters are amazing at everything and not backing up such claims is ridiculous. Yes, casters can do some things better than anyone else, but they are limited as to how many times they can do such things. Don't forget that they have tremendous withdrawals such as hit points, or the fact that disabling a caster is easier than any other class: grappling, anti-magic zones, sneezing at them really hard, there are tons of ways.
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Feb 25, 2010 17:31
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Piell posted:It's hard to grapple something that is flying or invisible. Well, I hope you don't get ambushed because those spells don't last terribly long. You can't walk through an entire dungeon, while checking for traps etc. all the while being invisible and flying for 1min per level. And when combat starts, you have to spend two turns to get either of those to work. It's not like you can spot a monster, say "time out, I have to cast flying, invisibility, and resilient sphere. Ok, time in. Piell posted:Also casters can summon monsters that can grapple far better than any noncaster can. Great, that doesn't help much when you summon one or two monsters to help you grapple against 5-6 bears. Mikan posted:Will saves and hit points don't matter when you can completely disable someone or take over their mind or whatever with magic You could say the same thing about fort saves for casters, except hit points DO matter for dex saves, which they also suck at. 
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Feb 25, 2010 17:53
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CoolCab posted:The problem with front loaded powers is that they are always going to define the tempo, which negates the perceived advantage. The party will sleep when the spellcasters need sleep; otherwise they are at a very significant disadvantage. So? it makes sense that the tempo should be set by the classes that need time management. You don't make it so that casters can only attack with a sling, just that they have to save their more powerful spells for the bigger opponents. They can't just blow their load every single fight and expect to be fine with it. As for the ability to rest all the time, make the zone have heavy traffic i.e. a goblin cave. Yeah, you can clear out a space and rest through the night in a rope trick, but by the time you wake back up there will be more baddies that are going to crush you.
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Feb 25, 2010 18:33
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Point taken, I will just end the argument on my end so we can move forwards with the thread.
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Feb 25, 2010 18:35
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happyelf posted:Generally however, while i'm really interested in this, i'm leery of trusting the designers who brought us the pathfinder Fighter class. Not to mention the pathfinder wizards class. 4e is a very innovative, well built system, pathfinder is not. I honestly don't know if they can pull off an interesting design here- I certainly hope they can. wtf is wrong with the fighter and wizard classes? They nerfed wizards by squeezing their spell tree, making it REALLY hard to cast if a monster so much as stands near them (concentration check = 15 + double the spell level), altering save or lose spells like finger of death, altering school restriction rules, and giving them nifty but not overpowered abilities. They buffed fighters by making changes/additions to feats, giving them free weapon specialization groups (such as long blades) that can be swapped at a later level like sorc spells, and giving them more utility with abilities that remove the speed reduction, increase max dex bonus, and vastly reduce the armor check penalty. As for skills, you can take ANY skill you want without penalty, you just get a +3 bonus on class skills. Not only that, they consolidated redundant skills like spot/listen, hide/move silently, tumble/jump etc. Concentration checks are no longer a skill at all, but are based entirely off caster level. 4e skills are retarded. They basically returned to the 2nd edition NWP crap of "well, I know that the master smith dwarf has been practicing his craft for decades, but since my intelligence is higher than his I am better at that same skill I picked up last week." Pathfinder is an update of 3.5, not a brand new system. It's not suppose to change the ENTIRE game or be too innovative. It's made for those who like 3.5 but want it to be balanced, which I think they did pretty well. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Mar 21, 2010 |
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Mar 21, 2010 15:32
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INCOMING WALL OF TEXTPiell posted:Five foot steps still exists, so nobody ever makes a concentration check anyway. They nerfed save or DIE effects, but almost all of the save or lose spells like Sleep, Stinking Cloud, and the others are all unaffected and just as powerful as ever. The school restriction rules actually made wizards stronger, since they can actually cast spells from banned schools by using 2 slots. A number of the specialization abilities (Divination's Forewarned especially) are quite powerful. All large monsters (and nearly everything past 13th level is large) have 10 foot reach. Thats right, a horse will ruin your spell casting powers. School spec changes are better, I'll admit that; they aren't overpowered though, just useful. And you better drat get good divination powers because the school isn't terribly good for anything other than locating, scouting, or the occasional illusion. Piell posted:They changed feats, but not always for the better - Power attack is arguably weaker, and Cleave sucks now. Weapon specialization groups don't really matter - it's rare that you are required to use a different weapon for too long unless you DM is an rear end in a top hat. The armor bonuses are nice but not that great: at 20th level they are -4 ACP and +4 max dex bonus, but it is unlikely you are going to get much worth out of the dex increase, so basically you just get less ACP. Medium armor is basically worthless, so the move increase isn't too helpful there, though the moving in heavy armor is decent. Still, these are only incremental improvements - minor bonuses that don't come close to bringing up a fighter to the level of a caster. Power attack may not deal as much pure damage as it did, but it is far more cost efficient: at BAB 4 have -2 to hit and +6 damage with a two handed weapon. Cleave got nerfed, it's true. As for weapon spec groups, my warrior always had multiple weapons for different situations (+1 ghost touch, adamantine etc), so it's great to get through damage types with different weapons including bash/pierce/slash. Medium armor is FAR from worthless for those early 6 levels as heavy armor is expensive; the game includes low levels too. Late game, you need at least a +3 dex bonus to be a sword/board fighter if you intend on using stand still to defend teammates and full plate has a +1, that means an additional +2 to your AC and CMB/CMD. And the movement in heavy armor is absolutely crucial. How are you going to fight if you can't reach the battle? Piell posted:Casters get an additional skill to pick, since they don't have to take concentration. They combined the skills in a stupid fashion - spot/listen/hide/move silently/tumble were already some of the best skills in the game, and combining them just made them far BETTER than pretty much anything else. Meanwhile worthless skills like appraise are still around. Fighters still only have 2 skill points. Wizards getting tons of skill points is built into the game mechanics. They have 10 different knowledges that are all class skills. If something happens, the wizard better know what it is and what to do about it. Yes, appraise, swim, and, to a lesser degree, climb are pretty crappy; no argument. But they added fly as a skill, so that makes up for it. WTF do fighters need more than 2 skill points for? All they need is acrobatics and a little ride. Zarick posted:I just love this part, because most of the stuff you're saying Pathfinder "fixed" was actually fixed better in 4e, and all the skills are actually useful in 4e. It's laughable to say that stat modifiers overriding skill ranks in 4e didn't happen in 3.5e as well, and especially laughable in the specific example you mentioned because the wizard could just take Craft if he wanted; thanks to skill points being Intelligence based he could have a giant pile and no real need for them. Again, the wizard skill points are built into the mechanics so he can work on his 10 separate knowledges. I didn't notice they removed the maximum skill placement of 3 ranks per level. Even so, if the 4e wizard takes craft at 15, he is pretty much the greatest craftsman ever. In PF, at least it takes several levels to build up. Zarick posted:As far as disrupting spells by standing adjacent... how do you stand next to the flying invisible wizard raining spells on you from the air? A bucket of paint and a net: congratulations, you have just been hosed by kobolds. I did that once with my goblin rogue to PK the wizard who was being an rear end. gently caress that wizard. Also, you need to be level 11 to cast greater invisibility. At that point, there are plenty of monsters who are immune to illusions including undead, stronger deamons/devils, constructs, elementals, not to mention the ones who have blind sight (or tremor sense if indoors/underground). Don't forget breath weapons and AOE attacks don't have to be exact. All the wizard ridiculousness assumes you have the advantage. Because they have so few hps and are easily disrupted, they may be completely hosed in the surprise round. Save or lose spells aren't very useful when you never get to cast them. Yes, there are great scouting spells and sacrificial summons, but an intelligent opponent won't reveal himself until the real units show up. Basically, the wizards are overpowered if your DM is a retard who just shoves encounters in front of you without any thought or strategy.
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Mar 21, 2010 22:29
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Piell posted:Horses don't have reach. Plus a good wizard never lets a enemy get close to him, through fly, invisibility, summons, noncasters as speedbumps, etc. If you are going to bring up "but what if he loses initative", a level 20 diviner is never going to lose initiative. My bad, i misread most for all for the reach. It's not only a matter of going first, it's a matter of being able to assure your own safety in one round because you are so fragile. Summons and other characters are going to be ignored by an intelligent opponent. Even non-DnD games, kill the glass-cannon is a universal rule of thumb for video-games. Piell posted:Multiple weapons are fine, but there isn't any reason you can't have multiples of the same weapon. In fact, getting different weapons is a good way to gently caress yourself over - Weapon-specific feats like improved critical don't transfer to weapon groups, so being a general is worse in every way than specializing in a weapon. The crit tree works for all weapons but it does require that you have one weapon focus. I will concede that the weapon groups are inferior to weapon specs but they come for free, improve over time, and stack with those feats. Piell posted:As to the point about dex bonuses, each point of Dexterity you have is a point you could have in Strength or Constitution or something. There are builds that can use the increased max dex bonus, but for most it isn't going to matter. I forgot that pathfinder made medium armor better, so I will concede that it isn't worthless. On the heavy armor front, if you want speed, you get someone to cast Haste on you. Again, dual weapons and defensive shield warriors need solid dex bonuses to be effective. Dual weapons will have a minimum 19 dex to get greater two weapon fighting and shield warriors need bonus dex for stand still. Besides, at higher levels shield warriors are going to have a ridiculous AC and, unlike hp, AC gets exponentially better with every single point. So, dex reduces physical damage AND aoe damage through reflex saves. Piell posted:But you claimed that class skills didn't matter? Thus wizards get even better than in 3.5. I said class skills don't give you a penalty, essentially get 3 free ranks, so if someone should know something it should be the guy that gets massive bonuses to know-stuff skills. Most of the DC's are 15-20, so you need a good amount of ranks to be reliable. Arcana is even higher. Piell posted:They need more than 2 skill points if they want to do something other than "stand around and hit people in combat." Wizards have a vast number of skills that allow them to be useful out of combat, as do some noncasters, and this doesn't even get into all the poo poo spells let you do out of combat. But fighters can't do anything out of combat since they have no useful skills or class abilities, and they aren't as good in combat either. If you want to do something REALLY nifty with him, give him a ton of handle animal, get the animal affinity feat, and rear a wild animal at a difficulty of 15+HD. Mounted combat becomes a lot more interesting when you have an ankylosaurus as a mount for a measly 25 Handle animal check. Yeah, other classes can do it too, but fighters have the feats to spend on mounted combat (which requires high ride, a dex modifier!). Piell posted:4E doesn't have a craft skill because almost no one gives a poo poo about crafting. Mundane crafting in 3.5 and Pathfinder is incredibly terrible. Even if you added a Craft skill to 4E, it makes sense - he is a great crafter because he is a badass hero. Craft was an example, and just because you are a badass hero doesn't mean you should master a skill you just learned yesterday better than someone who has practiced it for years. Piell posted:So the goblin magically knew where the wizard was and was able to both get close and hit him? Sounds like DM fiat. You want the story? Ok, short version. 3.5. We fight a black dragon in a swamp, the wizard gets dropped into negatives in the middle of battle, the fighter stands over him to grant concealment, and I bring him back with a wand(or scroll?) of cure mod. He nukes the dragon down. Then he wants all the loot because he "did all the work", casts invisibility and moves away. So, I follow his foot steps and horizontally splash brackish swamp muck into the square they end in. He is covered in black crap, then the fighter quick draws a net. Piell posted:There is no such thing as "immune to illusions", and if there were, it would apply to illusions cast on them. Invisible creatures can't be seen without something like see invisibility or blind sight, undead and constructs and such cannot see them unless they have one of those abilities. My bad, was thinking immunity to mind effecting. Either way greater invisibility lasts for 1 round per lvl. Piell posted:This is funny, because not only do diviners get massive initiative boosts, they always get to act in the surprise round. Woops, your point is worthless! Also I like how your monsters can automatically tell the difference between a real foe and a scout or summon. And how they manage to perfectly conceal themselves until the wizard gets close, and get to him easily, and kill him in one round. This assume the wizard is not: A) a diviner, who is always going to go first, B)not good at perception, and no one in the party is good at perception either, and C)doesn't have any defensive spells up. I'm not saying most monsters will be able to tell which is the real foe, I'm saying the intelligent ones who know you are coming because you rest for 8 hours every five minutes to restore your spell slots, which you are going to have to do if you dump 2-3 protective spells on yourself per battle. I think you're right, diviners are busted. As for the perception rolls, most of the time you are going to be fine, but every once in a while you will be completely hosed and may have a party wipe. Protection spells like invisibility and fly are 1 round/lvl; you need them cast in advance. RagnarokAngel posted:How is "well if you design the encounter specifically around loving up the wizard" good game design anyway? Anything you do to the wizard can be done to the fighter at 10 times the impact. Fighter you can just strong arm to death but wizard you have to think "smart"? That doesnt strike you as a balance issue?  ), and an awesome chase scene. Anything that isn't just your standard boring encounter is going to gently caress unprepared casters.
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Mar 22, 2010 06:04
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Chernori posted:Just to make sure I understand, you're arguing that wizards are balanced versus other classes, because he was able to be taken down by two player characters in an environment that completely favoured them? At this point i've come to accept that magic classes are more powerful than others, but that isn't what I meant by this statement. I meant that those two characters could be CR 1/3 kobolds, in this situation it was just us ganking the prick wizard. Either way, I guess it's true, the casters are just overpowered.
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Mar 24, 2010 22:31
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Danhenge posted:A 20th level wizard who is int focused has 5 ninth level spells and literally 50 other spells of various levels to cast. One more per level if he's specialized and a whole 80 hit points! that's almost as much as a single meteor swarm from a pit fiend! oh....wait.......no....it's nowhere near a full barrage.......
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Nov 9, 2010 06:56
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