Pathfinder RPG: sqrt(13)th Edition

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Pathfinder RPG: sqrt(13)th Edition

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The game is pretty balanced when given the proper setting. It is NOT made to be a battle royal, all of the classes have a purpose and they all fulfill their purpose very well. I find that when people say this they tend to lack an imagination.

The proper setting being "the caster-players being really good at playing the game terribly", or hitching your game up to the Railroad.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2010 08:37

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# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 08:57

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

mixitwithblop posted:

How about not playing with min-maxing nerds instead.

But then you wouldn't be playing D&D.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2010 09:02

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

rock rock posted:

I'm a fan of limiting casting classes by giving the PCs goals that need to be accomplished in a limited time frame. Things like 'the kings son has been kidnapped, save him'. If they gently caress around too long, they will fail, the prince will be dead.
Gives the game a fun urgency aswell.
Of course, fighter types still have to resource manage hitpoints, which often comes back to divine casters spells /day, but that's what wands of cure light wounds are for.
But without spending a poo poo ton of gold (another resource), casters only have a few high level spells to use for the quest. This can be a fair bit of planning to get the right amount of stuff to do vs. spells per day, but you can always add or subtract later encounters if you screwed up.

This is the balance that always gets overlooked in 3.5. Sure, your wizard isn't gonna die (teleport), but as long as you're not doing some cheesy dungeon crawl, he has limitations. Sure, he's still more powerful than Fights McGee, but the bard or rogue who can find out where the prince is held captive with a Gather Information check just saved the wizard from casting scry, which is another spell to cast later that day.
An example of an adventure set up like this (I've just flicked through it at some one on here's recomendation) is Paizo's Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale, where the PCs have a limited time frame to acheive their goals, or atleast get rewarded for achieving them quicker.

Chugga chugga choo choo all aboard the plot-o-rail. Please keep your minds and thoughts inside the previously-decided choices at all times. Enjoy playing through scripted quick-time events and random encounter rolls. You can't get there, thats only for the next disk.

Which edition was supposed to be the video-gamey one again?

# ¿ Feb 24, 2010 09:10

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

I'm not against time-limited adventures at all. But if the adventure doesn't have ramifications for failing to beat the time limit, then there isn't really a time limit at all, is there? And following that, one of the best ways to include possible ramifications into the game is to have the players face losing an NPC or building that they invested time and emotion into- such as in the middle of a larger campaign. Unless you're throwing world-ending plots during the first level, characters really don't have much invested in Jimmy the Prince beyond the reward.

Time limits are curve-balls to be inserted into the larger game's vision because there simply has to be player agency overall rather than saving/capturing the DM's MacGuffin. As a day one expectation in order to balance the game, time limits are terrible.

And if your campaign doesn't involve the Wizard preparing a Teleport or other spell to use before resting up every day, it is because you ended it before level 9 (or again playing with retarded wizards). At that point you might as well port in the E6 house-rules.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2010 12:13

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

mixitwithblop posted:

One interesting thing he says is "Paizo is developing 3 Iphone apps for the Pathfinder Role Playing Game. Those should be released relatively shortly." "One of the apps is called the Live Character Sheet..." Apparently it works networked, and you can say, cast bless and select the other characters and everyone's iphone gets updated...

Don't worry 1st world swine, only rich people will ever want to play our game.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2010 00:00

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

iPhone Apps are another step on the predestined path of RPGs being squandered into the Model Train hobby ghetto. I'm sorry that fat fucks with a pirate goatee think that they are being at all "innovative" by making the game more and more dependent on mid-adult spending limits.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2010 01:50

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Well yes, of course Pathfinder has to develop something instead of play WoW all day, and of all things iPhone apps is probably the most utilitarian thing for the one-in-ten groups that all have an iPhone.

But the flip side is that having an iPhone do all the squiggly math inherent in the "2000 spell buff" 3.5 base system is going to further invest the developers into doing nothing to make the game easier for people who don't have a spiffy gadget to do all the work for them.

What really makes it terrible is the fact that it is actually really drat nice to have the app on hand when a Dispel Magic effect takes out only 1/3rd of the buffs that the Cleric had running, and because that's the new expectation of the game players on the outside are having to struggle through an obviously poorly implemented design.

But hey, if you're okay playing solely to the Model Train crowd and never having a group of teenagers play your game, then more power to you.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2010 05:20

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Mikan posted:

When did Paizo ever attempt to make the 3.5 system easier

This is a good point, and I should have said that I both expect that Piazo will eventually release an "Advanced Pathfinder" edition and pray that it would have gone in a more 4E easier-to-play route. I remember reading on ENWorld that they're already doing a Warlord-clone. And even with that said, there is a good chance that iPhone-esque smartphones could be ubiquitous by the time that comes around (or even 5E, when you think about it).

But currently, iPhones are not things you hand to teenagers (even the dorky types that play DnD on the weekend), and so seeing one of the "#2" game companies fully committing to serving the 30+ age bracket it depresses me about the state of the hobby. And you don't need to be a loving trust-fund doctor to afford a Model Train set either- but you definitely don't start that hobby before you're 25-30. Its not about the cost but the age.

So the thesis of the whole "gently caress them and their model trains too" statement is that I really, really, really don't want to have to start a DnD group in ten years and be surrounded by the same 35-year-old fucks that I didn't want to start a game with when they were 25.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2010 05:49

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

^^^ Are you really going to pick at semantics and rhetoric here? They're all but admitting that their game doesn't run well unless you have a smartphone to do the piles of math and are releasing a crutch to mitigate that. Selfishly, I'd rather they work on a start-up game that is as easy to understand and play as one of those basic boxes back in the 70s. Okay, that's a lie, I'd rather they spend the time making a system that worked, but c'est la vie.

Mikan posted:

That said, Pathfinder isn't marketed for new gamers anyway. It's a reprint of an older D&D system with some houserules specifically marketed and created for people who don't want to switch to the newest version for whatever reason. If new people are getting into this hobby, they're going to go with 4e (and eventually 5e or 6e).
Well, or World of Darkness.

So then I'm angry that grognards exist and have a company pandering to them, and that they (the Grognard demographic) will never, ever try to grow the hobby by making a good game like Green Ronin or Crafty Games.

My God. It is me. I am the Grognard.

I'll go post myself in .txt right now.

Oh wait.

I already did.

Gerund fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Feb 26, 2010

# ¿ Feb 26, 2010 05:57

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Mikan posted:

The only thing I see weird about this is that iPod apps are actually more of a tool to market the system to new gamers, they're the ones most interested in using technology as part of the game.

"new", sure, but not young. And I understand your sentiment of sort of wishing that there was 1st party support (I imagine something already exists otherwise) for something like that at my 4E game, but I've never really seen the need unless you have one of those beardy types that swaps characters every week and doesn't know how all his powers work.

I think we'd have to see an RPG with virtual table-top compatibility like THIS before we really tap into that "new gamer" market.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2010 06:21

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Mikam, 75% of iPhone users are over 25, so are we debating what young means? And I'm pretty sure that the 16-year-old iPhone demographic has more competing for their attention such as Snowboarding.

Angry Diplomat posted:

if you want the hobby to grow then go buy some other systems instead of bitching about a company's entirely sensible decisions in an internet thread.

But that's my point- it isn't really sensible. DDI tools and such are great because they are ways to make the away-from-table dithering. A company spending resources developing an app for an iphone to solve something that shouldn't even exist is depressing at best. Collectively, I'd rather the RPG hobby companies continue to try as a whole to grow the market than work on projects that aren't related to anything but serving the 25+ clannish mentality.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2010 06:47

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Nothing like dredging up a discussion off the second page bbuuuuuttttttttt

Angry Diplomat posted:

what do you mean "shouldn't even exist." the system exists in its present state precisely because there is a strong core of players who prefer the system to work in exactly that way. this is a game marketed specifically to a particular subgroup of gamers, and some of those gamers will enjoy this app and will use it. this means that it is entirely reasonable and in fact highly recommended for paizo to create it, because they can parlay it into corporate gain

also please define "growing the market" and explain to me how a company is to do this productively by abandoning its flagship line and refusing to pursue little side projects related to it, thanks

The Pathfinder system is a mess. I think if we're going to like hyperbole like Death to 3.5 then I think we're in agreement. That "strong core" of system-devotees (Does Piazo even translate? I think they're an english-only company) exists, as Tolan said, as supplemental to their core business of Adventure paths et al. Saying that even a major chunk of the Pathfinder customer base is playing it because they love the system is ludicrous to me. Say they don't want to convert to 4E or that they have all these books to use, sure, but the system itself is a Jenga tower of ill-suited rules.

Now, is this app going to drive a profit? I imagine, but ultimately it will be a pyrrhic thing- selling to the already easily-advertised app-crazy gadget loving wonks and not piercing into a wider "gamer" market. Part of this is because Pathfinder is a lovely system that needs a smart-phone to play reasonably* and that cost becomes an additional barrier to entry for the under-25 set (as you've heard me say before without trying to argue with it). Are groups really going to be any more inviting when it turns out that to join up you should get a smartphone and maybe your own 500 page handbook?

And so when I say "growing the market", I mean working on products that are not restrictive and short-sighted like an iPhone app: such as a starter-box as I said before. Still related, and far more useful to a larger public than "hey check this new feature for my iPhone."

*When DM'ing 3.5 I made Dispel magic an all-or-nothing spell because of how loving annoying the whole half-suite powers was to add up, which in turn made it at times very annoying or completely useless.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2010 07:55

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

happyelf posted:

yeah this is actually looking kinda interesting, looks like they have a system set up for running kingdoms

hopefully the system doesn't have too many 3e germs on it!

actually, seriously, what would a mechanic have to be built like in order to be unpalatable to a 4E game? Make being a King a prestige class? (sorry, Skill Focus, rule a kingdom). I mean at some point it all breaks down to roll a bunch of d20s unless the world board is somehow as tactically rich as the combat grid- which I hope Piazo did, really.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2010 10:29

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# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 08:57

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Tolan posted:

So they've released the second chapter in the Kingmaker AP, which has an article about building your kingdom. A couple folks had expressed some interest in it, so here's a quick rundown.

Then three questions about it:

How easy is it to convert to 4E?

Does the "fluff" of the city make it that-adventure only?

How much does it cost to purchase just that, without any pathfinder crap?

# ¿ Apr 21, 2010 20:35

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