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Gul Banana posted:I might have an opportunity to play in a Pathfinder game irl soon, but I'm a bit dubious. I'm more of a 'role'player myself, and I've heard that it's a very complicated, unbalanced system - I do like wargames too, but prefer those to be lightweight tightly-integrated things. Does anyone have any thoughts or advice? Is it really true that you have to pick the right class or just be underpowered forever? Do the people you're playing with feel the same way? If so, you're probably all right. But to answer your question, yes, all the primary spellcasters (Cleric, Druid, Sorceror, and Wizard) are going to end up more powerful in the long run. Around level 12 or so, the balance (or lack thereof) can start to become apparent. However, this also assumes that they pick certain types of powers that force the enemy to save or take either huge damage or a serious negative effect, such as death. Other classes are fun however, and despite what people will tell you, you can get poo poo done without being a spellcaster. I'd get a feel for the group and see what the overall direction is.
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Feb 22, 2010 07:31
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One thing of note is that it seems like the full casters are the only ones to get to Legendary proficiency in their saving throws. I think other classes generally get to master, so dedicated casters should be a little bit better overall at forcing saves than other classes.
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Aug 5, 2019 15:23
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There's a lot of pretty cool high-level Athletics and Acrobatics skill feats which will work well for a fighter. They get a 1/day ability at 14 to end a condition or "dispel" a spell on them that seems pretty good. They obviously get a ton of specialist attack options and whatnot. I think the level 8 feat that lets you knock flying things out of the sky while you're riding them is pretty awesome, and they have the ability to just grab that when they know they're dragon hunting or whatever at level 9 or 10 thanks to a class ability. But yeah a lot of the actual "this is crazy mythic hero stuff" comes in the skill feats like jumping 60+ feet or falling any distance for no damage.
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Aug 14, 2019 20:52
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Kylra posted:Twin Takedown and Two Weapon Flurry are both really nice, but they also can't be used as your first action, which means some multiattack penalty. I think you're confusing the Flourish and Press tags.
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Aug 15, 2019 18:49
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I think that power attack/2 handers look better outside the vacuum as mentioned. Ranger needs to set up Prey, people will be moving sometimes which eats into action economy for TWF, AoO is better for bigger weapons, etc. Like in a first round the ranger has to set Prey, move, then attacks. Compared to a power attack with a +2 to hit (and to crit by extension if the AC isn't really high) that's not impressive. But the next round, if things stay put, then the flurry of attacks will be significant. Damage reduction will affect the 2H less, area attacks as mentioned, etc. Even if one is better in the optimized situation, things look close enough that you're not shooting yourself in the foot by going with any particular build.
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Aug 15, 2019 19:44
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Well, RAW, you might not act first. If you were sneaking, everyone would roll Stealth for their init, and you'd all be Unnoticed or Undetected depending on the situation. The enemies would have whatever perception as init, but would need to take actions to actually perceive you as far as I can see. The roll for init wouldn't automatically spot anyone, and if people had failed their stealth rolls to sneak up on them in the first place, then they'd already be Observed or Hidden, depending, I think. So the high-stealth sneakers could easily act first then get jumped by the low-init perception people, potentially, which does seem weird. Might not be correct but that's how it reads to me?
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Aug 16, 2019 20:56
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So uh, Certain Strike with a Forceful weapon sure is something.
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Aug 27, 2019 12:27
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Forceful calculates as if you hit, so on a third attack it still does Str+Specialization+2x#dice. Which gets quite high on fighter as you get to higher levels. You just don't roll the weapon dice. At 20 you're losing the 4dX damage, but on a fighter would still be landing like 22 damage on a missed attack. It's really good.
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Aug 27, 2019 17:25
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Kylra posted:Failure Your attack deals any damage it would have dealt on a hit, excluding all damage dice. (This removes damage dice from weapon runes, spells, and special abilities, in addition to weapon damage dice.) I can highlight things too. You calculate damage, then remove the dice. It's just saying you don't roll the usual damage dice when you miss. At least, that's my reading. I could see it going either way, but I think it at least needs clarification. If it doesn't work with Forceful ultimately, it will definitely still work with Rage for similar amounts of damage. Certain Strike is really really good. Desperate Finisher and Quicken/Weapon Supremacy give you 5 attacks a round.
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Aug 28, 2019 00:20
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Kylra posted:By raw you roll the dice at damage calculation time as the first step and then apply bonuses if we're going to get super technical. Yeah, you'd just archetype as Barbarian and get Rage at level 2. You don't need to start as Barbarian, and obviously can't as mentioned. Kylra posted:You also can't get the fury rage specialziation ability for plain +6 damage during rage with archetype feats as it is not the instinct ability which is what is grantable by archetype feats. You could get basic Titan Mauler for +6 (but not its upgrades), but you also get basically permanent clumsy 1 (-1 ref, -1 AC, -1 dex skill checks). And you have to get a second archetype feat to do it. Yeah, you just do this. You can get that by level 4, and the "build" doesn't need any particular feats below level 10. Anyway it's all a bit of a math exercise. Certain Strike itself is what's out of line in my book. Adding everything but dice is going to break things in terms of damage dealt per action. Even with no modifiers other than specialization and strength, I think that spamming CS comes out at the top of the pile, though more in-line with other math.
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Aug 28, 2019 12:12
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Kylra posted:Possibly neat character idea, a dual weilding fighter with a gauntlet in offhand, so there's no need for handwraps and you can use doubling rings. You can get the action advantage of some of the two weapon ability feats, but can also constantly grab basically any one thing every round before your turn ends. And you can put a buckler on your offhand for good measure. Generally the special attacks aren't gonna keep pace in terms of damage since they're basically all 2-actions for one hit. Causing flat-footed for allies is definitely relevant though, as is frightened, which are both good options. Kylra posted:Also brawling critical specialization (fists, gauntlets) is to inflict slowed 1 which is pretty dang good and at least arguably the best specialization effect. I think Flail is also a very good specialization. Knockdown for a lot of things is going to eat an action effectively, and prone gives you flat-footed. Sword is okay, flat-footed on anything that can be without worry about things that can't be grabbed or knocked down or whatever.
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Aug 28, 2019 14:17
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To throw in my own idea of what I want to actually build: Spiked Chain for maximum edgelord, with the Lunging stance later on, and knockdown. Finesse build that can Lunge to trip, crit knockdowns, Improved Knockdown is hilarious for auto-crit tripping things. Take Titan Wrestler skill feat so you can knock down dragons with your chain at Legendary skill. Go for max reactions to try and abuse that (standing up from prone is a Move action and triggers AoO!). Ideally paired with a Rogue or really any melee class. Just this fight scene, but pointy: https://youtu.be/O8z5BXbFLCE Slab Squatthrust fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 14:23
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Oh no, we're back the half-ogre with the spiked chain provoking AoOs build again... It's arguably stronger with Gnome Flickmace for reach. On Fighter at least you can still get the max Proficiency at level 6 with a feat to keep your crit chance higher.
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Aug 28, 2019 14:32
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Kylra posted:Combat grab and snagging strike are both one action, as is advantageous assault. Intimidating Assault and Knockdown are the only two I remember offhand requiring two actions. Intimidating Assault is probably still worth it since frightened is really good, it gets around the Demoralize 1 minute immunity limitation, and you can combine it with Shatter Defenses to sustain it as that is also a 1 action strike. Which if you're flanking it's already flatfooted so you require only 1 hit. The Fortitude save is a pretty big deal, the slow won't be at all reliable. Taking a -2 to hit for being prone is a bigger deal than I think you're giving credit but I'm definitely not going to argue that Slowed isn't a strong thing to inflict. I do think most enemies would try and stand to get rid of the -2 to hit and +2 to be hit penalties. Combat Grab definitely looks good, but the 1-hand requirement is not nothing. Less damage and it is a Press attack, which means you can't open with it. Snagging Strike is only flat footed and as you mentioned there's a fair number of ways to get it. If CG wasn't Press I think I'd like it a lot more, but trying to land the hit there is tougher. If you pump Athletics though, you have a good chance of hanging on through the enemy turn and either burning actions from them trying to escape, or just trading blows while they're grabbed. Which is really good if you're trying to defend squishier party members from stuff. Realistically, I don't think there's a wrong way to build a fighter other than trying to go the Disarm route, since you have to Crit Succeed to disarm.
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Aug 28, 2019 15:50
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Kylra posted:A fort regular failure is going to be easier to get than a crit hit, especially past the first attack, so it not going to be that much less reliable (which crit effects are not super reliable anyway). Well, the first crit needs a crit and the failed save, which is a bit of a tall order. Against weaker enemies it'll work fairly often I imagine as Fighter has a good Fort save to test against. Like I said, I think there's a lot of viable builds from damage to condition focused and they're all pretty good.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:44
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Also maybe a comparison vs 5e since that's the main entrance point to the hobby for lots of people.
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Aug 31, 2019 13:49
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Kylra posted:There's already feats for adding more reach to anything. (For fighters) All of this is correct, but the shield build is strong as you level up in it. Extra reactions come along if you want that, +2 AC vs. an extra attack at -8 or -10 is a good deal if you want it, and you get to decide to block after the hit and damage are rolled, so you can eat smaller hits without damaging the shield, potentially. Flail being able to knockdown on crit isn't super reliable but it's really strong, and Reach is good to have in general. It's really good to have a flail with reach because most of the other reach weapons are polearms, which have probably the worst crit specialization of all. If the enemy stays prone, attacks the tanky character twice at a penalty, and doesn't move then that's perfect. They're not going to threaten the squishy characters doing that, and take cover is nice eats an action to not help them in melee at all.
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Sep 2, 2019 16:51
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Or have other options for Reach weapons that aren't Polearms. The Polearm spec is super weak, by far the worst of the options, and flail is among the best. I assume that they made Polearm weak because Reach is really strong, but making the Flickmace Advanced isn't a huge deal for Fighter or any Humans/Gnomes. Either it just needs to not be reach (which makes it useless so you'd need to give it something else back) or all the Polearms should be broken out into other specializations like Axe/Spear/Sword/etc and then you could either make it martial and uncommon or give it another small trait as a bonus to keep it Advanced.
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Sep 3, 2019 20:51
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Kylra posted:With polearm crit spec you can tear out an action from melee targets by moving them 5' out of their reach of targets and forcing them to move to get back in range (even if it's a step), or pulling something with reach greater than or equal to yours towards you and forcing them to stride if they want to get away from you effectively. With greivous rune and enlargement (or some other way to get 15' reach) you can potentially force strides to get in melee range (and thus AoOs or an extra burned action). Or maybe just move them into the center of an AoO mosh pit or flanked position. It's finicky and maybe lower on the power pole, but it's probably the best out of the forced movements since you choose the direction and doesn't force you to knock them out of your range. I'd also rate it a bit better than sword. Disagree on better than sword, since you're most likely to crit on the first attack to open up flat footed for later swings, and it lasts along the round for other players and for your AoO to use as well. The movement effect is...fine. But if you're trying to use movement to control an enemies spacing then you're probably using Shoves or one of the several Fighter abilities that always push already, which means the crit effect is going to be wasted any time you actually needed movement. Also, causing a knockdown on an AoO will completely burn that target's movement action, a 5 foot push will usually do nothing. I will admit it's better than Club which is also really bad, but that's a pretty small consolation prize.
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Sep 4, 2019 02:18
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Yeah I mean, I can see parts of Alchemist being bad, but the Bomber build seems okay. Lots of AoE, you can use Calculated/Expanded Splash with Sticky Bomb to have some nasty persistent damage effects that will either cause a lot of damage or burn lots of actions on things trying to put them out. Then you still have all the mutagens and healing options to toss at people as needed, poisons are an option, etc. Seems ok to me even if the direct damage isn't fantastic?
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Sep 5, 2019 12:37
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I could see an issue with that allowance with multiclassing. Taking Multitalented at 9 then retraining lower feats into the Basic feat to unlock a higher level Advanced feat without losing a slot for the Archetype feat itself. Probably shouldn't be allowed, because you weren't multiclassing at those levels. That's the only thing I can think of that fits that scenario.
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Sep 10, 2019 20:14
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Apparatchik Magnet posted:You did Exacting Strike right. This, but also ES is a pretty boring ability. It only works if you can make 3 attacks and miss the second one, most of the other fighter stuff is more interesting, and after a couple more levels there's a lot of other press attacks to use that do much cooler things. There's built in retraining and stuff of course, but you might also nudge the player to see if they're really gonna want to be using it over some other options.
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Nov 4, 2019 23:25
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Selachian posted:I do like that there are several possible actions that can earn you panache -- if all else fails, you can just try to tumble through an enemy's space. The 1E swashbuckler suffered from the fact that you could only gain panache randomly through critical hits, or by striking a killing blow, which all too frequently led to "hey guys, don't kill that orc just yet, I need him for panache." Yeah, gaining it to start combat by rolling a certain ability for initiative is just gravy.
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Nov 9, 2019 19:35
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Toshimo posted:A Shove is (or Grapple or Trip) is an Action with the Attack trait. Actions with the Attack trait are Attack Rolls. It doesn't matter if you doing a Strike Action against AC or a Shove Action against a DC, they are still Actions with the Attack trait, and thus, Attack Rolls. So, yes, no ,matter the order, you will take a MAP on any Attack Roll after the first on your turn. Worth noting that Demoralize and Feint are actions that can happen in combat and are not Attack actions. Makes them very useful third actions for characters that don't need to move, or can't set up a flank for flat-footed for some reason.
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Nov 25, 2019 16:30
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Piell posted:Also Shove/Grapple/Trip if you have the Assurance feat, if you're keeping up on skill increases there's a decent amount of enemies you can autohit. True enough, and it's always handy to be able to just declare "yeah I don't fall into the pit/off the wall/out of the tree" for simple checks that relate. Anias posted:The Harm Spell is a single action non-attack that deals 1d8 damage at touch range (it allows a fort save). That's kinda hilarious. I wonder if that's intended or not?
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Nov 25, 2019 19:56
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There is a lot more narrative stuff thrown into feats which, while not exclusive to martial classes or anything, does mean that they're able to have big effects with skills that aren't just playing mother-may-I with the DM. Some martial classes do also get some interesting feats they can use that would be useful outside of combat as well as in it, though not the Fighter really. Combining the cool skill feats with the fact that every class gets the same number of skill boosts after creation (except Rogues which get double), and the much improved stat boosts at character creation and while leveling, means that characters can be built to be optimized in combat and still have good skills/stats for exploring/talking/whatever else you want to focus on. You don't need to build a lovely fighter so that you can participate on the game meaningfully outside of combat. Spells also, as mentioned, are toned down a bit and have rarities assigned so that the really crazy high-level stuff isn't all just there for the taking for every single caster in existence.
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Dec 2, 2019 14:57
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And don't forget fighters can grab some extra feats each day starting at level 8, I think. So you can actually take just a couple archers feats as you level, and then pick up some extra ones on days where you think you'll need them if you want.
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Mar 26, 2020 17:18
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Kvantum posted:Let's take it to the absurd. Level 19 Monk with One-Inch Punch and +3 Major Striking Handwraps of Mighty Blows. This isn't really a great comparison without going into attack values, because all of the damage from OIP would be landing at full attack, where a monk going all in with 4 attacks (thanks to flurry) is stacking up some substantial MAP on the 2nd-4th attacks.
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Aug 1, 2020 03:26
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I should apparently go to bed because I completely missed that.
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Aug 1, 2020 03:58
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Rip_Van_Winkle posted:
Quickened is only 1/day, you realize, right? It's not really going to help you out all that much imo.
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Sep 12, 2020 20:47
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Anias posted:Combat in 2e is extremely the same, on the player side, and it essentially optimizes itself. Classes fall into buckets for engagement range, but after that very rough sort they mostly play interchangeably in terms of “move here, cast my spell, or move here attack with my attack.” If you journal what your actions are for a couple of combats and look back over it the sameness stands out. The 3a system is designed to reduce player complexity at the table, and does so at the cost of combats feeling similar. If the current flavor of combat is what you like, this works fine. If you don’t like the available player-action recipe, you can try changing the range you fight at from close to a few feet away and see if you like that experience more, but it will also be fairly stagnate. Pf1e and d4e both had more varied recipes for player actions in combat, and thus more depth. Yes, you could brute force encounters but for this discussion I’m not trying to claim the other systems are better at balance or w/e, just noting that they are more complex action sequences. This will be resolved by splatbook glut in time im sure. Neither pf1e or d4e started with the complexity they grew into. I'm playing a level 3 fighter, and I'm definitely not just going "move here and attack" because that's actually a bad way to play. I'm setting up coverage with my reach weapon for AoO, tripping, attacking, and also sometimes filling in with spot healing through battle medicine. As I get to higher levels, a lot more flexibility will get rolled in thanks to various class/archetype talents. If all players are doing is strikes, that's on them for building in a way that only wants to strike.
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Sep 24, 2020 16:58
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