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Copernic
Sep 16, 2006

...A Champion, who by mettle of his glowing personal charm alone, saved the universe...

Ballsworthy posted:

Nope, Monza totally hosed her brother

I gave up on Best Served Cold about 5/8s through and have 0 regrets. Every single chapter was the exact same setpiece.

1. Monza identifies the next hit and the team sets up
2. Bickering/Squabbling
3. Slight setback in the assassination plan
4. Long battle/assassination piece
5. Someone betrays somebody
6. Gore
7. Musings about nature of revenge.

Then, next chapter.

No one was likeable. The writing veered into grimdark. The characters were so personally hosed up it verged on comedy. But it was the predictable plot formula that finally made me put it down -- I found myself thinking "oh, boy, ANOTHER betrayal" and gave up.

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Ballsworthy
Apr 30, 2008

yup
While I'll never understand people complaining about how they don't want to be bffs with a main character, I just reread BSC a couple weeks ago and I definitely noticed all those other things you mentioned. It's just that all the things Abercrombie does that I like, characters/setting/voice/humor, more than make up for it for me.

ninja edit: and while the plot can be thin on the ground floor sometimes, the overarcing conflict Bayaz v Khalul definitely has me interested still.

Benagain
Oct 10, 2007

Can you see that I am serious?
Fun Shoe

Copernic posted:

I gave up on Best Served Cold about 5/8s through and have 0 regrets. Every single chapter was the exact same setpiece.

1. Monza identifies the next hit and the team sets up
2. Bickering/Squabbling
3. Slight setback in the assassination plan
4. Long battle/assassination piece
5. Someone betrays somebody
6. Gore
7. Musings about nature of revenge.

Then, next chapter.

No one was likeable. The writing veered into grimdark. The characters were so personally hosed up it verged on comedy. But it was the predictable plot formula that finally made me put it down -- I found myself thinking "oh, boy, ANOTHER betrayal" and gave up.

You missed out! The ending's awesome.

Orange Carebear
Aug 25, 2009
It's worth mentioning that this series, at least IMO, goes well past the 'shade of gray' idea and into full on black fantasy. I'm not talking ASoIaF grey, I'm talking everyone gets hosed hard and the only truly likable characters seem to get hosed the hardest. Abercrombie is a fantastic writer, but his work is simply too dark and depressing for me. I haven't bought BSC and unless I hear reviews of future work that is a little more balanced (twisting the usual fantasy archetypes and dishing out plenty of pain makes for great reading, but there was literally NO ONE you felt good about at the end of the first trilogy - TBH, even if he had just had West be injured but clearly recovering I would have felt a lot better), I don't think I will be buying any more of his books.

Ballsworthy
Apr 30, 2008

yup
Big surprise coming from a freakin carebear :)

Randy Marsh
May 5, 2007

by T. Finn
That formula only lasts in BSC for I dunno, the first half? That's the point, she has a list of people.

Grand Prize Winner
Feb 19, 2007


Orange Carebear posted:

TBH, even if he had just had West be injured but clearly recovering I would have felt a lot better

I thought that West lived. At least, there's no clear indication that he died. I hope :unsmith:.

All my excitement for the Mountain that Eat's latest work has now gone into this Heroes of Abercrombie's.

Evfedu
Feb 28, 2007
Yeah, Abercrombie's is probably the best Fantasy I've ever read.

Yet to start "Best Served Cold", but TFL was just an absolute loving riot. Everything about that trilogy and how everything fell apart/came together so perfectly was just excellent. And after all this bullshit ASOIAF/Malazan high fantasy crap with the names and everyone talking like they're scripted it's just so refreshing to hear Logen trip over a wall, squawk, and bugger his ankle up in between his time as The Bloody Nine.

Bloody Nine vs Fenris, best fight scene in anything ever?

Bummey
May 26, 2004

you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata

Financial Panther posted:

I really love his style of writing too. I was laughing all the way through the Ferro/Logen sex scene .

Just wait for the [halfway through Best Served Cold] Shivers/Monza sex scene in Visserine. That one's loving ridiculous.

Grand Prize Winner posted:

I thought that West lived. At least, there's no clear indication that he died. I hope :unsmith:.


He dead.

Evfedu posted:

it's just so refreshing to hear Logen trip over a wall, squawk, and bugger his ankle up in between his time as The Bloody Nine.

The clumsiness displayed by some of the characters seems to be a continuing joke.

He should also learn some other words than squawk and croak because god drat, people croak and squawk all the time.

"Oh poo poo, my foot fell off" he croaked.
"Shut up and put it in me" she croaked.
"I just breathed in a lot of smoke and now my throat is raw" he croaked (ok, that one is acceptable.)

Bummey fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Apr 20, 2010

Bummey
May 26, 2004

you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata
fffffff

Randy Marsh
May 5, 2007

by T. Finn

Evfedu posted:

Bloody Nine vs Fenris, best fight scene in anything ever?

Yup, that's why I love this brutal style of writing, it makes that scene so tense because you know anything could happen, the characters aren't protected by what seems like divine intervention.

Mr.48
May 1, 2007

Evfedu posted:

Bloody Nine vs Fenris, best fight scene in anything ever?
Personally, I prefer Logen's fight with the Practicals in The Blade Itself. Maybe its because that was the first time you see him truly go berserk and find out why everyone in the north shits their pants at the mention of his name.

Orange Carebear
Aug 25, 2009

Grand Prize Winner posted:

I thought that West lived. At least, there's no clear indication that he died. I hope :unsmith:.

All my excitement for the Mountain that Eat's latest work has now gone into this Heroes of Abercrombie's.

Its pretty clear that that sickness unleashed by the weapon is pretty much fatal - West looks like a walking corpse the last time we see him. Don't get me wrong, I love killing characters and destroying the usual fantasy formula, but you still have to have SOME redemption in the end, some kind of diamond in the blackness. Abercrombie purposefully sets up and knocks down every fantasy cliche (I thought the readers gradual realization that Byaz is not the gruff but friendly old cliche grandfather wizard was brilliant, but he takes it a step too far IMO.

Evfedu
Feb 28, 2007
Last Argument of Kings spoilers: West had to die, from the moment he beat the poo poo out of his sister. Pushing Ladisla off a cliff just kinda sealed the deal, the man was just too angry to live. It was pretty fitting that he was eaten away from the inside by a wasting illness, even.

I had thought, the diamond in the blackness was Glokta getting into power. If you can rely on anyone to work selflessly, it's him.

Ballsworthy
Apr 30, 2008

yup

Evfedu posted:

I had thought, the diamond in the blackness was Glokta getting into power. If you can rely on anyone to work selflessly, it's him.

Even better, Glokta isn't alone anymore, he at least has someone to talk to now in Ardee

Bummey
May 26, 2004

you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata

Evfedu posted:

Last Argument of Kings spoilers: West had to die, from the moment he beat the poo poo out of his sister.

I don't know, Ardee was an insufferable bitch.

Zasze
Apr 29, 2009

Evfedu posted:

Last Argument of Kings spoilers: West had to die, from the moment he beat the poo poo out of his sister. Pushing Ladisla off a cliff just kinda sealed the deal, the man was just too angry to live. It was pretty fitting that he was eaten away from the inside by a wasting illness, even.

I had thought, the diamond in the blackness was Glokta getting into power. If you can rely on anyone to work selflessly, it's him.


Thats the saddest part about him though, he wanted with every fiber of his being to be a good guy he was just too angry :(

Zasze fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jan 26, 2011

Randy Marsh
May 5, 2007

by T. Finn
Glokta was a good guy too, a hero, he was just totally hosed over in his service, and then reviled for it.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Evfedu posted:

Last Argument of Kings spoilers: West had to die, from the moment he beat the poo poo out of his sister. Pushing Ladisla off a cliff just kinda sealed the deal, the man was just too angry to live. It was pretty fitting that he was eaten away from the inside by a wasting illness, even.

I agree here, but I still felt really sorry for West. He was a genuinely good man who tried to change and sort of managed it, unlike Logen who is an awful man who tried to change and absolutely couldn't. Although Logen when he's trying to change is pretty great; his character throughout Before They Are Hanged, when you can mostly forget who he actually is (or don't entirely know it yet), is probably the most likeable of anyone in The First Law.

Regarding Glokta, the torture scenes with him made me really quite uncomfortable. There are a few things that I just need to see mentioned and it sets me off - any sort of injury to teeth or fingernails (particularly teeth) gets me shivering in animal sympathy - but I think the absolute worst is the torture whereby the victim's arm is chopped off by degrees. It's the brutal, escalating horror of it, going from minor injury to mortal wound, that makes it very hard for me to read. Starting off the torture with what is essentially an over-enthusiastic trimming of the fingernails is a twisted bit of genius.

Torsade de Pointes
Feb 14, 2006

Oh, yeah. I name all the operations that go down in Taipei, even the ones that aren't mine. Operation Latex Turtle, Operation Angry Bees, Operation AAAAAHHHH-YOOOOOOOW! Heh. That was a good one.

John Charity Spring posted:

I agree here, but I still felt really sorry for West. He was a genuinely good man who tried to change and sort of managed it, unlike Logen who is an awful man who tried to change and absolutely couldn't. Although Logen when he's trying to change is pretty great; his character throughout Before They Are Hanged, when you can mostly forget who he actually is (or don't entirely know it yet), is probably the most likeable of anyone in The First Law.

I didn't think he was a bad guy in the books. He sounded like a real bastard when he was younger, but it's not entirely his fault later on. He just goes into uncontrollable psychotic rages at random. He's mentally ill instead of an evil dude.

Smashurbanipal
Sep 12, 2009
ASK ME ABOUT BEING A SHITTY POSTER
It would be fascinating to read an Abercrombie story that has one of the Eaters being the focus. It would fit in perfectly with his style of presenting a character and getting the reader to empathize with them and then exposing the depravity and fuckedupedness of said character. That would switch the focus more to the South a little too. The "Northman" character with his shaggy hair, grunts and Conanesque musculature has become stale.

Mr.48
May 1, 2007

Torsade de Pointes posted:

I didn't think he was a bad guy in the books. He sounded like a real bastard when he was younger, but it's not entirely his fault later on. He just goes into uncontrollable psychotic rages at random. He's mentally ill instead of an evil dude.

Same thing with West. They've both managed to make good men out of themselves, but once in a while they lose control and do things they end up regretting.

Glokta on the other hand is an evil man (willing to torture and condemn to death innocent people just to keep his job) who ends up doing good sometimes when it suits him. Much like Bayaz.

Its the ultimate kick in the balls that the first two men who are good, yet flawed get hosed over, while the two evil men who do good sometimes end up successful.

TShields
Mar 30, 2007

We can rule them like gods! ...Angry gods.
I don't see Glokta as evil, he was just a man who took great pride in his work, whatever his work was. He had a poo poo life, so he focused all his anger about his physical condition into his job, and it made him very effective. And I would have totally been his drinking buddy, just to make sure I didn't end up on the wrong side of the table.

Orange Carebear
Aug 25, 2009

TShields posted:

I don't see Glokta as evil, he was just a man who took great pride in his work, whatever his work was. He had a poo poo life, so he focused all his anger about his physical condition into his job, and it made him very effective. And I would have totally been his drinking buddy, just to make sure I didn't end up on the wrong side of the table.

Glokta essentially does nothing good that does not serve his own purpose and just ends up a puppet of Byaz instead of a puppet of the Arch Lectur (or whatever his name was) - his crowning achievement is dodging the death he so rightfully deserves by twisting the hatred of one of his victims into a tool he can use. When he creates Pike, the first Practical who is well and truly his, Glokta takes that final step onto his inevitable journey into being the next evil puppetmaster, just like his former boss. The only difference between him and the man who he replaced is that he has a better understanding of torture because of his history, and he fearfully serves a different overlord.

He didn't serve as a torturer because of a pride he felt doing work - he worked at his job because it let him temporarily exact his revenge on a new suspect and because it was all he could do besides roll over and die.

Sand is witty and funny at times and we become used to him because he is tragic and we spend a lot of time in his perspective, but you don't really end up liking him as a person.

Grand Prize Winner
Feb 19, 2007


But remember that bit at the end of Kings? The one where Glokta and Luthar discuss making things better for the common man and stuff as best they can without Bayaz getting wind of it? All I'm saying is that Glokta isn't entirely a twisted evil little parody of a man. And show me the part where West dies, I challenge you. Oh, it's heavily hinted at, but even if magic=radiation, I'm not convinced that he was exposed enough to bite it. I don't think Bayaz said that the entire population of Aulcus died even if a lot of them did.

I will find my silver lining you bastards!!!

edit: also it's fun to use spoiler tags so it looks like whatever you're saying is really interesting, especially when it's not.

Torsade de Pointes
Feb 14, 2006

Oh, yeah. I name all the operations that go down in Taipei, even the ones that aren't mine. Operation Latex Turtle, Operation Angry Bees, Operation AAAAAHHHH-YOOOOOOOW! Heh. That was a good one.

Grand Prize Winner posted:

But remember that bit at the end of Kings? The one where Glokta and Luthar discuss making things better for the common man and stuff as best they can without Bayaz getting wind of it? All I'm saying is that Glokta isn't entirely a twisted evil little parody of a man. And show me the part where West dies, I challenge you. Oh, it's heavily hinted at, but even if magic=radiation, I'm not convinced that he was exposed enough to bite it. I don't think Bayaz said that the entire population of Aulcus died even if a lot of them did.

I will find my silver lining you bastards!!!

edit: also it's fun to use spoiler tags so it looks like whatever you're saying is really interesting, especially when it's not.

He's probably just lying to the idiot king and also at the very endHe tortures the Arch Lector for no reason other than his own amusement. You can empathize with him and he's not cartoonishly evil, but don't forget that he tortures and murders people for a living. Actually, not even a living his family is rich he just doesn't want to stay with his mom.

Torsade de Pointes fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Apr 21, 2010

Zasze
Apr 29, 2009
well if he isnt dead hes about a step away and a shattered shell of his former self far worse than even glotka at his lowest.

also byaz owns for all the right wrong reasons

Orange Carebear
Aug 25, 2009

Zasze posted:

well if he isnt dead hes about a step away and a shattered shell of his former self far worse than even glotka at his lowest.

also byaz owns for all the right wrong reasons

I think they even have a little joke about how West is like Sand now. I think based on Sand's reaction and the fact that thousands are dieing from what West has, its pretty clear that if the poison/radiation/whatever doesn't kill West, its still left him a shattered husk of his former self. As far as making plans with Luthar, I took that as just one of the kings advisors telling him what he wants to hear. Byaz has Sand by the short and curlies and hes going to do what he wants. I think he tortures the Arch Lectur 1. to cement Pike as his and 2. because he hates him and, at a very base level, enjoys doing what was done to him. Remember the saying earlier in the books? 'First it is done to us, then we do it to others, then we order others to do it'? Sand completes that three step process at the end and starts Pike on that road.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
That reminds me of another thing that I really liked about The First Law: the cycle and symmetry involved with Pike's fate. Learning that he was the fat merchant from TBI was a huge surprise for me and I found it immensely satisfying.

TShields
Mar 30, 2007

We can rule them like gods! ...Angry gods.
Regardless of anything, its amazing that this guy- a relative newcomer to the fantasy scene- has come up with all he has in such a short period of time, and has done it well enough that all of us are interested in discussing it on the internet rather than use it for its true purpose: looking at people's naughty bits.

Bummey
May 26, 2004

you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata
He hasn't come up with anything really ground breaking. Barbarians of the frozen north (I groaned quite loudly when I saw the words frozen north appear in a description of them), middle eastern analog Gurkish, European analog Styria, wizards and demons...

It's the stories and characters that make it shine, not exactly the world or setting.

And I have another firefox tap open that's looking at naughty bits while I type this.

Orange Carebear
Aug 25, 2009

Bummey posted:

He hasn't come up with anything really ground breaking. Barbarians of the frozen north (I groaned quite loudly when I saw the words frozen north appear in a description of them), middle eastern analog Gurkish, European analog Styria, wizards and demons...

It's the stories and characters that make it shine, not exactly the world or setting.

And I have another firefox tap open that's looking at naughty bits while I type this.

Right. Its not so much about the setting and the universe he has created (in fact, his world is almost Black Company like in its disregard for maps/a living, breathing world), but about the characters he creates and the way he uses them to completely annihilate every standard fantasy cliche. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he purposefully makes the setting (cold northern barbarians, middle eastern desert Gurkish, generic temperate kingdom with knights, etc) familiar to fantasy readers because it makes his destruction of other cliches that much more astounding.

Flatscan
Mar 27, 2001

Outlaw Journalist

Orange Carebear posted:

Right. Its not so much about the setting and the universe he has created (in fact, his world is almost Black Company like in its disregard for maps/a living, breathing world), but about the characters he creates and the way he uses them to completely annihilate every standard fantasy cliche. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he purposefully makes the setting (cold northern barbarians, middle eastern desert Gurkish, generic temperate kingdom with knights, etc) familiar to fantasy readers because it makes his destruction of other cliches that much more astounding.

And because if you focus on "world-building" you end up with the Wheel of loving Time. Sniff sniff, tugg tugg.

Orange Carebear
Aug 25, 2009

Flatscan posted:

And because if you focus on "world-building" you end up with the Wheel of loving Time. Sniff sniff, tugg tugg.

I'm not saying that is a bad thing - far from it. By skipping the world building parts (and really, at this point who needs 3 page descriptions of random towns) it lets him keep the storyline tight and fast moving.

anathenema
Apr 8, 2009
I love Abercrombie's stuff and he's even better in person, but I can definitely see the complaint about his work being too dark.

I accepted it because I loved the characters so much, but there was a distinct sense of unease throughout Best Served Cold in that it felt like everyone was taking the low road not out of a sense of practicality or comfort, as was the case in The First Law, but just out of a desire to be dark.

The whole fact that people do not always make the right decision and do not always act in the best interest of themselves, their goals or the world is what gave rise to the style of dark fantasy that Martin and friends made possible. It almost feels that Abercrombie goes a little too far in certain cases, though; at the end of the day, people do make the right choice once in awhile.

That said, though, he remains one of my favorite authors. His style is outstanding and his characters are more than enough to make up for aspects I might usually not agree with.

Flatscan
Mar 27, 2001

Outlaw Journalist

Orange Carebear posted:

I'm not saying that is a bad thing - far from it. By skipping the world building parts (and really, at this point who needs 3 page descriptions of random towns) it lets him keep the storyline tight and fast moving.

I know, I was agreeing with you.

Bummey
May 26, 2004

you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata

Smashurbanipal posted:

It would be fascinating to read an Abercrombie story that has one of the Eaters being the focus. It would fit in perfectly with his style of presenting a character and getting the reader to empathize with them and then exposing the depravity and fuckedupedness of said character.

Best Served Cold - Shenkt is an eater. :ssh: I was actually pretty taken back when he started to carve up Lucky Nim, but then I remembered that cannibalism is what makes an Eater an Eater, and all made sense. His super kill guy fighting powers are even more dumb and annoying when seen from his perspective, but his personal philosophy is surprisingly kind hearted. You know, aside from all the murdering.

Bummey fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Apr 22, 2010

Smashurbanipal
Sep 12, 2009
ASK ME ABOUT BEING A SHITTY POSTER
^^^^^ He is an important figure in the book, but by no means the protagonist.

Decius
Oct 14, 2005

Ramrod XTreme

anathenema posted:

I accepted it because I loved the characters so much, but there was a distinct sense of unease throughout Best Served Cold in that it felt like everyone was taking the low road not out of a sense of practicality or comfort, as was the case in The First Law, but just out of a desire to be dark.

Don't forget that the ending of BSC is the "happy end", he says he has toyed around with far more depressing stuff early on. Guy has a twisted sense of humor. :D

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Fellwenner
Oct 21, 2005
Don't make me kill you.

Ok, I'm starting Best Served Cold and I like Shivers, but please let me know if Logen makes an appearance. Just a yes or no, please.

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