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Hughmoris posted:While Abercrombie is my favorite author at the moment, I still have a gripe or two with BSC. The biggest one is that it appeared he tried to turn Shivers into The Bloody Nine. I don't have the book on me so I can't pull the passages but there were several glaring bits of dialogue and actions that very closely imitated Nine Fingers. There can be only one. What you should take away from that is that given the right circumstances, all Northmen are crazy fuckers. Personally I think he was more Black Dow than Ninefingers though.
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May 5, 2010 17:11
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Tornhelm posted:What you should take away from that is that given the right circumstances, all Northmen are crazy fuckers. Personally I think he was more Black Dow than Ninefingers though. Notice how in the beginning he was quoting Logen, near the middle and the end he was non-stop quoting Black Dow.
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May 5, 2010 18:03
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SaviourX posted:I'm going to throw in the dissenting opinion here and say that (in the first 120 pages of TBI), his prose was pretty weak, and the plot didn't grab me. That coupled with his 'I don't really read fantasy and I didn't write much before this' spiel already threw me off.
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May 5, 2010 20:48
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Finally finished last night and I loved every minute of it. I swear to God, if we don't find out what the deal is with the loving bank some day, I'm going to poo poo a brick.
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May 6, 2010 11:47
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TShields posted:Finally finished last night and I loved every minute of it. I swear to God, if we don't find out what the deal is with the loving bank some day, I'm going to poo poo a brick. It's owned by Bayaz who uses it as a tool to control the union.
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May 6, 2010 13:40
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Flatscan posted:It's owned by Bayaz who uses it as a tool to control the union. I believe that it's revealed in Glokta's second to last chapter
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May 7, 2010 14:53
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Flatscan posted:It's owned by Bayaz who uses it as a tool to control the union. Which makes a nice setup for the whole Religion vs Capitalism thing. It's going to be interesting to see what happens with this new "neutral" third side - perhaps following Russias route of feudalism into Socialism? It'd be nice to see a world where Trotsky's vision succeeded - even if its only because the other two powers were too focused on each other to view it as a credible threat.
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May 7, 2010 15:19
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drat, you guys must have read these more recently than I did, or my memory is shot to poo poo at 25. I can't remember a lot of this stuff..
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May 7, 2010 18:46
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Say one thing for Hughmoris, say he'll be downtrodden if the Logen Ninefingers does not make an appearance in Heroes. I don't think anyone answered my question earlier in regards to the Bloody Nine. I'm under the opinion that when he turns into a killing machine, he is actually possessed. It seems that the masses think he just goes crazy. Any thoughts? Hughmoris fucked around with this message at 18:40 on May 8, 2010 |
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May 8, 2010 17:39
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Hughmoris posted:Say one thing for Hughmoris, say he'll be downtrodden if the Logen Ninefingers does not make an appearance in Heroes. Well, I read your possession theory before the third book, where we REALLY see the Bloody Nine, so I had it in mind. And while I'm not sure I'd have come up with it myself, I have to say, I prefer it, and hope that's what Abercrombie was going for, or was at least allowing as a possibility. It definitely fits with Logen's rare connection to the spirits, and helps explain some of the Bloody Nine's actions and abilities. So yeah, I like the theory. If we never see Logen again, it's what I'll choose to believe, and if we do see him again, I hope for more evidence for it.
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May 8, 2010 18:49
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Hughmoris posted:Say one thing for Hughmoris, say he'll be downtrodden if the Logen Ninefingers does not make an appearance in Heroes. Possession probably wouldn't be the word I would choose, but yeah it seems possible that the transformation into the B9 is tied to his supernatural side. At the same time though he gains no supernatural ability (preternatural, sure, but not super) and spends the whole series lying to himself about what kind of person he is and his own history, even when it seems like he's being brutally honest he's still spinning or obfuscating somewhat based on Bethod's revelation at the end. Logen has a lot of dark work in his past without even adding any battle madness. Given that it also seems possible that the B9 is the real Logen and everything else in the series is him making a conscious effort.
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May 8, 2010 19:38
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Ballsworthy posted:Possession probably wouldn't be the word I would choose, but yeah it seems possible that the transformation into the B9 is tied to his supernatural side. At the same time though he gains no supernatural ability (preternatural, sure, but not super) and spends the whole series lying to himself about what kind of person he is and his own history, even when it seems like he's being brutally honest he's still spinning or obfuscating somewhat based on Bethod's revelation at the end. Logen has a lot of dark work in his past without even adding any battle madness. Given that it also seems possible that the B9 is the real Logen and everything else in the series is him making a conscious effort. Not really. All the poo poo Bethod says simply describes an ambitious young man who knows he can beat anyone else in single combat. Its fairly easy to see how a rash young man could see unifying all the disparate warring northern clans into a single nation as a noble purpose. By that token offering to duel would save many lives as opposed to just a massive battle where many more lives would be lost. The only truly "evil" thing he did was ordering that town sacked, and he seems to genuinely feel terrible about that and doesn't deny it. Him killing Shivers' brother was probably the B9. Although I also kind of like the idea that B9 is not a separate entity, but the "real" Logen before he decides to try and become a good man. However, his first childhood episode where he kills his friend and doesn't remember why seems to indicate that the B9 was always a result of possession/split personality/some other mental illness.
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May 8, 2010 20:27
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Ballsworthy posted:Possession probably wouldn't be the word I would choose, but yeah it seems possible that the transformation into the B9 is tied to his supernatural side. At the same time though he gains no supernatural ability (preternatural, sure, but not super) and spends the whole series lying to himself about what kind of person he is and his own history, even when it seems like he's being brutally honest he's still spinning or obfuscating somewhat based on Bethod's revelation at the end. Logen has a lot of dark work in his past without even adding any battle madness. Given that it also seems possible that the B9 is the real Logen and everything else in the series is him making a conscious effort. Good point but the thing that sticks out is He never seems to remember the poo poo that he did while he was possessed. For example, when he carved up Crummock's son or when he wrecked the Shanka in the ruins of the old city. One passage describes his eyes as pitch black and fully dialated when he turns. Then there is this passage, which I love: quote:He couldn't lift the old sword any more. There was no strength left. Nothing. The room was growing blurry. Logen might be a black bastard at best but I don't think anything natural can describe what happens to him when he becomes The Bloody Nine.
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May 8, 2010 20:31
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^^ I'd forgotten about that "I'm free of you" line, that's pretty big, but I still think it could go either way.Mr.48 posted:Not really. All the poo poo Bethod says simply describes an ambitious young man who knows he can beat anyone else in single combat. Its fairly easy to see how a rash young man could see unifying all the disparate warring northern clans into a single nation as a noble purpose. By that token offering to duel would save many lives as opposed to just a massive battle where many more lives would be lost. The only truly "evil" thing he did was ordering that town sacked, and he seems to genuinely feel terrible about that and doesn't deny it. Him killing Shivers' brother was probably the B9. You're whitewashing Logen, there's nothing in the text to indicate he was fighting for peace and the Bethod/Logen confrontation makes it very clear he was fighting for pride and bloodlust. "That's not how it was," whispered Logen. But he knew that it had been. He didn't kill Rattleneck's son in battle, he murdered a prisoner and nailed his head to Bethod's standard. Ballsworthy fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 8, 2010 |
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May 8, 2010 22:57
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Ballsworthy posted:^^ I'd forgotten about that "I'm free of you" line, that's pretty big, but I still think it could go either way. I never said he was fighting for peace. Read my post again. Also, we dont know the exact circumstances of the killing of Rattleneck's son.
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May 9, 2010 01:26
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quote:West in "Furious mode" (if you can even call it that) I think I read the chapter where West did this (or at least the page or so) a couple times over. It honestly just stopped me for a second simply because of how West was portrayed. I mean, you saw it coming in a way -- but to actually see it happen? More points to Abercrombie. I finished the trilogy quite a bit ago and I'm pretty sure I might pick it up again this summer. It is honestly one of my favorite books/series and I can't stop suggesting it to everyone.
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May 10, 2010 17:53
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nutnmunch posted:I think I read the chapter where West did this (or at least the page or so) a couple times over. It honestly just stopped me for a second simply because of how West was portrayed. I mean, you saw it coming in a way -- but to actually see it happen? More points to Abercrombie. I had to reread the passage several times when Logen stabbed Tel Duru in the loving throat. I could not comprehend what happened. I did not expect a major* character to go out like that. Hughmoris fucked around with this message at 18:19 on May 10, 2010 |
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May 10, 2010 18:08
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LAoK Spoiler I don't care what anyone says. West is going to make it and commit himself to a life of redemption. What an ending to this series... Why can't Logen and Ferro have murder babies?
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May 10, 2010 19:28
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I just finished the first book and it's pretty obvious during Logen's fight with the practicals that he definitely has two sides, and the bloodlust/berzerker rage is something completely different. The Quote from Hughmoris above is exactly what I'm remembering. I haven't read the other two books yet (just started the 2nd) but it's clear to me that, in the first book alone, Abercrombie was definitely trying to convey a type of possession or supernatural dual-personality.
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May 10, 2010 20:45
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Ballsworthy posted:Possession probably wouldn't be the word I would choose, but yeah it seems possible that the transformation into the B9 is tied to his supernatural side. At the same time though he gains no supernatural ability (preternatural, sure, but not super) I didn't realise Abercrombie had referred to the "cold feeling" as far back as that too, that's incredibly impressive planning/foreshadowing for a first timer. Blimey.
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May 10, 2010 21:00
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Evfedu posted:I'd disagree with this, he literally wrestles Fenris to a standstill. A big strong bloke Logen is, no doubt, but Fenris is a magically imbued demi-human who was (at the point of stalemate) being empowered still further by Caurib's song/magic. I mean, by definition, the strength of the bloody nine is supernatural. Exactly, and since I love that scene so much, here is another one of my favorite passages to back it up: *Do not read if you haven't read the trilogy yet. quote:
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May 10, 2010 21:10
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I just finished the series. Glokta  He had the best chapters in the book and made the series imo.I really liked the moral shades of grey with Bayaz. It's hard to put your finger on who the "bad guy" really is. Is it Bayaz for murdering Juvens? Is it Khalul for wanting revenge for the act but breaking the second law in the process? The whole story turns upside down with the Gurkish army offering such generous terms outside the gates of Adua, and paints the Hundred Words into an almost righteous band of good guys. You can't even say Sult was downright evil and malevolent as he was working hard to free the Union of Bayaz's influence. I'm still absorbing everything, but these books were badass. Gonna start Best Served Cold now.
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May 11, 2010 17:13
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^ bayaz rant idk man its pretty clear that bayaz is the true bad guy hes not cackling evil bad but if there was a villain in my opinion its defiantly bayaz.You can kinda piece together how Khalul broke the second law so he could fight bayaz on more even ground. if you look at them from a who has what point of view, bayaz uses the makers house as a one stop shop for crazy poo poo to parry and strike at Khalul. he also built a nation around the makers house to defend it and all that stuff in the north with bethod was probably bayaz attempting to expand the union. the way of all the other students of juvens and the makers daughter act towards him paint him pretty negatively. he also employs eaters of his own so its not like he can say hes abiding by the laws himself.
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May 11, 2010 17:54
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Just got the first book and I'm really loving it so far. I'm about 300 pages in, and he writes great dialogue and characters. I'm a sucker for deep, layered worldbuilding, and that's my only gripe with this series so far. The world is barely described in a lot of cases, so it feels like a bunch of disconnected personalities floating around in a world I can't really imagine other than fairly loose descriptions like "Argiont: castle." Does this get a bit better as the series goes on? Other than that, loving it. I don't have easy access to the last two books in the series, so I'm trying to stretch this one, but goddamn if I don't want to rip through it in one night.
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May 11, 2010 18:13
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A Nice Boy posted:I'm a sucker for deep, layered worldbuilding, and that's my only gripe with this series so far. The world is barely described in a lot of cases, so it feels like a bunch of disconnected personalities floating around in a world I can't really imagine other than fairly loose descriptions like "Argiont: castle." Does this get a bit better as the series goes on? Nope. Read some China Mieville if you want 2000 word descriptions of every dirty alley the main character walks past.
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May 11, 2010 22:15
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Bummey posted:Nope. Nah, not that descriptive. Anyway, good worldbuilding isn't about describing every single mundane object in the environment to the point where you want to blow your brains out.
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May 11, 2010 22:20
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A Nice Boy posted:Nah, not that descriptive. Anyway, good worldbuilding isn't about describing every single mundane object in the environment to the point where you want to blow your brains out. In the second book the locations the characters visit are described in much more detail. Same deal with the third. The focus in these books is without a doubt on the characters more than anything else, though.
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May 11, 2010 23:27
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nutnmunch posted:In the second book the locations the characters visit are described in much more detail. Same deal with the third. The focus in these books is without a doubt on the characters more than anything else, though. I love the damned characters so far. Logen describing crapping on a medieval toilet was hilarious, "the wind cooling your fruits."
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May 11, 2010 23:58
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Ya I think there is a lot of evidence that Logen does not so much transform into the Bloody Nine as he is taken over by some kind of entity known as the Blood Nine. When you factor in the language Abercrombie uses to describe his transformation with Logen's rare ability to interact with the spirit world (even Bayaz can't do it), it seems like the theory that makes the most sense. As far as Bayaz being the true evil villain, I think the story by the end reveals him to be just any bastard who uses people for his own gain. Hes no different than most of the other characters. I'm not sure I would go so far as to say he is the 'real' villain, since the main theme of the series is more or less a shades of grey idea. Khalul is not made better or worse by our revelations about Bayaz (remember that the eaters/Hundred Words reveal that they hate themselves and live in agony of their crimes), hes just no different.
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May 12, 2010 07:07
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A Nice Boy posted:I'm a sucker for deep, layered worldbuilding, and that's my only gripe with this series so far. The world is barely described in a lot of cases, so it feels like a bunch of disconnected personalities floating around in a world I can't really imagine other than fairly loose descriptions like "Argiont: castle." Does this get a bit better as the series goes on? It's very light on the world building. For me that was actually a refreshing change (given that the last fanatasy books I read where the Malazan books, not nescessarily a bad thing, but nice to have some respite). However, there is some and there is also more going on behind the scenes in terms of a big picture meta-narrative of kinds. This is more apparent when you read both the trilogy and the standlone (Best Served Cold) that follows. You only really get glimpses behind the curtain as it where, but it's done pretty well. It feels like the world has been built, but we only get to see the bits of it that the main characters see. as such most exposition beyond the here and now tends to be what is related to them by others. This adds a further level of obfuscation, that plays a part in the plot, as who the hell knows whether or not those relating it are reliable? Gravy Jones fucked around with this message at 14:51 on May 12, 2010 |
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May 12, 2010 14:49
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cheese posted:(remember that the eaters/Hundred Words reveal that they hate themselves and live in agony of their crimes)[/spoiler] I agree with most of that but this one little quibble. Sure, some are all angsty, but others are like, "gently caress yeah! I eat human flesh and therefore have superpowers!" There's one thing about the Eaters, though. If cannibalism gives you super-powers/magical abilities and the people in this world are a bunch of assholes, then what's stopping the whole planet from devolving into a cannibalistic nightmare? Either there's some special, Khalul's-boyz-only process that gives you super-mega-eater abilities or Bayaz isn't quite as outright evil as he seems. At least he isn't using Eaters en masse.
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May 13, 2010 04:28
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I agree with most of that but this one little quibble. Sure, some are all angsty, but others are like, "gently caress yeah! I eat human flesh and therefore have superpowers!" I think its insinuated that you can use the eating of human flesh to gain powers, but its more of a tool that you need to know how to use rather than 'Joe the Baker eats his customer and suddenly is awesome at everything'.
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May 13, 2010 05:30
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Joshtafari posted:That said, the next two books (and Best Served Cold) deliver on everything you could want. Gonna go ahead and disagree with that. Don't get me wrong, the trilogy was awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed it...BSC was such a let down though. JA seemed to follow the same structure for each section of the book (as pointed out earlier in the thread) and as the plot wore on you could pretty much guess who would be alive by the end of it. I'm really hoping his next one shakes things up a bit because BSC was really anti-climatic.
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May 13, 2010 10:00
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Johnbo posted:Gonna go ahead and disagree with that. Don't get me wrong, the trilogy was awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed it...BSC was such a let down though. JA seemed to follow the same structure for each section of the book (as pointed out earlier in the thread) and as the plot wore on you could pretty much guess who would be alive by the end of it. I'm really hoping his next one shakes things up a bit because BSC was really anti-climatic. Now I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with that. I know what you're implying, but that was kinda dropped after the first two "jobs", beyond that it became kinda crazy, seemed like everyone was only surviving by the skin of their teeth. No way in hell I could have predicted who would survive that book by the middle. The way some people talk about it I feel like we read different books. I thought it was amazing, it in every way lived up to my expectations post-trilogy.
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May 13, 2010 14:27
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cheese posted:I think its insinuated that you can use the eating of human flesh to gain powers, but its more of a tool that you need to know how to use rather than 'Joe the Baker eats his customer and suddenly is awesome at everything'. Im guessing its just the sheer amount, i mean the hundred words were eating entire villages down in gurkish territory it seemed
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May 13, 2010 20:23
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I agree with most of that but this one little quibble. Sure, some are all angsty, but others are like, "gently caress yeah! I eat human flesh and therefore have superpowers!" I was under the impression that cannibalism is something that can enhance your already existing magical powers, not something that would just give you superpowers out of nowhere.
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May 13, 2010 20:29
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The publication date for The Heroes has been shifted.quote:So it is with great regret I have to inform you that, following a meeting with my editor and various whip-and-sword-wielding figures at Orion made from fire and shadow, we have decided, reluctantly, that we have to move the publication date of The Heroes. Yeah, a fantasy author is expecting to publish ahead of schedule, something must be deeply wrong with the world. Out end of January for those of us in the UK with any luck. http://www.joeabercrombie.com/news/
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May 14, 2010 22:54
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Jekub posted:The publication date for The Heroes has been shifted. Son of a bitch. He's like the anti-George RR Martin.
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May 15, 2010 01:51
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FINISH THE BOOK, JOE! oh, wait I had the same thought the other day. This guy is like nonfat Gurm.
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May 16, 2010 07:10
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I just finished Best Served Cold and I kinda liked it. It was good pulp, comic violence. I have two huge problems with it, though. It is way too long for the way it is paced. The book peaks at the third kill (which is brilliantly done) and then sort of meanders for huge chunks of the rest of the book. It would have been much better overall if it was just 3-5 dudes to kill. Secondly, I didn't care at all for Monza or her revenge. She's written too straight and earnest to be amusing like the rest of her merry band of fuckups. I liked how it is gradually revealed that Benna was a giant douchebag who basically ruined Monza but that didn't help me not caring about the plot any. Also I didn't read the other books because I did not want to get involved in a trilogy. This wasn't a problem for 95% of the book, but... I really hope Shenkt and Vitari are in the main series because they feel almost completely pointless in BSC with no foreknowledge and could have been cut almost entirely without incident.
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May 17, 2010 16:23
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