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There's a fantastic pay-off for the 'say one thing for Logen Ninefingers' repetition, later in the trilogy. It made me smile like a lunatic when I first read it.
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Jun 14, 2011 18:49
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In Last Argument of Kings: At the council of leaders after the battle of Adua, when Logen has come to terms with what he is. "Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers. Say he's a oval office." Succinct and sums up Logen's character, basically.
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Jun 14, 2011 19:36
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A Nice Boy posted:I think he got stronger as he went. The Last Argument of Kings is by far the best book in that trilogy, I loved Best Served Cold, and I think in some ways The Heroes was almost the best thing he's written so far. I'd agree with this. Best Served Cold is better-written but a bit of a thematic retread of the trilogy, which brings it down a tiny bit. The Heroes is new thematic ground and the best thing Abercrombie has yet written. As Alex Preston writes here from the perspective of someone who doesn't normally read fantasy books: quote:Now we come to Abercrombie’s novel. I must be careful here not to be patronising, but it’s rather wonderful. I don’t mean to sound surprised. I had been told that it was a fine example of the genre, that he was doing interesting things. But The Heroes [Purchase] is magnificent. My mother used to drat her holiday reading with “War and Peace it ain’t” but I couldn’t help think of Tolstoy as I read Abercrombie. The skilful intercutting of battle scenes with the politicking that sits behind them, the exploration of war — not only what happens but why it happens, the way we manage to hold a vast array of characters in our head and feel something for all of them. It’s a lie that you need the character cheat-sheet at the beginning of War and Peace. If you’re reading the novel correctly, you know those characters better than you know your own family. I found the same with The Heroes.
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Jun 16, 2011 10:28
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It is pretty definitely new ground for Abercrombie, yes. Your reductionist approach to pointing out similarities ignores the numerous differences, particularly in the new characters who are not the usual active participants in great things. He scales the war down to the micro level by focusing on a single battle (and the lead-up and aftermath), and explores the impact of the battle and the war in general in a way that he hasn't done before. It's a very broad examination of the impact and effect of war - mental, physical, societal. And yes, it's done in a fantasy world, but this doesn't lessen the impact of it any more than the sci-fi trappings of Slaughterhouse 5 lessen its impact, to pick another anti-war example. I also take issue with your comment on the fight scenes, and how Abercrombie's portrayal of them as exciting or whatever robs them of being able to comment on the futility of war. For one thing, I don't think the majority of the fighting in The Heroes is portrayed as 'cool'. When Gorst is involved, he takes savage and repulsive pleasure in the destruction he wreaks, but the other characters don't approach this at all. Craw's approach to violence and fighting is of tired resignation, Calder shies away from it, Beck's experience is downright traumatic and it isn't portrayed as 'cool' at all. The 'Casualties' chapter was as affecting a piece of war writing as I've ever read, up there with Len Deighton's 'Bomber' in its depiction of the horrible, destructive violence of war. There is adrenaline and excitement in it, but always tempered by horror. This is not contradictory or counter-productive at all; most war memoirs I've read have made a point of showing that soldiers often feel excitement and a predatory thrill in battle, as often as they feel abject terror and horror. It doesn't harm the anti-war credentials of the book to highlight this sort of thing; it would be a markedly more two-dimensional portrayal of war if it did not explore the "positive" emotions involved in combat. Even one of the most downright pacifistic anti-war books I've read recently, A Long Long Way by Sebastian Barry, described the adrenaline and thrill of combat even though the protagonist literally wets himself every time a shot is fired. Another of the most powerfully anti-war books I've read, Piece Of Cake by Derek Robinson (which is highly recommended), contains very detailed depictions of aerial combat in WW2. This is not 'having cake and eating it'. Again, on it being a fantasy book, I don't think that harms its message at all. I'm not a big reader of fantasy; Abercrombie and Martin are the only 'serious' fantasy authors that I like (not counting Pratchett here) and I like Martin more for his plots and characters than the quality of his writing, which is competent and functional but nothing particularly special. Certainly all the other war-focused books with a strongly anti-war message that I've read have been either historical fiction or personal memoirs, but I don't think this harms The Heroes at all.
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Jun 16, 2011 14:52
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fermun posted:I took it as it not serving any point for the plot was the entire point of the scene, hammering in the pointlessness of it all by having these two legendary fighters face off and absolutely nothing being solved by it. The book's themes condensed down to one scene. This is spot-on. The 'archetypical fantasy fight' serves no purpose and achieves nothing, except more death. It doesn't change anything meaningful.
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Jun 16, 2011 19:14
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It's certainly not new in literature as a whole, but it's one of those themes that I never tire of seeing rehashed. Particularly because there are so many books (not just in fantasy) which outright glorify war instead, all cashing in on the success of Cornwell's Sharpe books and all called JACK STEEL: MAN OF HONOUR or similar. And as Hemingway put it: quote:War is the best subject of all. It groups the maximum of material and speeds up the action and brings out all sorts of stuff that normally you have to wait a lifetime to get. John Charity Spring fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jun 18, 2011 |
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Jun 18, 2011 15:42
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That's an excellent essay. Thanks for sharing it. I think popular literature about war has certainly moved on from the 19th century days cited by that essay (Henty and his ilk) but there still exists an awful lot of popular culture that glorifies it, and undoubtedly this has its effect.
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Jun 18, 2011 19:43
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The Gurkish are normal humans, just darker-skinned than in the Union. Also 'Gurkish' covers loads of nationalities and ethnicities within that 'darker-skinned' category, since it's a large empire. Broadly Middle-Eastern, I guess. The shanka... I think they've got fur? And snouts maybe? I don't think they're ever described in detail.
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Jun 22, 2011 08:49
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dyehead posted:If the Gurkish are Egyptians, then what're Collem and Ardee West? Hispanic? I thought the Gurkish would be considerably darker, similar in skin color to Yulwei. I'm gonna go with African, because, yeah, I dunno. The Wests are just Europeans whose skin isn't as pale because they've actually spent their lives out and about doing things. They're commoners.
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Jun 23, 2011 08:23
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Yulwei is surely deader than a doornail.
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Aug 30, 2011 23:36
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Me too! I was heartbroken. Fell for it hook, line and sinker. And what Bummey says about characters is spot on.
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Sep 20, 2011 10:02
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Yeah, start off with The Blade Itself. It begins the trilogy (which is essentially a complete story) and the two following books, although 'standalone', deal with some returning characters and plotpoints. It's certainly possible to read the standalones only, but you'd miss out on some stuff.
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Sep 23, 2011 11:37
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Yeah, not because you don't enjoy the trilogy - that's subjective taste and all - but that you'd read so much stuff you don't enjoy to get to the later books (which you'd probably assume you still wouldn't enjoy).
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Sep 27, 2011 16:15
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Okay, your reasons for reading books you don't enjoy are a lot more reasonable when you explain them! And you're definitely right about reading a diverse selection of books. I get the impression a lot of authors in sci-fi and fantasy don't venture outside those genres in their own reading. Hell, I get that impression about a lot of readers, too.
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Sep 30, 2011 13:09
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The Fall of the Master Maker trilogy is very overtly a swipe at Tolkienesque fantasy and the descriptions of them by the characters work perfectly as negative descriptions of Lord of the Rings itself. They're mentioned in both The Blade Itself and Last Argument of Kings, I think - Ardee is reading them at one point.
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Nov 23, 2011 12:27
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Trevefresh2 posted:Anyone know what the deal is with the prologue put at the very end of the heroes book in the extras section? Is that from his next book? If you mean the short story with Bremer dan Gorst, then it was included with several editions of The Heroes originally (I have it in my copy from Waterstones, but it was probably in other editions too). It's not from anything, it's just a little extra.
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Dec 21, 2011 00:40
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Goddammit do I have to buy the Kindle version or something? I bought the UK hardcover because I liked the cover better and I miss out? You'd figure he'd give the perfidious Britons the short story. Mine was in the UK hardcover version from Waterstones. It's a little story that shows what happens to Bremer (and those around him) just before the beginning of The Heroes, detailing events that are only hinted at or briefly recounted at the start of the book.
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Dec 21, 2011 12:57
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The one I got at the end of The Heroes (which was set before the beginning of the book, chronologically) is called Yesterday, Near A Village Called Barden.
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Dec 21, 2011 22:08
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Interesting post from Abercrombie over at the Westeros forums, concerning female characters, the dangers of slipping into sexist writing, and one scene in particular late in Last Argument of Kings. It's a bit of a long read but very worthwhile.
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Jan 15, 2012 15:38
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From what I remember, Tolomei is the way she is because of how Bayaz treated her. He seduced her then threw her off the top of the tower and then lied about it - she's nurtured a hatred for him after his betrayal for thousands of years. She's not been driven insane by demons, but more just by the millennia of suffering and hate. And is using demons to get her revenge rather than being prompted by them to pursue her revenge.
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Jan 25, 2012 21:22
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flamingmuse posted:Way, way late to the party here, and I doubt the target audience I'm aiming at will ever see this but here we go. I've been looking for a good fantasy series for ages, something with the tropes without being mired in them and this is loving amazing so far. I'm nearly done with the first book and I'm already trying not to peak ahead to the second. If you've ever looked for an introduction to the genre and aren't sure where to start: get on it. Yeah, steer clear of the thread for the most part until you've at least read the trilogy - we've generally been pretty good at keeping to spoiler-tagged discussion but things have lapsed recently! The general sci-fi/fantasy thread may be a better place to make your recommendation to others.
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Feb 6, 2012 11:05
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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3345499
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Feb 6, 2012 15:23
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I really hope it's not Logen and I can't see any possible reason for it to be Logen. Abercrombie has more sense than that. 1. Logen is a complete irrelevance outside of the North. 2. The whole point of Logen's character development is that he tries to escape his past by leaving the North, but eventually he has to return and he hasn't managed to escape his past at all. He comes to terms with what a terrible poo poo of a man he is and is quite prepared to make the rest of his life as that terrible poo poo of a man in the North, until Black Dow forces him to jump into a river again. 3. There is no reason for Logen to try to be a better man again by leaving the North (and certainly not becoming someone's stepfather). He tried that and it didn't work out for him at all. That attempt is over. 4. The whole 'man with a bloody past' thing is a well-used Western archetype, and while it's also well-trodden ground in Abercrombie's books so far and there's potential for him to tire it out completely with this, I really don't think Logen has anything to do with it. I had some other reasons for why it really isn't him but gently caress. It's not Logen. I'll be hugely disappointed if it is.
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Feb 13, 2012 19:52
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Zqxm posted:This directly implies that it is Logen, does it not? I do not think any of the other characters fit that description. Cosca. Who is already confirmed as being in it.
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Feb 14, 2012 14:58
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Especially since Glokta and Jezal (Jezal especially) are not portrayed as badass. Suffice to say that there is a lot more to the books.
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Feb 29, 2012 17:46
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Evfedu posted:I don't think anyone has claimed that Abercrombie is James Joyce'in it up and all literature'in' and the like. Just, that if you're looking for the best Swords and Sorcery BS that's out there, The First Law is where you should go. I don't think the third act is particularly bloated but I do think that Ferro is a very weak character and that the whole 'pinks' thing is forced and awkward. And the portrayal of the lesbian princess is pretty bad, yeah - Abercrombie himself has admitted that. The books definitely have flaws but I don't think 'the characters are all violent badasses' is a valid criticism.
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Mar 1, 2012 00:17
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If that's true then I'll grudgingly eat my words, but I really did think that story was better off left alone and done.
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Mar 20, 2012 11:01
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That looks like it'd be the US cover. It's the same style as the US cover of The Heroes, and it quotes the Wall Street Journal.
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Apr 5, 2012 20:35
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Clinton1011 posted:Yea its the one from Orbit so that might be the case, Wouldn't the UK cover be released first though since it comes out in the UK a bit before the US? There's probably more... artistry going into the UK cover, if it's going to be the same style as BSC and The Heroes. Joe has confirmed that that's just the US cover on his blog, with the UK covers still to come.
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Apr 14, 2012 11:00
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It's been ages since I read it now, but wasn't there some kind of flashback scene which either indicated or implied that Monza and her brother shared quarters? I might have dreamt this.
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May 31, 2012 23:23
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The circle of the world without Bayaz and Khalul would probably find the usual banal reasons of nationalism and religion and imperialism to keep on slaughtering each other. I think it's a mistake to look for a happy ending resolution to the big picture plot in Abercrombie's books (much as grand-scale suffering continued after World War 2 and continues to this day).
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Jun 12, 2012 23:32
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Your Gay Uncle posted:At the end of the Siege of Adua he admits to an Eater that he has broken all the laws Juvens set forth, and I think he also tells Ferro at some after she goes demon crazy that he has broken the second law a time or two. Shenkt, one of his disciples, is an Eater, Yoru Sulfur, his current apprentice, has many Eater-esque qualities, and in Bayaz's speech to Calder at the end of The Heroes it is implied he is eating a human steak. He aslo eats part of Black Dow for dessert, if I remember correctly. I re-read The Heroes recently and both times I've read it, that scene at the end of the book didn't give me a cannibalism vibe at all (I was specifically looking out for it the second time, too). It seemed calculated to unsettle Calder, but that's all. I think Bayaz has no problem in putting eaters to use for his own ends, but I don't think he actually does it himself.
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Jun 16, 2012 11:57
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Well look what we have here. The nearly-final UK cover for Red Country. Even fuller version here. And the accompanying blog post.
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Jul 11, 2012 08:42
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Mister Macys posted:Yeah, I just reached the part where the First of the Magi quote:his apprentice quote:and the rogue quote:have come to the city quote:that the soldier quote:and the inquisitor work in. quote:Not sure what's going on with the wizard quote:and the woman quote:in the far south yet, though. Hopefully that helps! You really are in for a good time with the rest of it.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:59
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It's intentionally vague but the scene doesn't really support the idea that Bayaz is eating human flesh. He's eating his dinner next to a mass grave, which is unsettling enough in the first place - the 'dessert' comment is implying that for 'dessert' he's going to have Calder killed, which is what Calder thinks is about to happen when he finds himself staring down at the (intact) corpse of Black Dow in the pit and is convinced that he's about to be executed to join Black Dow. Bayaz has no problem using Eaters but I don't think there's any evidence that he's an Eater himself. He's certainly never displayed any of the usual hallmarks of it.
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Aug 30, 2012 19:21
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The UK tour dates have been announced and I think I'm going to have to go to Glasgow or Edinburgh to get Red Country signed like I did The Heroes. Which will mean, of course, putting off reading the book for a week or so, but I'll live.
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Sep 10, 2012 20:18
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Pigskin posted:The version from the bookdepository is listed at 464 pages, the version from Amazon (U.S.)is listed at 480 pages. Anybody know or have an idea why there is a 16 page difference? Since it's from a different publisher then it's probably just a question of font size and typesetting.
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Sep 21, 2012 12:54
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Finished it. It's bleak and horrible and violent as expected, and strangely uplifting at times. Sometimes it's like a fantasy Blood Meridian, sometimes Unforgiven, reminiscent of Custer's campaigns and the like. Some nice backgrounded commentary on industrialisation and colonialism, and some very foregrounded commentary on savagery and civilisation. Loved it, overall. The various climaxes are apocalyptic and satisfying. Abercrombie's craft as a writer continues to improve. I couldn't help smiling when 'Legate Sarmis' showed up - I figured it out immediately, remembering the suits of Imperial armour that were in the Church of Dice, but it was still great.
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Oct 20, 2012 13:18
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I wouldn't say there's much common ground at all.
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Oct 24, 2012 14:43
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I agree about the surfeit of minor POVs that could have been cut - they mostly just get in the way of the main POVs, and don't seem to have much justification for their inclusion either. There's some good stuff in the fellowship POVs, but the good stuff could mostly have been kept in without introducing new POV segments.
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Nov 24, 2012 11:36
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