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I finished Red Country about a two weeks ago and while I've thoroughly enjoyed all of Abercrombie's work this is the first of his novels that I found truly amazing. It was so good it made me want to revisit all the earlier books so as to really delve into the world he creates. Doing this brought a plot related question to my mind to which I can't find the answer. Why did Logen and his crew fall out with Bethod before the first book?
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Feb 12, 2013 19:17
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Thank you for the clarification, though I actually think I knew all that. For some reason i got it in my head that there was a specific incident that led to Bethod turning on Logen and throwing him and his crew in prison Still very grateful for having that cleared up.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:01
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I was under the impression that his familial years were during/ near the end of the Bethod years.
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Feb 13, 2013 12:11
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Blind Melon posted:I think Logen and his family came before his working for Bethod. If I remember right the whole reason he became Bethod's champion was to win support so his clan didn't get wiped out by the Shanka. Yes but he says it was at the insistence of his father that he set out from his village in search of help for fighting the Shanka. The idea that his father told him to do it made me think he was still young like 17 but I suppose there is no reason that has to be true.
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Feb 14, 2013 08:38
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I've been a big Abercrombie fan for a while and recently finished re-reading all of the books except for Red Country. I came to appreciate Best Served Cold more on the 2nd read through but otherwise my opinions haven't changed much. I think with each subsequent work Joe has become a better writer and has thus written better stories. He was clearly a bit directionless for parts of The Blade Itself and even within that one book alone the beginning speaks nothing of the quality of the ending. Red Country has been his best to date though I'm sure that is at least in part due to my fondness for the western genre. More than that is how impressively he distinguishes every character in voice and demeanor. Even the most insignificant characters have a fully formed persona about them. This is especially apparent in Cosca's band of mercenaries with Jubair being my favorite example of it. I'm sure this has all been discussed at great length before but I felt I should contribute considering how I enjoy reading the posts in this thread. Especially considering how lovely the first law wiki is, which if you haven't been is bad. E: I was also wondering if someone could make a reading suggestion for me as I just finished a book and need an audiobook for an upcoming roadtrip. Non-fantasy is fine and before anyone says anything I tried it but just couldn't do the Malazan series. The Puppy Bowl fucked around with this message at 14:13 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 14:09
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So you know, the beginning of The Blade Itself is easily the worst thing he's ever written. I would recommend jumping into the Heroes and Red Country first if reading the other books didn't make them better than excellent.
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May 17, 2013 00:19
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^^^Agree entirely. Terez as a lesbian was sort of a lame way to handle her disinterest in Jezal which could have easily been done through jingoism, her frigidity, or easiest of all simple disinterest in Jezal. Yes, Terez was a static character but she didn't have enough to contribute to the on-going storylines to be otherwise. If the full range of humanity was expressed in each character then the book would be a chaotic jumble 50,000 pages in length. Lemon Curdistan posted:It's a characterisation issue, yes. The fact that the characterisation issue in question happens to be using a lesbian woman's rape as a plot device is symptomatic of a culture that systemically allows this type of thing. You do realize that no actual people were raped right? The First Law series builds a world of brutality where death and heinous acts are somewhat commonplace. Is it good that people are tortured? Is it good that people are raped? Is it good the Nation's wage war for small reasons? No but this is a world in which these things occur to create an interesting story and explore the effects of such violence on human nature. If it upsets you that violent things happen in a violent book then perhaps this just isn't a subject matter for you.
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May 27, 2013 05:50
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Discarder? Admittedly she didn't get the proper ending that would be most pleasing but the last we see of her she has her mind demons under control and his on her way to rip a whole nation a few too many assholes. I expect her actions, if not the character herself will factor in significantly to the next series.
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Jun 3, 2013 07:48
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He seems to view everyone who isn't a magus as sub-human. While he seems to view the other Magi as fully formed people he is still uniquely self centered and has mostly contempt for the lot of them, and nothing approaching love even for those most loyal, like the man who died to trap his monstrous ex-girlfriend away from the world. Everyone out side of the circle of Magi are just animals to him. Sheep to be herded, dogs to be commanded, and beasts to be put down. It makes him evil as poo poo but seems like the kind of psychology that immortals( or the extremely long lived) would have toward the common man. Basically, dude's an evil rear end in a top hat.
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Jun 3, 2013 21:00
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Me too. I always had so many questions about what happened during that period of Logen's life. The character is viewed from so many different angles depending on his surroundings so I think delving into his past could actually paint us a better picture of the sort of person Logen is at his core. I know many people just thinks he is a straight evil but to me he seemed like a disturbed man who was defined by his brutal circumstance as much as his own inner-workings. The shift in the character when he arrives north in Last Argument of Kings, believing he must keep up appearances if he wants to keep is head, was more revealing to me then the revelation at the end of the first book of "THE BLOODY NINE".
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Jun 4, 2013 20:35
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Run through by Harding Grim. His death was the only one that truly affected me emotionally. I know it is a grimdark world where a brutal death is the norm but damned if I wasn't routing for Harding to find a better end.
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Jun 25, 2013 00:06
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DarkCrawler posted:Me too, especially when in Heroes he said how he could have been a carpenter(?) and so on. Potter He made pots and he seemed damned proud of that fact. Dow had always seemed kind of young Ian McShane mixed with a pointy nosed troll. I don't know how it got stuck in my head but Logen Ninefingers looks exactly like this:  but with more scars. The Puppy Bowl fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jun 29, 2013 |
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Jun 29, 2013 07:10
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Yes and no, because I agree to a certain extent with the thrust of your argument, which is essentially that much 'adult' fantasy isn't really adult. However, there are adult themes in fiction that sort of preclude a young adult readership. And I don't mean moralistic 'adult' themes like sex and violence though I would say that love is an adult theme insofar as an understanding of the limitations of love is a different between an adult and a young adult, which is why a constant theme in teen books is love conquers all and everything will be all right in the end and whatnot. Very well put. The major difference does seem to be in how the audience is treated to less depth in a young adult(or any of the work you mentioned above) book, with a heavier focus on plot progression as opposed to any message or exploration of the human condition. If that's the case I'd probably be plenty happy with a philosophically watered down action yarn by Abercrombie.
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Jul 22, 2013 12:19
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oneof27 posted:For everything he's done, I still don't think of him as a villain, just very goal oriented. But his goal is gently caress you, get mine with a healthy portion of genocide. That kinda seems like a badie.
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Jul 31, 2013 04:41
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Its like life except somehow worse.
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Aug 1, 2013 20:12
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Yeah but even in that moment it initially seemed like he was characterizing him as a down to earth wizard of the people instead of your ivory tower all powerful academics. Its great the way that one can look back on the same scenes and get an an entirely different meaning from them on the read through.
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Aug 1, 2013 21:14
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Giodo! posted:Presumably she killed one of the Winds, given what Ishri says in Heroes. What did she say that referred to Fero? I missed it on my first read through.
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Aug 20, 2013 07:27
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Giodo! posted:Sorry, it was BSC. At the end she leaves with "I have to go. My brother was killed by a woman seeking vengeance." I guess I just assumed this was a reference to Monza, but that actually wouldn't make any sense. Seems my brain can only handle one vengeful she-beast at a time.
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Aug 20, 2013 23:16
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Rhymenoserous posted:Meanwhile Wirrun of Bligh my favorite character to be introduced in a book got killed off, honestly I could follow that mad fucker around all day and just listen to him talk and threaten. Wirrun discussing his cheese trap is easily my favorite moment from Abercrombie's whole works.
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Aug 29, 2013 17:21
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A legendary Red Beck at age forty fighting his first duel after not taking a life since The Heroes would make a cool short story.
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Aug 29, 2013 22:24
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I'm actually really hopeful about Joe's expansion into YA. Nothing would be cooler than having him invert the typical Bildungsroman of a young hero by turning him into a complicated despot hated by the people. There's so much to do with that idea.
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Sep 12, 2013 05:57
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I'm firmly in the Red Country camp. Honestly I've liked each subsequent book better than the last with the exception of Best Served Cold.
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Jan 17, 2014 23:48
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I really like Joe Abercrombie but that is a dumb argument. Twilight is very well liked. Popularity does indicate high quality.
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Jan 27, 2014 07:00
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I figured that was because of the similarities they had taken on made it very easy for them to empathize with one another. So much violence, particularly in Abercrombie's world, stems from the characters ignorance of one another. Hell, the Gurkish and Union really had no reason to fight other than the feud between their respective manipulators. Shivers and Logen both spent a portion of their lives as the boogieman Northen mothers told their kids about. Its hard to really hate someone once you understand their perspective. I thought that non fight was a master touch for ending such a bloody story.
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Jan 30, 2014 08:51
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Because no character in a fantasy novel has survived a potentially mortal wound before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfelqZpapZA
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Jan 31, 2014 03:45
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Alcoholism really is an apt metaphor. Almost to the point that I'd wonder if it was an intentional comparison. Joe does blog an awful lot about whiskey 
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Feb 4, 2014 16:52
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Just wanted to give my two cents on The Shattered Sea series. If you;re avoiding them because of the YA designation, don't. But for slightly more predictable story arcs and a little less cursing it's the Same Abercrombie you've grown to expect. I'd say that Half a Prince was the worse of the two but that's mainly because it was so much shorter so it felt like chunk Yarvi's character arc suffered for it. Particularly I felt like more time should have been spent on the shipwrecked group traveling home to make Yarvi's growth into a man and bond with those characters seem less sudden. Probably not as philosophically engaging as his First Law books but what they lack in sophistication the Half a X books more than make up for in worthwhile characters and general fun.
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Apr 29, 2015 18:03
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Agreed. There is too much plot potential wrapped up in Ferro to never revisit her especially after how effectively he has reincorporated previous characters into his work before. I'm definitely of the sort that thinks Abercrombie's best book is always the last one he wrote ( excluding Half a _____ series being YA and all). Red Country was so good y'all.
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Feb 27, 2016 13:56
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All of you are equally mad. Each Abercrombie book in the first law series is better than the last. The Heroes might actually be better than Red Country but the setting of RC is so good that I chose to overlook this fact. Temple is a great character though his catchphrase of "Oh god" needed a little work.
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Sep 16, 2019 20:30
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Yup. https://www.audible.com/pd/A-Little...p_c1_lProduct_1
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Sep 19, 2019 22:05
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Uh-oh. Guess I'm done with the thread till I finish my reread and actually get to the new book. Fairwell fellow travelers.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:35
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My recollection is that Savine faced that fact she actually could have steered Leo away from this power grab in a late book POV. It was her ambition that made her blind to other paths until well after it was too late, and then only after defeat was certain.
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Oct 31, 2020 02:23
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:My hunch is we'll see the effects in later books. May is my bet for a POV of her own in a later book or short story along with Vic and Glaward. I think the only options for Vic are never seen again or blink and you'll miss it cameo in a future story. Anything else I worry might compromise her excellent story arc. I think this trilogy has flaws, particularly certain moments being too predictableRikke's allies returning being the most obvious example. Still, it was quite good. That predictably seems exacerbated by the fact we're all well familiar with the way Abercrombie writes and the kinds of ideas he's trying to convey at this point in his career. Narrative could have used some work but the writing is vastly improved from The Blade Itself trilogy. I think these books will seem a lot better in future rereads when the element of surprise doesn't seem as important.
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Sep 30, 2021 07:09
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No can read good.
The Puppy Bowl fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Oct 8, 2021 |
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Oct 8, 2021 01:42
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I enjoyed BSC a lot more on a later reread. Heroes and Red Country I loved straight away. Not sure if you're an audiobook person but if so give them a try. Steven Pacey does phenomenal work in The Heroes.
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Oct 8, 2021 04:44
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Honestly the quality of the of the standalones sort of speaks to the problems of the trilogy. A lot of his payoffs would have worked a lot better if the set up had only been one book long. Orso being hanged and Zuri being an eater come to mind. The challenge is for those kind of set ups you need to drop hints throughout or it feels out of nowhere but with the hints the events felt obvious and inevitable. I don't think Shivers' betrayal of Black Dow would have played as well if it had been stretched out and overly hinted at.
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Oct 8, 2021 19:41
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You mean the Breaker that played party to the plan to blow up a bunch of innocent people for an assassination plot? That guy? If you see arguments for centrism in this trilogy I think you're adding too much of your own biases to the text.
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Oct 11, 2021 22:36
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I'd hope so. Severely disfiguring an actor to play the role is a bit over the top.
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May 24, 2023 17:27
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The most worrying thing here is just how much of the story has to go to get down to movie length. Can you even fit an effective Shivers/Monza outlook reversal on revenge?
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May 31, 2023 02:04
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