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Ersatz
Sep 17, 2005

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

This is accurate, except I think you need above a 3.0 for your JD to get GS-9, otherwise GS-7. Then again, I'm a GS-12 after two and a half years, so it's not like promotion comes slowly when working at the fed.

Between IBR and the speed with which examiners are promoted, I'm really not concerned with the level at which I'm hired; I'm just trying to get in. Unfortunately, the last opening was at GS-11.

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OptimistPrime
Jul 18, 2008
I know the ITC ratcheted up requirements midway through a job announcement. When I applied I was theoretically qualified through experience, now when I check the USAJobs entry, it looks like I missed that by a year.

JudicialRestraints
Oct 26, 2007

Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

lipstick thespian posted:

JudicialRestraints, what do you plan on doing after graduation?

Firm -> Midlaw Firm/In House -> Rehab -> Part Time Politician

Civil Service -> IBR Loan repayments at 10 years -> Small Firm Job As A Partner Or Something-> Part Time Politician with a job at a small firm.

Rural Lawyer -> Crushing Alcoholism -> Run for DA/Local Judge -> Die from a pickled liver


listed in order of preference

J Miracle
Mar 25, 2010
It took 32 years, but I finally figured out push-ups!
2l's without summer associate gigs, next year if everything still sucks (it will), we might want to consider applying for Presidential Management Fellowships, they're 1-2 posts with government agencies, they don't require a law degree but just some sort of advanced degree. A few people from my school got them and I think there's some sort of loan forgiveness option plus like 60k so it's not the worst thing in the world.

https://www.pmf.opm.gov/

TheMadMilkman
Dec 10, 2007

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

This is accurate, except I think you need above a 3.0 for your JD to get GS-9, otherwise GS-7. Then again, I'm a GS-12 after two and a half years, so it's not like promotion comes slowly when working at the fed.

I had below a 3.0 and am started at GS-9. It may be different in the patent office, however.

Napoleon I
Oct 31, 2005

Goons of the Fifth, you recognize me. If any man would shoot his emperor, he may do so now.

Ersatz posted:

Journal is extremely important if you're interested in clerking. If it really was a simple screwup on your part and you can make a straight-faced argument to whoever is in charge that it would be in no way unfair to the other competitors to make an exception to the normal process to enable you to apply, you should start hustling to make it happen.

Yeah, I tried this, got shot down. Emailed back, explained what happened, and received a terse and fairly rude email back stating that there were absolutely no exceptions.

Talked to two deans, neither was able/willing to do anything.

I (and at least 5 other people I know) all forgot to fill out a second required form. I generated an application number, assumed I was done, and then after the 5 p.m. deadline read the confirmation email, wherein I was informed about the other form.

Bro Enlai
Nov 9, 2008

drew something for this journal at the liberal arts grad school

Sulecrist
Apr 5, 2007

Better tear off this bar association logo.

Red Bean Juice posted:

drew something for this journal at the liberal arts grad school



really good

J Miracle
Mar 25, 2010
It took 32 years, but I finally figured out push-ups!
that dude falling off to the side is the luckiest dude

Revolver
Feb 23, 2004

nm posted:

Seriously?
You'll make that or more in east jesus nowhere, CA where you can buy a palace for $250k.
So yeah, don't move to New York. (Don't move to CA either, no jobs).
Hell, Minneapolis pays $50ishk out of LS.

This was open a few weeks ago:
http://www.jobaps.com/SF/specs/classspecdisplay.asp?ClassNumber=8177&R1=undefined&R3=undefined
Yes, that is Attorney I. There is a catch: It isn'tt civil service (at will, which can be bad if you're expensive and it is crunch time), and it isn't exactly easy to get in.
Sacramento PD just bumped starting salaries to $88k, but that is all in theory as they are not hiring (in fct, they are laying off).
Santa Clara DA has an opening starting at $92k -- entry level: http://www.governmentjobs.com/view_job.cfm?JobID=225587&hit_count=Yes&

Worth noting: DA and PD are paid the same in CA, so do county council though an "entry-level" county council job generally requires experience.
Also worth noting if you actually get any of these jobs you've worked for free for a bit somewhere in CA.

Very interesting. I lived my life mostly in the Midwest and those PD and ADA jobs start at $40-50K. I'm shocked there are state jobs that pay that much for someone just out of law school.

7StoryFall
Nov 16, 2003

stingray1381 posted:

Very interesting. I lived my life mostly in the Midwest and those PD and ADA jobs start at $40-50K. I'm shocked there are state jobs that pay that much for someone just out of law school.

CA is also going broke, if it isn't already. I wouldn't be surprised if these positions get some sort of salary cut, eventually. Then again, since it's California... maybe not.

Ersatz
Sep 17, 2005

Napoleon I posted:

Yeah, I tried this, got shot down. Emailed back, explained what happened, and received a terse and fairly rude email back stating that there were absolutely no exceptions.

Talked to two deans, neither was able/willing to do anything.

I (and at least 5 other people I know) all forgot to fill out a second required form. I generated an application number, assumed I was done, and then after the 5 p.m. deadline read the confirmation email, wherein I was informed about the other form.

That really really sucks. I'd tell you to take it up with a dean (particularly since a number of other people made the same mistake), but you already did that. At least you gave it a shot. As a last resort, you might try petitioning together. Assuming that the write-on hasn't begun there really is no reason I can think of, aside from administrative laziness, that in the scenario you've described exceptions shouldn't be made.

VladTemplar
Apr 6, 2008

Yahoo Finance by The Wall Street Journal posted:


Employment prospects dim as firms retrench, derailing career paths for many.

provided by
The Wall Street Journal

Fabian Ronisky thought he was on track last summer to become a high-powered corporate lawyer. He was an intern at a leading firm in Los Angeles, earning about $3,000 weekly. But the firm didn't offer him a permanent job.

So Mr. Ronisky, a 25-year-old student at Chicago's Northwestern University School of Law, spent the fall sending 50 resumes to law firms and government agencies, to no avail. Now, just days shy of graduation and with $150,000 of student loans, he plans to move back to his parents' home in San Diego and sell music and movies online.

"I wanted to use my education," he said. "But times change."

Mr. Ronisky is one of about 40,000 law-school students who will graduate this spring and enter one of the worst job markets for attorneys in decades. This year's classes have it particularly bad, according to lawyers and industry experts. Though hiring was down last year as well, they said 2009 graduates applied for jobs before law firms had felt the full brunt of the downturn.

The situation is so bleak that some students and industry experts are rethinking the value of a law degree, long considered a ticket to financial security. If students performed well, particularly at top-tier law schools, they could count on jobs at corporate firms where annual pay starts as high as $160,000 and can top out well north of $1 million. While plenty of graduates are still set to embark on that career path, many others have had their dreams upended.

Part of the problem is supply and demand. Law-school enrollment has held steady in recent years while law firms, judges, the government and other employers have drastically cut hiring in the economic downturn.



Large corporate law firms have been hit particularly hard. The nation's 100 highest-grossing corporate firms last year reported an average revenue decline of 3.4%, the first overall drop in more than 20 years, according to the May issue of The American Lawyer magazine.

Morrison & Foerster LLP, a 1,000-lawyer San Francisco-based firm, hired about 30% fewer graduates this year than in the prior year.
"It would not surprise me if all firms cut back on hiring law graduates for a couple of years," said Keith Wetmore, its chairman. Saul Ewing LLP, a 250-lawyer Philadelphia firm, cut hiring of law graduates this year by about two-thirds.

Law firms of all sizes have suffered as clients have curbed work on real-estate acquisitions, mergers, public offerings and other staples of corporate practice. They have had to fire lawyers, reduce hiring and defer the start dates of the law graduates who did receive job offers.

Many 2009 law graduates who were offered jobs just started work this year. And many graduates hired in 2010 won't start until 2011. So even when the economy picks up, firms would first have to absorb their backlog of recent hires.

It is too early to get a comprehensive view of the employment rate for the 2010 class, but there are plenty of troubling indicators.

Law firms had an average of 16 summer internship positions to offer this year, about half the number of the previous year, according to a March report by the National Association for Law Placement Inc.

Employers last year offered 69% of summer interns a full-time job, down from about 90% in the previous five years.

The University of Texas School of Law, long regarded as among the nation's top 20, estimates the employment rate for 2010 graduates is down about 10% to 15% from last year.

"I've been at this for 23 years, and this is the worst job market I've ever seen," said Karen Klouda, head of career services at the University of Iowa College of Law.


Those considering law school might want to reconsider, said Allan Tanenbaum, chairman of an American Bar Association commission studying the impact of the economic crisis on the profession. Students take on average law-school debt of about $100,000 and, given the job market, many "have no foreseeable way to pay that back," he said.

Thomas Reddy, a second-year student at Brooklyn Law School, hasn't landed a summer internship yet after sending resumes to more than 50 law firms. He is taking on about $70,000 of debt each year of the three-year program to earn his degree, but said he may be fortunate to make $80,000 a year in a lawyer job after graduating. "That is less than what I was making before I went to law school," he said.

Many graduating students remained optimistic and determined to find legal jobs, according to interviews with students and career counselors. And many have secured good positions.

But it is bad form on campuses to bask in one's success, said Sue Landsittel, a Northwestern law student who will clerk at the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Seattle and join a top corporate firm after that. "You want to celebrate your own good fortune, but you have to remember it's a delicate issue."

Write to Nathan Koppel at nathan.koppel@wsj.com

I got a good laugh at a career services person saying that the job market is bad, surprised they managed to get that from one of those offices. I don't feel like I have too much to offer to this thread, but I could offer a bit of my own story.

I'm fairly passionate about drug policy, and I saw a chance for me to get a law degree, work as a public defender, and try to take as many drug cases as I could get my hands on. I had interned prior to law school for a criminal defense attorney who specialized in drug law, and it taught me a lot about the way law actually works. It was nigh impossible to take classes seriously (though I took them very seriously) while in the back of my head I remember how virtually nothing we talked about would ever really matter.

A couple of professors were kind enough to ask me to stop by their offices after the first semester, and they just laid it out. They basically said they felt like I had an awful lot of passion, but the way the legal world was shaping up the chances of that passion being utilized in any effective way was virtually non-existent. One even said she'd have left law entirely if the professorship job hadn't come around. The advised me to seek other avenues, because law was probably going to become a really lovely field to work in very soon.

Never got better advice than that it seems.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Ersatz posted:

Between IBR and the speed with which examiners are promoted, I'm really not concerned with the level at which I'm hired; I'm just trying to get in. Unfortunately, the last opening was at GS-11.

We're supposed to be opening up hiring back to the "general public" in October. I think we're hiring patent professionals now, though, and I think we might consider you currently if you've passed the patent bar even if you don't have work experience. Find a SPE's phone number in an art unit that matches your undergrad.

If you PM me, I might be able to help put you in contact with someone on Tuesday.

Ersatz
Sep 17, 2005

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

We're supposed to be opening up hiring back to the "general public" in October. I think we're hiring patent professionals now, though, and I think we might consider you currently if you've passed the patent bar even if you don't have work experience. Find a SPE's phone number in an art unit that matches your undergrad.

If you PM me, I might be able to help put you in contact with someone on Tuesday.

I appreciate it. Unfortunately though, based on what HR has told me, the new deal is that they have to approve a candidate before that candidate can sit down and talk to a SPE, so it's completely out of the SPE's hands if there isn't a current announcement. The bureaucratization of the hiring process has led to some absurd results. One of my friends from my former firm had three years of experience as an examiner, applied under the GS-11 announcement, and was rejected because they took so long in processing his application that he "missed" HR's arbitrary deadline for rehires.

I think the "patent professional" program was the GS-11 announcement, and I was ultimately rejected under that announcement as lacking the necessary year of experience.

The good news is that HR has also said that over the summer they plan to put up GS-9 postings for specific backgrounds, most likely CS, EE, and bio. I'm a Patent Agent with a CS background, a summer of preparation and prosecution experience at a patent firm, and a patent-related journal publication so, if and when that happens, I should be in good stead. Regardless, it would rock if they do open it back up to the "general public" in October. That makes me think that they might go back to hiring engineers straight out of undergrad.

Ersatz fucked around with this message at 02:03 on May 10, 2010

in absentia
Mar 20, 2006

Napoleon I posted:

Yeah, I tried this, got shot down. Emailed back, explained what happened, and received a terse and fairly rude email back stating that there were absolutely no exceptions.

Talked to two deans, neither was able/willing to do anything.

I (and at least 5 other people I know) all forgot to fill out a second required form. I generated an application number, assumed I was done, and then after the 5 p.m. deadline read the confirmation email, wherein I was informed about the other form.

Last year we had a guy send an e-mail to the Editor-in-Chief threatening congressional hearings after the Westlaw dropbox didn't let him submit his packet on time.

It worked.

So, hopefully you know a Congressman?

Ersatz
Sep 17, 2005

Napoleon I posted:

Yeah, I tried this, got shot down. Emailed back, explained what happened, and received a terse and fairly rude email back stating that there were absolutely no exceptions.

Talked to two deans, neither was able/willing to do anything.

I (and at least 5 other people I know) all forgot to fill out a second required form. I generated an application number, assumed I was done, and then after the 5 p.m. deadline read the confirmation email, wherein I was informed about the other form.

in absentia posted:

Last year we had a guy send an e-mail to the Editor-in-Chief threatening congressional hearings after the Westlaw dropbox didn't let him submit his packet on time.

It worked.

So, hopefully you know a Congressman?
Actually, is the competition itself run by the journal's editorial board? If so, I would email the current editor-in-chief directly explaining the situation, and tell the other people in your situation to do the same. There's really nothing to lose by doing that. The worst that happens is that he or she gets annoyed, and it's not like they'll have any power over you if you're denied the opportunity to write on.

billion dollar bitch
Jul 20, 2005

To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.
So we had an eight-hour takehome. Strict 1L curve. Strict eight/five page limit for the two questions (you couldn't even write the answers nine/four). Twelve point font and "standard margins," which I took to be one inch (which is standard, right?) I now hear that there's at least one student who just moved the margins so he can write more. Professor is a nice guy, and probably wouldn't do anything if he notices it.

Should I mention the margin/font issue to him, that I heard that there were students that bent the rules for themselves and I was kind of pissed when I heard (which could make him watch out for it/maybe downgrade people). Or should I just do nothing?

Elotana
Dec 12, 2003

and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Red Bean Juice posted:

drew something for this journal at the liberal arts grad school


love this picture so much

Ersatz
Sep 17, 2005

billion dollar bitch posted:

Should I mention the margin/font issue to him, that I heard that there were students that bent the rules for themselves and I was kind of pissed when I heard (which could make him watch out for it/maybe downgrade people). Or should I just do nothing?

Either response is reasonable. If you do decide to contact the professor though, I'd check your school's rules about communicating with a professor regarding an exam before the grades are out. It's strictly forbidden to do so where I'm at.

Phil Moscowitz
Feb 19, 2007

If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!
write a scathing email cc:allstudents

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


I wouldn't necessarily assume that more words = better than

entris
Oct 22, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post

Phil Moscowitz posted:

write a scathing email cc:allstudents

On letterhead.

"From the desk of _________"

But don't sign it "esq.", that'll get you in trouble.

sigmachiev
Dec 31, 2007

Fighting blood excels

billion dollar bitch posted:

Should I mention the margin/font issue to him, that I heard that there were students that bent the rules for themselves and I was kind of pissed when I heard (which could make him watch out for it/maybe downgrade people). Or should I just do nothing?

Normally I would say do what's best for you, which would be tell the prof. But your net benefit here (one less person fighting for an A) isn't worth what could end up being a serious consequence for this dude depending on your honor court. Let it slide and let karma work it out.

My advice changes if you dislike this person or if money is on the line.

Tetrix
Aug 24, 2002

I know you guys come here for your BREAKING NEWS

It's Kagan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36967616/ns/politics-supreme_court/

Draile
May 6, 2004

forlorn llama

Tetrix posted:

I know you guys come here for your BREAKING NEWS

It's Kagan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36967616/ns/politics-supreme_court/

Wouldn't be terribly surprised by this. She got the Solicitor General job despite never having litigated anything in her career. I don't see too much purpose to making her SG if not to build her credentials for a later court appointment.

HiddenReplaced
Apr 21, 2007

Yeah...
it's wanking time.

Tetrix posted:

I know you guys come here for your BREAKING NEWS

It's Kagan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36967616/ns/politics-supreme_court/

Wow, that's out of left field. I mean I loved The Critic, too, but I didn't think it would get Jon Lovitz on the bench.

Incredulous Red
Mar 25, 2008

sigmachiev posted:

My advice changes if you dislike this person or if money is on the line.

Less competition for BigLaw job upon graduation?

MaximumBob
Jan 15, 2006

You're moving who to the bullpen?

HiddenReplaced posted:

Wow, that's out of left field. I mean I loved The Critic, too, but I didn't think it would get Jon Lovitz on the bench.

Lovitz would fly through confirmation hearings. "What's your opinion on abortion?" "It STINKS!" (all Republicans vote yea)

billion dollar bitch
Jul 20, 2005

To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.
I wanted Harold Koh, but it was a forlorn hope.

billion dollar bitch
Jul 20, 2005

To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.

sigmachiev posted:

Normally I would say do what's best for you, which would be tell the prof. But your net benefit here (one less person fighting for an A) isn't worth what could end up being a serious consequence for this dude depending on your honor court. Let it slide and let karma work it out.

My advice changes if you dislike this person or if money is on the line.

I actually do (mildly) dislike the guy, but would feel uncomfortable making a decision on those grounds instead for general fairness/equity reasons.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

billion dollar bitch posted:

Professor is a nice guy, and probably wouldn't do anything if he notices it.

He'll notice, trust me.

I mean hell, even if he wouldn't notice it alone, he will notice the one out of thirty that has tiny margins because there's 29 that look the same and one that looks different and will probably be insulted.

billion dollar bitch
Jul 20, 2005

To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.
Would he mark down for that, if he notices? Or would he default to thinking that it's not a big deal, and then change his mind when a student brings it to his attention?

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

billion dollar bitch posted:

Would he mark down for that, if he notices? Or would he default to thinking that it's not a big deal, and then change his mind when a student brings it to his attention?

I have no idea since I've literally never picked up an exam/paper that's been graded in law school. I would assume though that he'll notice and do the same thing regardless of if you tell him or not, and it might not look great if you ever want to ask him for a recommendation.

Like print out ten sheets with normal margins and narrow margins on one (with text) to see for yourself how obvious it is.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

7StoryFall posted:

CA is also going broke, if it isn't already. I wouldn't be surprised if these positions get some sort of salary cut, eventually. Then again, since it's California... maybe not.
These are county, not state jobs. Only some counties are near bankrupt. Also, as PD and DA pay is linked, it is really hard to cut pay, as that isn't tough on crime. Also, the DA and PD offices want good employees and would rather pay a few less people a bit more than more people a bit less.


You shouldn't move out here for these jobs, the market is fairly saturated.

Mr Gentleman
Apr 29, 2003

the Educated Villain of London

edit: oops

CmdrSmirnoff
Oct 27, 2005
happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy
Local news had a segment today about how teachers are pretending to be Catholic to score jobs in the Catholic school board. I wonder if they'll ever do a bit on sucking dick for jobs in Barrow.

They won't because to the average person becoming a lawyer is still a honeypot and no amount of blowjob for summary buttfuck stories will convince them otherwise

Feces Starship
Nov 11, 2008

in the great green room
goodnight moon

billion dollar bitch posted:

So we had an eight-hour takehome. Strict 1L curve. Strict eight/five page limit for the two questions (you couldn't even write the answers nine/four). Twelve point font and "standard margins," which I took to be one inch (which is standard, right?) I now hear that there's at least one student who just moved the margins so he can write more. Professor is a nice guy, and probably wouldn't do anything if he notices it.

Should I mention the margin/font issue to him, that I heard that there were students that bent the rules for themselves and I was kind of pissed when I heard (which could make him watch out for it/maybe downgrade people). Or should I just do nothing?

Just let it go. People who cheat will get theirs.

ps hope you did good barenbuddy

billion dollar bitch
Jul 20, 2005

To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.
Well, I've decided not to do anything. But Feces, how are you saying "people will cheat will get theirs?" How will people get theirs if nothing happens?

For the record, I know a girl who actually cheated on the LSAT and got into American University LS from that. Of course you can say, "lol she is in law school she got hers amirite?" but then there's necessarily some kid out there who's going to a not-as-good law school, who might have done much better otherwise.

I guess the difference is nobody will know if she cheated on the LSAT and hopefully the prof can just look at the margins...

PS Good luck to you too.

billion dollar bitch fucked around with this message at 04:45 on May 10, 2010

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MoFauxHawk
Jan 1, 2007

Mickey Mouse copyright
Walt Gisnep

billion dollar bitch posted:

Well, I've decided not to do anything. But Feces, how are you saying "people will cheat will get theirs?" How will people get theirs if nothing happens?

For the record, I know a girl who actually cheated on the LSAT and got into American University LS from that. Of course you can say, "lol she is in law school she got hers amirite?" but then there's necessarily some kid out there who's going to a not-as-good law school, who might have done much better otherwise.

I guess the difference is nobody will know if she cheated on the LSAT and hopefully the prof can just look at the margins...

PS Good luck to you too.

No, you're right. "Karma will even things out" or "people who cheat will get theirs" just isn't true. Plenty of horrible people benefit greatly from doing horrible things. That said, karma is a bitch ;) mwah

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