Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Mookie posted:

So wait, they no-offered you and then changed their mind?

They didn't make any offers in my office last summer, but my reviews were good and work is picking up again in my specialization, so they decided to make me the offer now.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2010 20:27

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 14:02

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Mookie posted:

Nothing like feeling wanted, eh?

Absolutely.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2010 22:43

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

gvibes posted:

It basically just goes back to pre-Bilski, as far as I can tell. I.e., software and business method patents are alive and well.

Pretty much.

entris posted:

I don't know what Baruch is bitching about... sounds like job security for his entire field.

Yep.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2010 20:55

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Vim Fuego posted:

I'm giving it a year and then getting an MBA/joining the coast guard.

I have no way to substantiate this, but I've heard that getting an MBA is just as bad an idea as getting a JD right now. But apparently there aren't any safe degrees at the moment so do what you like I guess.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2010 05:17

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

So one of my friends has a strong interest in tax law, lives in DC, and thinks she might enjoy working for the IRS. I remember some chatter earlier in the thread about open entry-level positions requiring an accounting background. She has her JD, a degree in economics, and some accounting coursework. If those positions are still open, do any of the IRS people in the thread know if that might get her in the door? Thanks in advance.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2010 03:23

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

methamphetamine posted:

I'm having a really hard time trying to decide between Boalt and Columbia as a transfer. Boalt would be cheaper as I am in-state, and I want to practice in California. On the other hand I feel the greed for lay prestige making me want to go to Columbia instead. Is this a good idea?

Boalt's a great school and if you're planning to practice in California I don't see why you'd pass up the opportunity to go there. As for lay prestige (why does that matter?), just tell them you went to Berkeley's law school. They'll be impressed.

edit:

Phil Moscowitz posted:

Go to Cal you noob

# ¿ Jul 8, 2010 03:07

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Lykourgos posted:

literally have never heard of "boalt", am still 'ing at the ridiculous sounding name. expect this reaction from anybody you try to impress in the future with your stupid sounding school name

Apparently it's now officially "Berkeley Law" anyway.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2010 03:18

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

TheMadMilkman posted:

When you say strong interest in tax law, what do you mean precisely? Does she want to work as an attorney, or just pursue general tax work? If it's the former, then her choice is to get into counsel. If it's the latter, there are plenty of other choices to look into.

Thanks for the reply! Her primary goal is to become an attorney, but she had to pay her own way for law school and would be willing to do something else in the meantime if it qualifies for IBR and might conceivably help her towards that goal. She's taken a few tax law classes, really enjoyed them, and has stated an interest in working for the IRS.

Luckily, she also has a degree in electrical engineering and might have a shot at becoming an examiner with the PTO through their current announcement. But, having dealt with their HR department before, I think the smart thing for her to do would be to apply for any agency job related to her interests that wouldn't permanently handicap her ability to find work as an attorney if and when the economy turns around.

From what people were saying at the beginning of this thread it sounded like there were opportunities at the IRS that might fit that description, and given her interest I thought I'd try to find to find out if they were still out there.

I'd really appreciate any pointers you might have that could be relayed.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2010 04:56

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

sigmachiev posted:

TRANSFER CHAT

Got Berkeley this morning myself yeeeeeeeeeeee!

Awesome!

# ¿ Jul 8, 2010 23:40

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Tetrix posted:

Thoughts on joining a secondary journal? Is it worth the work? I would like to clerk if possible, so that weighs in favor of it. Am I going to get pigeonholed by employers thinking that I am only interested in the topic of the journal?

I was on my school's international panda journal and ended up with a job in a completely different field. I wasn't pigeonholed, but I did occasionally have to explain in interviews why I believed that knowledge of international law was helpful for someone intending to do IP work. My first year on the journal was a bit of a drag, but did not require an unreasonable amount of time, and the second was really worthwhile in terms of the opportunities it provided for improving my writing. Serving as an editor has also been a useful gold star.

If you want to clerk, I'd definitely recommend joining a journal. Even more so if your school has a journal in a field that interests you.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2010 05:49

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

poofactory posted:

The legal economy is strong and rubust... for some. Many lawyers and law students just do not understand how to be successful. There are many rich and lead rewarding lives and some that even make good money while working few hours. It is all about playing the system and having the knowledge and ability to be successful. Most people do not have these abilities.

Title/post combination.

Business posted:

reproduction of hierarchy bitchezzz

Read Duncan Kennedy everyday. :350:

# ¿ Jul 15, 2010 01:40

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

Why not? It's great evidence in my view of the person of ordinary skill in the art at a given time; if the teaching is so common as to be on Wikipedia, it's in fact below the ordinary skill to something like lay unskilled in the art.

e: I use Wikipedia as 102(b) references all the time: it's published, the end!

Now that you've mentioned this I wonder why it doesn't happen more often. It seems like the perfect way to shut someone down, and it's infinitely more legitimate than the "it's obvious but I won't tell you why lalalala" thing that examiners do.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2010 04:38

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

entris posted:

There's a big difference between legal absolutism and saying that it's wrong to steal other people's property- which is exactly what piracy is, despite young peoples' strange inchoate objections to the contrary.

Actually,

Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207, 217�18 (1985) posted:

[I]nterference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ...

The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2010 04:41

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Defleshed posted:

And I whole-heartedly support the breaking of laws en-masse if enough people disagree with them.

I guess that makes me a terrible lawyer but then again I'm not a loving lawyer anyway because I don't have a job so who gives a loving poo poo!

I think that just makes you a reasonable person.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2010 04:47

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Lykourgos posted:

on the other hand, a lot of us just got done with the bar and hate life

For me its not so much hatred of life as exasperation with the pointlessness of this particular examination. Completing the bar felt more like escaping from three months of elaborate hazing than an accomplishment.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2010 21:52

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Lykourgos posted:

Yeh, the bar does give a feeling of "why the gently caress did I have to undergo that?" I spent 10 full days studying and it was sheer agony the whole way. And for what? It is meaningless in light of the fact that lawyers and judges I've worked with have said I'm qualified, and I already jumped through two decades of bullshit education already.

Yep.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2010 22:06

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

IrritationX posted:

During interviews, I'll usually turn the questions they asked back around on them. Are you doing what you expected you would be doing five years ago? What are the best and worst parts about the work you're doing? If a friend's son or daughter were looking for a job as a lawyer, would you recommend this firm, and why or why not? Most importantly, ask them if there's anything that they would like to know more about or any questions that they have about you that haven't been answered during the interview.

This is solid advice. You'd be surprised at how candid interviewers can be when asked these kinds of questions, and they seem to enjoy answering them.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2010 03:46

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Mr Gentleman posted:

I feel like for screening interviews, they've already decided by the time they see your transcript. at least if there's no pre-screening. at the firm where I summered, I had a chat with the recruiting people and they were like yeah if your grades aren't up to snuff there's no chance you're going to roll in and win them over with your personality or super cool resume or something.

If your grades are reasonably good but not fantastic screening interviews can sometimes make the difference though.

Anecdotally, the firm I'm at now screened twenty other candidates, many with better grades than mine, on the day they first interviewed me. They only invited one student from my school for a callback that year and I've since been told by both of the interviewers that it was my interview that won them over.

The extent to which it matters probably varies by firm, but after grades "fit" is the next most important factor. Screening interviews enable the interviewers to guess at how you'll fit in at their firm.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2010 02:14

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

GamingHyena posted:

Is it possible to be burned out after 3 years? gently caress this profession.

I've been under the impression that it's not only possible but actually quite common.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2010 08:18

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

evilweasel posted:

Just got an offer woot

Congrats!

# ¿ Aug 17, 2010 00:53

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

GregNorc posted:

I guess what I should say is, you're learning the theory of computation. Not the nitty gritty "this is how you make websites in ruby".

And in law school, it's the same. You learn the foundations, you don't memorize statues and stuff - that's what the bar exam is for.

pnumoman posted:

As a CS major and law school grad, I can testify to the accuracy of this statement.

Thirding this because it is completely accurate.

# ¿ Aug 17, 2010 02:45

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Gadamer posted:

what the hell is "complex Algebra"?

Enjoy.

evilweasel posted:

can I take CS courses I love programming

GregNorc posted:

can I take law courses I love arguing

I used to think you were incredibly annoying GregNorc, but you're alright.

chinchilla posted:

The op is excellent, thanks to everyone that contributed, but one thing wasn't entirely clear. What difference does your focus in undergrad make? Any at all? Would a degree like music history (mine) be a disadvantage?

Some backgrounds can be advantageous if you're trying to break into a specific field of law, but so long as there's some writing involved no undergraduate major is really a disadvantage. Think of law school as starting over.

# ¿ Aug 18, 2010 04:51

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

JudicialRestraints posted:

If someone interviewing me tells me to give HIM a call, what the gently caress does that mean?

Did he wink?

# ¿ Aug 18, 2010 05:19

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

billion dollar bitch posted:

Okay I'm one and seven for callbacks/rejections. I don't think I've ever been more depressed. 20 interviews outstanding.

It's still early for DC. I managed four call-backs from OCI in 2008, but three of those weren't arranged until mid-September.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2010 03:34

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

JudicialRestraints posted:

Do you have any idea on the turnaround for government callbacks in DC looks like?

Unfortunately, no. The only government interview I had during law school was arranged through a professor so I don't know how the process regularly works.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2010 04:17

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

entris posted:

I'm sure that happens all the time

I've been similarly charged.

# ¿ Aug 22, 2010 02:14

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Lykourgos posted:

Wait... three months? I thought the appropriate day-in day-out study time was ten days or so

BigHead is probably arriving at three months by including BarBri lectures and readings prior to crunch time. That part wasn't really soul crushing though, just mildly disturbing.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2010 00:40

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

BigHead posted:

Well I don't know about you fellas, but I studied at least 8 hours a day every day for 3 months (minus weekends). My bar has a mandatory 40% failure rate, so the bare possibility of doing anything less is unheard of.

I was completely fried after finals and couldn't muster the discipline for that until late June. Until that point, if you count time spent in BarBri lectures, I averaged about 5 hours each day.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2010 04:31

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

deathdrive83 posted:

Oh dear god, I just got an offer from my 2L firm after being no offered last summer.

Awesome, congrats!

# ¿ Aug 24, 2010 04:28

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

billion dollar bitch posted:

Do firms still do callbacks after labor day?

Yep.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2010 02:55

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

chinchilla posted:

Reading this thread is like watching a play written by a dog.

e: wrote this before I noticed the corndog discussion

And he Heard, As it Were, the Gibbering of the Legally Educated, Some of the Beasts Saying Come and Read, And he Read, and Behold, his Future

The Whirlwind is in the Thorn Tree

# ¿ Aug 27, 2010 01:28

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

chinchilla posted:

Right, thanks everyone. I've got lots of experience speaking to groups, but no extracurriculars. Unless research and internships / skilled employment count. Do those count? Just wondering.

In any case I guess it's a "maybe" if I have free time next year.

They matter more than most extracurriculars to potential employers (and research can be played up in an interview, if substantial). I doubt that they significantly affect admissions decisions, however.

Ersatz fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Aug 27, 2010

# ¿ Aug 27, 2010 01:35

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

The Engibeard posted:

So an engineering undergrad thinking about going into patent/ intellectual property law is bad?

An engineering (or hard science) background is required for patent practice, but won't confer any sort of advantage with regard to practicing other branches of intellectual property law. If you're serious about patent law you should think about studying for and taking this exam. If that sounds difficult or tedious then patent law is probably not for you (there's no shame in that). You should also know long before you make any kind of commitment to law school that IP practitioners were hit just as hard as everyone else by the recession, and that things are going to be shaky for the foreseeable future.

A far better plan than going straight from undergrad to law school would be working at the patent office as an examiner. They've started hiring electrical and computer engineering majors again, and the rumor is that they'll start hiring more broadly in the near future. The job pays well, is relatively easy, and would increase your chances of landing a position at a firm if you do eventually decide to practice law.

Ersatz fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Aug 30, 2010

# ¿ Aug 30, 2010 02:29

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

7StoryFall posted:

This is anecdotal but I was told by an IP partner at a large firm (near the top of the Amlaw 100) that working as an examiner isn't the way to get into a large firm, if that's your goal. He told me that it "wouldn't be a good career move." That said, it was a single lawyer at a single firm. YMMV.

It probably varies by firm, but it's a fair point. A few mid-level associates I know worked as examiners following law school and eventually transitioned from that into private practice, but it's definitely not the way to go if you're interested in big law and have other options.

For purposes of a summer program at an IP firm though it makes a lot more sense to bring in a summer who went from undergrad to the PTO to law school rather than straight from undergrad to law school: they'll come in with practical knowledge of patent practice and they're more likely to be telling the truth when they say they're interested in the work.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2010 02:56

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

BigHead posted:

Ted.

I'd share similar cautionary tales, but it's not really necessary. Suffice to say that Ted's experience is depressingly typical.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2010 03:25

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Leon Kowalski posted:

Ted is correct in that OCI sucks for most everyone right now.

Ted might not be correct about a bachelors in engineering being out of luck for patent law. My understanding is that they can get away with avoiding grad school. Are things so bad that even engineers need grad school? I have no personal stake in the matter; I'm someone who took the "science PhD" route to patent law too.

I landed a position as a patent prosecutor with bachelor's degrees and a JD, but most of my classmates weren't so lucky. In the predictable arts (electrical, mechanical, CS, and so on for the uninitiated) grad school doesn't seem to make much difference. For bio or chem it's extremely important.

Ersatz fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Aug 30, 2010

# ¿ Aug 30, 2010 04:23

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

TheMadMilkman posted:

Speaking of jobs, grab an Intro to Accounting review book or something. The IRS should have another major hiring push in the next month or so. You won't start work until March, but it's something.

Do you happen to have a copy of the announcement from the last time around, or do you remember what the requirements were? A good friend of mine is still looking for work and would be highly interested.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2010 04:06

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Woot - I just found out that one of my friends has an interview tomorrow at the Patent Office. She has a bachelor's in electrical engineering and a JD, so hopefully it'll work out.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2010 04:28

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Mookie posted:

Up for today: Laird's 12 year old apple brandy.

BECAUSE EVEN APPLEJACK CAN BE CLASSY

Mix with hot cider and cinnamon to please crowds.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2010 01:42

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 14:02

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Petey posted:

Teaching a class on legal realism and The Bramble Bush to high schoolers tomorrow. Takeaway message: all judges are activists, law is politics, burn everything down.

That's pretty cool. How did you arrange to teach the class?

# ¿ Sep 16, 2010 02:00

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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