Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

CmdrSmirnoff posted:

The problem with the smaller/midsize firms is that they mostly take their summer student as the articling student, rarely hiring extras. I can't see that changing in this economy.

It's not just the smaller firms. FMC Edmonton kept on all five of its summer students and only hired one additional person during the articling week interviews.

# ¿ May 8, 2010 19:45

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 07:47

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Solomon Grundy posted:

Here is an example. My first year as a lawyer, the biggest, scariest partner gave me a research assignment. He wanted the answer to be "yes." I burned the midnight oil and gave him a comprehensive review of the law, which concluded with the answer being "no." I dropped it off. An hour later, I get called in and screamed at. He said "I can find a hundred lawyers off of the street that will come in and tell me 'no.' How do I get to yes?"

It's funny how this can differ between practice areas, though. I spent most of my summer on a litigation floor and I think your anecdote is bang-on. I did some work with a tax planning group, however, and got told to never do that - tax planning isn't about whether your argument is plausible, it's whether the relevant tax authorities have a leg to stand on when they're trying to audit you.

All depends on what you're trying to achieve, I guess.

# ¿ May 22, 2010 01:53

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

T-minus one month until I start working. Two months off sounded like such a long time, until I burned through half of it playing video games in my underwear.

# ¿ May 30, 2010 04:28

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

newberstein posted:

Bombed the one after the break. No point to cancel my score though because the next LSAT is after the application deadline of most law schools. Might as well see if I can get in anywhere with my URM status and if not, retake it in a year

Or, you know, not go.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2010 03:07

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

JimTheSarcastic posted:

I mentioned it a few pages back. Basically, a client decides, "I want to drill on blackacre," or simply, "I want to acquire leases in blackacre to gain position." We landmen go out and research the real estate title for that tract of land. We figure out who all the various owners of the mineral rights are, whether there are any problems with the title that we need to cure (e.g. ambiguous conveyances, faulty reservations of mineral rights, etc.), examine probate records if necessary to determine the heirs of a record owner--that kind of stuff. Also, a lot of landmen will also go out and negotiate the leases with the owners on behalf of the client.

You have just really made me appreciate the Torrens system.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2010 02:59

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Man, I'm a little bummed out that I never got a crack at jury duty. Lawyers are excluded here in Alberta.

Seems like the sort of thing that everyone should do once.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 06:06

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Wait, you guys don't have a loser-pays system?

# ¿ May 10, 2011 05:08

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

CmdrSmirnoff posted:

Even if a quarter of us are unemployed/without articles, that still means a majority of students have found work (even if only for a year). Going isn't a terrible decision, but it may not be a good one.

Btw for the record I turned down an offer in August, been looking ever since, B+ average and not socially retarded beyond the goon standard

U of Alberta grad checking in - articling here in Edmonton. Market out here seems reasonably good to my knowledge.

# ¿ May 12, 2011 04:28

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

hypocrite lecteur posted:

"Big" firm is relative in Edmonton. It's true the market isn't bad in Alberta though from what I've heard

Hey, we have like 80 lawyers :mad:

# ¿ May 13, 2011 04:51

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

"What's your greatest weakness?"

"Bullets."

# ¿ Jun 19, 2011 05:15

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Tokelau All Star posted:

I'm in my 2L summer clerking at a firm. I just got told by the senior partner that my services will no longer be needed after the end of the month because I was billing the firm for my time spent making exhibit copies and calling other attorneys/judges. This came out to less than two hours on my last time sheet. Fired over less than fifty bucks.

What? If I'm calling anybody on my client's behalf, drat right he's getting billed for it.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2011 01:33

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

prussian advisor posted:

Embarrassing to all the involved parties I mean, in a renaissance fair YES MY LORDE kind of way.

Come practice in Canada, you can say that every day!

# ¿ Sep 18, 2011 00:51

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

entris posted:

I have an entirely different experience. My bosses, whether partners or associates senior to me, will review substance and typos - and they freqently have substantive changes.

My favourite is when you take the partner's edits and the wording of a sentence is changed, and then they let the revised version sit for a few days, review it, ask you why you'd choose such an awkward wording and change it back to the way you had it the first time. Thanks boss!

# ¿ Feb 4, 2012 09:11

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Zarkov Cortez posted:

My understanding is that the Justice conducting the interview will be doing it on behalf of other Justices as well.

If there's an area of law that interests you, I would make it a point to identify in advance the Justices that are prominent in that area of law (e.g. you'll find Sharlow on most major tax cases). Don't be shy about stating that you'd be particulary interested in working with those Justices if there is a position open with those people. (But obviously don't say it in a way that suggests you wouldn't work with anyone else).

Schitzo fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Feb 4, 2012

# ¿ Feb 4, 2012 09:32

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Just to tweak the American lawgoons, here's the admission stats for the University of Alberta last year:

http://www.law.ualberta.ca/prospectivestudents/admissionsllb/applicationrequirements/documents/Admitted_Applicant_Profile.pdf

This is probably the second (?) best and/or well regarded law school west of the great lakes, and if you score a 168 on the LSAT you would be in the top 7% of applicants.

(In all fairness, the markets really aren't comparable - I have a completely unsubstantiated feeling that the Canadian experience is much more regional. For the most part you go to school where you want to practice)

Edit: Hell, even the best school in Canada (U of Toronto) says the following: As a point of reference, the median average/GPA of the 2011-2012 first-year class was 86.5% or 3.9GPA. The median LSAT was 168.

Moral of the story? Move to Canada, score some sweet health care and book learnin'

Edit 2: Guess who was hitting 168s in the practice LSATs and promptly stopped giving a gently caress about improving his score.

Schitzo fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Feb 7, 2012

# ¿ Feb 7, 2012 08:08

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Dallan Invictus posted:

Really, nice job, but bragging in a thread full of people at least as smart as you is prone to backfiring. I'm sure there's someone here who blew both of us out of the water with similar ease.

(and they still don't have a job. Don't go.)

Ouch. Pretty sure the only bragging I was doing was of the "life is so easy north of the border" variety, but my bad if that came off douchey.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2012 07:35

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Question for the prosecutors in the house: I assume that over time you build working relationships with defence counsel, and have a decent feel for who is reasonable and who isn't.

If a historically reasonable defence counsel ends up taking a hyper-aggresive position because their client instructs them to, do you hold it against the lawyer? Or just shrug it off as clients being clients?

# ¿ Feb 9, 2012 08:44

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Zarkov Cortez posted:

McGill Guide 6th Edition:
Canada Business Corporations Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. C-44, s. 181.

McGill Guide 7th Edition:
Canada Business Corporations Act, RSC 1985, c C-44, s 181.

Of course nobody who practices and half the teachers (or more) still use the old style.

This, a thousand times. I graduated law school the summer that they revised the McGill guide. So I try to adopt the new style, like a good new hire who still has the capacity to feel joy, and my reward is several parters looking at me like "what the gently caress is this?".

And then those assholes at CanLii adopt 7th ed. and now I have to manually change any cites that are copy-pasted.

Edit: Had one partner flat out call bullshit that this was the new style. Thought I made it up to cover my incompetence.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2012 10:13

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Omerta posted:

Pretty interesting, no idea what the outcome will be because RE and West are totally liable. Totally not novel though, every IP class in the country talks about how this is almost certainly copyright infringement.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/02/22/keep-your-hands-off-my-briefs-lawyers-sue-westlaw-lexis/

This might be a silly question, but how does copyright in a brief or other legal document work given that the filed documents are likely public and can be obtained by anybody willing to pay whatever fee the clerks charge?

# ¿ Feb 23, 2012 04:47

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Happiness is waking up to a blackberry with no new emails.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2012 04:34

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Penguins Like Pies posted:

I hate writing a paper and, with every passing hour, you realize how lovely the topic you picked is, but since you're such a procrastinator, it's too late to change the topic at all.

Yup, definitely been there. Nothing like desperately trying to tie it back to something relevant because hey, sunk costs.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2012 08:09

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

J Miracle posted:

I found it p hilarious to see all the people lugging these antiques around, plus you had to provide all your own ribbons, correcting fluid, etc and if there was a problem you were basically screwed. Not worth it imho, its basically one day of hand-cramping but you get through it.

Yeah that's what I was trying to say, basically. I mean I didn't have all the facts but the fact that the LLC owner and the surety tried to intervene back into the case after being subbed out for the receiver in order to prevent the sale and were denied the opportunity kind of upped the appearance of bullshit to me.

Bullshit seems like an understatement to me - unless there is a serious disconnect between the law in Canadia and the U.S., the Receiver should have a fiduciary duty to all parties to maximize the return on a sale of assets. Actively avoiding the chance to take a better offer is not exactly consistent with that role or that duty.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2012 05:34

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Our professional liability insurer sent around their annual report a couple of weeks ago. I'm a junior tax lawyer, and noticed that, by volume, tax claims comprised 1% of all negligence claims last year. (Seems reasonable, the tax bar is pretty small). By contrast, real estate and litigation were like 30% each.

Then you flip the page and it's a chart of total dollars paid, by area of law. I guess that 1% of claims accounted for 26% of the dollars paid last year.

Good to know that nobody screws up like we do, I guess?

# ¿ Apr 1, 2012 07:26

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Lilosh posted:

I'm a 2L looking into Tax as a practice area. I'm trying it with my firm this coming summer, and I've taken Fed Tax and Corporate tax this year.

What does Tax practice mostly consist of, day to day?

My day tends to vary depending on who I'm working for that day. To paint with a broad brush, the big areas are going to be either tax planning (corporate reorgs, trusts for wealthy individuals, etc.) or dispute resolution and litigation.

Planning is mostly writing memos to clients proposing plans, chasing down necessary info (cost base of shares, etc.), and preparing the agreements and other documents to implement it. As a junior, it's mostly implementing the plans that someone much smarter than you has thought of, and trying to figure out how it works.

Dispute resolution would be letter writing and appeals with the Canada Revenue Agency, taxpayer relief applications, the odd file that actually doesn't settle at the administrative level and gets taken to court.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2012 19:50

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Lilosh posted:

Ahh, thanks!

So there's a sort of transaction and litigation side to tax as well? Do people specialize in one or the other, or are most (like you) doing both?

I think the litigators are usually ok with the simple corporate matters, but the corporate guys aren't going to be dabbling with discoveries and the other nuts-and-bolts litigation matters. Tax litigation is a real niche within a niche.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2012 22:58

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Cormack posted:

No, divide it by 1/3 so then you're technically dividing the time among them. Then if someone finds out you just say you're bad at math. They will believe you since you went to law school.

Am i a bad lawyer? I don't see much wrong with splitting it 3 ways, as long as none of the three has some unique issue that needs extra attention.

Oh. Divide by 1/3, i get it. Well played. That probably would be enough for plausible deniability, especially if it has an assistant's name on it

# ¿ Apr 3, 2012 05:54

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

burf posted:

The most formal will.

My plan was to check your link, google the U of S bumper will, and reply with "the least formal will". Now I am sad and impotent.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2012 04:30

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Frankly, I'm surprised that Obama would say something that can easily be spun as "drat the constitution, the law is what I say it is". Seems like a talk radio host's wet dream.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2012 04:13

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

What really makes me scratch my head is the logic that could lead to such a statement. It basically reduces down to majority rule = valid law.

But one of the reasons any country has a judiciary in the first place is to protect minorities and society's most vulnerable from being trampled by the majority.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2012 05:52

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

They were all naked in the locker room growing up

One of the best things said to me by the former Chief Justice of our highest provincial court was "people don't know how to address me these days. Chief. Sir. My actual name. Judge. All I ask is that if we're both naked at the Y you don't call me 'my lord'."

# ¿ Apr 6, 2012 06:45

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

joat mon posted:

Insurance defense. "If your grandma had only pulled herself up by her bootstraps once in a while, she wouldn't have got those stage 4 decubs!"

Look, if that old lady wanted an unshattered hip, she shouldn't have been negligently daydreaming about gay Hitler child pornography to the point where she missed that first step.

/insurance defence

# ¿ Apr 21, 2012 05:50

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

entris posted:

Last night marked the end of an era and the beginning of a new one. My wife complained, for the first time, that "all you care about is billing your hours."

(Nevermind that I set aside Friday night and my entire Saturday as wife+child time, and nevermind that I have set aside an hour each Monday and Wednesday night to go running with her!)

When I started law school I told my wife that if it ever gets bad enough, she's allowed a no-questions-asked veto and I'll leave private practice. She knows I'm serious, so she doesn't bother complaining about the small stuff. And if it ever got to the point where she'd actually call veto, it's time for a change anyways.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2012 05:57

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Random practice tip for Canadian lawyers: if you get suckered into acting as an executor for your client(s), make sure your will expressly delegates that authority to someone in your firm in the event that you are an executor at the time of your death. Otherwise the power goes to your regular executor, and all of a sudden your wife is administering a bunch of random estates. That is a bad thing.

Edit: Or make sure there are at least two executors so that the power vests in the other executor when you die.

Schitzo fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Apr 26, 2012

# ¿ Apr 26, 2012 08:28

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Penguins Like Pies posted:

Officially a JD! Party all the time (until work starts).

Feeeeeeeels great to be actually done.

Goddamnit, my grandpa didn't die for the Queen in WW2 so that you could earn a JD. *spits*

# ¿ May 5, 2012 08:42

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Boosted_C5 posted:

Maybe I could do sort of a personal finance themed practice with these areas if I can easily teach myself bankruptcy and estates.

At the high end, estate planning is very much tax-driven, so the two are a pretty good fit. Not so much with the usual "all to my wife, then equally to my kids" type of wills.

# ¿ May 7, 2012 02:49

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Phil Moscowitz posted:

Isn't that based partially on people looking at your account?

ReasonsI'mNotOnFacebook.txt

# ¿ May 9, 2012 05:43

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

HiddenReplaced posted:

It doesn't surprise me that they try to bill for your time, but it would surprise me if your bill was actually accepted. Most likely they're billing you at a paralegal rate (which is still ridiculously inflated).

That wouldn't surprise me. Obviously most tasks can be done better and faster by a lawyer a few years out from the Bar, but some billable chores are going to take a fixed amount of time regardless of who does it (e.g. client in the middle of nowhere is willing to pay travel time to have someone deliver documents for signing, needle in a haystack searches through boxes of files, etc.).

Those are good ways to actually get some return on the students. Assuming the associate is willing to give up easy billables...

# ¿ May 23, 2012 06:26

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Chalk me up as another guy who learned best by making outlines. Which is a shame, when you know there are so many good outlines already out there.

# ¿ May 31, 2012 06:01

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Question to Canadian lawyers: any merit whatsoever in retroactively converting an LLB into a JD?

# ¿ Jun 12, 2012 06:13

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 07:47

Schitzo: Mar 20, 2006; I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Soothing Vapors posted:

Partner, assigning me (nonbillable) research topic: "I remember reading a case on this a while ago. Find that one. I think I found it by searching on Lexis"

THANKS MAN

Had a very senior partner give me a research assignment on a very narrow issue when I was an articling student ( :canada:

). What he didn't tell me was that several associates had already researched it and struck out. I end up hitting a home run where I not only find a trial level decision, but a subsequent case comment applauding the decision and an appellate decision entirely adopting the logic of the case comment.

Which somehow marked me as a research savant, and now I get all of the impossible questions, which I almost always strike out on entirely. Not sure how many failures it takes to cancel out one success...

Schitzo fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Jul 24, 2012

# ¿ Jul 24, 2012 07:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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