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The thing about Arya's decision is that it seems as if she has foreknowledge of events and knows that Roose is not trustworthy in a way that contradicts all of her internal monologues up to that point, it does seem a bit like a plot contrivance rather than an organic "children might act differently" thing. Up to that point Arya keeps wishing she could find some northman to reveal herself to but when Roose takes harrenhal it just doesn't feel right, fortunately for her. Admittedly I haven't read ACOK in a while, maybe I should. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Sep 23, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 15:35
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The thing about Arya's decision is that it seems as show she has foreknowledge of events and knows that Roose is not trustworthy in a way that contradicts all of her internal monologues up to that point, it does seem a bit like a plot contrivance rather than an organic "children might act differently" thing. Up to that point Arya keeps wishing she could find some northman to reveal herself to but when Roose takes harrenhal it just doesn't feel right, fortunately for her. I guess that's the problem. Is not so much about her decision, and more like the fact she didnt even seems to make a decision, she just goes for the most dangeours and crazy plan without ever stopping to think about it, without the book ever explaining why she did so. First she just dont trust Bolton, as if it was a natural decision, as if she never even though about it (she never even gives us a hint that she might think he is unloyal). Then she hears some wolves and goes "ok, Im out of here, come Gendry, come Hot Pie" and that's it. If only we had some a dialogue or monologue where she weights her options and chooses, something like "well, Im definitely aint going to trust that guy who is my brother's bannerman and instead I will just risk my life and my friends lives on this all-or-nothing escape because". No, where are left to speculate and rationalize about why would she not take the most obvious choice and instead go for the most dangeours, hard one. She choose a path that could very easily get her raped/tortured/flayed/killed instead of choosing to reveal herself, which, in the worst case scenario (Bolton has his own agenda and decides to keep her), would mean she is still a prisoner (and a very valuable one, as she knows). Even if she had any reason at all to think Bolton would not just send her to Robb (which she dont), it is still a very extreme decision. But it all happens like she never even had another choice or considered it. "She is a stupid little kid" is kinda of a lame excuse, considering the wits and cleverness she has show in several occasions. Actually, she seems to be stupid only when the plot makes it necessary (like her not telling Jaqen to kill Tywin, which would virtually end the war in the most boring way). Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 24, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 16:14
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Roose is creepy as hell. It seemed pretty fair to me that Arya would pick up on that and not trust him.
Wittgen fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 18:12
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I'm pretty sure we should all still be spoiler tagging this, guys.  Not trusting Roose Bolton is one thing, but killing a northman was really extreme.
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Sep 24, 2013 09:54
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When she does it she specifically points out that he's one of Bolton's men not one of her fathers banner men. This talk about Arya not having reason to mistrust Roose is especially funny considering that in the chapter he literally betrays Robb by sending Ser Glover to take Duskendale and claiming they are Robb's orders.
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Sep 24, 2013 17:21
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VagueRant posted:I'm pretty sure we should all still be spoiler tagging this, guys. The readalong that this thread started out as got to the end of ACOK before turning into the spoiler-bar discussion thread, so generally the practice has been to spoiler ASOS-on events but have the first two books be open season.
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Sep 25, 2013 20:12
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Shouldn't the OP and title reflect that then, if the first two books are now open season? I haven't finished the second book yet, although I'm up to date on the show so I have a general sense of what happens that far.
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Sep 26, 2013 22:28
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Blind Melon posted:When she does it she specifically points out that he's one of Bolton's men not one of her fathers banner men. This talk about Arya not having reason to mistrust Roose is especially funny considering that in the chapter he literally betrays Robb by sending Ser Glover to take Duskendale and claiming they are Robb's orders. I never actually though of that as treason, I just kinda assumed he had the authority to do that, being such a important bannerman and who is in charge of a big part of his army.
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Sep 26, 2013 22:33
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Robb gets pissed about it. Roose is continually sending northerners he doesn't like to die in battle, and Duskendale is no exception. It's hard to say when exactly he makes the decision to betray Robb, but he uses his position to send northerners to their death for future political advantage from day one. "By Robb's command" stands out because if Roose did have the authority on his own, he could give the orders in his own name, but for some reason he is distancing himself from the orders, and we later learn those orders were disastrous for Robb
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Sep 27, 2013 05:06
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I believe it is the start (or an early symptom) of Roose's plans. He lies about it to Robb when they next meet, saying Glover was deranged by grief and anger. At that same meeting, at the Twins, he says how his rearguard of White Harbour and other loyal lords' men were cut off and destroyed by Gregor Clegane at a river crossing. So it seems like he is systematically betraying the loyal parts of Robb's army to the lannisters before the red wedding.
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Oct 11, 2013 16:37
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I'm on my first re-read, so spoil me for anything except maybe TWOW chapters which I'm trying to avoid... Where was... the Stark sword Ice when Aerys burned Rickard and Brandon Stark? It seems like Rickard would have had it as he came down to lay the beat down on Rhaegar. The way Aerys burned them involved Brandon reaching for a sword... but it wasn't ice? It didn't fall into Targaryan hands? Or did it and Eddard got it back when King's Landing fell?
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Oct 21, 2013 03:10
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Ron Jeremy posted:I'm on my first re-read, so spoil me for anything except maybe TWOW chapters which I'm trying to avoid... Rickard probably left it because if he did get captured there was no way he was fighting his way out. Ned brought Ice down because it was presumably safe and welp look what happened.
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Oct 21, 2013 04:03
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computer parts posted:Rickard probably left it because if he did get captured there was no way he was fighting his way out. Ned brought Ice down because it was presumably safe and welp look what happened. Those were two very different journeys to King's Landing, too - Rickard was just popping in to complain about a thing, Eddard was moving half his family there on the assumption that he'd be Hand for quite possibly the rest of either his life or Robert's reign. (Both of which he expected to be considerably longer.)
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Oct 21, 2013 10:08
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I don't think it's every explicitly mentioned in the books, but it doesn't really matter as even if Rickard had brought the sword with him and it was captured it's safe to assume that Robert would have restored it to house Stark, otherwise Ned would have carried it with him to battle and it would have never been lost.. But really I don't think it's ever brought up in the text.
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Oct 21, 2013 10:16
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So everyone thats watched the TV series kept telling me to watch it as well. But I've always had a rule that if its an adaptation from a book that I'd read the books first and I've always had a reading list of books I'm going to read. So it took a while for me to get to these behemoths. I've just finished the first book and I've started on the second and I'm absolutely loving them. Can't believe I never picked them up sooner!
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Nov 17, 2013 13:25
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I made a web based tool that lets you search for terms and phrases in the books. It plots their usage visually. I hope the attached image isn't a spoiler in and of itself. I haven't made it through all the books yet...
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Nov 30, 2013 19:00
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 that's actually really cool, well done
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Nov 30, 2013 19:11
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Dolex posted:I made a web based tool that lets you search for terms and phrases in the books. It plots their usage visually. This is really loving cool.
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Nov 30, 2013 19:37
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Wow, that's really cool. Since someone's gonna do it http://creative-co.de/labs/songicefire/?terms=rape 
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Nov 30, 2013 20:54
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Boiled leather: http://creative-co.de/labs/songicefire/?terms=boiled%20leather
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Dec 1, 2013 02:52
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hmmmm http://creative-co.de/labs/songicefire/?terms=nipples%20on%20a%20breastplate http://creative-co.de/labs/songicefire/?terms=nuncle 
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Dec 1, 2013 03:03
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 I guess book 4 is the coolest book
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Dec 1, 2013 16:15
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 This makes a strong case for the first three books.
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Dec 1, 2013 23:00
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Here you can see as GRRM get more misogynistic as he goes along http://creative-co.de/labs/songicefire/?terms=oval office 
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Dec 2, 2013 01:36
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 http://creative-co.de/labs/songicefire/?terms=fat%20pink%20mast
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Dec 2, 2013 01:42
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Someone had to I guess
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Dec 2, 2013 02:20
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Thinking about Littlefinger: I haven't really been given a satisfactory reason why he masterminds the poisoning of Jon Arryn and kicks off the events of the series. Many folks praise the character for supposedly pulling the strings and getting himself in increasingly advantageous positions but I don't think it survives much investigation. Too many of the developments that happen over the course of the war are events that Littlefinger couldn't have possibly anticipated. Why does Baelish get Lysa to poison Jon Arryn? Well, supposedly to precipitate a war between the North and the South, divide the realm and rise up through the chaos. But if Littlefinger fails to act and lets Arryn and Stannis prove to Robert that his children aren't his own, the same exact thing happens. Robert would likely imprison Cersei and Jaimie, Tywin would rise in revolt, and a war would occur anyway. True, it would be one that the Lannister's would be doomed to lose, but why should that matter to Baelish? He rose up the ranks with Robert as king, and he's not an impatient man. He could wait until Arryn dies naturally to marry Lysa anyway. He simply has no way of knowing that Sansa will be taken captive at King's Landing, or that all the other Stark heirs would be presumed dead. He can't foresee that Renly would die suddenly and the Tyrells could miraculously be courted to the Lannister side. In fact, if not for Stannis' shadow baby, Renly steamrolls Stannis and then steamrolls Kings Landing and Petyr is back to square one, if not worse. He's certainly good on his feet, and he sees openings when they are provided to him (Lysa's affection for him, the Tyrell alliance, Sansa's availability) but so much of simply can't be predicted. So, as good a moment as the ASOS "Oh my god Littlefinger masterminded it all" is, I just don't think it makes all that much sense. I almost feel like who poisoned Arryn was something GRRM was ambivalent on, and despite everything making sense for the Lannisters to do it, inserted Littlefinger there for another cool moment at the end of ASOS.
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Dec 2, 2013 07:26
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Killing Arryn lets him further manipulate Lysa into marrying him while weakening the powerbase in KL considerably. He has no amazing gift of perfect future knowledge of how events will play out, but a monstrous level of indifferent cruelty to everyone that isn't him. Grooming Sansa is just a bonus. Helping Robert might have won him a title or two, but that's nothing compared to becoming the most important man in the Vale. A region that hasn't been touched by the war, is easily defended(aside from the lurking threat of Tyrion's hill tribes), and is in a position to trade with Essos during the winter instead of having to depend entirely on stored food. The outcome of the war for the crown is immaterial to his plan. Whoever wins inherits a war torn, starving, and deeply in debt kingdom with no clear path forward. Losing that duel to Brandon Stark made a deeper impact than just the scar.
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Dec 2, 2013 07:50
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Related to that, has Littlefinger ever stated what his endgame is? Or is it just to be a powerful shadow ruler in Westeros? Is he working with Varys and Illyrio?
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Dec 25, 2013 21:39
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No he's not. His only concern is himself and his one sided love.
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Dec 25, 2013 21:52
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Calaveron posted:Related to that, has Littlefinger ever stated what his endgame is? Or is it just to be a powerful shadow ruler in Westeros? Is he working with Varys and Illyrio? When it comes to the titular "Game" Littlefinger likes to just barely get in and play with the arse.
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Dec 25, 2013 21:58
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I'm nearing the end of the fifth book and was browsing a wiki of ice and fire and noticed there was some spoilers on the wiki as to the events of the upcoming sixth book. Did some of it leak or something?
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Mar 4, 2014 16:42
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GRRM read a bunch of chapters in various conventions and a few chapters were released as preview chapters in certain prints of ADWD. Spoiler wise they contain very little information on events past the end of ADWD.
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Mar 4, 2014 16:48
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There was a new paragraph released this past week as well. Not a chapter. A single paragraph. I have to imagine that's his not-so-subtle  to people poking him about how many more years it'll be until the next book's out.
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Mar 5, 2014 00:37
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One of things that struck me in the Rhaenyra Targaryen prequel novella, was that one of the dragons, Sheepstealer, flew off with his rider in secret after they were warned Rhaenyra had ordered them to be killed, never to be seen or heard from again. Could it be possible that he has survived for all these centuries, or had offspring that are still out there somewhere up to the time of the main series? It's left so open-ended that it could well come back into play in book 6 or 7. Would be neat.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:21
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It would be older than Balerion at around 240 years if that was the case.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:34
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It seems to me that Valyria post-Doom would still be a pretty rad place for a dragon to hang out. No humans means nothing that could really kill a dragon, the only problem would be a lack of food, but I would guess there's still fish and crap, plus a dragon can just fly to the edge of the zone and grab some sheep or something. No one would ever know the dragon was there. I want to believe.
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Apr 24, 2014 21:45
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arstan whitebeard is so named because he's white and has a beard. and his arse is tan
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May 7, 2014 22:11
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Joramun posted:One of things that struck me in the Rhaenyra Targaryen prequel novella, was that one of the dragons, Sheepstealer, flew off with his rider in secret after they were warned Rhaenyra had ordered them to be killed, never to be seen or heard from again. Could it be possible that he has survived for all these centuries, or had offspring that are still out there somewhere up to the time of the main series? It's left so open-ended that it could well come back into play in book 6 or 7. Would be neat. I'm still not too sure what Crows Eye out in the Iron Islands is up to. I know he wants to get with Danny but I seriously doubt he expects his brother to be loyal. Even then what exactly does he think the dragon horn will do besides.. call dragons.
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May 15, 2014 02:28
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SnoochtotheNooch posted:I'm still not too sure what Crows Eye out in the Iron Islands is up to. I know he wants to get with Danny but I seriously doubt he expects his brother to be loyal. Even then what exactly does he think the dragon horn will do besides.. call dragons. I guess he may expect his dumb-as-poo poo brother to blow the horn himself and die in the process like the guy who blew it for Euron, or get eaten by dragons at some point, or get shipwrecked, or die a million other ways. I hope not, though, Victarion chapters own.
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May 15, 2014 05:08
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