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HidingFromGoro posted:UK: Kenneth Clarke ready to bring in troops if strikes erupt over privatized prison. Jesus loving hell  G4S are honest-to-badness thugs and murderers, he'd have to make threats like that to make anyone not want to protest the decision.
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Apr 14, 2011 21:25
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poo poo Battlemaster, I remember you telling about that  It's hosed up that everything has come to this.
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Apr 23, 2011 20:09
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BattleMaster posted:Oh yeah, I think I mentioned it in the last Cops on the Beat thread. It seems like the sensible thing to do would be organizing citizens support groups, and encourage people to talk to someone who's not a cop, then. This is so hosed up I can't get my ahead around it..
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Apr 23, 2011 20:37
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I can't speak for the U.S. but here in Denmark regular officers are instructed to be "alert and suspicious" - this involves sussing out citizens just minding their business until you can be sure they're not likely to have been involved in criminal activity - but once that happens, they have to leave you alone. Of course, this is not always the case, particularly with undercover and riot cops.
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Apr 24, 2011 02:46
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An anthropologist friend of mine who travels to SA often related an interesting story to me, of a guy in one of the numbers, who obfuscated his rank and number in order to gain the attention of some magazine or other. It's not sure whether he was transferred or quietly raped/tortured to death on the inside for his transgressions of "Number" law. E: Catchr, let me know if you want more on that story, because she's leaving in a month or so, I should be able to borrow the book with the entire story in!
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May 14, 2011 18:50
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CatchrNdRy posted:I think myself and the rest of the thread would be edified by hearing about those stories! Cool beans, I'll pick it up before she leaves.
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May 14, 2011 21:07
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nm posted:Our governor is a death penalty abolitionist (and actually said so in the debates), fat lot of good that did. Ok, it did one thing http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/28/news/economy/california_death_row/?section=money_latest I am a social anarchist involved in prison reform, and let me tell you that normal people help us out all the time when they realize that no "normal" people are going to do anything but uphold the abuse inherent in the prison system. Not trying to sound like a stupid teenager or anything, but the alternative is getting less normal by the day..
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May 15, 2011 00:00
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joat mon posted:Let's not be silly. While you won't find that in either The Wealth of Nations or in the 1844 Manuscripts, both Socialist and Capitalist nations have prisons. Again, I'm involved in anarchist prisoner solidarity work, and I can tell you that there's a lot of anarchist thought on prisons that could largely abolish them. If you think anarchist societies cannot be larger than one person, you need to read up because it is absolute nonsense. While I personally don't think we can get rid of them completely, devotion to mediation, rehabilitation and right to work would make it a whole other institution than we know of today. E: Friend agreed to scan the pages from her interview book about that numbers guy when she has time off, so I should have it soon. Tias fucked around with this message at 13:04 on May 24, 2011 |
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May 24, 2011 12:59
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Correct me if I am wrong, but there has never been an actual proven statistical study of people choosing to commit crimes just to be able to go into the "relative" care of prison right? It has definitely happened here in Denmark recently, but it is as much a product of extreme youth subcultural viewpoints (biker gangs, radical politicized activists etc.) that think that jail time is both a "scar"* and an acceptable way to spend time for you and your friends. It is course pretty macho, and while our prisons are much better places to spend time, a lot of people (particularly LBGT, women, children and elderly) enter the system only to find that it wasn't as cool as they thought it would be. *fake edit: badge of honour would be more correct. Not sure how to translate it.
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May 30, 2011 15:18
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Alhazred posted:Not an actual proven statistical study, but I have heard stories about people choosing to commit crime to get jail time. Either because they were so institutionalized that they couldn't cope with life outside prison or because they were homeless and winter was approaching. This definitely happens all over the world, but a study as such has not been made to my knowledge.
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May 30, 2011 16:27
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Yes and no.. People from my town, Copenhagen, see the time spent inside itself as credibility. You're not going to be able to point to a physical scar (though comrades often have those as well, either from an injury gotten by accident inside or police brutality prior to their original arrest), but if it is well-known that you have spent time as a felon (or what corresponds to a felony, here), you are seen as a kind of hero because you took one for your group. Does that make sense? I'm dead tired and English isn't my first language.
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May 30, 2011 22:30
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We're nearing that states some places in northern europe, and by all accounts things are worse some places in the states, so perhaps? I know nothing about the U.S. school system apart from hearsay, sorry.
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Jun 2, 2011 18:11
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It's still labor, and a form of such that is coached in manipulative terms so real "people" don't have to volunteer. I'd side with you, but prison labor being what it is, we're seeing another form of slavery here.
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Jun 3, 2011 21:16
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'civilization' is words, and we use words to conceal our evil. No way the people who make the laws give a poo poo about age as long as it's not rich white kids that get shafted.
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Jun 10, 2011 18:47
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This is getting to be a problem all over the world, particularly as terror laws curtail civil liberties. They can basically "mold" your conviction to do what seems the most useful at them at the time.. At least here in Denmark there is no reason why you shouldn't just rob the poo poo out of banks and shoot cops, as you now get charged worse for just obstructing their work or committing peaceful acts of civil disobedience 
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Jun 20, 2011 21:10
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Not necessarily, but their plants aren't usually this complex or sympathetic, so I'm going to assume he's earnest, really.
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Jun 20, 2011 21:51
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I'm really happy you explained the divide between social background and conscious wrongdoing, Fatkraken! (E: and better than I could, too!) My parents and most of my family are both psychically ill and alcoholics. I've broken the law more times than I have hairs on my head, and at long last I can keep track of what I do on purpose, and what is a consequence of my upbringing. Thankfully I live in evil commie Scandinavia, so all I ever got was a slap on the wrist..
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Jun 26, 2011 15:34
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Andropov posted:There is no divide. Human beings do not possess any autonomy of their own as we live in a deterministic universe. "Free will" is a nonsensical concept. This is a totally different debate, however. If you don't get that exposure to criminal and/or abuse in a young child will automatically lead to behavioural problems as an adult I don't know what to tell you. Seriously, I cannot see how you can hold that position without having an extremely drat sheltered existence.
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Jun 26, 2011 16:06
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jettisonedstuff posted:Please stop feeding the troll and ruining the thead, guys. This. I don't think anything constructive will come of it. An update on my Numbers Gang project: The girl I know that travels a lot in S. Africa and has the book on the subject has left town because she's moving, but I just wanted to say that I'm still working on getting a full copy of the story.
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Jun 26, 2011 16:24
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lovely news. I'm spreading this all over Denmark as much as I can, we're already happily imprisoning way more people than our facilities can hold, and the ruling parties are pondering if it'd be a good idea to let (noted mass murderering multi private corporations) G4S and Securitas run private prisons on Danish soil.
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Jul 8, 2011 19:20
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I know. But even the conservatives are railing against VKO, they've lied about nearly everything, and are giving us a dystopian 40K deathocracy instead of the liberal conservative democracy they promised before getting into office. The social democrats suck, but it can only get better from here.
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Jul 8, 2011 19:30
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Mister Macys posted:Not sure if it's changed since the Conservative Party started running the country again in '06, but in Canada, you're entitled to (free) sex changes, can vote, and can have a Wiccan priest come by, if that's your religion. This has been commonplace in Denmark since at least 2007, dude. But it sounds like you're getting ahead, two thumbs up!
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Jul 11, 2011 19:39
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I've looked into it some, and it does appear to be pretty equally spread. But that said, it's not possible to make an analysis all groups will agree too, because A) The soviet union was extremely ethnically diverse, so it's hard to single out a majority to make the case for "targeting" jews, arabs, tadjiks etc. and B) It is pretty clear that the Stalin-era Soviet Union had no real ethnic bias, in comparison to many other modern nations or empires they had no compunction jailing members of the largest ethnic groups if they were considered ideological or political enemies.
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Jul 15, 2011 17:00
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Hell yes. This needs to be spread as far as possible!
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Jul 17, 2011 17:15
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I know it will be hard, but.. well, would we rather that our fellow men and women suffer horribly forever? It's not like sensible and kind people are not coming to blows with the state already.
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Jul 19, 2011 10:25
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drat, it's all sorts of seeing people in the Utøya/Oslo bombing thread call for reinstating the death penalty and subjecting Breivik to all sorts of torture. It's really good we don't roll like that in Scandinavia, yet anyway..
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Jul 26, 2011 09:17
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It's not that uncommon. I'm from Denmark that has roughly the same judicial mindset as Norway (though the level of punishment in our sentences are through the roof in comparison), and we're the world leader in use of isolation facilities.
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Jul 26, 2011 13:20
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Took some time off reading this thread, got back in, immediately got sick to the heart. Seriously, we've reached the point where even releasing all prisoners, them killing everyone else, and re-evolving into a humane society probably wouldn't be bad odds at reform
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Mar 12, 2012 12:10
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eSports Chaebol posted:I know that in some states if not states, children convicted as adults are sent to normal prisons, and when these prisons lack adequate protective custody arrangements (which pretty much all of them do due to overcrowding), they just put the kids into solitary confinement. The people responsible for this should hang. There can't be anything less than complete apathy towards other human beings behind something so completely hosed. Can there?
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Jun 17, 2013 17:53
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Main Paineframe posted:This is exactly the mindset that leads to juvenile offenders being tried as adults and thrown in prison for life in the first place! People feel that someone who could commit a violent crime at such a young age is irredeemably inhuman and might as well just be locked up forever. A lot of the reasons that people value children over adults tend to be invalidated once the kid intentionally causes major harm to someone - suddenly they're no longer innocents who have their whole lives ahead of them, they become monsters whose lives are tainted by evil, and then no one gives a poo poo whether they live or die anymore. Hey now, I had a bad day and overreacted. I've been in this thread for quite a while, and I understand perfectly well that dehumanizing people won't lead anywhere good. That said, I do underestand people who survive the system and end up hating it.
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Jun 18, 2013 15:20
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MechPlasma posted:I never got why most places don't give former criminals back their voting rights. If you're taking an approach that anyone can become reformed, and you want to encourage reformation as much as possible, then why prevent them from having basic civil rights? That's not going to make people feel welcomed back to society at all! I'm sorry if this is either stupid or obvious (non-US citizen, and not so acquinted with the politics), but isn't it because a new group of voters with prison background could launch and support a candidate running on prison reform? I may be jaded, but if this thread has taught me anything, it's that US politicians are more interested in their gravy trains than welcoming 'criminals' back into society.
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Jul 30, 2013 08:07
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This thread should have established enough times that innocent people get jailed - you're creating a slave class here.
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Jul 30, 2013 15:03
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MechPlasma posted:Alright, I'll bite: what makes you think the police or government is out to get black men? Because the police aren't stupid. They're petty, corrupt, racist, and incompetent in a number of ways, but they rarely charge people out of ignorance. Wrongful conviction = police misconduct, simple as that.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:29
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That's why I wrote charge, hotshot. E: And wrongful convictions can of course come about because of a bad judge or what have you, but that doesn't change the fact that cops routinely detain people for things they didn't do, and then lie to keep the fix in.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:34
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Here in Denmmark it's more "wow, you looking at me wrong son?!" and a massive loving beatdown. And they always, always, make sure to break your phones and cameras by accident.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:40
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Warchicken posted:People in positions of strength will always vilify those in positions of weakness, and they'll always have a justification for it. Try and reduce any cruelty down and you'll wind up there eventually. Human beings just like to feel strong and in control and sometimes hurting other people is the easiest way to do that. No, people in illegitimate positions of strength will do that, because they need to keep other parties hurt, destitue, incarcerated etc. - if you are where you are because you've done people a lot of good, and they trust you because you deserve it, you don't really have to.
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Jul 31, 2013 14:55
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You're not doing good, if you let others do the crime for you, are you now? I know the real world is a lot more Boardwalk Empire than we'd like to believe, but I don't think all positions of strength = abuse or vilification of others.
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Jul 31, 2013 15:54
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I still think a convict party is viable. But then, I don't know a lot about US politics.. It just seems to be that outlawing prisons for profit, separating private sectors and incarceration, and removing mandatory minimum sentences would go a long way.
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Aug 5, 2013 11:55
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This is all sorts of hosed up: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/transgender-16-year-old-solitary-cell-adult-prison
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May 24, 2014 18:52
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Sure, everything has interest.
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May 25, 2014 11:48
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