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Thanks to the GBS Prison thread, I got interested in the whole Criminal Justice System issue. Since then, i often steer the conversation when i talk to my dad about the Criminal Justice System. We live in Canada, but it's no reason not to talk about America. Especially when every 2 week or so, there's something in the news that's great proof of how ridiculous punishment-based Criminal Justice is. He was, sadly, nonplussed when I told him the implications of that new law refusing pardons to violent and sexual offenders. Today, we went to see a movie (Piche: Entre Ciel et Terre), a biopic about an airline pilot who saved a whole 300 people through his quick thinking and nerves of steel. When he was a younger pilot, he did some drug trafficking and moved some pot from Jamaica to the US and got caught in Georgia, where he was sent to Prison. The scenes in prison were sort of accurate, I guess. It allowed me to tell him about Prison gang and the real power they have, both inside and outside. It allowed me tell him about how prison rape and race wars are implicitly condoned by the guards, the justice system and the American people. When I gave him the statistics, the fact that 1% of Americans are behind bars, that 25% of people behind bars are Americans, that 1 in 31 adults are under the eye of the department of Corrections, he was quick to tell me how skeptical he was. To him, it was impossible that America could have a recidivism rate around 50%, house 25% of the world's inmates and that the incarceration rates are growing, it made no sense to him that so many Americans were behind bars and he was quick to point that it was impossible, they'd run out of people to put behind bars. I had to show him actual graphs and sources before he believed me. Not sure if i completely changed his mind, when i talk to him about it, he usually gets a bit grumpy. i guess it's natural, he actually wrote letters to political prisoners, donated to Amnesty international, when he was younger. Like many others, he just turns around. I think this thread and the ones before really did help change at least 2 minds, mine and my dad's. Keep it up.
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Jul 26, 2010 05:44
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Edit: Disregard this.
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Jul 26, 2010 05:53
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Guys, there's no forced prison labor. They always have a choice. Either they accept to clean up dangerous chemicals with no training and substandard equipment or all their good time is erased and they're back at square one. No one forces them to stop being lazy leeches on society. Sheesh.
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Jul 26, 2010 18:21
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mew force shoelace posted:Forced labor of prisoners is explicitly constitutional. Like it's one of the few things the constitution goes out of it's way to be all "yeah, you can do this" in the 13th amendment. Wow, really? How can slavery not be considered "Cruel and unusual punishment"? Edit: Would it be possible for an amendment to be passed withholding first amendment rights from Muslims, for example? Do new amendments overrule older ones?
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Jul 26, 2010 18:37
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Zeitgueist posted:I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the 8th Amendment is basically a joke in the United States, in all aspects. It's not a big surprise. That's the amendment against cruel and unusual punishment, right? (Not american)
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Jul 26, 2010 18:56
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Sylink posted:Yet another factor in the rising prison population is the increase in imprisonment of those with untreated mental illnesses. "Look at what they do in Canada, they leave them unchecked and let the behead people in buses. Is that what you want to see in America? That's what I thought  "Seriously, though, anyone remember that Greyhound beheading case? It made me pretty angry when the mother of the victim went on the news and tearfully asked why the government didn't lock up every schizophrenic permanently. This thread should include stuff from Canada as well, like the new law preventing violent offenders and sexual offenders from getting pardons after the 5 year period (to prevent a notorious murderer from getting her pardon. She's out of jail, stayed out of trouble for 5 years and she's cheated out of her right for a normal life.)
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Jul 26, 2010 20:15
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mew force shoelace posted:In California the governor has to sign every parole but once someone on parole raped a baby or something scary like that so for decades they just refuse to sign any ever. Parole board goes through all the work of checking someone for release, prisoners go through all the stuff to earn good behavior and then pretty much every single one gets flat out rejected because no one wants to sign off on someone that goes on to kill again. So, the net result is that everyone has to do their entire sentence at the very least?
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Jul 26, 2010 20:50
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DynamicSloth posted:Yes this was pretty much the definition of a Bill of attainder against Homolka and really should have been disallowed. Homolka certainly shiouldn't have been walking the streets after 5 years but that was a function of her original plea bargain, destroying the pardon system and making it impossible for many parolees to find employment for a decade or so after there release is just a nasty side effect. You're kidding me, right? They're really trying to fix the "statistics make us look bad" thing by making it harder to get statistics? Please tell me this is a joke.
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Jul 26, 2010 23:03
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DynamicSloth posted:Would that I could, the Head of Statistics Canada just resigned in protest last week. This country of mine seems worse and worse to me every day. 
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Jul 26, 2010 23:21
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HappyHippo posted:Was there even a significant chance of her getting the pardon? Yep, she stayed out of trouble for 5 years after doing her sentence without a hitch. There was no reason to withhold the pardon. That's why they got that law passed. It was literally just to gently caress her over because she's an infamous murderer/rapist. A murderer/rapist who repaid her debt to society by all all means, but we can't let that get in the way of justice. Let me reiterate. They passed a law to prevent offenders convicted of violent or sexual crime from getting pardons because they had no way to prevent a notorious ex-criminal from getting a pardon if she applied. 21stCentury fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jul 27, 2010 |
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Jul 27, 2010 03:48
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The New Black posted:I mean, surely at some point he's got to be held accountable? Holding Law Enforcement accountable for the deaths of criminals is being soft on crime.
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Jul 27, 2010 04:17
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The way I see it, the only people who cannot be "rehabilitated" by the prison system are those who suffer from some mental illness or disorder. You might not be able to rehabilitate someone who went out of a friday night, found some guy and shot him in the face for fun. At least, not the same way you rehabilitate someone who went out on a friday night, found some guy and shot him in the face for money/drugs/status. One of them had did it for clear reasons, the other is just mentally ill. Both of them should have a decent chance to be rehabilitated, just differently. Maybe not everyone can be rehabilitated. That's not a reason to not try. Life sentences should be reserved exclusively to the minority of offenders who flatly refuse to do anything, and they should still have the chance to try if they change their mind. Of course, doing so would mean  murderers and drug traffickers and rapists could get out of jail.I don't think it'll ever happen. I'm in a small minority who believe we should forgive murderers when they've done their time. Even Karla Homolka.
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Jul 29, 2010 16:39
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angry armadillo posted:Too soft in that you hear stories about cons saying 'yeah i just steal stuff in winter because I'm not sure where I will be staying, it will be warmer in prison so I'll do something to go there for a bit' So basically, being fed, having shelter and being warm is too desireable? Or are you saying prison should offset the good things with bad things, ie enforced prison rape and beatings?
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Aug 1, 2010 00:21
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angry armadillo posted:There are charities that will help you find someone to live, for example https://www.shelter.org.uk What's nuts is that you actually don't understand that good rehabilitation would mean even those who only steal to get convicted would be able to go out and become productive members of society when they get out. Certainly better than deciding not to feed or shelter convicts.
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Aug 1, 2010 01:30
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angry armadillo posted:I didn't ever say don't feed or shelter convicts. There aren't a lot of ways to make prison seem worse than being homeless during winter. My point is, with good enough rehabilitation, everyone would have the tools needed to get gainful employment, somewhere to live and the will to keep living within the law.
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Aug 1, 2010 03:57
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Toasticle posted:In case I haven't been clear: Nobody gives a poo poo unless it happens to them or their friends/family. Well, i give a poo poo and I don't know anyone who's ever had a real brush with the law. I have this thread to thank for that. I think it goes to show that while very few people give a poo poo, it's not impossible to change minds.
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Aug 1, 2010 18:02
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Fire posted:DnD/LF/Smart People response: "Fuuuuuuck I don't know about you, but I think all 3 of those are easy to refute. "Can't do the time, don't do the crime" -> 8th Amendment, Bill of Rights, Human's rights. All of those point towards stuff like Prison rape, denied healthcare, assault, etc. as being wrong. "I don't believe this, there is no way that's real. Police are good people, they wouldn't do that. Why do you hate the police so much?" -> Police are humans, they're flawed. Point to any police corruption case . "Well at least that will never happen to me, that only happens to people who break the law and I would never get in that position in the first place." -> Point to any wrongful conviction case, the fact that Prosecutors often care about nothing but having a perfect conviction rating or that video by that lawyer about why you shouldn't talk to police because of how the system works. And yet, people don't seem to be willing to change. I think talking about it more can only help. I know I'm getting to my dad about this all.
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Aug 1, 2010 21:16
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people should be rioting in the streets!" 
OR "Well at least that will never happen to me, that only happens to people who break the law and I would never get in that position in the first place." 
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mew force shoelace posted:It absolutely happens, so no need to link me a counterexample, but in general wrongful convictions are more rarely towards random middle class white people. In that way I think people have a weird "yeah but he was bad anyway" escape clauses in their brain towards people getting wrongfully convicted. Yeah, you're kinda right... But not everyone who thinks "it'll never happen to me, I follow the law" agree that poor people/black people/hispanic people deserve to be jailed. Those who do are about racism/classism and that's a different issue. Different from Justice, I mean. But yes, Racism/Classism is deeply linked with the mess that's happening. Edit: Still, that video from that lawyer (or was he an ex policeman?) that explains how easy it is to be incriminated/break obscure laws. One of the points to pass through is that most people are guilty of something. Even those in the middle class.
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Aug 1, 2010 21:30
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mew force shoelace posted:I don't think it's rational but I think the sense is that people who get wrongly put in jail weren't the nicest people to begin with, and honestly that may well be true. America loves 'any punishment for any crime" in general. So if a drug addict gets thrown in prison for a murder he didn't commit, it's pretty much okay to a lot of people. It's seen as a minor injustice. you're missing my point again. My point is that you should tell whoever uses the argument of "I obey the law, it could never happen to me" that wrongful conviction could happen to anyone. Even them. i'm aware of the Just World Syndrome or whatever it's called.
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Aug 1, 2010 22:58
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The New Black posted:I swear part of the problem here is popular culture. Our screens and books are full of noble, honest, responsible cops who solve important crimes and are understanding with witnesses, and if they ever meet the occasional bent cop they expose them and all is well. There just seems to be a total disconnect to reality, which I imagine to be somewhere between the Wire and Bad Lieutenant: New Orleans. No to mention how the importance of cops is very polarized. Most people either love every cop with their undying love or they hate them to the point of advocating their murder. Not a whole lot of middle ground it seems.
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Aug 2, 2010 04:43
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Are you aware that if inmates were treated like humans instead of animals that need to be broken, you'd probably have a lot less trouble with inmates who file frivolous lawsuits and fake dying to stab a guard? Plus, I'm no expert, but I would think that frivolous lawsuits and inmates faking death to stab a guard aren't good reasons to leave inmates hanging when they're raped or dying.
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Aug 3, 2010 16:49
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Eyeshitinyourserial, I understand that official policy is not to let inmates die off from asthma attacks or have their complaints of being raped by guards be dismissed summarily, but it doesn't stop the fact that these things happen. The fact that they happen at all is unforgivable. Maybe it didn't happen where you worked, maybe you worked somewhere where there genuinely wasn't any guard-condoned prison rape and where no one was left to die from internal bleeding in their cell. It doesn't prove it never happens. The fact is, that stuff happens. i don't think you can deny it happens too often. One female inmate being raped to death and no one being punished is already far beyond acceptable. And it happens pretty dang often in America.
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Aug 3, 2010 23:09
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Actually, I'll have to agree that "unforgiveable" is way overblown. But I don't think it's merely "unfortunate" when you realize that this lead to putting the American Prison System on the UN's Human's Rights' watchlist. Just because there's a lot of violence behind bars isn't really a good reason to disregard the treatment of inmates. Of course there's a good chance that putting a lot of violent people under the same roof will lead to squabbles, but treating them like animals, disenfranchising them and making drat sure to tell them that they're worthless certainly doesn't help. But yeah, maybe the facility you worked for was decent, there's still a hell of a lot wrong with the system as a whole.
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Aug 4, 2010 06:03
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Rutibex posted:Or the man who steals car stereos getting 10 years when the banker who steals billions gets 3? Then again, i wonder, what does a banker have to gain or give back to society that needs him in prison? A Banker who steals billions and is found out is pretty hosed. What does jail time do to him? Then again, I guess this doesn't work if the American Criminal Justice System is officially punitive and not rehabilitative, but I still wonder, where do white collar criminals go in a rehabilitative prison system?
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Aug 9, 2010 17:56
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mew force shoelace posted:Please explain what jail time does for anyone that bankers should be a unique case? I'm not saying Bankers should be a unique case. I'm saying that White Collar criminals don't really fit in a rehabilitation-based criminal justice system like, say, murderers or burglars. Let's say you murdered someone, you might have mental issues or got involved in a gang. Let's say you're a burglar or a drug dealer? What you did is probably motivated by how easy it seemed to steal/deal drugs rather than get a job with the limited skills you have. This can be fixed in a rehabilitative institution, somewhere that gives you the tools needed to integrate into society. White collar criminals, Bankers and Ponzi schemers, they don't do it because they need money, they do it because they want absurd amounts of money. It's not something that can be "fixed" since it's something that has to be planned long beforehand. What they're doing is wrong, but it's not motivated by lack of ressources. So in a country with a good rehabilitative justice system, where do white collar criminals go and why?
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Aug 9, 2010 19:00
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chelsea clinton posted:If you're a risk-seeking crazy who wants billions when you already have millions you probably need some kind of psychiatric care. People don't require rehabilitation because they are violent as such or in need of money, they do it because their behaviour is bad. Non-violent behaviour can also be bad! Wait, so Criminals need rehabilitation because their behavior is Bad? So, what is rehabilitation for you? I mean, do you treat every criminal the same way since they're all the same thing (criminals)?
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Aug 9, 2010 19:27
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I'm expressing myself pretty spectacularly terribly today. What I'm trying to say is, I don't really see how you can rehabilitate people guilty of high caliber white collar crimes, like the "the banker who steals billions gets 3 [years]". So i'm wondering what you wonderful people think should be done with white collar criminals in a rehabilitative justice system, since i have little trouble imagining what would be done with gang members, burglars and murderers. I'm not saying white collar criminals need to go uncorrected as much as i don't see where they fit in a purely rehabilitative system.
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Aug 9, 2010 20:29
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I guess I misunderstand how a rehabilitative system works, then. I believed the point of the rehabilitative system was to give people the tools to reintegrate society properly. In other words, skills that would lead to gainful employment without resorting to illegal activities in addition to counseling and possibly psychiatric treatment. but i guess it's true that the second half of that should work for rich and poor regardless.
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Aug 9, 2010 20:42
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Wait, so you disagree that if someone embezzled 1 million dollars, they should pay back 1 million? I don't think it's poetic justice... It's just taking away what was stolen from the thief.
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Aug 10, 2010 17:25
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Sir John Falstaff posted:But then, neither have the previous administrations, so it's still a step forward, even if a tiny one. Yeah, but it's not the step to take first. It's like stepping inside your house before opening your door. They're both things you need to do, but you need to do them in the right order, otherwise you'll hit your face on the door. If you don't stop the prison rape, desegregating HIV positive inmates will do a lot more harm than good.
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Aug 15, 2010 00:27
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HidingFromGoro posted:This includes Haiti earthquake refugees who were mistakenly brought to the US by military relief planes- and then subsequently sent directly into jail for lack of visas. Wow, i read about the ICE Castles in this thread (or the LF one), but jailing Haiti refugees as soon as they're off the plane? What the gently caress? Am I misunderstanding something? Were they stowaways who illegally got onto american military planes or were they told to get on the plane by some official, only to be jailed on arrival? It's baffling, why would they fly in Haitians just to jail them in secret prisons? Aren't those "ICE castle" publicly funded? Is someone getting a bonus for thinking up that scheme?
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Aug 21, 2010 15:40
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Deleuzionist posted:If illegal immigrants are jailed because it's profitable * then detaining people who have little means of challenging their detainment is a masterstroke of an idea on how to expand the labour pool with minimum costs, something that Arizona businessmen seem to have figured out*. As long as a country takes refugees no one asks what happens to them, and bonding them into legal slavery isn't even a far-fetched idea considering the historical scope of US complicity in Haiti's lack of functioning institutions, the devastation of its domestic trade, and deplorable human rights violations. Okay, now... I'm just speechless. This is plain horrible.
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Aug 22, 2010 16:56
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Lykourgos posted:Do you have statistics on how often defense attorneys attempt to suppress incriminating evidence? Though my only expertise in law comes from Phoenix Wright, I would assume that in criminal cases, the Defense Attorney can't really gain access to the evidence, whereas the prosecutor could.
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Sep 6, 2010 02:36
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HidingFromGoro posted:Perhaps even more disturbingly, there is a movement to implement the kind of isolation and physical restraint used in these programs within schools- a practice which has provably resulted in the deaths of children as young as age 7. Wait, what? Are you talking about, like, school programs for disturbed teens or are you talking using prison tactics in the public school system? On non-criminal, children?
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Sep 12, 2010 05:26
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mew force shoelace posted:That wouldn't make sense. The felony conviction would be there either way so it would be exactly equally damaging in that respect but then prison also does thing like torture people, given them huge gaps in employment, integrate them into gangs, ect. Yeah, but where Prison puts you in a "prison mindset", the felony charge makes you unable to get out of the prison mindset, thus bringing you back to prison.
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Sep 12, 2010 14:42
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mew force shoelace posted:Huh? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I am saying that even a terrible program will have better results than a prison stay because prison is ruinous. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I'm saying that prison is ruinous and worsened by the terrible programs already in place.
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Sep 12, 2010 14:53
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I'm relieved that the bill got passed. I was under the impression it was a bill to introduce solitary confinement in schools... But i don't know what's worse, that so many people were against making those illegal, or that they were used at all in schools... Are Americans really in the mindset that schools are prisons for kids first and educational second?
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Sep 12, 2010 20:49
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I first read about the WWASP facilities in an article about it a couple years ago. I was completely horrified at the idea of putting children in what basically amounts to a jail without going through any legal channels. I was horrified at the thought that someone was actually making money off jailing and mistreating children, and that it was implicitly seen as a good thing in America. Back then, I wasn't aware of the state of the American Penal System, but i knew it was wrong to profit from it. The fact that these facilities exists is chilling because it sets a precedent: It's okay to jail non-criminals if you pay money for it. And yet not only is there an industry, but one that actually thrives off those poor rich people with out-of-control teenagers. Nothing screams "Rich People Problems are most important" more than the existence of the WWASP. An organization you can pay to abduct your children in the night and lock them away for a couple years.
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Sep 14, 2010 02:33
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You know, I'd say that the only thing that's done differently in the United States to account for "truely sociopathic monsters" is, ironically, how criminals are treated. There's something a bit backwards about a system that's the only one that can contain monsters if it's also the only system that can make them. Heck, even if you agree with that, most cases in which "truely sociopathic monsters" are put in the system aren't a product of the prison system.
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Sep 17, 2010 20:40
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Domini Cane posted:There is a book called "On Killing" by an army head shrinker named Lt. Col. David Grossman and he makes a compelling argument that American culture is unique with regard to how violence and criminality. The primary premise of the books is that man is hardwired to not kill other men. Additionally, men can be taught to kill other men through a combination of factors for purposes of military and law enforcement. However, the same techniques used by the military are being adopted by entertainment to enable children to lose their value for human life and become more violent. Well, aside from the disproven and ludicrous link between criminality and violent video games, there's also the fact that just north of the border, Canada lies without any serious crime problems, without a completely hosed up prison system and with a sociopathic monsters. Serial killers and such. I mean, I agree that there are a lot of differences in attitudes between America and Canada, but i disagree that american culture can create "worse criminals" than those found in Canada. More criminals? Sure. Worse criminals? Criminals that can only be contained in prisons where they are completely isolated from any and all human contact? Criminals that can only be tamed by putting them in a "rape or be raped" situation? JLWOP in America isn't justified in the least. JLWOP is done only to make money and convince voters that you're tough on crime. It doesn't protect anyone, it doesn't save anyone and it doesn't help anyone.
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Sep 18, 2010 03:17
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