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M_Gargantua posted:Snape grew up a friend of Lily's. Sure he eventually grew into a huge Jerk over his years at Hogwarts and subsequent years as a deatheater, but he still had his love of Lily that had grown for years. The moment Lily is threatened Snape Snape is the worst.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:47
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Snape wasn't born evil or I'd argue was even a jerk when he entered Hogwarts. I don't see why his later actions should invalidate his younger self. Besides, you can love someone and still be a bad person. The world isn't broken up into good people and death eaters.
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Mar 19, 2015 14:58
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People hated the pope because he was forced into the Hitler Youth. Genuinely wanting to replace the British government with a wizard-run dictatorship in a violent coup should totally invalidate the fact that he was a cute kid. Normally I hate Nazi analogies because they are so cheap, but the Death Eaters wanted to kill or enslave every non-pureblood in the world, they actually wanted to do something with a Hitlerian level of violence, hatred, and scale. Snape wasn't a hero, he was the right hand man of the greatest evil to ever exist in the wizarding world.
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Mar 19, 2015 15:08
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TheModernAmerican posted:People hated the pope because he was forced into the Hitler Youth. Genuinely wanting to replace the British government with a wizard-run dictatorship in a violent coup should totally invalidate the fact that he was a cute kid. Normally I hate Nazi analogies because they are so cheap, but the Death Eaters wanted to kill or enslave every non-pureblood in the world, they actually wanted to do something with a Hitlerian level of violence, hatred, and scale. Snape wasn't a hero, he was the right hand man of the greatest evil to ever exist in the wizarding world. Dumbledore wanted to do that too. He literally had a crush on Wizard Hitler in fact. I mean Dumbledore's a pretty big poo poo too but still.
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Mar 19, 2015 15:15
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Yes, Dumbledore conspired to make a child fight said greatest evil of all time, and was therefore also a completely insane jackass. The only good adult in the whole series was Narcissa.
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Mar 19, 2015 15:51
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TheModernAmerican posted:People hated the pope because he was forced into the Hitler Youth. Genuinely wanting to replace the British government with a wizard-run dictatorship in a violent coup should totally invalidate the fact that he was a cute kid. Normally I hate Nazi analogies because they are so cheap, but the Death Eaters wanted to kill or enslave every non-pureblood in the world, they actually wanted to do something with a Hitlerian level of violence, hatred, and scale. Snape wasn't a hero, he was the right hand man of the greatest evil to ever exist in the wizarding world. Snape is Rowling's Gollum-equivalent. He's a bad person and a jackass but he exists for the narrative purpose of demonstrating that even horrible, evil people can sometimes do good things and you shouldn't just write them off completely.
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Mar 19, 2015 16:01
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TheModernAmerican posted:People hated the pope because he was forced into the Hitler Youth. Genuinely wanting to replace the British government with a wizard-run dictatorship in a violent coup should totally invalidate the fact that he was a cute kid. Normally I hate Nazi analogies because they are so cheap, but the Death Eaters wanted to kill or enslave every non-pureblood in the world, they actually wanted to do something with a Hitlerian level of violence, hatred, and scale. Snape wasn't a hero, he was the right hand man of the greatest evil to ever exist in the wizarding world. I wasn't saying that you should excuse Snapes actions because he an okay kid. I'm saying you can't retroactively say Snape was always evil because he became a bad person later on. It was his choices that brought him there, not some default way he was born. This is a pretty important theme of the series... Most of the series characters aren't played in two dichtomy black/white situation, except for Voldemort which is why he's the most boring character of the series, imho. ashez2ashes fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 17:09
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Piell posted:Snape is the worst. You can't one line of the most important moments of his character. He went to Dumbledore before Lily was killed. He didn't tell his boss not to kill her and then flip sides once she was dead. The death eaters were the closest thing Severus had for friends and he betrayed them all as soon as Lily was in danger. Snape still had a heart. This doesn't absolve him of his other horrible qualities but its a definitive example of how objectively bad people can still have good in them (Eg Vader) and can still find hope.
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Mar 19, 2015 18:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Snape is Rowling's Gollum-equivalent. He's a bad person and a jackass but he exists for the narrative purpose of demonstrating that even horrible, evil people can sometimes do good things and you shouldn't just write them off completely. Kreacher is the direct Gollum equivalent, a creature who has been twisted by the circumstances around him but who Gandalf/Dumbledore thinks should be pitied and treated with respect, and who ends up doing good in the end (and helping the "masters" that finally treat them with kindness and dignity). Snape is a full blown redemption arc, and it is weird that people chalk up everything he did later in his life to simple revenge. Like it was pretty reprehensible that he told Dumbledore he didn't really care if James or Harry died and just wanted to save Lilly, and Dumbledore was appropriately disgusted with him at the time. But a lot of the actions he took later in life were obviously not directed at simple getting revenge on Voldemort for killing her. If that was the case he wouldn't have been pissed at Dumbledore when he found out Harry had to "die at the right time" to defeat Voldemort. Hell, for the Snape you guys are describing, that would have been killing two birds with one stone! He could have even let Quirrell kill Harry in year one, this would have exposed Quirrell basically immediately and foiled Voldemort's plot. Like I said he is a total dick. But being a jerkass and being an irredeemable evil murderer are different things.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:39
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You also need to consider that even while Voldemort was gone Snape was still deep undercover and acting as such. He was constantly around the children of former death eaters and expected Voldemort to come back eventually. He couldnt start being nice teacher to all of the traitors and mud bloods cuz that would ruin his cover. Granted I think he used the cover as an excuse for his personality flaws and biases, but the fact remains that he was playing a role flawlessly for over a decade and that if he would have ever faltered the tiniest bit not only would he have been killed but the entire order may have fallen as well. I still think Snape is a dick, but not evil.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:41
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He could have acted the role by favoring slytherins and death eater kids while also not being horribly abusive to other students. Voldemort treats Neville better than Snape does.
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Mar 19, 2015 21:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Snape is Rowling's Gollum-equivalent. He's a bad person and a jackass but he exists for the narrative purpose of demonstrating that even horrible, evil people can sometimes do good things and you shouldn't just write them off completely. But the thing is I can write him off completely because the one good thing he did was motivated by a creepy, obsessive, almost stalker-esque attachment to a person he would otherwise hate out of hand due to her heritage (remember that mudblood is a slur that people reacted to with extreme offense, and that Snape worked with and was allied with a revolutionary movement that wanted to have Lily Evan's killed due to her parentage). And this so called good act is tainted because he betrayed the only people he could count as allies because of this of this legitimately insane obsession. This is a dude who hated the son of a guy who was a jerk to him when he was 12 so much that he actively inhibited his academic progress. Imagine that for a loving second, if you met a human being who had a bully in middle school and harbored an intense hatred of a child because he was his son. That's not a bad person who did a good thing that's insane. Sure he didn't kill Harry himself, but if that's the rubric we're using to be a good person now then I guess I am Jesus incarnate.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:27
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TheModernAmerican posted:Sure he didn't kill Harry himself, but if that's the rubric we're using to be a good person now then I guess I am Jesus incarnate. Remember that he owed Harry an inherited life debt, so he literally couldn't kill him.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:37
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Snape being an incredible rear end in a top hat actually works against his cover, because why the gently caress would Dumbledore keep such a lovely teacher around unless he had some secret reason to trust him? I mean, like, the only reason that Snape got off from going to Azkaban is because Dumbledore vouched for him that he wasn't a total bad guy. But his entire actions show him to (at least apparently) still be the exact same Death Eater rear end in a top hat he was before.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:38
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Neville Longbottom's parents were tortured by Death Eaters until they went crazy, and Snape was still the person Neville saw when he faced a Boggart. A Bad Teacher.
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Mar 20, 2015 04:51
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YggiDee posted:Neville Longbottom's parents were tortured by Death Eaters until they went crazy, and Snape was still the person Neville saw when he faced a Boggart. A Bad Teacher. Also he can turn into a Bat! Does that sound like the actions of a Good Guy?
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Mar 20, 2015 05:34
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Piell posted:Snape being an incredible rear end in a top hat actually works against his cover, because why the gently caress would Dumbledore keep such a lovely teacher around unless he had some secret reason to trust him? I mean, like, the only reason that Snape got off from going to Azkaban is because Dumbledore vouched for him that he wasn't a total bad guy. But his entire actions show him to (at least apparently) still be the exact same Death Eater rear end in a top hat he was before. If Snape was the only bad teacher that would make sense, but in a school where bad teachers outnumber good ones it's probably a smart cover.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:58
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bobjr posted:If Snape was the only bad teacher that would make sense, but in a school where bad teachers outnumber good ones it's probably a smart cover. How can Binns be SO loving BAD at his job that he keeps it post mortem? That still annoys me, just so Joanne didn't have to flesh out history much.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:00
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Wittgen posted:Remember that he owed Harry an inherited life debt, so he literally couldn't kill him. I don't think a life debt actually stops you from killing someone/doing whatever, so much as being a kind of "emotional" magic like love. Except I guess love in Harry Potter is some kind of quantifiable force so maybe I'm completely wrong. Basically I think the story reads a lot better if Pettigrew stops choking Harry because he knew Harry saved his life and not because a magic life debt forced him to.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:45
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GodFish posted:I don't think a life debt actually stops you from killing someone/doing whatever, so much as being a kind of "emotional" magic like love. Except I guess love in Harry Potter is some kind of quantifiable force so maybe I'm completely wrong. I mean, Peter owed Harry a life debt and ended up strangling himself with his own hand instead of killing him during Deathly Hallows. Though that could have been a spell Voldemort put on the hand I guess.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:49
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GodFish posted:I don't think a life debt actually stops you from killing someone/doing whatever, so much as being a kind of "emotional" magic like love. Except I guess love in Harry Potter is some kind of quantifiable force so maybe I'm completely wrong. He did. They straight-up say that a moment of mercy is what killed him because Voldemort didn't allow his servants mercy.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:51
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The mercy kills him because Voldemort curses the hand to kill Peter if his loyalty ever wavers again, but the mercy itself should come from Peter and not life debt magic.
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Mar 20, 2015 06:55
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Pidmon posted:How can Binns be SO loving BAD at his job that he keeps it post mortem? That still annoys me, just so Joanne didn't have to flesh out history much. I think the only people who care less about History of Magic than JK Rowling is the staff at Hogwarts. Thus, a ghost teaches.
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Mar 20, 2015 07:12
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Pidmon posted:How can Binns be SO loving BAD at his job that he keeps it post mortem? That still annoys me, just so Joanne didn't have to flesh out history much. He has tenure.  Besides, what would he do with his death if he couldn't keep teaching? Would you make an old ghost teacher like that try to find work somewhere else for the rest of eternity?
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Mar 20, 2015 07:35
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GodFish posted:He has tenure. I like to think they tried to replace him but he kept showing up to teach anyway, continuing to drone over the new hire until the Headmaster just gave up.
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Mar 20, 2015 10:36
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M_Gargantua posted:Snape grew up a friend of Lily's. Sure he eventually grew into a huge Jerk over his years at Hogwarts and subsequent years as a deatheater, but he still had his love of Lily that had grown for years. The moment Lily is threatened Snape throws away all of his friends, power, etc to run to Dumbledore, prostrate himself at his feet, and beg to save her. Not to mention that Snape's love of Lily is why he begged Voldemort to spare her before running to Dumbledore, and that request is what caused Voldemort to pause long enough for Lily to choose to die for her son. Personally I think Snape's love for Lily was also part of the love protecting Harry throughout the series. It says he's a gross obsessive freak who would fit right in at an incel convention. It's a common literary trope that Rowling is dealing in, but they don't reflect the darkness of reality It's really important to remember that he was ok with her kid dying. That's not love, any way you shape it
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Mar 20, 2015 13:25
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Pidmon posted:How can Binns be SO loving BAD at his job that he keeps it post mortem? That still annoys me, just so Joanne didn't have to flesh out history much. It's a school story. Schools in school stories have a bullying teacher and a boring teacher. It's like complaining that the hero of a Western rides a horse.
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Mar 21, 2015 22:44
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Trin Tragula posted:It's a school story. Schools in school stories have a bullying teacher and a boring teacher. It's like complaining that the hero of a Western rides a horse. Alternatively after the Ministry of Magic put down the last Goblin rebellion they realized that letting students have any kind of critical thinking or historical skills was creating sympathizers for racial equality and so the privileged ministry officials and the old pureblood families on the school board gutted the curriculum.
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Mar 22, 2015 00:29
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Remember that Dumbledore doesn't actually have any control over the hiring, that's up to the ministry or some poo poo. Like with Umbridge. Snape is in pretty thick with Lucius who essentially owns a good chunk of the ministry, so that's why he's still there, to the public perception at least.
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Mar 22, 2015 03:07
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The Shortest Path posted:Remember that Dumbledore doesn't actually have any control over the hiring, that's up to the ministry or some poo poo. Like with Umbridge. Snape is in pretty thick with Lucius who essentially owns a good chunk of the ministry, so that's why he's still there, to the public perception at least. No, Dumbledore has control over the hiring. He explicitly lost control over it during the Book 5 period. It was one of the educationa decrees. Even then they went about it in a roundabout way. (The ministry could appoint someone only if a suitable replacement couldn't be found. That was how Dumbledore got to hire the centaur dude.) Dumbledore really abusing his hiring privileges though. Divination, Care of Magical Creatures, DatD, Potions, History of Magic... dude had a loving awful track record for teachers, although I guess he isn't technically responsible for the last one.
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Mar 22, 2015 03:10
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Trin Tragula posted:It's a school story. Schools in school stories have a bullying teacher and a boring teacher. It's like complaining that the hero of a Western rides a horse. I prefer to interact with the series as if Hogwarts was a real place than just going "It's cliche that's why it doesn't matter that people are triggered by the Dursley's abuse" as has happened in this thread previously.
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Mar 22, 2015 03:42
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It was a common rumor that the position was cursed so he had a hell of a time finding defense against the dark arts teachers (according to Pottermore). Anyone actually good at the position would have known to stay the heck away from it.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:28
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ashez2ashes posted:It was a common rumor that the position was cursed so he had a hell of a time finding defense against the dark arts teachers (according to Pottermore). Anyone actually good at the position would have known to stay the heck away from it. IIRC it wasn't even a rumor, Dumbledore flat out says it in book 6. And the point it becomes cursed is when Voldemort is rejected for the position, which is well before he became the dark lord. So you're talking in the area of 30 DatDA teachers before Quirrel even starts in book 1.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:37
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Guy A. Person posted:IIRC it wasn't even a rumor, Dumbledore flat out says it in book 6. And the point it becomes cursed is when Voldemort is rejected for the position, which is well before he became the dark lord. So you're talking in the area of 30 DatDA teachers before Quirrel even starts in book 1. That was such a good moment: "Oh, he definitely wanted defence against the dark arts. The aftermath of our little meeting showed that. You see, no one has been able to hold the defence against the dark arts post for more than a year after I refused to post to Lord Voldemort.
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Mar 22, 2015 09:26
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Dumbledore is that head of the department based off of his brilliant research who doesn't actually care about teaching. No wonder he hired such lovely teachers. His decision to stay at Hogwarts is supposed to be a *noble* one, but he should probably be criticized for not stepping aside so that someone else could hire teachers based off their ability to teach rather than their importance to the Wizarding War (Snape, Slughorn, Trelawney).
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Mar 22, 2015 18:00
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You can definitely see Dumbledore as a man for whom nothing is so important as stopping Voldemort. Here is a man who feels terrible guilt for his past mistakes, all of which resulted from either a) being too easily seduced by power or b) being too absorbed by said guilt to actually fix said mistakes. After Grindlewald's defeat, Dumbledore chooses to be as proactive as possible in standing against any new Dark threats. That solves his inaction problem, and assuages his guilt a little, but he still prefers to keep away from real power and authority so he doesn't become the Dark threat he's trying to prevent. What sort of position should he then take? I can see muggle-newspaper-reading Dumbledore having paid a lot of attention to things like the Hitler Youth, and to the worrying club of potential Dark wizards forming around Voldemort, and especially Voldemort's initial attempt to become DADA teacher under Dippet. Headmaster of Hogwarts, then, is a perfect place for Dumbledore to be - little real power but lots of respect, highly placed in Wizarding society, but most importantly between Voldemort and the entire school-age population of Wizarding Britain. From there he can plot in secret against Voldemort and also guide the current crop of wizarding children away from Voldemort's beliefs. All of dumbledore's subsequent decisions are made with the aim of preventing Voldemort's return / defeating Voldemort, with the secondary aim of making sure the school doesn't produce any new Voldemorts or too many new Death Eaters. Hogwarts is Dumbledore's fortress, and if the students in it have to put up with substandard teaching as a result, then so be it. Most of his choices make a lot of sense in this light: 1) endangers the student body by keeping the Stone hidden behind deadly, indiscriminate traps - terrible educational decision, great tactical one 2) The continued employment of Snape and Trelawney? both vital parts of his anti-Voldemort strategy. Binns? eh, who cares. 3) Triwizard Tournament? excellent for finding new allies against Voldemort, and ensuring the students are a little less xenophobic. Dumbledore notes himself that he hosed up in book 5 by assuming erveryone else was as single-mindedly dedicated to his war as he was. Dumbledore is right when he says that Harry is a much better person than he is. Harry does what he does out of bravery and loyalty and love, whereas dumbledore is a pragmatist through and through. He wants Voldemort DEAD, and the Board of Governors can go hang.
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Mar 22, 2015 21:21
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Pidmon posted:I prefer to interact with the series as if Hogwarts was a real place than just going "It's cliche that's why it doesn't matter that people are triggered by the Dursley's abuse" as has happened in this thread previously. Well, and the reason that schools in school stories have a boring teacher and a bullying teacher is that lots of people have had a teacher at some point who was crap and everyone wondered how they kept their job; and lots of people have had teachers who were assholes to them or others, and even more so if you happened to go to an independent school, where headmasters and headmistresses can pretty much hire who they feel like without them actually having to be any good at teaching. It wouldn't have become a cliche if it wasn't rooted in something recognisable. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Mar 22, 2015 |
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Mar 22, 2015 21:55
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Pidmon posted:"It's cliche that's why it doesn't matter that people are triggered by the Dursley's abuse" The Dursleys were a cartoon and if someone is honestly knocking Rowling for not throwing Petunia through the Veil to appease their inability to recognize absurdity then I don't know how that person has ever read a book. Honestly, they should read A Series of Unfortunate Events, it'd probably give them a panic attack. Baronash fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Mar 22, 2015 |
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Mar 22, 2015 22:09
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Guy A. Person posted:IIRC it wasn't even a rumor, Dumbledore flat out says it in book 6. And the point it becomes cursed is when Voldemort is rejected for the position, which is well before he became the dark lord. So you're talking in the area of 30 DatDA teachers before Quirrel even starts in book 1. I'm really hoping that there's a support group for the Surviving Defense Against the Dark Arts Teachers of Hogwarts...unless there are no survivors of course...  Oh wait, I guess Lockheart could preside...if his memory ever returned Not A Bear fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 03:14
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JohnSherman posted:The Dursleys were a cartoon and if someone is honestly knocking Rowling for not throwing Petunia through the Veil to appease their inability to recognize absurdity then I don't know how that person has ever read a book. For a cartoon they sure are a starkly realistic portrayal of child emotional and physical abuse. Really, people in this thread have no empathy. :I
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Mar 23, 2015 03:42
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