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All I can say is, I have a WHOLE lot of respect for people who can handle primitive breeds. Years ago when I knew literally nothing about dogs (I had grown up with dogs, but apparently that hadn't translated into dog knowledge) I adopted an Akita from a shelter based on nothing other than "Wow he sure is pretty!!!! Akitas are very ~dominant~ dogs so I'll be sure to alpha roll him a lot!!! " It ended in typical "stupid person adopts primitive breed" fashion, with him loving up a lot of poo poo because I was an idiot and had no clue how to handle him. They are beautiful dogs, but they really do require a ton of knowledge and a certain personality type to handle them correctly, and it's so, so easy to gently caress up with them and when you do inevitably gently caress up, it can take months/years to undo one seconds worth of damage. Makes me really glad for my super easy, ultra biddable, "I'll do anything you say oh god just love me please" breed choice.
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Sep 2, 2010 16:06
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There's a ~2 year Akita girl in our nosework class who looks practically identical to that American Akita picture paisleyfox posted. Her handler has mentioned some difficulty getting her motivated in the beginning, and apparently when they work with the odor/treats outside of the box and she gets frustrated she goes around and looks in each box then looks at her person like "What the gently caress it's supposed to be in a box you idiot"  . She's doing a lot better now though and when she gets excited she tries wagging her little curly tail really fast, it's damned adorable.
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Sep 2, 2010 16:35
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rivals posted:when she gets excited she tries wagging her little curly tail really fast, it's damned adorable. I love this, I called it helicopter tail
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Sep 2, 2010 16:39
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COWER AT THE MIGHT OF THE JAPANESE! Cute knows no bounds.Kishu, Akita, Kai, Shiba. Y'all have no idea how much I wish I could take every one of those jerkoffs home.
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Sep 2, 2010 16:54
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Augh I love these breeds, so pretty and naughty. I'm not getting a dog anytime soon but I want to ask about them anyway: 1) I'm a big cat person, always had them. Are they assholes like cats are assholes? 2) Speaking of cats, are all primitive breeds really awful around cats in the house? Do they ever become friends or anything? 3) Would it be really bad to get one if you haven't had a dog before, or are they OK if you do some research and have some idea of what to expect? 4) Pfox hurry up and write about shibas I wanna hear about 'em. Yes I know that's not a question.
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Sep 2, 2010 16:57
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WolfBag will be best regarding cats in the house since as far as I know she's the only one here with a primitive dog and a cat. The short of it as I understand is that it's doable but a lot of work. They can view cats they live with differently from cats outside and tolerate the ones they live with. That said I don't really recommend them for a first time dog person even with research ahead of time. If you got some experience with them somehow before without having one that could work (foster, maybe? I'd say shelter but it's not super common to see them there, something along those lines or even volunteering at a shelter to get used to any dogs for a while then use that to sort of gauge it, knowing they'll be more difficult). Especially if you have cats and need to worry about that as well. rivals fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 17:04
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HondaCivet posted:Augh I love these breeds, so pretty and naughty. 1) Yes. Yes they are. They're still dogs, don't get me wrong, but they are the same sort of aloof, I know better than you do, begrudging attitude cats have. 2) It really depends on the dog. My dog thinks cats are AWESOME and tries to wag his whole butt in the air and will bark at them. Then gets bored when they don't do anything and will walk away. Other want to eat them. I will say, though, my in-laws' cat isn't very amused by Koji, but she's an even bigger rear end in a top hat than he is, so meh. 3) Not really, I guess. Koji is my first dog EVER. But I knew what I was getting into, I was involved in breed specific forums, hounded the rescue I now volunteer for, and played with my friends' Shiba, Dug, as well as my husband's Eskie, so I kind of knew what to expect attitude wise. Fostering, finding a local breed rescue, or a meetup group would be a great way to break into it. 4) 8( OKAY.
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Sep 2, 2010 17:10
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Hey warbadger, what kind of dog is your fuzzbutt? I just showed one of my friends her picture and now I have to explain that no, she's not a coyote.
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Sep 2, 2010 18:10
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My roommate has a Basenji, currently about 6 months old:   He's a pretty cool dog, but can be such a little poo poo. I knew about them being an ancient breed and also about shiba types being jerks, but I guess I never put 2 and 2 together; explains a lot. Unlike most of the other primitive breeds, they don't have a double coat and their hair is very short, so thankfully shedding is minimal. They don't bark, but they can still be very loud and make all kinds of other weird noises: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rMXqcUx90s
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Sep 2, 2010 18:42
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^^yesss it begins now I notice this thread needs many more pictures. I will help.    These pretty assholes are not my dogs, but rather my neighbor's dogs: a grumpy Jindo, an old Akita, and a young Husky mix. The white one is the Jindo, Kaia, who pretty much ignores you unless you are 'her people' but is tolerant and pleasant if you give her a treat. She growls at strangers, has bitten a vet and can be horrible on leash, though. Second dog is Tycho, a 9yr old Akita, and the nicest one I've ever met. Completely tolerant and gentle towards strangers, kids, cats, small dogs and other dogs. I have no clue how that happened, even though they're great dog people, because they had no hand in his socialization. He just nuzzles everything and then stands over it. He's a big love. Last is the new kid, Husky mix Taj that we helped them pick out from the rescue's litter and we've dogsat him ever since. He's a very sweet non-mouthy, non-jumpy dog for a 9 month old pup, and we love him. He hates our cats, though, and we have to separate when he visits. More pictures of Taj because I wish I could steal him he's so beautiful ugghh:   All three are rescues they got from Oakland. Lots of young idiot college kids= primitive dogs out here.
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Sep 2, 2010 19:34
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paisleyfox posted:Hey Paisley Is there a higher resolution version of this? This would be something I'd be interested in framing and placing in my office.
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Sep 2, 2010 19:36
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WolfensteinBag posted:haha Yeah, that sounds about right. American Eskimos tend to be SO protective of their families, that even some of the really well socialized dogs can get aggressive with strangers (especially groomers This is interesting to me because I've actually heard that about Akitas as opposed to American Eskimos. Admittedly, I don't know much about either breed.
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Sep 2, 2010 19:51
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Abandon All Hope posted:Hey Paisley Sure, I'll see what I can do. I still have the article in PDF at home, so when I get back tonight, I'll try to get a larger copy for you. rivals posted:This is interesting to me because I've actually heard that about Akitas as opposed to American Eskimos. Admittedly, I don't know much about either breed. It's kind of true across the primitive breeds in general. A lot of it still has to do with how much socializing they've had, but when it comes right down to it, it's really up to the individual dog. Every Akita I've meet has been a great squishy ball of aloof fluff, though I have heard stories from people I know well with bites, though honestly I don't know the details of said situations. From my experience, they tend to not just go in to bite unless they feel extremely threatened, and they're all also really mouthy dogs. The only time I was ever bit by my husband's old Eskie was when I accidently stepped on his foot, and he didn't break the skin. But while Hawk got better in his old age, and after the move from the house he lived at for 17 years, he never ever once had a problem with other dogs, it was just other people coming in on his territory he hated. Then again, he was shoved outside for most of his life, which is why I made good friends with him so he'd have a buddy when I'd be over.
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Sep 2, 2010 20:02
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I suppose that is all very true. Akitas and American Eskimos are both probably the primitive breeds I've spent the least amount of time with or around so I don't have any experience with them at all, and as such most of what I know of their "one man dog"ness is a very minor amount of anecdotal hearsay. I'd love a giant cuddly Akita though Edit: And Hawk is the perfect name for your husband's old dog. It's so fitting 
rivals fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 20:15
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Sweet! Looking forward to the Akita post. After much discussion and many visits, etc, I'll be fostering (my first foster!) an Akita from the Mid-Atlantic Akita rescue group. It's going to be a big challenge as Kodi was severely neglected and undernourished when he was brought to the shelter (where he further deteriorated), so he is extremely anxious around strange humans. But according to the adoption coordinator (who is currently fostering him), he is fine with cats and other dogs. Looking forward to 80 lbs of furry shedding assholeness :3 Picture from the website until I can take some of my own when he gets here this weekend. 
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Sep 2, 2010 21:32
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Wally P posted:Sweet! Looking forward to the Akita post. After much discussion and many visits, etc, I'll be fostering (my first foster!) an Akita from the Mid-Atlantic Akita rescue group. It's going to be a big challenge as Kodi was severely neglected and undernourished when he was brought to the shelter (where he further deteriorated), so he is extremely anxious around strange humans. But according to the adoption coordinator (who is currently fostering him), he is fine with cats and other dogs.  Plllleaaaase keep this thread updated with this handsome fellow!
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Sep 2, 2010 21:41
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HondaCivet posted:2) Speaking of cats, are all primitive breeds really awful around cats in the house? Do they ever become friends or anything?    Learning to be good:  Like it's already been said, it depends on the dog, and it depends on the level of training. I would say from my experience, there is no breed in this group that is inherently better or worse with small animals (unless you consider sight hounds) but individual dogs will have different instincts. I'd say if you're worried about cats, your BEST bet would be to adopt an older dog who's history is known so you give yourself the easiest time possible. That said, it IS possible to work at training out prey drive (which you will ALWAYS have to do to a degree) but it takes a lot of work. Also, different dogs have different levels of prey drive, and a lot of dogs can never be trusted alone with cat for this reason. We had Buddy for about 3 1/2 years before we got our cat. In those 3 odd years, we worked on him with the random animals we saw on our walks. We got him used to the "No Chasing" command to where if nothing else, he understood the command and generally followed it. This command was invaluable when it came to getting the cat. When we brought her home, obviously she spent her first time locked away, then only short, supervised time with the dog in short bursts. This was the most important time for us with Buddy because we were able to reinforce the idea that he should ignore Kaipo. Any time he seemed like he might get excited around her, he was told, "Leave it, no chasing," and he caught on pretty quick how to be nice. After working on this awhile, he's totally fine with her now. The only thing he'll do is a correction bark/charge/whatever you want to call it that he would use with another dog, not a prey animal, so we let him "correct" her (unless he's out of line, obviously). It's totally possible to teach dogs to respect cats from puppihood, but it's important to remember that it will be a lot more difficult (as opposed to an adult who is known to be good with cats) because puppies need to learn EVERYTHING from scratch, so it isn't just the one behavior that's being worked on. However, if it's going to be your first dog, that's even more reason to get an adult. quote:3) Would it be really bad to get one if you haven't had a dog before, or are they OK if you do some research and have some idea of what to expect? paisleyfox posted:3) Not really, I guess. Koji is my first dog EVER. But I knew what I was getting into, I was involved in breed specific forums, hounded the rescue I now volunteer for, and played with my friends' Shiba, Dug, as well as my husband's Eskie, so I kind of knew what to expect attitude wise. Fostering, finding a local breed rescue, or a meetup group would be a great way to break into it. All of this! Buddy's technically my first dog, too!  However, I'd actually studied the breed for years before hand, and landed my job grooming where I got to handle huskies along with tons of other dogs. I could tell the research I'd done was really an asset, because I was able to handle the huskies at work right off, when the people I worked with who'd been grooming for years still had problems with them. Also, around the same time I was staying with my now husband at his parents' house, so I would help out with their 3 dogs.If I were you and considering ANY dog, I'd find some sort of group you could volunteer with where you could get lots of first hand experience. If there's a specific breed you have in mind, see if you can find a breed rescue or breed club in your area that would be willing to give you experience with the dogs. People in those sort of groups will LOVE that you want to get experience first, because they're the ones that see problems with impulse, "THEY'RE SO CUTE!!!" purchases. Overall, I'd say you need to have a very calm, confident attitude when it comes to these dogs. They need to know you're in charge and that things don't phase you. The SECOND they see you falter, they take advantage. Contrary to what a lot of people think, this doesn't mean you need to "dominate" them, yell at them, or constantly correct them, but rather they have to get the general sense that you won't accept any poo poo on your end, so they won't even bother. It's really a hard thing to explain, that's why getting to know other primitive breed owners is the best experience you can get.
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Sep 2, 2010 21:48
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paisleyfox posted:COWER AT THE MIGHT OF THE JAPANESE! hahaha I love when she finds the akita, "KAWAII!  "
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Sep 2, 2010 21:50
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WolfensteinBag posted:BUDDY! It's so weird seeing Huskies without giant buggy eyes like Kaidan. Also I absolutely love his coat color. He has almost that piebald (I think that's what it's called, at least for huskies) black and white that is more patchy rather than sort of blending together.EDIT: paisleyfox posted:COWER AT THE MIGHT OF THE JAPANESE! HOLY poo poo. This made for the best lunch break I've ever had. The one who's attacking the plant
rivals fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 22:06
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WolfensteinBag posted:Overall, I'd say you need to have a very calm, confident attitude when it comes to these dogs. They need to know you're in charge and that things don't phase you. The SECOND they see you falter, they take advantage. Contrary to what a lot of people think, this doesn't mean you need to "dominate" them, yell at them, or constantly correct them, but rather they have to get the general sense that you won't accept any poo poo on your end, so they won't even bother. It's really a hard thing to explain, that's why getting to know other primitive breed owners is the best experience you can get. I just wanted to requote this, this is VERY important to understanding these dogs (and I'll probably add it to the main post.) Koji has learned, not overnight mind you, differences in our tone when we go to correct him. He knows between the "be nice~" and "if you don't stop that poo poo right now we are leaving" sort of tone. Does he still test us? Every single step of the way, but he knows when we mean business since we stay firm. (No, you may absolutely NOT stand by the door when it is open until I say so. Get up and the door closes and we do it again.) They pick up that the fastest way to what they want, or the way to not get their fun/stuff taken away is to listen. That also means you have to follow through on what's important, too. Sometimes you pick and choose your battles. Yeah, he's not NORMALLY allowed on the couch, but this time is okay, so long as he gets off when you ask him to. You also always want to set your dog up for success, not failure. So with your dog, you will learn the signs that will lead up to certain undesirable behaviors and be able to stop it before it happens with distractions. Get worked up and the dogs get worked up themselves. It is hard to explain, but if anyone has ever had first hand experience in a daycare or with young children, you will know EXACTLY what we are talking about.
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Sep 2, 2010 22:10
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 This is Viggo, and he's an Icelandic Sheepdog. He's another one of the dogs Cohen plays with at the park. Icelandic Sheepdogs fascinate me since they're pretty much smack-dab in the middle of primitives and herders. They are a member of the Spitz family and have the typical independent "gently caress you I won't do what you tell me" personalities. They were brought to Iceland by the Vikings (!!!) and are the ancestor of the Shetland Sheepdog and Welsh Corgi. They have double dew-claws on their rear feet, and it's kinda funny lookin'. They were used as watch dogs and livestock guardians, and when necessary would be used to drive livestock when it strayed. Plague and canine distemper almost wiped out the breed in the late 1800s. In 1969 the Icelandic Dog Breeder Association was established to preserve the breed, and they gained AKC recognition very recently -- in June 2010. They're thick, stocky dogs with a coat that seems to range from the typical Spitz/Shiba coat to something more Collie-like. Viggo's is definitely of the latter. They're a medium sized breed, probably weighing between 30 and 50 lbs when mature. Viggo is quite a character. He's very vocal (barkbarkbarkbarkbark) when playing, loves chasing bicycles and anything with a siren. He and Cohen will both wrestle and chase, and have similar pushy attitudes. He's a total lovebug, and I want to bring him home with me.
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Sep 2, 2010 22:11
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^^^a life less, that dog's beautiful! paisleyfox posted:No, you may absolutely NOT stand by the door when it is open until I say so. Get up and the door closes and we do it again. HA!! We fight that battle every day! Less so when Buddy's tired. I swear sometimes he has to be a punk for things just for the experience of it, even if it means delaying his own gratification. Like he's trying to say, "Yeah, this is MY idea, not yours..."paisleyfox posted:It is hard to explain, but if anyone has ever had first hand experience in a daycare or with young children, you will know EXACTLY what we are talking about. This just killed me, because it is SPOT ON. I always say I inherently know how to handle these dogs well because I take after my father. He's the type that would give you one look and you'd feel SO guilty that you would try so hard to be good.  It's the "I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed..." attitude that you really have to have.
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Sep 2, 2010 22:24
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HondaCivet posted:2) Speaking of cats, are all primitive breeds really awful around cats in the house? Do they ever become friends or anything? It depends on the dog and how they are raised. My afghan hound loves my cats...to death. Literally. To the point where the dog is not allowed upstairs and the cats are not allowed downstairs. She'll chase them down and kill them if given the chance. Not her fault, she probably spent a lot of time chasing cats while she was a stray, but in my particular situation they can't ever be left alone together. It took a good 2 years for her to not stand at the foot of the stairs and whine at the baby gate every time she was out of her crate because she knew they were up there, that is how strong her instinct is to chase down little furry creatures. But that probably has more to do with her being a sighthound than a "primitive" breed, so ymmv.
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Sep 2, 2010 22:29
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paisleyfox posted:COWER AT THE MIGHT OF THE JAPANESE! Good lord this is the cutest thing I've seen in a very, very long time. Those little kimonos at the end I want to get Zoso a kimono now...
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Sep 2, 2010 22:40
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demozthenes posted:Please correct me if I'm wrong (likely) but aren't Pekes and Pugs really closely related? My pug would work but her recall was poo poo and she'd often shoot my family the "snotty teenager look" when we wanted her to do something and didn't have a treat on hand. Pugs are very close to the Pekingese in the great dog tree of ancestry. Here is a bonus picture of a 19th century Pekingese or "Chinese Happa Dog." It is so incredibly downsy. Wanna meet that dog! 
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Sep 2, 2010 23:13
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Recently I visited a friend-of-a-friends house, and he owned a pariah dog his wife had found as a stray puppy while doing research in India. Unfortunately I didn't bring my camera, but the dog was a generic medium sized yellow dog with prick ears (actually, one prick one flop ) and a curled tail. The dog had a lot of behaviours which some people (including me, I'm afraid :x ) would find to be a nuisance - he was very vocal and headstrong, a nuisance barker, pee-er, crotch-sniffer, digger and roamer - but he was very much loved and got on great with his family . The roaming was a big problem, and they ended up having to get an electric fence installed in their (6+foot fenced) yard. He was awesome though, I wish I'd got pics. Speaking of pariah dogs, feral populations have received a lot of attention from ethologists over the years - here's a nice intro chapter from the book 'The Behavioural Biology of Dogs' (2007) http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SpkSd__EdKYC&lpg=PA147&ots=4l_tZMMUTb&dq=pariah&lr&pg=PA147#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Sep 2, 2010 23:16
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sorry. ignore this.
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Sep 2, 2010 23:27
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Captain Log posted:Pugs are very close to the Pekingese in the great dog tree of ancestry.
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Sep 2, 2010 23:28
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Captain Log posted:"Bring me Solo and the Wookiee. They will all suffer for this outrage."
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Sep 3, 2010 00:18
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Captain Log posted:I don't think I'm going to sleep tonight. Or ever again, really.
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Sep 3, 2010 00:42
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Captain Log posted:Pugs are very close to the Pekingese in the great dog tree of ancestry. OK that's a stuffed dog and not a living one right? 'Cuz if that's a living dog . . .  Anyway, I thought I'd heard that these types of breeds tend to be more fastidious than the average dog, is that true? Like, I heard that they wash themselves sometimes. Y'know, just to add to the "ways primitives are like cats" list.
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Sep 3, 2010 00:42
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^^ Dunno if this applies to all Pomeranians, or even all Spitz, but Keeper definitely cleans himself like a cat. He washes his paws if he gets dirty after eating and he refuses to go any further if he happens to get a burr or a foxtail caught on his leg during a walk. Just sits his rear end down like 'Well? Aren't you going to attend to this mess?"a life less posted:
oh god SOMEDAY THIS WILL BE MINE Icelandic Sheepdogs were one of the first breeds I latched onto when my mom gave me my big ole dog encyclopedia. I remember reading that they are particularly fond of fresh fish.
Captain Foxy fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Sep 3, 2010 |
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Sep 3, 2010 00:48
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HondaCivet posted:OK that's a stuffed dog and not a living one right? 'Cuz if that's a living dog . . . That's a picture from the 19th century. How can you all not see that cute idiot dog for what he is!? Nothing to be afraid of! He looks like he would consider all things very important.
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Sep 3, 2010 01:01
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Captain Log posted:That's a picture from the 19th century. ..They didn't have colour photography in the 19th century  . The dog is stuffed. And looks like Frankie so idk what Super is talking about 
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Sep 3, 2010 01:05
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notsoape posted:..They didn't have colour photography in the 19th century Well gently caress me I never looked at it that closely. I thought it was just badly color-ized or whatever it's called.
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Sep 3, 2010 01:18
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notsoape posted:..They didn't have colour photography in the 19th century Um excuse me maybe you shouldn't make fun of Frankie like that he is very sensitive?????????
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Sep 3, 2010 01:23
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HondaCivet posted:Anyway, I thought I'd heard that these types of breeds tend to be more fastidious than the average dog, is that true? Like, I heard that they wash themselves sometimes. Y'know, just to add to the "ways primitives are like cats" list. YES! Koji is like how Cpt Foxy described Keeper. He licks his paws, leaps over dirt, and seems to get his panties in a bunch when I make him walk through wet grass. The only thing Koji doesn't do like cats is the part where they lick their paws then rub their head. He FLIPS the gently caress out over his own poo (especially if he's eaten hair and it...hangs there  ) and every time he goes he runs away from his poo ghosts, and will always clean himself after a good long walk or hike. But he stays so clean I really only find I have to wash him if we've been to the dog park too many times in a row and he found something super awesome to roll in, or just treked through the grass too many times and smells like pee (some of our dog parks are just awesome like that...). But even then, its pretty far and few between (which is good, because he clogs my tub!  ) I've even heard of other prim owners having filthy dogs but by the time they get home, they've groomed themselves back into an acceptable state.It's pretty sweet. ETA: Hey, Abandon, I managed to piece together a larger version of the gene wheel from nature Magazine for you. It's roughly 1700x1500. I can go even bigger, the lines and text will translate into any size, but unfortunately much bigger than this and you'd have to find new pictures of the dogs since they start to get really pixelated. paisleyfox fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Sep 3, 2010 |
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Sep 3, 2010 04:48
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You know, I don't notice Kaidan cleaning himself that often, but he's almost never dirty. I don't know how it happens. We go on walks at 7:30 every morning through the dew-y grass and occasional mud, our backyard is primarily dirt currently, and the only dog park we go to is all bark but drat if his long, thick coat isn't consistently cleaner than Eris'. I know he's gotten little marks on his paws and legs from random treats and things we've given him over time and they always seem to be gone within a couple hours.
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Sep 3, 2010 05:21
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Buddy's a dainty little flower, too. He doesn't like going out in the rain and god forbid the grass is wet. True to his breed, the only thing he doesn't mind is snow.  When he's in the yard, too, he'll really only go in the grass to do his business and do a "patrolling" sweep of "his" land, when he goes to lay down, it's always on our cement porch or occasionally the driveway.My favorite story about how clean he is was when we went to visit my parents' one day RIGHT after my brother finished cutting the lawn. It was sorta when Buddy was still new, so I was planning on taking him around on his leash first, even though it's all fenced in, but my dad goes, "He's fine!" and lets him loose. (side note, thankfully my brother heard jingling, he still had the fence open! ) Anyway, he goes BOLTING through the freshly cut grass and comes back with green paws. I'm thinking to myself, "Great! Now he's going to be green for ages, grass stains are SO hard to wash out of dogs..." but the next day, they were completely gone!  Really, the only reason I wash Buddy about 4-12 weeks or so is mainly for his shedding. The bath really, really helps get the undercoat out. Plus, it's as easy (and cheap!) as just taking him to work with me. The distance between baths depends on how much he's shedding. Right now he's finished blowing his winter coat and shedding is at a minimum, so it's been awhile since his last bath, and it'll probably be a bit yet before I take him. Oh, if he seems itchy I'll wash him, too, because he's sensitive like that.
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Sep 3, 2010 12:33
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paisleyfox posted:YES! Koji is like how Cpt Foxy described Keeper. He licks his paws, leaps over dirt, and seems to get his panties in a bunch when I make him walk through wet grass. The only thing Koji doesn't do like cats is the part where they lick their paws then rub their head. He FLIPS the gently caress out over his own poo (especially if he's eaten hair and it...hangs there Thanks so much, Paisley. And all of you have gorgeous dogs! The woman up the street has like 3 Shiba Inu and I adore them
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Sep 3, 2010 14:38
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