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Regy Rusty posted:You're the one who thinks he's got hold of a snake. I'm holding the elephant's other trunk.
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Apr 7, 2015 04:54
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Ditocoaf posted:Excellent, excellent post, idonotlikepeas. I agree that Annie's changing persona is a very important part of the comic, but I don't know if it's on a spectrum between like mom and like dad. When she got back from the forest, I didn't feel like she was acting more like Surma. I thought she was acting more like the forest elves. Antimony was never properly socialized as a kid. She spent all her time with sick or dead people (anthony counts as dead inside) and no time with other kids. She doesn't really have the social skills to make friends, and she's under a lot of stress. So she uses the coping mechanism she learned from her dad at the beginning of the comic. During the summer in the forest, Antimony is able to learn some social skills. They're kind of lovely social skills that tend to rely on elaborate plots, but she has them and she uses them. Thinking about emotional states, though, I wonder if Antimony likes Ysengrin because he reminds her of her parents. Surma didn't seem like one to back down from a fight, and pushing down/controlling emotions is Anthony in a nutshell. For that matter, maybe all of the adults Antimony likes can be seen as echoing her parents in one way or another. Coyote is a trickster, and Surma tricked Reynard but good. I don't think Jones and Anthony have many similarities on the inside, but they express themselves similarly. Does Antimony like any other adults? She doesn't get very close to Kat's parents, and she dislikes Eglamore, at the very least.
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Apr 7, 2015 04:54
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SynthOrange posted:I'm holding the elephant's other trunk. 
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Apr 7, 2015 04:55
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SynthOrange posted:I'm holding the elephant's other trunk. Elgamore, you hound!
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Apr 7, 2015 04:58
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Wittgen posted:Thinking about emotional states, though, I wonder if Antimony likes Ysengrin because he reminds her of her parents. Surma didn't seem like one to back down from a fight, and pushing down/controlling emotions is Anthony in a nutshell. For that matter, maybe all of the adults Antimony likes can be seen as echoing her parents in one way or another. Coyote is a trickster, and Surma tricked Reynard but good. I don't think Jones and Anthony have many similarities on the inside, but they express themselves similarly. Does Antimony like any other adults? She doesn't get very close to Kat's parents, and she dislikes Eglamore, at the very least. Antimony seems to like people who are open with her. She likes Coyote and Ysengrin, who are pretty up front about what they are. She likes Jones, who always says exactly what's on her mind. She's cool towards the Donlans, who have always been friendly but guarded towards her and never really say exactly what they're thinking, probably out of loyalty to Anthony. She outright dislikes Eglamore, who has always had his whole freaky transferred-romantic-feelings deal bubbling under the surface.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:00
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And this sort of brings us back around to the previous conversation where people keep sort of talking like motivation is anything other than a reason for actions and not an excuse for their ramifications. You can talk about noble goals and moral standpoints all you want but at the end of the day it doesn't actually change the outcome of anything that's happened. It's not like if I punch you to swat a fly on your head, it changes the fact that I just socked you in the jaw.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:05
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Rei_ posted:And this sort of brings us back around to the previous conversation where people keep sort of talking like motivation is anything other than a reason for actions and not an excuse for their ramifications. You can talk about noble goals and moral standpoints all you want but at the end of the day it doesn't actually change the outcome of anything that's happened. It's not like if I punch you to swat a fly on your head, it changes the fact that I just socked you in the jaw.  Pictured: Anthony Carver, father of the year.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:17
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Rei_ posted:And this sort of brings us back around to the previous conversation where people keep sort of talking like motivation is anything other than a reason for actions and not an excuse for their ramifications. You can talk about noble goals and moral standpoints all you want but at the end of the day it doesn't actually change the outcome of anything that's happened. It's not like if I punch you to swat a fly on your head, it changes the fact that I just socked you in the jaw. What if the alternative to doing something is much worse than the act itself? If you and I were stranded in the jungle and your foot had a gangrenous infection, you bet I'd cut that sucker off. We're looking at a universe with fantastic and magical elements, literal gods walking among the characters. And people actually think it's impossible for there to be a good, valid reason for Anthony's absence?
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Apr 7, 2015 05:18
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Fister Roboto posted:What if the alternative to doing something is much worse than the act itself? If you and I were stranded in the jungle and your foot had a gangrenous infection, you bet I'd cut that sucker off. It's more like if you and I were stranded in the jungle and you just cut off my foot and I'm like "what the gently caress" and you're like "I had a good reason trust me  "
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Apr 7, 2015 05:22
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Fister Roboto posted:What if the alternative to doing something is much worse than the act itself? If you and I were stranded in the jungle and your foot had a gangrenous infection, you bet I'd cut that sucker off. What I find unbelievable is that this reason could absolve him of his behavior. Jack Bauer is technically narratively justified in torturing people on his horrible show, but I still think of him as a huge rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:25
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Fister Roboto posted:What if the alternative to doing something is much worse than the act itself? If you and I were stranded in the jungle and your foot had a gangrenous infection, you bet I'd cut that sucker off. Fantastical elements do not excuse poor characterization. If you think otherwise, you're bad at fiction. And this comic by and large has good characterization, hence why Anthony has been consistently portrayed as a neglectful shadow over his daughter's life who vacillates between borderline-autistic towards the majority of the human race and actively resentful of his child's continued existence.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:25
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Oxxidation posted:Fantastical elements do not excuse poor characterization. If you think otherwise, you're bad at fiction. Are you seriously trying to tell me that good characterization is "bad guy does bad things all the time"? Lurdiak posted:What I find unbelievable is that this reason could absolve him of his behavior. Jack Bauer is technically narratively justified in torturing people on his horrible show, but I still think of him as a huge rear end in a top hat. What if there was something about Annie's fire spirit where being close to her loved ones hastened her demise? Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 05:29
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Then maybe he should lead off with that instead of whatever he's doing in the last few pages.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:33
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Fister Roboto posted:Are you seriously trying to tell me that good characterization is "bad guy does bad things all the time"? It is important to be consistent and adhere to qualities you previously took pains to set up regarding your characters, yes, no matter how certain (very stupid) members of your audience may persistently and blindly ignore what's in front of their faces because they, for example, have found themselves on the losing end of a silly Internet argument and decided to double down instead of gracefully bow out.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:33
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Oxxidation posted:It is important to be consistent and adhere to qualities you previously took pains to set up regarding your characters, yes, no matter how certain (very stupid) members of your audience may persistently and blindly ignore what's in front of their faces because they, for example, have found themselves on the losing end of a silly Internet argument and decided to double down instead of gracefully bow out. I'm not blindly ignoring what's in front of me. I'm entirely open to the possibility that Anthony is just a huge rear end in a top hat who's only reason for his actions is that he's an autistic sociopath who likes to torture his daughter. I don't think that's at all likely, but I'm not going to rule it out. Maybe Tom will surprise me with that! I hope not. On the other hand, many people in this thread seem to be stuck on the idea that Anthony is an rear end in a top hat, and have actually ruled out the possibility that he's not. And was the insult really necessary? I have a different perspective on this, you don't need to call me stupid for that. And I don't need to "gracefully bow out" just because the people who disagree with me outnumber me.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:40
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm not blindly ignoring what's in front of me. I'm entirely open to the possibility that Anthony is just a huge rear end in a top hat who's only reason for his actions is that he's an autistic sociopath who likes to torture his daughter. I don't think that's at all likely, but I'm not going to rule it out. Maybe Tom will surprise me with that! I hope not. Very few people are actually saying this. What they are actually saying is that, for all intents and purposes, this fictional scientist man is a Bad Dad. He has exhibited all the classical traits of abusive parenting, succinctly laid out in the last several weeks of updates and in the last decade of strips beforehand. Any hidden benevolent motives his actions may carry do not excuse, nor do they soften, his present behavior, nor his portrayal as a source of toxic neurosis in his daughter's life. Please open your mind to the exciting vistas of actual nuance which lay before you, and emerge from this thread a better man. quote:And was the insult really necessary? Is your stupid face really necessary
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Apr 7, 2015 05:44
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Man you're way better at this than I am. I was just gonna start hurling rocks.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:46
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I don't agree with Oxxidation's characterization thing. But again, Anthony could have the best reason in the world for the things he did and is doing. But the way he has and is going about it makes him an rear end in a top hat. He can be an rear end in a top hat with good intentions.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:48
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Anthony is an rear end in a top hat through and through. But I am 0% convinced that he has any ill intentions towards Annie. As in, he is doing what he thinks is best for her. Some people are saying that he is being emotionally manipulative and I just don't see it.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:51
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Well, maybe I am being stubborn about this, and I honestly have as much ground to stand on as anyone else. All I can say for certain is "we'll see".
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Apr 7, 2015 05:52
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Fister Roboto posted:Well, maybe I am being stubborn about this, and I honestly have as much ground to stand on as anyone else. All I can say for certain is "we'll see". You have pretty much no ground to stand on, the comic's done all it can to rub our faces in Anthony being a bad guy. Anthony having a good reason to abandon his daughter and never contact her in all that time except to get something he wants, one that justifies the trauma and pain he's caused her, would be lovely writing. After pushing this hard to show that Anthony is loving up his daughter's life and is an overall negative influence on her well-being and happiness, turning around and going "Fooled you! He's actually been right all along!" would not be clever or good writing, and I think too much of Tom to expect such a thing happening.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:56
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There's always going to be some 'good' reason for why a character does a thing. Outside of terrible hack writers, the reason is never 'he is the bad guy'. Well written characters, just like real people, always think they have a justifiable reason for whatever they do. They knew best, they were protecting their friends, or family, or their race/class/country. No one really sets out to do something bad simply because it's bad. Even given that a person might be some kind of psychotic sadist who stabs people for fun, they're still doing it because they personally get something good out of it, namely their own twisted pleasure. So when this is all said and done, of course there will be some arguably good reason why Tony is being such a douchenozzle. None of that will change the fact that, objectively, he is being a douchenozzle. 
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Apr 7, 2015 06:16
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I've basically just discovered this comic and read it over the weekend. Anthony has been built up to be a godawful father for the whole comic, and now that he shows up, yeah, he's a loving terrible father. Any excuses he has for being such are just that. Excuses. What's worse than this antagonizing Anthony-Antimony psycho-torture is the fact that I don't have 10 more years of comic to binge through.
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Apr 7, 2015 06:24
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Love makes people act in strange ways.
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Apr 7, 2015 06:27
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Fister Roboto posted:This is what I'm talking about with jumping to conclusions. You're not even open to the possibility? Really? In a setting with as much mystery and fantasy as this? He could (and most likely will) have an understandable reason, but I guarantee you it will be a 'wrong' reason. As in his priorities are misplaced, pretty much no matter what.
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Apr 7, 2015 06:30
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She cried and he did nothing.
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Apr 7, 2015 06:35
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Anthony is a neglectful parent who barely even knows his daughter. In fact, he has deliberately distanced himself from her for her entire life. Despite this, Anthony still insists that he knows best how she should live her life. Antimony cannot be trusted to make the right decisions, nor can her friends and acquaintances be trusted to lead her in the right direction. Nay, he has all the right answers, and only him. And he will remold her life as he sees fit, without consent, because dammit, it's for her own good. Regardless of any other characterization he receives, all of these statements will still hold true.
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Apr 7, 2015 06:51
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JT Jag posted:Anthony is a neglectful parent who barely even knows his daughter. In fact, he has deliberately distanced himself from her for her entire life. Despite this, Anthony still insists that he knows best how she should live her life. Antimony cannot be trusted to make the right decisions, nor can her friends and acquaintances be trusted to lead her in the right direction. Except for her childhood, where he taught her self defense. It's obvious he played some role in her life until her mother died. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Anthony Carver is not a great Dad but he's actively trying to do something good for his kid and is a big ol' goon who can't emotionally connected to anyone which is hilarious to watch people project and act like he's the worst villain the narrative has seen which is just silly.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:03
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Nuebot posted:Except for her childhood, where he taught her self defense. It's obvious he played some role in her life until her mother died.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:05
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JT Jag posted:Cool, as of now Annie is on the record as having learned one (1) thing from her father. I guess that entitles him to dictate exactly how she should live her life now. To be fair, he did teach her about it pretty well. Annie's kicked some rear end in the comic, it's pretty cool to see!
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Apr 7, 2015 07:07
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Man, the art is really great this arc at bringing home the point on how Anni is feeling.  I don't think giving away Reynard is a good idea.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:11
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Darth TNT posted:I don't think giving away Reynard is a good idea. We're pretty sure it'll free him. It's the best idea. 
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Apr 7, 2015 07:22
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JT Jag posted:Cool, as of now Annie is on the record as having learned one (1) thing from her father. I guess that entitles him to dictate exactly how she should live her life now. It's almost like cheating on all your work for a year or two and flagrantly disregarding any authority can have consequences  pretty much any non-fantasy school probably would have booted her out of the door just for that already.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:25
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Nuebot posted:It's almost like cheating on all your work for a year or two and flagrantly disregarding any authority can have consequences Was she wrong to cheat? Obviously, yeah. Was the school more wrong to do nothing about it? Also yeah.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:32
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Dammerung posted:To be fair, he did teach her about it pretty well. Annie's kicked some rear end in the comic, it's pretty cool to see! He even played an indirect role in Winsbury chilling out, via Annie smacking him down. If it makes anyone feel better, Anthony feels terrible about neglecting Annie, and is terrified of losing her, and petrified by his total lack of parenting experience. When he says he's disappointed with her cheating, he never specifies who he's disappointed with, for example. He's trying to control her as a proxy for his emotions, and overcompensating horribly for his neglect.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:37
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Tom has clarified that transferring ownership of Rey would not free him but instead put him under Anthony's control. Of course, it is not out of the realm of possibility that getting his hands on Rey is actually Anthony's whole point for returning, and that he will now be leaving again, taking Renard with him.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:51
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Nuebot posted:It's almost like cheating on all your work for a year or two and flagrantly disregarding any authority can have consequences Court Headmaster spotted. Fangz posted:Tom has clarified that transferring ownership of Rey would not free him but instead put him under Anthony's control. This sounds sufficiently narcissistic to actually happen if no one stops him.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:54
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Elysiume posted:If the school is aware of the cheating and does nothing until it can get something out of it (in this case it seems to be utilizing the cheating and Antimony's weird dad to force her to stay out of the forest), the school is the way bigger problem than the teenager. "More wrong" no one is "more wrong". What could the school have even done. Again, she completely and utterly disregards any authority she disagrees with. Reyndardine expressed concern about it ages ago and she blew up at him, Jones warned her and she just ignored it. I kind of suspect that it's not actually a court ploy to control her or anything, but rather They might have actually just told her parent or guardian.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:59
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Nuebot posted:What could the school have even done.
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Apr 7, 2015 08:00
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Fangz posted:Tom has clarified that transferring ownership of Rey would not free him but instead put him under Anthony's control. Sort of. The question Tom was answering was very specifically phrased, so right now we don't actually know where the line between "taken from her" and "given by her completely of her own free will and volition" is in terms of the contract. I actually consider the fact that he knows so little about the contract to be the best evidence that this will free Reynard. Tony doesn't have the best track record with meddling with the Ether, and magical contacts are a honeypot for overconfident fools. E: the question also specified "uncompelled," but since Tom only confirmed that the contract could change hands under those circumstances, it's hard to weigh the precise wording of the question. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 08:05
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