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The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Bonzo posted:

If I may don my tinfoil hat there....until a few months ago, bell was not throttling teksavvy traffic. Then suddenly around the 1st of the year they were. I just wonder if they turned the throttling off to get stats to show the CRTC. Then, once they had collected enough data, turned throttling on again.

It sounds ridiculous but when you look at all of the other poo poo they have pulled over the past three years it's quite reasonable. I particularly love their handling of grandfathered accounts. They unofficially told CSRs to "upgrade" grandfathered accounts when they called in (without permission) even if it was for something totally unrelated. There was a huge rash of people on the dslreports forums who had been switched to some other plan and when they called in to get it fixed were told that it was impossible. A friend of mine who worked at Bell told me he felt like a scumball every day he went to work because they had so many lovely customer service policies forced on them and basically had to screw the customer at every opportunity.

edit: I should have specified grandfathered "unlimited" accounts. Oh and they jack the price up every year for them as well.

The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 8, 2011

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The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
If this is the one with the Bell guys then I think I won't bother watching/listening for fear of raging out like the hulk at work.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

quote:

No, you cap their phone usage and charge ridiculous amounts for overages to encourage less phone use so you don't have to invest in infrastructure. Geez, haven't you listened to the Bell guy at all?

I really hope this poo poo backfires on them and we end up with legislation that moves us towards what other countries already have. I mean, I've lived with a lovely enough connection (satellite) that Teksavvy's 5 mbit down, 200 gb limit was heaven while I was in Waterloo, but even a (relatively, within Canada) large bandwidth limit like that is going to gradually become less, and I know a lot of people are already dissatisfied with 5/1 connections. Especially when everyone else is getting more for less.

Awhile back I priced out overages on cable versus DSL after UBB and it was literally a $5 difference for 16/1 cable with $30 unlimited overages vs 5mbit DSL with 300GB. Even compared to their local competitors it's ludicrous, let alone other countries. Assuming UBB is somehow defeated, everyone is still stuck with the same 5mbit DSL they've had for the past ten years. Where are all of those infrastructure investments?

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Yeah same story here except that I went to Cogeco. I won't lie, it sucks paying $30 for overages but at least there's no ceiling on them (for now) and we needed the speed, we were pretty much running our 5mbit full bore after work straight til 9pm. I had to start letting Steam games and PSN stuff download over night.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Bonzo posted:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r25507992-DSL-TekSavvy-Bell-Tech-not-being-honest-charging-me-100-

Bell is now charging TekSavvy customers opening tickets to have lines tested. Acording to what has been posted in that thread, Bell bills EVERY customer that TS requests work on. TS then looks at each case individually and disputes them with Bell. However, if a Bell tech does not specify the work done on the ticket, Bell rules in favor of themselves leaving TS no choice but to bill the customer.

They started this awhile ago, when I moved into my new place Bell didn't provision my line properly and it took about four support tickets for them to get it right. I got fed up with the slow speeds and eventually switched to Cogeco. About three months later I got hit with $400 in support ticket related costs from Teksavvy. I disputed them all and they sided with me but I felt bad because they probably had to compensate Bell. This was stuff that was Bell's fault directly, in no way should I or Teksavvy have been billed for it. About this time other users started reporting the same thing and I suspect that it's a blanket rule now.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Acanac is well known for horrible customer service and I doubt it will ever improve judging by how long this has been the case. You're not the first person to have that happen, quite a few people on dslreports have gone through the exact same situation with them even after calling to make sure service was available first.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Many ISPs(mostly the big commercial ones) are throttling things like BitTorrent and charging for overages. No month to month bandwidth carry over or any other traffic management policies that might benefit both parties, it's strictly "our TV revenues are dropping and we're gonna rape you" gouge city up here. Most of them are literally on the record with shareholders saying that they view bandwidth(both residential and cellular) as huge growth profit centers.

The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Apr 26, 2011

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Yeah that's definitely the way to go, I did the same thing with my father. Got him a domain name, set his reply to address in poo poo like the blackberry to the new email in case he uses the old account at all. Three months is a good enough time to pick up the important people, he can dump it after that and anyone else will probably have his phone number anyway.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

StealthArcher posted:

Fair point, he's well and willing to listen to me if I have a solution.

Only problem is his contacts are horribly decentralized and in strings, word of mouth is powerful, having kept him employed, but it's also horrible to follow up with any of them who didn't wind up giving contact info.

Well yeah, I mean if it's literally his business riding on it then $10 a month is nothing for the peace of mind. Just make sure the robot he gets from Bell support actually does the account downgrade properly. I can't even remember the last time I saw Bell provision anything successfully the first time.

The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 04:14 on May 4, 2011

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

quote:

(I work for Shaw, and this is my OPINION, and no more)

I think he's referring to the newer plans, not UBB. He's basically saying they are charging what they can get away with and until people stop them they will continue doing so. Most of the expenses are a known quantity and have been for some time now. If had anything to do with costs or fairness then these companies would be offering incentives for traffic control, like refunding unused traffic inside of peak hours, month to month bandwidth carry over or offering cheaper bandwidth outside of peak usage times. Cable revenues for many companies have started to flatten or fall and bandwidth is viewed as a very high profit item, cable execs have said as much publicly even. They're a business so I can't really fault them for it, it's just a shame people tolerate it so far.

The packages themselves aren't totally offensive or something but it's very much Shaw having its cake and eating it too. Considering all of the speeds are most likely "up to" to whatever they're rated at and will likely be much lower, you're essentially paying a high price for the bandwidth alone.

The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 14:49 on May 26, 2011

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

TrueChaos posted:

And again, they don't show. For fucks sake.

What's going to be hilarious is when you get a series of bills out of nowhere in six months time. Same sort of thing happened to me with Teksavvy/Bell when I moved awhile ago, I eventually had to get Cogeco instead. Then out of the blue I got like $200 in bills from Teksavvy that were "diagnostic charges" and poo poo from Bell visits that never happened, not on my end or theirs. Teksavvy ended up backing down after doing an "investigation" that took another 3 months to come to its conclusion. I think word has gone out at Bell to basically screw with resellers as much as possible within the confines of the tariffs. So I'm stuck with lovely, expensive Cogeco until Teksavvy comes to Cogecoland which is probably never at this point because the TPIA contractual terms are so ancient that Cogeco is using them like a loophole.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
It would be nice to know if Teksavvy has a plan in general when it comes to all Cogeco controlled territories or if they're just basically screwed due to the tariff. Rocky said something awhile ago about how the tariff was restricting them but didn't mention if they planned to address that with the CRTC at all.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Teksavvy is going through some growing pains but they are generally very customer service oriented. Your experience is an outlier, it happens but it's not the norm. You should definitely escalate the issue to a supervisor so that they can properly take care of things here. I had a similar experience when I moved, things up to that had been fine but there was a mistake in the transition and I wasn't happy with the result. In the end I ended up switching ISPs due to a line profile dispute with Bell but Teksavvy refunded me a bunch of money and went the extra mile.

Anyway give it a shot, it sounds like you're owed something there to me. If nothing else works use the direct support forum on dslreports or contact that Teksavvy goon who posts in this thread.

The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jul 11, 2011

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Argh, can you summarize? I'm not around speakers until after work :(

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Martytoof posted:

New Cogeco plan coming into effect in my area:

60GB -> 80GB :rolleyes:
$45 -> $49 (or something to that effect, don't have the paper near me)
$30 max overage -> $50 max overage :mad:

The next tier is 120GB, so I guess I need to figure out whether the price of the next tier + its overage price is more than $49 + $50 overage. If it's not I guess there's no real need to upgrade.

Be ready for a surprise - there are no overage caps on the high end packages anymore. I couldn't believe it myself but it seems to be true. So if you're on either of the two high end packages and you go over they start billing at $1.50/GB. Their timing couldn't be worse either, TPIA tariff adjustments are being sorted out right now and a few resellers have commented that Cogeco-land resale will be ready in a month or two. The new prices go into effect in October.

Anyway I can't wait to be rid of Cogeco again, they are a scummy little company. They bought some cable company in Portugal against investment advice and surprise it hasnt gone anywhere. Their quarterly financials were very weak so they're trying to pass the losses off to consumers. They should be going the other way with package pricing and traffic parity. I'm paying $115 a month for internet/phone and that isn't enough for them to make a profit on? Good riddance.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Lone Rogue posted:

Oh, I can understand that.

I meant more, "I own a business on the Internet and I only own one way to get Internet in my home and refuse to consider any alternative because since I pay money to X company they should always have the Internet working regardless of situation."

Ever thought how funny it would be if someone had no power in their home but called up TekSavvy to ask why their Internet wasn't working? According to one TSR, it has happened. More than once.

That's just the go-to residential customer response because business customers typically get treated better. I was hearing the same thing from UUNet dialup customers like 15 years ago, some things never change.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Martytoof posted:

Now I just need TekSavvy to start reselling Cogeco's cable in Hamilton :(

........ soon, right? :suicide:

I don't get how some random guy (iktel) in Niagara Falls is reselling Cogeco but Teksavvy and etc can't seem to reach a price agreement. This has been going on for the better part of two years with a resolution always around the corner but never arriving. My Cogeco bills are insane and I've been ready to jump ship for awhile now.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Septimus posted:

You do realize that teksavvy is pretty much at Bell's mercy right?

That's all fine but doesn't explain the guys other issues with their tech support which is a common story these days. Teksavvy used to be known for following up, having knowledgeable staff and generally great overall customer service but that has largely gone by the wayside as they grew too quickly without much planning.

The other guys are just as useless but Teksavvy is almost worse because at least Bell or Cogeco/Rogers can provision their own stuff. Like he experienced, with Teksavvy I was told I could only ever get a 2mbit profile at my new place and there was nothing they could do about it. They were happy enough to sign me up and take my money though. Bell is doing stable 7m+ profiles all around here by the way and the customer doesn't care whose fault it is. If you ever encounter a problem there is a minimum 2 day period where you can only hope it gets fixed, that's if the Bell guy even decides to show up. I also had to dispute $210 in Bell service repair charges billed to Teksavvy (that showed up SIX MONTHS LATER) despite the fact that they never entered the premises and missed 2 out of 3 appointments period.

I'm on Cogeco business now, $54 10mbit/640Kbps with no overage charges. Screw the DSL market, it's an annoying mess.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

spoof posted:

Is this a grandfathered plan? Their current page shows a 120GB cap on the $54 10/640 tier.

There are no overage charges or penalties for exceeding your cap on the business packages right now, it's the unofficial unlimited package they recommend as a last ditch to keep people from going to Bell (who ironically has better bandwidth overage options these days). The sales techs will tell you that if you exceed the cap then Cogeco calls you to ask you to move up but I asked around on the DSLR forums and no one there had ever received a phone call or complaint. Some of them regularly doing 400GB+ which I couldn't even hope to do, I was just sick of getting $50 overage bills because of videogame sales or etc.

The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Dec 7, 2011

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

univbee posted:

As annoying as the CRTC BS is, I loving LOVE that 2 AM - 8 AM is becoming unlimited use and frankly this is a solution that should have been in place ages ago (I know it was in Australia and New Zealand at least 5 years ago).

It's great for "downloaders" but probably not ideal for people who stream using things like Netflix unfortunately. Thankfully I'm in the former category, I can just queue up my downloads to happen overnight. It's too bad things like Steam don't have that functionality yet.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

univbee posted:

I'm Devil's Advocating this a bit since they really shouldn't have to, but considering how widespread monthly limits are becoming, I'm surprised that Steam and some other software doesn't operate more intelligently for bandwidth considerations with options like scheduling, or only downloading something once in a multi-user household (e.g. if I have 4 Windows computers at home, it should know I don't want to download a 900 meg service pack 4 times). Right now keeping on top of all this stuff requires serious babysitting to avoid taking significant chunks out of monthly quotas.

Preaching to the choir my friend :( I've been pestering Valve for awhile now on the steampowered forums to introduce Wake On Lan or dedicated scheduling functionality in Steam. I suspect they don't want people to be accidentally putting their machines to sleep but at least hide it as an option in a text file or something. With games being so big you'd figure they would at least do quotas or something, it's a little strange.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Has there been any news of Cogeco-land resale yet for Teksavvy and other providers? I thought that CRTC tariff was updated or whatever.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Start.ca looks to be doing Cogeco TPIA for all territories in Ontario starting on March 21st. The 20/1.5 300GB package looks pretty good at $49.95 a month. Anyone used them for DSL or know what their reputation is like? The webpage is a bit generic and I've never heard of them before. I'm a bit worried about these guys getting slammed by signups looking to get away from low caps and high congestion in the evenings, that's what Teksavvy is currently going through on many POIs with Rogers.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

mmm11105 posted:

Any one have suggestions for ISP's in Niagara (spec. Fonthill). Currently on a small local DSL provider (Vaxxine), who prices are great but speed and service leave much to be desired.

Can't get teksavvy as I have Cogeco lines, not Rogers.

Start.ca resells Cogeco and has a good reputation so far, you can find more info at the dslreports forums. I'm going to switch myself soon, the Cogeco starter business package is alright but the upstream is awful and its like $20 more than the equivalent Start package for me. They don't seem to have an unlimited package in the higher speed tiers but 300GB is plenty for us. The disadvantage is all of the start up fees (Modem, install, etc) could run like $100-200.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

eXXon posted:

What exactly is missing from the Canadian one that's available on the US? I tried it once with tunlr and didn't see anything I really needed to have. At the time I just wanted new seasons of Community and Mad Men; the former showed up on the Canadian one soon thereafter and I'm still waiting for Mad Men.

Marty, why would you pay for Unblock-US when tunlr does the same thing and is free last time I checked?

I don't know if you tried recently but tunlr doesn't support Netflix anymore so you just see the exact same Canadian stuff. If you hit up instantwatcher.com you can usually find a whole bunch of stuff the US site has that we can't access on the Canadian one. Just an off the cuff example, I was sick last week and felt like binging through some old Law and Order episodes. When it thought I was using a Canadian IP, displayed zero of any L&O type show. The American catalog had hundreds of episodes spanning three different series. That's just a weird back catalog example but there is a ton of stuff you can't get. It's really cheap to get unblock-us or unotelly and then you get a really respectable catalog to work with for a really small monthly fee.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

thexerox123 posted:

It definitely doesn't have everything. I did a search in that first link for The X-Files, which I've been watching on Netflix in Canada, and it didn't come up. Same with Misfits.

Yeah that's missing a lot of stuff but I remember in a previous thread someone had come up with some figures and said it was roughly 9-10% of the American catalog. That was shortly after launch so who knows where its at now though. All I know is that any time I just search for something at random using US DNS, I can usually find it. With the Canadian one its extremely rare that I ever find anything I'm looking for, to the point where I don't even bother searching anymore and just browse using the interface.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Anyone been sucessful in getting a Netflix interface that has the instant queue feature? I've tried on my PS3, WDTV Live and through a web browser with no luck. I've tried using unblock-us and I can definitely see the US content but its the same lovely app interface. It is hard to believe Netflix has been this successful when they can't even make a simple way to bookmark or queue items.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

thexerox123 posted:

Don't you have "My List"? If you hover over a show's image thumbnail on the web version, a little overlay appears that says "Add to list".

You can't queue things, but that's their bookmarking system, at least.

Nope, not in the latest version of Firefox anyway. I get an overlay but its just metainfo about the show with a link to click for "Not interested". The Netflix interface in general really sucks, huge horizontal scrolling bars with "recommendations" and no way of making your own content lists.

Edit: Yeah just talked to someone at Netflix Support, its a test cell thing limited to specific users and its "coming soon". Really frustrating, I found posts dating back to 2010 asking for this feature so I doubt I'll see it any time soon.

The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Oct 15, 2012

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Just an update, I actually got around this. Netflix sets specific flags on your account at signup time, one of them is your country code. I cancelled my old Netflix account, logged into Unblock-us, made a new Netflix account as an American and now the interface has the Instant Queue feature (PS3, Computer, everywhere). It's funny how such a simple thing transforms the whole experience too. Whenever you queue something, it gives you a list of similar recommendations so its almost like a wikipedia marathon where you end up with a big list of stuff to watch. I used to struggle to find stuff I wanted to watch with the Recommended lists before, now in one day I've built an Instant Queue with hundreds of hours of content that I like. They really need to get this feature out to the whole Canadian base soon.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Oh My Science posted:

can you still access canadian content? If so I may need to re-create my account as well.

I haven't really checked, I don't watch much Canadian specific content. Unblock-us has a toggle that lets you select which countries content you see though.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Oh My Science posted:

Could you try this out and report back? I have a few shows that I watch which are canadian only, and I would like to know if the new interface interferes with that at all.

What mediaphage said, I just tested it out. What sucks is that if you're using the CA version, it automatically gives you the CA interface without Instant Queue. When you go back to American DNS, it will give you the instant queue interface back though. So there is no way to get My List/Instant Queue without having your Canadian account specifically flagged OR just signing up as an American and using Unblock-us. Oh well, I am happy and I can just use the crappy Canadian interface for the odd Canadian show.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
You definitely have to start with an American account. Setup unblock-us first (test it detects you properly on their site) then signup for Netflix using a US address and specify USA as your country. If you don't then it will let you see US content with unblock-us but your account will be flagged with the CDN interface. I tried a dozen different ways to get around it and ultimately had to just cancel my old account and start over with a new one.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Shumagorath posted:

Wait, the US gets a different interface? Is it really that big of a deal when the content is where you'll spend 99% of your time (aside from guys like me who browse for 20min and give up)?

It's mostly the same but yes it matters. They get access to Instant Queue which lets you create a personalized set of content in no time flat and IMHO is vastly superior to Recommended Lists. You can create a set of bookmarked stuff to watch on your lunch break then dig into it when you get home instead of manually searching or trolling the recommended tabs for content. Some CDN users get it as well (its called My List) but its been in a closed trial for over two years already.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

thexerox123 posted:

FWIW, I had 'My List' for a long time, but I recently contacted Netflix support to complain about the fact that Canada isn't getting new Arrested Development, and they ended up offering to sign me up for some things they're testing... not long after, and My List is suddenly calling itself Instant Queue.

So, try contacting them and complaining? It's not necessarily a closed trial anymore.

I did, he was quoting an old post of mine. Three different support people told me they couldn't change the account interface flags so I just signed up for an american account using unblock-us and got the US interface. It's auto flagged based on your origin IP and billing address at account signup so it's the easiest way to make sure you get it.

It really made a huge difference in how much we got out of Netflix too, the ability to quickly make a big personalized queue is great. They were talking awhile ago about getting rid of it entirely for all users in favored of the recommended lists but I find the latter to be very hit and miss. I think they would have another user revolt on their hands if they tried to can the queue features too, most people in the US I've talked to love it. If anything I think they should be rushing to get it out to everyone in Canada, one of the biggest complaints I hear from people is about lack of content but the Queue + auto recommendations would probably solve that quickly.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
I love how competition in Canada means every company has the same prices and packages with minor variations on the naming convention. It's gas stations all over again. I think the only company I feel like I've gotten fair deal from in the past few years is Wind and they got such a hard time from regulators and Canadian competitors that the CEO was quoted as saying he wished they had never bothered.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
I asked a few months ago and found google posts asking service agents going back to the netflix canada launch, all saying very soon. I gave up, took 5 minutes and registered a US Netflix account. It wasn't a big deal either, I lost my recommendations whoop de doo.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
Just guessing but they service Cogecoland for cable and Teksavvy still doesn't despite years of stringing people along. At least now they've just said they can't make it work financially or some such thing.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
The CPU in those things is questionable and definitely a bottleneck point these days. I loved mine, had it like 8 years but finally retired it for an Asus RT-N66U. The AC devices are still crazy expensive and full of firmware bugs and AC won't be ubiquitous until overlord Apple decrees so I think 802.11n will be more than sufficient for a long time.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe

Stanley Pain posted:

Canceled my TSI DSL account today. 1.5 months without steady Internet is about all the goodwill I have left in me. Signed up for Rogers, who are also my employer. Stuck it out with TSI because I believed in a nice, competitive market, but at the end of the day I need to have quick turn around time when poo poo hits the fan.

Next on the chopping block is Wind and their god loving awful service. Literally the worst cell service I've ever had. Won't be sad to ditch them though.

Weird, we must have the newer HSPA+ towers out here or something because Wind is amazing in the Hamilton/Niagara region. Great coverage, rock solid, awesome speeds, etc. My girlfriend and I have both saved like 3 grand in the past few years by switching to Wind.

Cogeco raised the caps on their business tiers, just a heads up for anyone on them. They didn't talk about enforcing caps on business but such a generous lift (175 to 400GB on Starter alone) from such a stingy company makes me wonder.

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The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.
Fun Shoe
To be fair the second complaint (while probably exaggerated) is legit. Any time I have a multi-day outage I call up and get credit, doesn't matter what company it is. I can deal with some level of service interruption but there is a point where it goes too far and if I don't get credit for that then I just go to a different service.

I know what you mean though, the DSLReports forums have the worlds most rabid and demanding posters I've ever seen. It's somehow worse because companies have to be professional and treat them with kid gloves even when they're being rude little tyrants.

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