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How do I train my dog to... … not poo poo in the kitchen? … make a sound like a wookie on command? … come when I call? This thread will hopefully serve as a hub where people can ask various dog training questions. There's so much good information on this forum that it's hard to keep track of it all. So, please, ask your questions here, and I and the rest of the PI crew will do our best to answer them. I personally spend a lot of time reading up on various training tactics and working with my dog. I don't know everything, but I know quite a bit. If I've left anything out please feel free to add information of your own. Or if you disagree with anything I've said please post and let us know! __________________ Section A - Learning i - Classical Conditioning ii - Desensitization iii - Extinction iv - Operant Conditioning v - Reinforcement and Punishment vi - Positive Punishment as a Training Tool Section B - Training i - Traditional training ii - Positive reinforcement/clicker training iii - Dominance Theory iv - Learned Helplessness v - Selective disobedience vi - Training methods (luring, capturing, shaping, targeting) vii - Common training problems viii - Primary vs secondary reinforcers Section C - Tools of the trade i - The clicker ii - Treats iii - The leash (standard, training, tab, flex) iv - The collar (flat, slip, martingale, prong, head, harness, electric) v - The target stick vi - The toys (tug toys, balls, misc) vii - The crate viii - Training classes ix - Reference books x - The internet Section D - Further reading i - Recommended reading ii - Helpful posts iii - Videos __________________ An introduction to dog training ends up sounding a lot like an introduction to psychology. Because it is. If you want to teach your dog anything it would be helpful to look into how animals (ourselves included) learn. I'm going to use these first few posts to lay out a lot of the basic language that I think is important to understand when talking about training. A,i - Classical conditioning Pavlov's dog: By this point in your life you probably have at least a passing familiarity with Pavlov and his dogs. He was a physiologist who noticed that his experiment subjects would occasionally drool when no food was present – for instance, when the assistant who normally fed them walked into the room, even if he wasn't carrying food at the time. Pavlov designed an experiment that looked into the root of the dogs' responses. In phase one he would measure the dog's salivation under two situations: when meat powder was placed on the dog's tongue, when a neutral stimulus was presented (a tone, which on its own would cause no salivation). In phase two he would sound the tone and then present the meat powder several times. In phase three he would sound the tone with no food present and, whelp, the dogs still salivated. They had learned that the sound of the tone indicated the imminent arrival of food.
The process of conditioning: Neutral stimulus (tone) → Unconditioned stimulus (meat powder) → Unconditioned Response (salivation) After conditioning has occurred: Conditioned stimulus (tone) → Conditioned response (salivation) This is an important idea to understand about the learning process. The physical response is involuntary, but still occurs despite being protracted from the original trigger. This reaction can be stretched a bit by, say, pairing a flashing light with the sound of the tone, which was previously paired with the arrival of meat so the flashing light eventually increases salivation response, but the response is weaker. This is called second-order conditioning. You can normally further protract the process another few times, but you must understand that it's less effective each time. The coolest thing about conditioning, and what's most important to remember, is that the learning process happens subconsciously. It is a natural reaction of animals' brains, and it can be used to explain the occurrence of various phobias, etc. So how does this apply to dog training? Say you're out walking your dog and it sees another dog approaching in the distance and starts barking at them and generally being an rear end in a top hat. This sort of antisocial behaviour is normally born out of insecurity, and the dog has learned that if it barks and is unapproachable the other dog won't approach. The dog has been conditioned to feel that other dogs' presences are unpleasant and reacts accordingly. To bring this back to Pavlov, the approach of the other dog is the conditioned stimulus, and the barking is the conditioned response. So, well, your dog has already been conditioned to think that other dogs mean bad things. What now? Now it's time for counter-conditioning. Your goal is to change the approach of other dogs from an indicator of negative things into an indicator of positive things. You do this with food, 'cause, well, dogs love food (and they need it to live). First you need to figure out what your dog's reaction distance is. Is it when the other dog gets within 10 feet of it, or when your dog sees another dog 6 blocks away? The reaction distance is your dogs' threshold between being chill and freaking out. You want to keep the dog under threshold at all times if possible (but admittedly, this is not always possible). So, keep your distance from other dogs while you're doing this. Don't push your dog too hard. Second, once you see that other dog approaching your dog's threshold start popping food into its mouth, one piece immediately after another. If your dog won't take food you're too close to the other dog and you need to move away. Use awesome treats for this if your dog is really disinterested in taking food – steak, pizza, hotdogs, peanut butter, etc. Essentially your goal is to repeat this enough that your dog starts looking at you expecting food when it sees another dog. And your job is to provide food every single time. Important things to remember: Your dog should notice the other dog before he gets food, so he understands more quickly that other dogs = incoming food. Counter-conditioning takes a LOT of time, so expect to spend months working on this. Progress might seem slow, and there are occasional set backs, but keep at it. This is an excellent video demonstration of how successful basic counterconditioning can be: Video Link: Counterconditioning a dog who acts aggressively when blown on This is an interesting point made about counterconditioning (CC) made by Patricia McConnell. Patricia McConnell posted:CC isn’t about training anything, it’s about pairing a very low intensity stimulus that evokes fear with a high intensity stimulus that evokes a positive emotion. For example, a dog afraid of strangers would be CC’d by having a visitor stand outside the door (low intensity because they don’t enter the house) and toss pieces of chicken (high intensity). Over time, and lots of repetitions, the dog’s emotional response to the food becomes attached to the visitor as well. A,ii - Desensitization Systematic desensitization is often coupled with counter-conditioning. It's used by psychologists to treat people with anxieties or phobias. The subject is exposed to a fear-evoking object or situation at an intensity that does not produce a response. Intensity can be modified via the degree of realism, proximity, etc. Intensity is gradually increased contingent on the subject continuing to feel okay. A,iii - Extinction In general, a conditioned response will gradually disappear if not reinforced through the process of extinction. For instance, if Pavlov stopped offering meat powder after sounding the tone for a period of time, the dogs will cease to salivate since the association between the tone and the food is no longer being reinforced. This is why ignored behaviours often stop since the dog is no longer being reinforced for providing them. However, some behaviours are self-reinforcing, and therefore very difficult to extinguish. For example, a dog often finds barking to be a pleasurable response to various stimuli (barking is FUN!) so even if you ignore a barking dog they're very unlikely to stop this behaviour since they're reinforcing it themselves. That's not to say that you can't train a barking dog to be less barky, but it requires a different approach than to ignore it. (Thanks to Rixatrix for this section.) A,iv - Operant conditioning Operant conditioning accounts for most of what we learn every day. In classical conditioning, the neutral stimulus and unconditioned response are predictably paired, and the result is an association between the two. (Then the conditioned stimulus triggers the conditioned response.) Stimuli occur before or along with the conditioned response. But dogs (and humans) also learn many associations between responses and stimuli that follow them – between a behaviour and its consequences. Operant conditioning is all about consequences, whether they're good or bad. Learning is governed by the law of effect which states that if an action is followed by a satisfying effect the action is more likely to be repeated the next time the stimulus is present, and if an action is followed by an unsatisfying effect it is less likely to be repeated. The subject learns by operating on the environment, hence the term operant conditioning. In classical conditioning the conditioned response does not affect whether or when the stimulus occurs. Pavlov's dogs salivated when the buzzer sounded, but the salivation had no effect on the buzzer or on whether food was presented. To contrast, an operant has some effect on the world. A child says “I'm hungry” and then is fed, the child has made an operant response that influences when food will appear. If a dog sits and then is fed, the dog has made an operant response that has also influenced when food will appear. A,v - Reinforcement and punishment There are four quadrants of consequences that follow a response in operant conditioning. They are positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment. A reinforcer increases the likelihood of a behaviour happening again, and a punishment decreases the likelihood of a behaviour happening again. The term “positive” means you're adding something to the environment, “negative” means that you're taking something away from the environment. To clarify:
Negative reinforcement (R-): A negative reinforcer is when you take something away from the environment to increase the likelihood of a behaviour repeating itself. Example: upwards tension on a leash is released once a dog has sat after being asked to sit. Positive punishment (P+): Positive punishment is adding something to the environment to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour repeating. Example: When you reprimand a dog for jumping up on visitors. Negative punishment (P-): Negative punishment is when you remove something from the environment to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour repeating. Example: Putting a dog on “time out” after jumping up on visitors. Here in Pet Island we like to focus primarily on R+/P- quadrants. We like to reward good behaviour and ignore bad behaviour. If bad behaviour is ignored (and not self reinforced) then its occurrence will decrease. (See the Extinction section in A,iii for more information.) A,vi - Positive punishment as a training tool I had someone come up to me a while ago and when I asked how their new pup was fitting in they said things were going well, but the pup was having a hard time understanding what "no" meant. Apparently she (the puppy) would tug at clothes and generally freak out in that special way puppies do, and no amount of, "no no no NO NONONONONO" would stop her. Strange, eh? Dogs don't understand "No" very well. Try to define what "No" means. "No" has so many diverse applications -- dogs have difficulty keeping track of them all. When it comes to dog behaviour, there are so many wrong answers out there, and so few right ones. So instead of saying "NO", why not tell your dog what you want it to do instead? Instead of saying, "don't bark at visitors" try saying, "when people come over I want you to lay in this bed." Try giving your dog the right answer. You'll find many of the dog-induced headaches will go away if you tell your dogs what to DO, not what NOT TO DO. This also applies to other types of positive punishment, like leash pops, spanking, poking, etc. The more intense the aversives become the more fallout you risk creating. Dogs may not understand why they're being hit, the same way they may not understand why you're saying "no" at them. They may momentarily shut down (see learned helplessness, section B,iv) and stop the naughty behaviour, but they may not understand why they've been punished. They may think they're being hit because of behaviour A, whereas you were actually reacting to behaviour B. And as soon as you have a dog not understanding why they're being punished, well, you as an owner and a handler have just become a source of unpredictability and stress. It's really easy for us as people to focus on the negatives and overlook the positives. With dog training you really have to do the opposite: you want to constantly show and reward your dog for doing the correct thing. This way you offer your dog the structure which it craves. Well, what if the dog is doing something it shouldn't? When this happens I tend to feel that once a dog does something you don't want it to do, you, as a trainer, have lost the game. As a trainer I always try to be one step ahead of my dog and catch bad behaviours before they actually start and refocus her before she screws up. a life less fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Aug 14, 2011 |
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B, i - The schools of training - traditional There are two basic schools of training when it comes to dogs. "Traditional" is more pervasive, and has been used for many years. There is a new training methodology emerging that sets itself apart from what was previously thought of as normal: "positive reinforcement". Traditional, or balanced dog training tends to be very hierarchically based, where a trainer tends to take a very no-nonsense approach with their dogs. They expect a dog to listen and obey commands lest risking punishment for non-compliance. This is a very corrections-based method. You'll often find a lot of people using terminology like “be the alpha” in conjunction with these training styles and the two ideologies are closely related. Rewards also exist in this methodology, but often they're pats or verbal praise in lieu of food rewards. There is the concern that reliance on food to train results in reliance on food for compliance for the rest of the dog's life, and that a dog may not obey in situations where no food is present. Ever pop your dog's leash? That's an traditional training method. It is a correction for the dog misbehaving in a situation where it can be expected that the dog knows what it should be doing, but is doing something else instead. The general idea behind these methods is that you first teach a dog to do something, then you punish it for not complying if necessary. (Personally I feel that the teaching is often rushed, and a dog does not always know why it is being reprimanded.) These tactics can and do work, but they can also be misused and abused. In soft-tempered dogs, or already anxious animals you might find the animal shutting down when faced with the stress added by the handler. Popular old school dog trainers are Cesar Milan, Brad Pattison, and Don Sullivan. Certain training schools also adhere to these methodologies. One of the most popular and widely spread schools is Bark Busters. Here's some thoughts on traditional training by one of my favourite trainers Susan Garrett: Susan Garrett posted:Traditional training has us believe that a dog diving towards a distraction is "wrong, naughty, headstrong, stubborn, willful, bad, stupid..." There are a number of labels given to a dog who is simply motivated by a distraction. B, ii - The schools of training - "purely positive" The "purely positive" school of dog training is reward based, founded on the basic principle that you reward desirable behaviours to increase the frequency at which they're offered. You use reinforcers like food, play and praise as rewards to lay the groundwork for positive associations and future training. This new school of training was developed to work with a wide range of animals, from bears and lions to whales and rats. I'm sure you're all aware, but it's not recommended you alpha roll a bear, and leash popping a whale is difficult, to say the least. A better method of communication and training had to be developed, as physical coercion simply cannot occur with some species. Instead of punishing undesirable behaviour we create joy and enthusiasm for the correct behaviour. Solutions to struggles in "purely positive" training 1. Redirect (ideally without reinforcing) 2. Management - can be shortterm, or for the duration of your dog's life 3. Fix (overcome) This new school of dog training normally goes hand in hand with a tiny handheld device called a clicker (more information about the clicker is available in section C). Prior to its use, there was some discussion that methods of delivering praise and reward did not inform the animal of successes with enough promptness and precision to create the required cognitive connections for speedy learning. The response was the clicker. It is a unique sound that the animal only ever encounters as a mark for good behaviour that is more reliable and precise than a human voice can ever be. These techniques have been used with whales, bears, lions, as well as domestic dogs and cats. It's a faster, more reliable way to communicate to your animal. The click is used to mark a split second of a behaviour and communicate that a reward is on its way. I'll speak a bit more about using a clicker in the “Tools” area in section C. The positive reinforcement that this methodology is based on is excellent for working with quiet dogs, or dogs lacking self confidence. Popular new school dog trainers are Victoria Stillwell, Pat Miller, Susan Garrett, Jean Donaldson and a bunch of other people you've probably never heard of. Check out this video as an introduction to clicker training. What Is Clicker Training? by Kikopup (youtube link) Here are some popular misconceptions about new school training: The dog won't perform without food present: This is a popular problem people have. The issue is that the handler is not fading out the food lure fast enough when teaching a new behaviour. The idea is to fade out the lure quickly, and to reward on a variable rate of reinforcement so the dog is never sure when it will receive its reward. The dogs become fat with too many treats being provided: Yes, you'll be giving your dog a lot of food. But you don't always have to use treats. For 95% of the training I do with my dog I use kibble, and if I'm doing an intense training session I'll skip my dog's meal and feed it to her one at a time as rewards. B, iii - Dominance and dog training Have you ever heard someone refer to themselves as their dog’s “alpha”? How about being told that if your dog does X then it’s a sign that it’s exerting dominance over you? Now, if you hear people saying as much you can quietly roll your eyes for the following reasons: Dominance theory is based on flawed studies performed on captive wolves in the 1960s, and basic brute force prior to then. There have been many studies that display that dogs do not operate under a dominance hierarchy. Dogs' social structure is more fluid. Association of Pet Dog Trainers posted:One of the biggest misconceptions we find ourselves faced with is the definition of "dominance." Dogs are often described as being "dominant" which is an incorrect usage of the term. Dominance is not a personality trait. Dominance is "primarily a descriptive term for relationships between pairs of individuals." and moreover, "the use of the expression 'dominant dog' is meaningless, since "dominance" can apply only to a relationship between individuals. (Bradshaw et al., 2009) The idea is that dominance is never elicited forcefully, rather it is voluntarily given. What we often consider “dominant” traits are often anxiety-based behaviours that can and do intensify if addressed with force. I believe that what is commonly referred to as dominance is just a feature of a relationship, not a personality trait. While there is some form of hierarchy present in dogs' interactions I feel that it has limited application in dog training. Most problems are not caused by dogs conniving to overthrow their masters and even if a problem is caused by a rank dispute, it can be solved through the application of the learning theories anyways. All animals are subject to the laws of learning. So, forget about dominance theory – regardless of whether it exists or not it’s completely irrelevant. Your goal when addressing behavioural issues is to focus on what the dog is currently doing, and figure out what we want the dog to do instead. Then we help the dog understand what’s expected of it by rewarding desirable behaviours. “Alpha rolls” and “scruff shakes” are not only unnecessary, but they can damage a dog’s trust in its handler and can intensify the already-present anxiety. This article says it better. If you have anyone who’s a bit stuck on dominance theory it’s a good thing to show them: http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx/ Here's another quote from someone who said it better than me: quote:Dominance, within ethology (or animal behavior), is defined as a relationship between individuals that is established through force, aggression and submission in order to establish priority access to all desired resources (food, the opposite sex, preferred resting spots, etc). A relationship is not established until one animal consistently defers to another. I find it unsettling how many behaviours are contributed to dominance and the true behaviour is not addressed because of that. Making a dog walk behind you, eat after you, not sit on the couch or submit to you in every way is NOT going to address a biter whose bites are triggered by touch or a reactive or aggressive dog. Once you take off the dominance-coloured glasses, you can stop looking at what it is in the makeup of the dog that causes the behaviour and start really looking at the behaviour. You can go from saying "Dog A attacks Dog B because Dog A is dominant" (very vague) and start saying "Dog A attackes Dog B when Dog B walks too close to his food bowl" Now you have gone from interpreting the behavior to describing the behavior. The fact is, I wouldn't want to interpret even a humans's behavior because I can't know what they are truly thinking, I know I have no hope of interpreting a dog's behavior. But if you know that event 1 triggers event 2, then you can start to change things. However, dogs need structure and routine, and they need to know what's expected of them. B, iv - Learned helplessness Learned helplessness is a term that means a condition of a human or animal in which it has learned to behave helplessly, even when the opportunity is restored for it to help itself by avoiding an unpleasant or harmful circumstance to which it has been subjected. In short, the animal has given up on helping itself. It's a sad state of affairs. Learned helplessness is sometimes the result of harsh training and over-correction. If a dog is constantly punished for not behaving accordingly (and remember that the dog might have no idea what “accordingly” is) it might give up on ever trying to figure it out. That is the primary reason why I infinitely prefer clicker/positive reinforcement training since it rewards the dog for trying new things. If you have a creative, enthusiastic dog there's really no limit on what you can teach it. Here's one of my videos of Cohen when she was one year old to show the fruits of positive dog training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-JAVttIV-g B, v - Selective disobedience One major criticism of dogs trained primarily with positive reinforcement is that they’re selectively disobedient. It makes sense – when few reprimands are given the dog is not scared of making a mistake and incurring punishment. A lot of people who train improperly can’t get their dogs to behave without waving a treat in front of their noses. And to these people I say, YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG. The goal of positive reinforcement training is to lay the groundwork for good behaviour when you’re out in the real world and away from your bait bag. You do this by quickly fading lures and utilizing a varied rate of reinforcement so the dog’s never sure when it’s getting a reward. When you’re beginning you can maybe get 3-5 behaviours for a treat, but veterans can expect to get 50+ without pausing to feed/reward. The other key aspect of maintaining obedience without threatening punishment is that you have to do some work to convince the dog that they want to do what you want them to do. Convince them that it’s their idea. I’m really not too sure how to describe this, but in order to achieve success with this you have to know your dog very well, and have a good working relationship with them. You really must go out of your way to relate well to your dog. B, vi - Training methods: There are a couple basic training methods: luring, capturing, shaping and targeting. Luring: This is when you have a piece of food in your hand and you slowly move your hand in such a way for the dog to follow it. For instance, slowly moving a treat above your dog's head to get him to sit, or moving the treat to your left side to get the dog into heel position. This is normally the fastest way to achieve a new behaviour, but is not the best for retention. Capturing: This is when you capture a behaviour your dog offers or does in day to day life. For instance, you can capture a bow that your dog might do while stretching after a long nap. You do this by marking the behaviour you want with either a click or a marker word (followed by a treat) to communicate to your dog that it was desirable. This is probably the slowest way to teach a new behaviour, and the dog retains the training moderately well. Shaping: Shaping is when you mark successive incremental changes in behaviour as they approach your end goal. Say you want to teach your dog to pull a lever. You can do this by shaping it from the ground up. Start by rewarding your dog (with a click or marker) if he looks at the lever. Do this a few times. Then hold out on the treat when he looks at the lever and wait for him to approach it. Repeat. Then wait for him to touch it. Repeat. Mouth it. Repeat. Etc until you've built the behaviour you were looking for. This can be very time consuming, but the dog will retain the information much better since he's actively taking part in the learning process. Targeting: Targeting works similarly to luring, however instead of asking your dog to follow a piece of food, you're asking your dog to follow a target, which can be your hand, a target stick, a mousepad etc. Targeting works on the principle that "If I touch the hand I will get a treat", compared with luring works like "I want that treat so I will follow it". The dog has learned previously that a reward will be provided after touching the target, so the target isn't a primary reinforcer (see the section below on information on primary/secondary reinforcers). A great usage of this behaviour is if you have a dog who's been known to bite if disturbed from the couch (bite inhibition and/or resource guarding), you can teach him to move from your seat on command by asking for him to target something on the other side of the couch so you can manipulate the dog both without bribery and without touching it then rewarding for good behaviour. This is a very fast way to teach positioning once you've taught your dog how to target the desired object. (Thanks to Rixatrix for suggesting the addition of this subject.) B, vii - Common training problems: 1. Human mechanics of training (poor application of timing, criteria, reinforcement) 2. Not planning ahead or having the proper tools 3. Sudden/new environmental challenges 4. Mismatch between current level of dog training skill and puppy's level of challenge. 5. Over training, lumping, or having unrealistic expectations. 6. Poor socialization or other junenile trauma 7. Too narrow in your training focus (not yet taking in the little details) 8. Fear of making a mistake causes you not to move forward - frustrating the puppy 9. Conflicting rules within the household 10. Genetics, breed, hard wired responses and stage of maturity. Most of these boil down to human error. B, viii - Primary vs Secondary reinforcers: Reinforcers are, as you know by now, a response to a dog operating on its environment that will increase the likelihood that a behaviour will repeat itself. Reinforcers can be broken down into multiple categories: Primary. A primary reinforcer is providing something that the dog wants in reaction to a desirable behaviour. These can be food, toys, access to other dogs, getting to go outside. Not all dogs value the same things, but food is the most universal of all primary reinforcers, and is most commonly the strongest. This is why food is used so often. Secondary A secondary reinforcer is a click or marker word which signals the imminent arrival of a primary reinforcer to which the dog has been classically conditioned. Tertiary A tertiary reinforcer (or tertiary bridge) is a signal that the secondary reinforcer is on its way: "Good, keep doing that and you will get a click." An accomplished trainer will likely use all of the above reinforcement techniques. Primary reinforcers are instantly gratifying and very strong. Secondary reinforcers are intrinsically less gratifying and slightly weaker, and so on. However once you move into secondary/tertiary reinforcers you're able to achieve much more precise, advanced behaviours that would otherwise not be available to you if you focused entirely on primary reinforcers. (Thanks to Rixatrix for this section.) a life less fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jul 11, 2011 |
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Section C - The Tools of the Trade So, no discussion of dog training would be complete without going over the basic tools. I've tried to cover all tools below, though some I recommend more than others. C, i - The clicker  This is the best of the best in dog training. It is a tiny, inexpensive plastic case with a metal tongue inside. You press it. It clicks. Pretty simple. Clicker training is when you classically condition your dog to associate the sound of the click with an incoming treat (like Pavlov's bell). So when the dog hears the click it knows a treat is incoming. You use the sound of the click to mark the INSTANT your dog does something you agree with. It's faster and more consistent than your voice can ever be, and it taps into the dog's subconscious and speeds learning. Karen Pryor was instrumental in the development and proliferation of clicker training. Here is what she says about why clicker training is so effective: http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training posted:Why is clicker training effective? Here's one of my videos of an example of what you can achieve with clicker training. You should be able to make out the sounds of the click over the music, and you can see me holding a clicker in most frames. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrtww7CPf0c To start out, you want to "charge" the clicker. This means that you're going to spend some time going click/treat click/treat, giving your dog a treat immediately after you click. (The unconditioned stimulus becomes the conditioned stimulus.) You'll want to do this ~20 times in a row at first, maybe 4-5 times a day so you build up this association between the click and food in your dog's mind. The biggest thing to remember is that you will always be pairing a click with a reward for the rest of your dog's life. If the click becomes unassociated with the reward then it becomes white noise to your dog, and it will hold no meaning. (See Extinction, Section A,iii.) These are some good sites for those of you getting started with the clicker: http://www.clickersolutions.com/, http://www.clickertraining.com/ C, ii - The treats  The best training treats are small and soft so they're easy to handle and your dog can eat them quickly. Some people use liver treats, steak, unspiced lunch meats, cheerios, carrots or whatever your dog really likes. Experiment with a bunch of different things, and keep track of favourites. Pull the favourites out when you're working on new or important behaviours. My dog works for kibble, which is great. If I'm training her I'll skip her breakfast and give it to her over the course of the training session. If your dog eats 100 kibble pieces in a meal, that's 100 training opportunities. (Some dogs are less than enthralled with kibble -- it depends on the dog.) Since you'll be using a high volume of food while starting out, it's recommended that you use very small treats. Dogs don't care about the size of the cookie, they care that food is being provided. It's my impression that it's the act of being presented with food that is the most rewarding part for dogs. Most, if not all, treats you buy at a store are going to be too large for training. Even "bite sized training treats" are normally 2-3x too big. Aim for your rewards for larger dogs to be roughly the size of a pea or pinky fingernail. For smaller dogs you can use rewards the size of a pin's head. Trust me, your dogs will be psyched anyways. This is one of the reasons why so many trainers who clicker train have sleek, healthy, not-overweight dogs. The dogs are working for their meals, and/or are being rewarded in very tiny portions. For particularly good behaviour, your jackpot rewards can be 5 tiny pieces of food. To a dog, five tiny pieces is much more rewarding than one piece five times the size. However I find that for some "expensive" behaviors you need to have something better - if your dog performs a difficult recall in a distracting environment, give ten small treats instead of one, or a whole pig's ear, etc. [Thanks Rixatrix!] C, iii - The leash (standard, training, tabs, flexi) The standard leash  Leashes come in a bajillion different colours and materials. The leashes best for training are about 4-6 feet in length, sturdy, easy for you to grab, leather or nylon. Training leash  A lot of the time when it's recommended you have a training leash it means a long, lightweight leash to allow your dog more freedom outside. You can either hold it, or let your dog drag it. These are normally nylon. Leash tab  Leash tabs are short little handles you can attach to your dog's collar. I didn't find a lot of use for these until I started taking agility classes. Now I love them. My dog is off leash while navigating the obstacles, but when I need to hold her still it's just a little more convenient than grabbing her collar. Flexi lead  Flexi leads are retractable long leashes on a spring mechanism. These are NOT RECOMMENDED for the following reasons:
C, iv - The collar (flat, slip, martingale, prong, head, harness, electric) Flat  The flat collar is the most basic of dog collars. It either buckles or latches like a belt, and it lays flat on your dog's neck. These collars are comfortable and make good everyday collars for ID tags, licences etc. *** It is not recommended you ever keep your collar on your dog if you aren't watching it. *** It sounds silly, but accidents happen. Always make a point of removing your dog's collar if you're crating it or leaving the house. (Always ensure there's no way the dog could get loose without ID tags.) Slip  Slip collars are commonly referred to as choke collars, or choke chains. They are not recommended. The idea behind them is that when your dog misbehaves you "check" him with a swift yank and release of the chain. There is a risk of damaging a dog's throat while using these, even when using them properly. Improperly used you can risk limiting a dog's air flow and doing significant damage. Martingale  Martingales are a hybrid between a traditional collar and a slip. The "slip" portion can be either chain or fabric which can tighten when force is applied. These collars are recommended for sighthounds and other dog breeds with heads smaller than their necks since these collars will tighten instead of letting the dog slip out. These can also be used as slip collars are used, with a quick check of the leash. They're an improvement over the typical slip since they will only tighten so far. However, using these collars in this way is not recommended. There are more effective methods of training that don't rely on leash pops. Prong  Prong collars are designed similarly to martingales where they check the dog when pressure is applied to the collar. The prongs inside add additional discomfort so a dog is likely to avoid putting any pressure on it. Suzanne Clothier, who no longer uses prongs in training but wants people to use them correctly, says (emphasis hers): Suzanne Clothier posted:"When properly fitted, the prong collar should be at roughly the mid-way point on the dog's neck, with the chain portion flat, not sagging. Beware those who recommend fitting a prong collar (or any collar) up high, near the dog's ears - their intention is to cause pain by putting the collar in this nerve rich, muscle poor area of great sensitivity." Read the whole article here. It has some good information on successful prong collar training. [Link and quote of Suzanne Clothier provided by Instant Jellyfish. Thanks!] They can be an effective tool to teach loose leash walking, however they MUST be used in conjunction with proper training (not just as a crutch) or the dog is not likely to behave the same way if on a different collar. If you use this collar please remember to remove it before letting your dog off leash at the park. I see a number of dogs playing with these on, and it's not a good idea. Head  Head collars fit around a dog's nose and around the back of their head. They latch either below the jaw or behind the ears. These can be a good tool to control an over-excited or rambunctous dog. If a dog puts pressure on the leash it will only serve to turn its head. These are not muzzles. Be prepared to answer a lot of questions about why your dog is in a muzzle if you choose to use one of these. Be very very careful to never apply swift pressure if a dog is wearing a head collar -- you risk torquing the neck and causing serious damage. Again, as with the prong collar, these are a training tool, and should be used in conjunction with proper training. Try either Canny Collar or Sporn Collar. They're both head halters that attach to the leash behind the dog's head, instead of under the chin (like Haltis or Gentle Leaders). They're preferable to the under the chin designs since there's less risk of injury to the dog's neck if sudden pressure is accidentally applied to the leash. Harness  Harnesses come in a few basic designs -- front clip and back clip. Back clip harnesses are more common and traditional. These are great since they put no pressure on a dog's neck and can be very comfortable to wear. Front clip harnesses are used as tools to alleviate pulling (see image above). If a dog puts pressure on the leash it will only serve to turn its body away from what it's trying to focus on. Again, as with the prong collar, these are a training tool, and should be used in conjunction with proper training. If you're looking for a no-pull harness, you can try the Easywalk or the Sensation (there are many other brands though, so don't limit yourself). I prefer the Sensation over the Easywalk since I find it tends to provide a better fit in the front. Electric  Electic collars, or e-collars are a highly specialized training tool and SHOULD NOT BE USED without proper, face to face training with an accomplished professional. Also, the use of these collars is outlawed in certain areas (Wales, for instance). They deliver an electric shock (aka nick) or a buzz (aka a page) to varying degrees upon the handler keying it into the handheld controller. They range from a tiny shock that feels like a warm sensation, to a HOLY GOD THAT HURT shock meant to "put a dog down" if it's getting into trouble (for instance if a dog starts chasing after game in the field, putting itself and others at risk). These collars have their place in teaching advanced behaviours while at a distance from the handler -- most notably hunting. They SHOULD NOT be used to teach basic obedience, or in lieu of proper training techniques. They're very susceptable to being misused (and the dog abused), so they should be approached only after thorough research. C, v - The target stick  The target stick is a tool that can help build behaviours. I've not used one before, but I'm seriously considering it now that I've watched this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgefxJAjXSM I'll probably make one out of a tip of a fishing rod with some masking tape on the end. Read the section on targeting (Sec B,vi) for the basic idea behind its use. C, vi - The toys (tug, fetch, and others) Toys can be an excellent primary reinforcer. Some dogs are more nuts for toys than food, so use it to your advantage! Toys tend to build drive and excitement, whereas food rewards tend to have a calming effect. Tug  Some dogs absolutely love playing tug. Tug is a great game, and minute for minute, is probably one of the fastest ways to tire your dog out. Some trainers recommend not playing tug for silly reasons (dominance), but I think it's a great option as long as you have a degree of control over your dog. For instance, when I play with my dog, I'll periodically ask her to drop it, and when she complies I reward her with MORE TUG OMG. Dropping it is important, but it shouldn't always signal the end of the game. Fetch  "Fetch" toys (for lack of a better word) can help dogs run themselves ragged. Balls, frisbees, etc are great to play fetch with. I reward my dog with a kibble for almost every retrieval she does to further increase the value of the game. I do this since she's not as crazy about chasing balls as some dogs, but I didn't want to miss out on such a valuable way to drain energy. Miscellaneous  There are some weird dog toys out there. Experiment with a bunch to see what your dog reacts to best. Pictured above is a flirt toy which can help engage a dog's prey drive and tires it out very quickly! C, vii - The crate  Crating is a good way to limit your dog's access to the house when you can't supervise them. A crate should serve as a den -- a safe, warm, happy place they can go to when they're feeling tired, stressed, etc. Some countries do not allow their use, and some people consider them cruel. But used as part of a training regimen they can be very helpful. Dogs who are crate trained handle boarding better, overnight vet visits, etc. Crates are also almost a necessity at dog shows and sporting events. Pet Island's Puppy Megathread goes over the process of crate training in detail. C, viii - The training classes  Training classes are a fantastic way to train your dog. But they don't really train your dog, they train you how to train your dog, which is infinitely more helpful in my opinion. Training classes offer a controlled environment to work with your dog. The more time you spend working with your dog the better a relationship you can have with them. Training classes cover a vast array of subjects, from the most basic of puppy obedience, tricks, off leash skills, etc to competitive sports like competitive obedience, rally, agility, nosework, dock diving, herding and more. I highly recommend you look into classes regardless of how accomplished you might be. There's always someone better out there who can offer you insight on things you might otherwise have missed. The hard part is finding a suitable training facility. The general rule of thumb is to determine whether they use positive reinforcement techniques, and whether the instructor has any advanced performance titles on their dog(s). C, ix - Reference books  When in doubt, read. There are loads of helpful dog training books out there. I've included the names of a few in Section D. C, x - The internet  This is an overlooked resource. Youtube is an amazing place. If you're stuck on a trick or behaviour, search it up on youtube to receive a dozen different videos suggesting a dozen different ways you can teach it. Of course, like anything, there's loads of poo poo interspersed with good advice, so you'll have to determine what will work for you. My favourite youtube dog trainer is https://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup -- check her out. a life less fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Nov 10, 2010 23:39
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Ooh, a book section here. Thanks for taking the time to put this together!
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Nov 11, 2010 06:14
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Excellent thread. Hopefully this will encourage more intelligent discussion of the training methodology. 
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Nov 11, 2010 06:45
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AWESOME thread, thank you so much.  Perhaps I can direct my friend's roommate who's having trouble with her pit to some of this stuff.
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Nov 11, 2010 06:50
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I have badly poisoned my recall cue with Rho to the point I can’t work with him anymore (i.e. train the things I’d like to). He won’t come when called and will slip away from me if I try to reach for him or bribe him to come to me with a treat (had to try both yesterday in a difficult situation). If he’s off-leash and I hide from him, he doesn’t care. If he’s on lead, he’ll just sniff around; on a short leash he’ll just stare at something that isn’t me and sigh loudly. If I wait him out, he’ll maybe offer a glance in my direction, but won’t take treats or play with me. I realize this is all my own doing, but it’s really challenging working with a 16-month old intact male dog that is very independent, but soft to +P coming from me at the same time. The recall cue got poisoned when I twice yelled in a strict voice for Rho to stop and come to me when he was taking off to greet another dog in the middle of agility practice. Apparently at the same time agility practice wasn’t reinforcing enough for him (treats/play not good enough, rate of reinforcement not good enough, distractions too difficult). My plan at the moment: 1) no more off-leash time, recall training on long lead 2) first week: food only from responding to name, starting at home and gradually adding distractions 3) second week: food only from responding to (new) recall cue 4) counter condition collar grab 5) I’ll stop yelling at Rho, minimize possibilities for bad situations such as him running for another dog and aim for as little (unintended) +P as I possibly can. Challenges: I’m frustrated and tend to lose my cool easily. Rho isn’t that food motivated. Kibble isn’t a reinforcer for him and I can’t feed him only treats for weeks on end. Rho plays well, but isn’t interested in playing with me at the moment. Biggest challenge: he’s a teenaged intact male. He’ll spend hours licking the floor if a bitch sat on it. Any comments and suggestions welcome. I really need to make this work so I can stick to my plan to start running him in trials next summer.
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Nov 11, 2010 11:08
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That's a tough call. When you say "food only from responding to x..." are you meaning meals or treats? I know you say he's not interested in kibble as treats, but I'd probably go hardcore NILIF and make him work for every piece at meals. I can empathize about losing your cool easily -- sometimes it's tough to keep playing nice when your dog is out being a total rear end in a top hat. All I can say is that getting visibly frustrated and angry has ZERO benefit (and hence only goes to furthering your frustration) when working with your dog. I've had a few instance where I've just been irritated at Cohen and she's picked up on it, and as a result she is much more difficult to handle. But when I make the conscious decision to flip it around and be sweet as pie to her, the way she responds to me immediately improves. Maybe it's me, maybe it's Cohen, but I just can't bully her around (and ohgod sometimes I want to...). So, see if changing the way you approach Rho helps. It's worked for me, but there's a far cry between a desexed highly biddable Aussie and your more independent, intact boy -- I can understand if you still have trouble. As for your plan, it sounds like you've got it right. I'd work hard to classically and operantly condition his name as a focus cue, and to keep up the reinforcement daily and for a long term. To do it classically, offer food and say his name the moment the food touches his tongue. To do it operantly, say his name and offer a reward each time he orients to you. Do this maybe a hundred times each day for a few weeks, and then you can decrease it to something a bit less, but keep it up for the rest of his life. Good luck! ---- bamzilla or Khelmar, in the off chance you see this, could you modify the thread title to "How do I train my dog to... [Dog Training Megathread]" or something like that? That'd be swell!
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Nov 11, 2010 15:01
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a life less posted:That's a tough call. When you say "food only from responding to x..." are you meaning meals or treats? I know you say he's not interested in kibble as treats, but I'd probably go hardcore NILIF and make him work for every piece at meals. Alternatively I was thinking of getting some chicken hearts and boil them for treats for the dogs, then spice Rho’s kibble with the chicken heart water. He loves it, but it’s also horribly disgusting to handle. You wouldn't believe how hard I'm kicking myself over all this. The worst part is knowing I brought this all on myself.
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Nov 11, 2010 15:26
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Sure thing. This is a nice, thought-out thread. quote:Excellent thread. Hopefully this will encourage more intelligent discussion of the training methodology. This is definitely what we need to see happen around here.
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Nov 11, 2010 15:28
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Rixatrix posted:Thanks for your comments. I mean food altogether. Rho's not very food motivated and if I feed him AND try to train him with food, I know it won't work. So yeah, I'm going hardcore. I know he'd prefer to be raw fed so I'm thinking of getting chicken necks and cutting them to bits. I've done it before, yes it's disgusting, but it worked for Pi. If I try it with kibble, I'm afraid Rho'll just starve himself until I lose it and just give him the drat kibble in his bowl. Chicken wings/necks may get his attention better. Is there something that's the most rewarding thing in the universe for him? With Major I used a gross dried pigeon wing on a very variable schedule. Just once or twice a day call him over and whip out that wing and let him sniff/nibble it for a couple of seconds. You probably do this already but also doing recalls on walks or offleash time and then letting him go back to playing can be highly rewarding. Don't be afraid to bring out the really stinky stuff for important commands. I bake up a big batch of beef liver every couple of weeks even though it makes my house stink because Major will do anything for it. I mix it up with kibble treats too so he never knows what its going to be and he's not eating a pound of liver in a training session.
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Nov 11, 2010 15:54
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This is an awesome thread! Not only does the R+/P- method work on dogs but it also works on kids and cats (and probably most other animals too). I've had pretty good success training my one year old cat to respond to commands. Right now he's more or less mastered "come here", "get off", "high five", and "sit". We're working on "down", "stay", and "speak" currently. Hammer loves clicker training. Every time I bring out the clicker he starts purring. He's a good little man  . Hopefully he'll be jumping through hoops like Trophy one of these days. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfAW0JFmvJ8
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Nov 11, 2010 16:37
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Maybe not really a "problem" per se, but there's a trick I'd really like to teach to our pup (a 2,5 year old berner). I'd like her to go and fetch her food bowl on command. Admittedly it's because I'm lazy and her crate is literally at the other end of the house from the kitchen. She knows basic commands, sit, down, come etc but nothing complicated and honestly I suspect she's really dumb. It took her a week to learn down with succesful repeats every day. She has really good memory tho, once she finally catches on she will remember. Very food motivated, which is actually a huge problem when trying to get her to concentrate on what she should be doing. Teaching her fetch took ages because of this, she just wouldn't touch toys when food was available even tho she carries them around otherwise. I haven't reinforced fetch in ages tho, she used to do it on command but always seemed to think it was a really dumb activity. She also doesn't respond well to verbal cues, they seem to get mixed up. With hand signals things generally go pretty smooth. I tried teaching her this trick before, but just ran out of creativity. Would this require a clicker? I was kinda thinking of trying one out anyway at some point, so I'm not really against the idea. I'm pretty sure the bring part wouldn't be a huge problem, since she has learned fetch before. But I just can't make her interested in taking that stupid bowl into her mouth. I'm pretty sure I'd get her to lick the side if I smeared some butter on it, but how would I progress to her actually picking it up? Maybe I should leave the bowl and teach her a pick up command with toys, like picking up whatever I'm pointing at? Then try to apply it to the bowl? She's very delicate with her mouth, always very careful about anything strange or not known food. Oh and on a tangent, any tips on making her understand a verbal recall? She doesn't recognize a recall unless she sees the person calling her, I've seen her just standing, listening and looking really confused when someone out of sight is calling her. Usually a problem outdoors where echo and distance seem to warp the voice.
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Nov 11, 2010 17:07
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Great thread! a life less, those videos are awesome. I hope that we can pull off that kind of training with Psyche. I have a question about the best way to utilize time-outs. We try not to do positive punishment with Psyche, but we need a way to teach her that she shouldn't bark when she wants something. We've taught her to use a bell when she wants to go out and to sit when she wants to be pet, but she doesn't always go to those things first. Sometimes, especially when I'm sitting at my desk working, she comes up to me and puts her paws on my armrest. I ignore her because she should sit for attention, but it just escalates to pawing, barking, nipping and mouthing, and jumping on my lap until she finally remembers that she needs to sit or go to the door. All of those things I could ignore (though the trainer said we shouldn't tolerate any nipping or mouthing), but barking means angry neighbors, so we try to put her in a time-out in the bathroom until she calms down. The problem is, I'm not sure she knows why she's getting put in the bathroom. The transition from biting/barking to bathroom may be too long. Sometimes she's more calm after, sometimes she jumps right back into barking at me (which is occasionally deafening for such a little dog). We also give her time-outs in her bed when she barks at people in the hall and this works well, but when she's barking at us, she just continues barking from her bed. I know that more exercise would help and I've been lengthening her walks and outside training sessions. She's a little barky dog (a bitchy one too, she regularly talks back to me) though and we need to nip that in the bud as much as possible and also teach her that her teeth should never be on people, which is why we were trying timeouts when she uses extreme methods to get attention. Any suggestions are welcome!
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Nov 11, 2010 19:05
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Suncut posted:Maybe not really a "problem" per se, but there's a trick I'd really like to teach to our pup (a 2,5 year old berner). So, I'm sort of in the middle of teaching my dog to retrieve her leash, but I've only been training it half-heartedly so we've not achieved success yet. I always recommend people try a clicker. But you have to understand it's just a marker, just like a "yes" or a "good" or whatever you use for the dog. It's just a bit more precise. If you watch your timing a clicker isn't a necessity, but it will definitely help. So, you want to break the behaviour down into steps. I would create this behaviour mostly through shaping. I'd probably do this in the living room or somewhere comfortable and where the bowl isn't normally placed.
The basic idea is to teach your dog that the bowl is a valuable object, and that she will be rewarded by trading this valuable object to you. As for the verbal recall, what you want to do is to break it down into steps the same way I broke down the bowl retrieve. Start somewhere uninteresting, like your bathroom. I like to bend down at the waist and shuffle back a bit, while at the same time bringing my arm into my chest and saying "come". (Does that make sense?) The bending and shuffling should physically cue your dog to come, and you will condition your dog to associate the sound and the arm movement to mean the same thing. Then start adding distance and distraction, upping the difficulty each time. You're essentially going back to square one to associate the verbal with the physical. Personally I never really separate the two. I would also do as I suggested to Rixatrix a few posts up and classically/operantly condition her to respond to her name. If you successfully do this her name will mean that she's going to be getting a treat, and she should haul rear end to you to get one. Recall should almost always result in a really awesome treat since it's one of the most vital cues you can teach them.
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Nov 11, 2010 19:13
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Is there something that's the most rewarding thing in the universe for him?  Spay/neuter your dogs, folks.But seriously, thanks for your comment. Gross isn't a problem for me, but I've yet to find something Rho goes absolutely nuts over. I know this will get better with time as he matures mentally, but drat if this stage in his development isn't the most frustrating thing ever.
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Nov 11, 2010 20:12
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a life less posted:... Thanks for the reply! This is really what I feel is the hard part, I just can't think of anything I could do to make her mouth the bowl. Any suggestion on the breaking this step further apart? I gave up at this point last time. I got her to touch the bowl when asked, but nothing I did made her the least interested in mouthing it. I'll grab a clicker anyway next time we stock up on doggie food, and play around with it because it sounds like fun. I think I was maybe a bit vague on the recall thing and got misunderstood. She has a pretty good recall, combination of a verbal cue and a physical one and is more than happy to obey. But once she can't see the physical cue and the verbal cue gets distorted she just doesn't understand it as the same thing. She responds to verbal only cue over short distance/indoors, but over longer distances she only understands the physical one. I had fogotten this part earlier actually, but when you call to her when she is 100/200 meters away and can see you she just looks at you stupid, but as soon as she sees the physical cue she will come running. My mum has a theory that she just doesn't know where the sound is coming from when she can't see the person calling, which might or might not be true as well. The echo is really bad once you have to shout to be heard because of the lakes. I know she can't find people once she gets lost from them on a walk and she hears them calling and is desperate to get to them. She's been this way since she was a pup, in other words somewhat stupid. I wouldn't dream of walking her off leash anywhere she doesn't know the (safe) way home from because of this. Which is the forests of our summer cottage basically. She defaults to the start of the route/ home once she gets lost and is just too happy when you finally come to get her. Did I mention she's adorably stupid? Never gets up to any mischief because it never occurs to her! Maybe a dog whistle? She might still not know where the sound is coming from, could at least recognize it. Do whistles get distorted by echoes? On hindsight maybe the whole question was kinda stupid.
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Nov 11, 2010 20:19
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Suncut posted:Thanks for the reply! So, because I had nothing better to do this afternoon I put together this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE9FzkGouA8 It's an unedited recording of me introducing Cohen to picking up/retrieving a bowl. You can see how I managed to encourage her to interact with the bowl, and how I rewarded her for experimentation. Mouth grabs were given hesitantly since the bowl is metal and not a lot of fun to pick up. But by the very end I was getting grabs/lifts, and that was just a 7 minute session. It would probably have been easier if I were holding the object, but I didn't want to have to focus both on that and the camera. If you see her do the behaviour she's been getting rewarded for, but don't hear me click, it's because I decided to try upping my criteria. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes I have to backtrack a bit. She's done the "look at that" game before, so starting her off was pretty easy. I've also gotten her to step on/in a few different objects, which is why she kept putting her feet in. I just rolled with it. At the end she was getting a little tired/impatient, so it probably would have been wise to cut the session shorter. Also, she'd just had a bath, in case you were wondering why she looked bedraggled. Clickers are fun!
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Nov 11, 2010 22:35
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Kiri koli posted:
I can think of a few things. First, how quickly are you putting her in time out after misbehaving? From what you said it sounds like you let it escalate past barking or past the first bad behaviour. It's tough when you live in an apartment building since I think it's common for dogs to bark while on time outs, and you can't let that go on too long lest your neighbors get angry. You can try using a leash tied to a coffee table (or something similar) for your time outs if the bathroom doesn't work. Honestly, I think the bathroom will end up working better, but it's worth a try. Also, what about giving her the sit command when she's barking or behaving inappropriately? If it doesn't work once, get up to "reset" the exercise and ask for it again. It kind of sounds like she doesn't exactly know that's what she should be doing, even though you think so. And if she does, why has she decided that barking/mouthing is more effective than a sit at soliciting your attention? Were you not rewarding her thoroughly enough for the preferable behaviour? Lastly, look into teaching Psyche calming cues. These are a lifesaver with Cohen. It's essentially a command that means "calm yourself the gently caress down". You start teaching these when your dog is nice and relaxed, maybe getting ready for a nap. You come by and just pet her, massage her, and do anything else that might be soothing for her. Pair it with a nice, sloooow word, like "eaaaaaaasy" (I use "shhhhhhhh..."). Do this each time you're massaging her and the word will begin to be paired up with the mindset. It takes a while, but eventually you can use the word to calm her down a bit if she's bouncing off the walls. I use it when Cohen gets the zoomies and starts barking her head off at me.
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Nov 11, 2010 22:46
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a life less posted:So, because I had nothing better to do this afternoon I put together this video: This video is perfect because it really does show you how magical the clicker is. Seriously it's like voodoo mind control only it's pure science.
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Nov 11, 2010 23:01
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I love Cohen's thinking noise
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Nov 11, 2010 23:05
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Jestopher posted:This is an awesome thread! Not only does the R+/P- method work on dogs but it also works on kids and cats (and probably most other animals too). I've had pretty good success training my one year old cat to respond to commands. Right now he's more or less mastered "come here", "get off", "high five", and "sit". We're working on "down", "stay", and "speak" currently. Hammer loves clicker training. Every time I bring out the clicker he starts purring. He's a good little man I hope this isn't off topic 'cause it's cats, but I've recently gotten a clicker and started training my kitty to do stuff. It's awesome, because she will totally work for diet kibble, as long as it's only a few minutes at a time. She could already stand up, and now she holds up a paw on command, but I'd like to teach her to sit. I'm having trouble figuring out how to do this, as she tends to stand up when I put a treat above her at all and I don't want to train her out of standing up. How'd you start with your cat? Also: a life less, thanks for making this thread. It was watching some of your videos that inspired me to expand my cat's repertoire to more than the stand up command.
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Nov 12, 2010 04:27
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a life less posted:So, because I had nothing better to do this afternoon I put together this video: You don't need to take brakes with Cohen very often, do you? Something I constantly run into with my dogs is that they absolutely need their breaks every 5-10 clicks or so. Otherwise they'll just stop offering behaviour and/or wander off. This makes shaping slower. The same thing applies with finished behaviours, except they get fed up more easily with repetition. And it's not because my rewards aren't reinforcing enough, because that's also something I need to balance: kibble doesn't work and the really good stuff will frustrate them, because oh god give it to me NOW!! I'd really really want to get that bc/belgian just to see how different training would be with a more biddable breed. Editing to add a question: yesterday at our Schutzhund obedience class (or "class", it's more a bunch of people training together) Rho couldn't focus at all, because he was to busy reinforcing himself for being a hormone-induced little monster by sniffing the ground with abandon. The same happens any time we are somewhere other dogs have been recently. I'm trying to premack the sniffing (which seems to work, hooray!), but I also need a way to tell Rho that self-reinforcing with sniffing isn't acceptable. How do I do this? What is a dog-friendly way of stopping him once he tries to sniff without approval? There's nothing I can offer him that's more rewarding for him at the moment. I'm really not into leash pops or the like and I know he thinks wearing a Gentle Leader is +P of the worst kind. Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Nov 12, 2010 |
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Nov 12, 2010 07:10
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Rixatrix posted:You don't need to take brakes with Cohen very often, do you? Something I constantly run into with my dogs is that they absolutely need their breaks every 5-10 clicks or so. Otherwise they'll just stop offering behaviour and/or wander off. This makes shaping slower. The same thing applies with finished behaviours, except they get fed up more easily with repetition. And it's not because my rewards aren't reinforcing enough, because that's also something I need to balance: kibble doesn't work and the really good stuff will frustrate them, because oh god give it to me NOW!! I'd really really want to get that bc/belgian just to see how different training would be with a more biddable breed. a life less posted:B, v - Selective disobedience a life less, I have to say, I disagree with you on this point. Although obviously the ultimate goal of any training is going to be solid obedience no matter if a reward is involved or not, but this is VERY different with different breeds of dogs. This is why we all say you can't use one blanket technique with every breed. If that were the case, it wouldn't matter what dog people got when they haven't had experience or are used to one type of dog (say, a sporting dog over a spitz). I don't mean any offense or anything, but you've only had experience working with a breed that is one of the highest on the charts for biddablility. Your dog has it ingrained in her DNA that she wants nothing more in life than to work, go over multiple repetitions, and please, please, please her owner. Spitz dogs, like Rho, literally do not give one poo poo what you want when they decide there's something else they'd rather have. This is going to sound harsher than I mean it, I'm sure, but this is why you need to be firm with these breeds as opposed to being all positive all the time. It's not that you want to use harsh corrections or anything, because obviously that'll be counter productive since the dog'll just say, "gently caress you, you're boring, I'm outta here," but (as PFox mentioned in the Primitive Breeds thread) your dog has to know your serious, like the tone you'd take with a disobedient 4 year old. You need to strike a balance between reward and correction, because reward on its own won't do, these dogs get bored and sick of you. Rixatrix posted:Editing to add a question: yesterday at our Schutzhund obedience class (or "class", it's more a bunch of people training together) Rho couldn't focus at all, because he was to busy reinforcing himself for being a hormone-induced little monster by sniffing the ground with abandon. The same happens any time we are somewhere other dogs have been recently. I'm trying to premack the sniffing (which seems to work, hooray!), but I also need a way to tell Rho that self-reinforcing with sniffing isn't acceptable. How do I do this? What is a dog-friendly way of stopping him once he tries to sniff without approval? There's nothing I can offer him that's more rewarding for him at the moment. I'm really not into leash pops or the like and I know he thinks wearing a Gentle Leader is +P of the worst kind. Honestly, you may not like this advice, but you need to be able to keep him from sniffing around. You want to come up with a command for it (we use "Leave it, Lets Go" and "Walk Nice" depending on if he's falling back or pulling forward) and you might want to start working on it when you have the ability to walk around freely, so your class might not be the best time (although you'll want an area like that with lots of other dogs and good smells). We naturally developed ours out on walks. If Buddy started sniffing something too much and veering off, I'd give him the command and give a tug on his leash to bring him back in. If he left what he was sniffing, all is good and we'd be on our merry way. If he kept it up, though, I'd put him into a heel and hold his collar. This made the walk VERY boring, because he wouldn't get to sniff ANYTHING then. After he was walking nice for a little bit, then, I'd give him a release command and let him continue on ahead. His freedom is his reward in this case. I've also taught him "Out of the Grass" using this technique, for areas where the grass may be full of nasty stuff or it's people's lawns I don't want him peeing on. It would obviously be best if you could figure out a good smelly treat that he loved, because ideally you'd be able to not only give him freedom for being good, you could give him treats to help him keep his focus on you. If you do find something he's motivated for, you could work on a "Watch Me" command to get him to immediately focus on you, too, but you may already do that, sniffing can sometimes just bee too interesting.  Also, before your class, see if you can give him some "free" time ahead of time to run around the field a bit and get a good sniff of the area where you're working. See if you can get his sniffing out of his system, because if the smells aren't new, he's more likely to focus on you when you're training.
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Nov 12, 2010 13:32
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WolfensteinBag posted:a life less, I have to say, I disagree with you on this point. Although obviously the ultimate goal of any training is going to be solid obedience no matter if a reward is involved or not, but this is VERY different with different breeds of dogs. This is why we all say you can't use one blanket technique with every breed. If that were the case, it wouldn't matter what dog people got when they haven't had experience or are used to one type of dog (say, a sporting dog over a spitz). I don't mean any offense or anything, but you've only had experience working with a breed that is one of the highest on the charts for biddablility. Your dog has it ingrained in her DNA that she wants nothing more in life than to work, go over multiple repetitions, and please, please, please her owner. Spitz dogs, like Rho, literally do not give one poo poo what you want when they decide there's something else they'd rather have. This is going to sound harsher than I mean it, I'm sure, but this is why you need to be firm with these breeds as opposed to being all positive all the time. It's not that you want to use harsh corrections or anything, because obviously that'll be counter productive since the dog'll just say, "gently caress you, you're boring, I'm outta here," but (as PFox mentioned in the Primitive Breeds thread) your dog has to know your serious, like the tone you'd take with a disobedient 4 year old. You need to strike a balance between reward and correction, because reward on its own won't do, these dogs get bored and sick of you. I want my bc/mal because I want to see what training and competing would be like with a dog that can take repetition and has more of a natural inclination to view working together with the handler as worthwhile. Also I'd like a dog that's not as soft to +P coming from me as Rho is. I'm not and don't want to be heavy-handed with my dogs, but god drat Rho keeps surprising me with what he thinks is horrible dog-torture inflicted on him by me. WB, thanks for your comment, preventing him from sniffing exactly what I plan on doing. I just feel that physically restraining Rho from sniffing might do more harm than good, since I suspect it might make him dislike the whole training situation and I might poison working with me for him even further.
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Nov 12, 2010 14:03
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WolfensteinBag posted:a life less, I have to say, I disagree with you on this point. Although obviously the ultimate goal of any training is going to be solid obedience no matter if a reward is involved or not, but this is VERY different with different breeds of dogs. This is very true, and I agree with you to a certain extent. I only have limited exposure with other breeds of dogs, and I've also experienced the frustration when new dogs aren't as biddable as my own. However, I'm going to stick to my guns to a certain extent here and say that the goal of positive reinforcement is to eventually wean the dog off the dependence on treats, and only use them as a nice little bonus from time to time (or when training a new behaviour). It's a lofty expectation, but I think that too many dog owners sell their dogs short on what their dogs can accomplish given the right set of expectations. It's up to the individual dog owner who, say, owns a spitz or a sighthound, to ascertain what their dogs are able to accomplish without selling their dogs short. I think what I envision is the difference between waving a piece of food around and saying "Sparky, come! Come! Come!" and calling for your dog to come and THEN rewarding with food. A dog can expect a reward, but the reward has to come after the behaviour is given. Does that make sense? Rixatrix, I'm going to reiterate what WolfBag has said. The easiest way to approach this is to not let him sniff in the first place. The longer he spends sniffing the more difficult it's going to be for you to interrupt his behaviour. I know he's a hormone addled teenager, so easier said than done, but... I've spent a lot of time with Cohen building up a good Leave It command. She's at 90%+ compliance when she's close to me, but once distance (from me) and duration (of sniffing) are increased she's much, much less reliable. The only way I've gotten a reaction I'm satisfied with is by preempting the sniffing. (And again, my dog will kill for a kibble, so it's easier for me than it will be for you.) Rixatrix posted:You don't need to take brakes with Cohen very often, do you? What you see in that video is fairly normal. She's good at working pretty hard for a solid length of time. In that video I probably spent a bit too long on the one behaviour, however. Normally when I'm teaching her something new we'll spend a few minutes on the new stuff, and then reduce the difficulty by going over old stuff as a "break". I've heard something described as "the rule of 7" or something like that. It was from this woman working with her border collie. Each time she went to grab a handful of treats she would grab 6-7 at a time, work through that handful, and then take her time going to get the next one. Is that the kind of break you're talking about? Again, as WBag says, I'm very lucky to have a dog that likes to work with me as much as she does.
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Nov 12, 2010 14:05
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a life less posted:The easiest way to approach this is to not let him sniff in the first place. The longer he spends sniffing the more difficult it's going to be for you to interrupt his behavior a life less posted:What you see in that video is fairly normal. She's good at working pretty hard for a solid length of time. Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Nov 12, 2010 |
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Nov 12, 2010 14:37
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Perfect timing for the thread! A month ago we got Blanka. She's a mixed-breed, about 1½ years old rescue. The main problem seems to be insecurity, mainly defending the home by barking. The foster home said she didn't bark inside at all. At our house it took three rings of the doorbell for her to learn to bark at that. She also barks very selectively at some of the noises outside, mostly to our knowledge the next door neighbours going in and out. We share stairs with them to the second story. They say they don't even hear her barking. On the other hand, the neighbours below us said they hear her, but don't mind it, since it's normal for a dog to bark. We've been too lazy at training the doorbell and other noises from outside. We did make a protocol of her going to her place and staying there when the doorbell rings. She still might bark some, but we give her a special treat to enforce the commands and the fact that it's nice when we go to answer the door. There hasn't been much doorbell action now, and we think the fact that noises → bark → no one comes in or goes to the door is reinforcing the barking. Last night was the worst yet, the first time she's barked at night (despite the fact that we sometimes come home from work at around 3am), and I couldn't make it stop. I'm sick with flu, my man was at work, and eventually after maybe 5 minutes of barking (and trying to stop it in different ways) I gave in, waited for seconds of silence, took her to our hall, where she got quiet, and took her out. I was so frustrated with Blanka, even though I know it's our fault if we can't/haven't handled the situation well. Then this morning, she did some of the same, escalated barking despite us shutting her with us to our bedroom to sleep, further from the door outside, but clearly not far enough for her to hear the noises. We mostly tried to shoo her out of our room, wait for her to get silent for long enough, then open the door and find her laying there looking at us. It didn't seem to work perfectly, but it was the best we could think of while trying to get some sleep. So, what we're planning on doing is recruiting friends to come up the stairs, move around, ring the doorbell etc while we're giving Blanka treats and praising her. We don't think just making noise and getting her used to it would work, at least not unless we're ready to go at it for a long long time. We think we need to practice every day, maybe 10 minutes at a time. The friend helping would not come inside until we've got a good grip on just the noises (after weeks?). Does this sound like a good plan or do you have some advice we could use? We'd also like to get general advice on stopping the barking in unplanned situations. So far we've been trying to call her to us with a happy voice, make her do commands and treat her. We thought getting up suddenly or yelling at her to shut it would make it seem like we're concerned too. We've tried acknowledging the barking, too. We haven't been totally consistent with what we're doing, since nothing seems to work consistently. But if you tell us to try this or that, we'll stick with it long enough for it to start working. We just haven't had that much faith in any of the methods. Someone suggested teaching her to bark on command, then teaching her not to, and not reinforcing the barking when offered without command. We're worried she'd start offering the barking for food, but if this seems like a good idea, tell us. For regular training we use her own food (Canidae ALS), since she works for that and there's so much to teach, but for difficult situations we use tiny pieces of cheese, lungs etc. She's quite food motivated, and a big part of her daily portion comes from practicing commands. This is already a novel, but there's been some instances of momentarily guarding and barking once or twice at our guests, male guests almost exclusively. We can tell more about that, if needed. Those situations defused all right. Questions and advice are welcome. We'll definitely be practicing the soothing behavior. And we didn't know about quickly fading out the lure, that's useful information too! Here's a picture from when we first met. She scared me demanding treats while my attention was elsewhere.  Click here for the full 427x640 image.
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Nov 12, 2010 18:13
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Hiekka posted:A month ago we got Blanka. She's a mixed-breed, about 1½ years old rescue. The main problem seems to be insecurity, mainly defending the home by barking. A lot of people make the mistake of trying to build a behaviour/consequence chain rather than attacking the issue on an emotional level (operant conditioning vs classical conditioning). I would work at classically conditioning new responses. Make a list of triggers. Whenever these triggers are presented, feed her face. When the trigger appears, food starts. When the trigger disappears, food disappears. Read over the example I gave at the end of the classical conditioning post at the top of this page, and every time I mention "other dog" replace that with "mysterious sound" or whatever sets her off. It doesn't matter what she's doing when the triggers appear (barking, most likely). The only thing you really have to ensure is that she's a) noticed the trigger, and b) she's not so far over threshold that she no longer takes food. If she is over threshold try increasing the distance from the trigger the next time around. This takes a while to achieve, but it will work if you're consistent. So, it sounds like you're on the right track. I just wanted to clarify the steps for you. Edit: Also, if you're having trouble quieting her down, I think you made the right decision to take her out to the hall to show her. It acknowledges her discomfort, and can assuage it a bit by being able to check it out with you. I do the same thing from time to time. a life less fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Nov 12, 2010 |
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Nov 12, 2010 19:08
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a life less posted:A lot of people make the mistake of trying to build a behaviour/consequence chain rather than attacking the issue on an emotional level (operant conditioning vs classical conditioning). You're right. It's so simple, back to basics. Somewhere there we had the idea of noises = food = good, but then we made it unnecessarily complicated. She seems so intelligent that we were asking for too much. We were trying to get her focus on us with commands, not asking for her to be quiet for food. So we were almost there, but not really. It seems so obvious now, but you get so tangled up in irrelevant thoughts, like "should I call her to me to get the treats so she doesn't think my sudden movement means there really is something to be scared of" etc. Thanks for the reply, we'll focus on just treating her regardless of other things from now on. I'm sure there'll be more questions with time, and I'll be happy to ask again! Part of the problem is, though, that we don't nearly always hear the triggers, so in uncontrolled situations we don't know when it starts (except for the barking) and when it stops. Maybe we'll learn to tell from her signs.
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Nov 12, 2010 19:34
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a life less posted:classical conditioning Just be careful you don't train her for 'I hear sound, I bark, I get treat.' This is why most people try the operant conditioning approach in this situation, waiting for even the smallest pause in barking to begin the reward.
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Nov 12, 2010 19:47
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wraithgar posted:Just be careful you don't train her for 'I hear sound, I bark, I get treat.' That's very true. Right now the goal should be making the dog feel better about the sound. When a dog sees/hears something that bothers it it starts freaking out and is no longer operant. It's physically impossible for the dog to learn at this point, as it's just reacting. When you get to a point where your dog becomes operant that's the point where you start training a quiet cue. But it really needs to come after conditioning the emotional reaction.
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Nov 12, 2010 19:49
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Hm, I'm wondering if that could have helped with Eris (and possibly still can). We've always attacked her barking problem from the perspective of "click+treat if she obviously heard the trigger but didn't react, move her into the room until she quiets down otherwise". I was always too afraid of teaching her that barking in response to the trigger was correct to risk treating her while she was excited.
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Nov 12, 2010 19:58
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Everyone with a barky/reactive dog should watch this video. It's one of the simplest and best examples of counterconditioning that you can find. Counterconditioning a dog to blowing on its face, Dr Yin
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Nov 12, 2010 21:26
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a life less posted:Everyone with a barky/reactive dog should watch this video. It's one of the simplest and best examples of counterconditioning that you can find. Wow. This is great, and it also completely rebuts my previous statement. This thread rules.
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Nov 12, 2010 21:43
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Okay, the answer seemed so clear until the reality hit us. The problem is that we can practice the conditioning just fine when we set the situation up ourselves, but we honestly can't hear the stimulus that upsets Blanka most of the time when it happens spontaneously, so we worry we are rewarding her for barking. She usually is in a state where she can take orders somewhat well, and this is probably why we've been using them, to not reward the barking. Right now she is barking/whining at me for treats more than because there would've been something to guard against. As I said, she's pretty intelligent. It's hard to know when to stop rewarding when you don't know the stimulus for sure (though we usually hear the next door open/close at some point, so we have a suspicion it's those sounds). She can still stay alert and barking after the immediate stimulus is gone, because she's upset. Would it help at all to move onto the normal kibble after a while, giving it for commands? Do we just have to bear with this and try to make the controlled training sessions so frequent (many many times a day) that they'll outweigh the spontaneous situations? At this point, she's still whining/barking at me for food. She started this after a couple of times today with barking at an (partially) audible sound. Now I really don't know anymore if she's just trying harder to get the food or hearing something, because she's barking more consistently. And it's almost midnight here. Oh god, how do I bear with this until we've got it more under control? Right now I'm redirecting her to a toy while typing with one hand... and that only worked so far. Sorry, neighbours  I'm just worried the moment she takes her attention from me, she starts barking again. Trying to get her attention back when she stars the alert/barking behaviour. But I'm already using tomorrow's kibble and will have to sleep at some point! Take her out, come back in, hope she doesn't bark again? And by the way, I tried showing her there's nothing there. Didn't work this time, but maybe there's something she's reacting to. It's Friday night, there are people around. I just have a hard time bearing the more serious barking fits that have only started yesterday night. Mostly because I worry about the neighbour that hears us. I just have to think that it's a temporary situation and I'll apologise and explain we're working on it. Hiekka fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Nov 12, 2010 |
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Nov 12, 2010 22:30
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WolfensteinBag posted:a life less, I have to say, I disagree with you on this point. Although obviously the ultimate goal of any training is going to be solid obedience no matter if a reward is involved or not, but this is VERY different with different breeds of dogs. This is why we all say you can't use one blanket technique with every breed. If that were the case, it wouldn't matter what dog people got when they haven't had experience or are used to one type of dog (say, a sporting dog over a spitz). I don't mean any offense or anything, but you've only had experience working with a breed that is one of the highest on the charts for biddablility. Your dog has it ingrained in her DNA that she wants nothing more in life than to work, go over multiple repetitions, and please, please, please her owner. Spitz dogs, like Rho, literally do not give one poo poo what you want when they decide there's something else they'd rather have. This is going to sound harsher than I mean it, I'm sure, but this is why you need to be firm with these breeds as opposed to being all positive all the time. It's not that you want to use harsh corrections or anything, because obviously that'll be counter productive since the dog'll just say, "gently caress you, you're boring, I'm outta here," but (as PFox mentioned in the Primitive Breeds thread) your dog has to know your serious, like the tone you'd take with a disobedient 4 year old. You need to strike a balance between reward and correction, because reward on its own won't do, these dogs get bored and sick of you. There are difficulties with different breeds and animals, and there is certainly no question that you may be able to achieve results faster or more easily using a different technique, setting aside any questions of whether or not different techniques are as mentally and emotionally healthy or whether or not certain techniques can be built upon to make further training easier than the initial hurdle. The simple fact is you can train any kind of animal with operant conditioning. You can train bears. You can train goldfish. You can train insects. Insects. The real point isn't that it is positive in how we, emotional humans, think of it - happy, cheerful. But positive as in beneficial, or getting something you want or need, or "better than the alternative". Luminous fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Nov 12, 2010 |
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Nov 12, 2010 22:42
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So how exactly should potty issues be dealt with? I have a puppy that's just under 6 months old and he pretty much craps wherever he wants. When he needs to pee he usually goes to the door and so we don't have many of those accidents but it just seems like he doesn't even try to go outside or hold it with number two. He never has any problems in his crate though.
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Nov 12, 2010 23:31
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Hiekka posted:Okay, the answer seemed so clear until the reality hit us. The problem is that we can practice the conditioning just fine when we set the situation up ourselves, but we honestly can't hear the stimulus that upsets Blanka most of the time when it happens spontaneously, so we worry we are rewarding her for barking. She usually is in a state where she can take orders somewhat well, and this is probably why we've been using them, to not reward the barking. Right now she is barking/whining at me for treats more than because there would've been something to guard against. As I said, she's pretty intelligent. It's hard to know when to stop rewarding when you don't know the stimulus for sure (though we usually hear the next door open/close at some point, so we have a suspicion it's those sounds). She can still stay alert and barking after the immediate stimulus is gone, because she's upset. Would it help at all to move onto the normal kibble after a while, giving it for commands? Do we just have to bear with this and try to make the controlled training sessions so frequent (many many times a day) that they'll outweigh the spontaneous situations? At this point, she's still whining/barking at me for food. She started this after a couple of times today with barking at an (partially) audible sound. You sound panicked. So take a deep breath and relax. (It's possible she's picking up on your stress, too.) Firstly, it sounds like you're getting ahead of yourself. It takes a lot of time to countercondition properly. I think you have the right answer about doing many many training sessions a day. I'm going to copy/paste part of my addition to the Small Dog Megathread barking section that might apply here. a life less posted:
So, aside from slowing down and not expecting to conquer your dog's barking quickly, I would also suggest upping the exercise she's receiving (as well as some of the other suggestions above). As for the attention barking, you're really just going to have to ignore it. Or you can try training it away the way you were doing before (rewarding for silence) but I'm not 100% sure it's the right approach. (It's hard to tell these things over the internet.) My guess is that if you're able to tire her out more the demand barking will diminish. BiohazrD posted:So how exactly should potty issues be dealt with? I have a puppy that's just under 6 months old and he pretty much craps wherever he wants. When he needs to pee he usually goes to the door and so we don't have many of those accidents but it just seems like he doesn't even try to go outside or hold it with number two. You just answered your own question. At least partially. Housebreaking has been gone over in great detail in the Puppy Megathread, so check it out for more elaborate answers. The basic idea is that when your puppy is out of his crate you're going to have him tethered to you so he can't sneak away and poop in another room when your back is turned. Throw a crazy loving puppy party when he does eliminate outside, and ignore when he has "accidents" inside. If you can't watch him, he should be in his crate. Also, mark down the times of day that your pup poops, and once you've determined the pattern then you'll be able to take him out according to his schedule. It's normally after meals. A fast paced walk does wonders to get the bowels moving.
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Nov 13, 2010 00:56
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