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a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

panictheory posted:

So I have a quick question. What is the best age to start advanced training with a puppy? Do they respond to the clicker at an early age or should that be saved until they are more mature?

Puppies can have sit and down mastered by about 10 weeks. Stay and come happen soon after that. What sort of advanced training are you thinking about? Walking at heel on leash is probably the hardest thing to achieve -- it takes a good ~6 months of consistent work to get it almost perfect. Everything else can be mastered pretty early.

Regarding clicker training, it can be tough to learn how to use it properly (timing, etc) so if you start young both you and your dog can learn together. :3:

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panictheory
Aug 9, 2006

a life less posted:

Puppies can have sit and down mastered by about 10 weeks. Stay and come happen soon after that. What sort of advanced training are you thinking about? Walking at heel on leash is probably the hardest thing to achieve -- it takes a good ~6 months of consistent work to get it almost perfect. Everything else can be mastered pretty early.

Regarding clicker training, it can be tough to learn how to use it properly (timing, etc) so if you start young both you and your dog can learn together. :3:

It's important, for now, that she learns heel, come, stay and drop it. We have a large gated backyard that has a variety of fun wildlife for her to chase after, so being able to tell her to stop what she's doing and come sit next to me is going to be important. We also have a great dog park here in town and I want to be able to bring her there and know she will listen to me!

I'm curious how you keep track of all the tricks you've taught Cohen. Do you keep some sort of a training journal?

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

panictheory posted:

It's important, for now, that she learns heel, come, stay and drop it. We have a large gated backyard that has a variety of fun wildlife for her to chase after, so being able to tell her to stop what she's doing and come sit next to me is going to be important. We also have a great dog park here in town and I want to be able to bring her there and know she will listen to me!

I'm curious how you keep track of all the tricks you've taught Cohen. Do you keep some sort of a training journal?

Yeah, from time to time I update a list I have. Last count, she's at about 60 different commands, but it's not been updated recently. The videos I put together also help me keep track of what she learned when.

I recommend, on top of working on the commands you mentioned, work on basic self control exercises, like waiting to eat a meal, sitting before entering and exiting the house, and "It's Yer Choice" drills. (Sorry for the unsolicited advice, I know you didn't ask for suggestions specifically.)

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS
Oct 3, 2003

What do you think it means, bitch?
I do hope it won't be too problematic to cross-post this here, it seems a very good spot for it. If it is, I will remove it.

I have recently become interested in perhaps pursuing a career as a dog handler for police/military/contractor (drug/bomb sniffing dog, etc.). Unfortunately, information on such a path seems to be rather sparse (after perusing the usual search engines) and so, thus far, do open positions. Still, I figured I'd ask SA as I figured there's bound to be someone out there who knows more about this.

I fully anticipate being let down by finding out this won't really be feasible for me for any number of reasons (it's a pattern I've got going, but I digress), but I figured I might as well try to learn more before I can make the call one way or the other.

I've been around dogs my whole life and currently have a hound and he is awesome. I am a dog person, I think it safe to say, and think that this might be something worth exploring (not grooming, etc.). Now, this may seem like a silly basis for something to pursue as a career, but I'm currently in accounting and have had at least two other shots into career fields that have more or less failed, so my mind wanders a good bit. I don't often come across anything that piques my interest, so when I do, I try to look into it a bit more.

Basically, I'm starting from scratch here. I have a basic knowledge of dog training (mostly the older style with hunting dogs), but no clue whatsoever as to how to get into this field. As I understand it, one path is to join the armed forces (which is really not feasible for me, owing to some health problems) or perhaps to go through a police academy, although that doesn't guarantee landing in this position at all. Still, this doesn't really answer what sort of training and whatnot one might need, much less where/how to acquire it. While I am not opposed to training and the like, I don't really want to go back to school right now (assuming a criminal justice degree might help). I put in 6 straight years from my bachelor's to my master's (history, failed path #1) and am still fairly well burnt out.

Still, it seems that once a person has the basic skill set required to train and then "handle" a working dog, getting into a position to do this should be fairly easy, but I could be completely wrong. So basically, I am leaving this open to ask anyone if they would please enlighten me about this field. You have my sincerest thanks in advance.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

B!G_$W@NG@ posted:

I have recently become interested in perhaps pursuing a career as a dog handler for police/military/contractor (drug/bomb sniffing dog, etc.). Unfortunately, information on such a path seems to be rather sparse (after perusing the usual search engines) and so, thus far, do open positions. Still, I figured I'd ask SA as I figured there's bound to be someone out there who knows more about this.

As with most dog training careers, I think the best place to start would be tracking down someone who trains both sport dogs (Schutzhund) and personal protection dogs (PPD)/police dogs and apprenticing under them. It's probably a difficult field to break into, and my guess is that it operates heavily on word of mouth. Start asking around sporting dog groups to see if you can track down any names of PPD trainers.

It probably would take years to become well versed enough in high end dog training for you to be able to move on to police/military/contractor work. Sometimes your best resumé is your own dog. If you can start work on Schutzhund/scenting with it you might be able to start networking that way.

So, my impression is that it's not a field you just start in. It's likely a long process that won't be financially rewarding until you hit the upper echelons (if then). But, if you do opt to pursue this path, network network network.

Edit: I spoke to my boyfriend, who's familiar with how the police work, and you have to be an officer before you can interact any way with the K9 unit.

a life less fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Nov 20, 2010

REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS
Oct 3, 2003

What do you think it means, bitch?
Cheers. If you ever get around to opening your own place and need someone with a master's degree to use as a lackey, you know where to find me. I can't believe I missed the career thread though. Mighty observant of me :doh:

Fat Dio
Feb 27, 2010

I'm trying to train my roommates' puppy but my daily schedule is pretty inconsistent due to classes and homework. I'll have some days with several hours free to train, and some days with maybe 20 minutes, and I'm more likely to use that time to play with him or go for a run just to blow off some steam so he isn't insanity personified in the evening. The puppy is a 4 month old MinPin X Chihuahua.

Am I unintentionally doing damage by trying to get a lot of obedience and basic manners training in one day, then having a few days where I can't do all that much? How long is too long a training session for his age? I'm getting a clicker soon, but have been using mostly "Good boy!", tiny pieces of cheese, and kibble and he's responding fairly well. He's a quick learner but I'm worried I'm confusing him by having really full days and really empty days, and also some confusion from his owners and my other roommate not really following the "rules".

So far he sits without any food reward, when he knows I have treats he'll come when he's called and we're working on "stay" and good leash manners, and I've asked everyone not to give him any attention unless he's sitting calmly so he got that figured out really quick. He'll run up to someone and sit in front of them as soon as they enter the room.

I want to get the basics (sit, stay, come, drop it, leash manners) down, but it would be really fun to try agility and teach him to pull a wagon or sled - a VERY LIGHT wagon or sled, just for fun.

I hear exploding puppy syndome is a real concern around here:


Click here for the full 480x640 image.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Apidae posted:

I'm trying to train my roommates' puppy but my daily schedule is pretty inconsistent due to classes and homework. I'll have some days with several hours free to train, and some days with maybe 20 minutes, and I'm more likely to use that time to play with him or go for a run just to blow off some steam so he isn't insanity personified in the evening. The puppy is a 4 month old MinPin X Chihuahua.

Am I unintentionally doing damage by trying to get a lot of obedience and basic manners training in one day, then having a few days where I can't do all that much? How long is too long a training session for his age? I'm getting a clicker soon, but have been using mostly "Good boy!", tiny pieces of cheese, and kibble and he's responding fairly well. He's a quick learner but I'm worried I'm confusing him by having really full days and really empty days, and also some confusion from his owners and my other roommate not really following the "rules".

So far he sits without any food reward, when he knows I have treats he'll come when he's called and we're working on "stay" and good leash manners, and I've asked everyone not to give him any attention unless he's sitting calmly so he got that figured out really quick. He'll run up to someone and sit in front of them as soon as they enter the room.

I want to get the basics (sit, stay, come, drop it, leash manners) down, but it would be really fun to try agility and teach him to pull a wagon or sled - a VERY LIGHT wagon or sled, just for fun.

Training sessions should be ~3-5 minutes at this age (for most dogs you never really want to go over 10 minutes in their lifetimes). Have maybe 4 training "sessions" a day, and keep it fun and stress free. I don't think you're confusing him by having fun days and more serious days, as long as all his needs are being met. I imagine that when your schedule is busy your roommate is still around to exercise/interact with the pup, right?

Puppies' (and dogs') learning isn't restricted to training sessions, they're constantly learning behaviours based on your reactions. So training proper manners doesn't have to go out the window when you're having fun with him, and vice versa. Keeping this in mind is good to prevent you from letting training slip.

It sounds like you're doing a great job with him so far. Congrats!

Also, I wholeheartedly recommend agility! It's an amazing sport, a lot of fun, and can be a tremendous bonding experience. Plus, it's rare to see toy breeds participating since most people don't put in the time and energy to train them up to that degree. You can start working on the basics now (focus, off leash control, basic obedience), but you'll not be able to really start the interesting stuff until the pup is 12-18 months old.

Fat Dio
Feb 27, 2010

I think when I'm gone most of the day he goes out to pee when he needs to but doesn't get the crazy run-around playtime or long walks and runs. I don't want to paint my roommates in a bad light but I think he was mostly bought to be a tiny lap dog to look cute and cuddle. I took him for a 50-minute walk today and when I got home his one owner said "Thanks for taking him out, I like it when he sleeps". I started actively training him because they were mostly saying "NO" when he got too annoying but not really trying to teach him anything (like what "no" means). Last thing I want is to live with a "small dog", and I've never trained a dog from the beginning so I'm glad to do it.

He is learning good manners very well, the "formal" training sessions were really only lasting a few minutes anyway so it's good to hear I'm doing it well. I also ask him to sit in the middle of play, or call him to me randomly during the day to make sure he'll remember. I have to get a clicker though, he really responds best when he knows I have kibble/cheese and I'm afraid he'll start to only work for food. I really need to bring up "NILIF" with his owners...

Thanks for the advice and reading my rambling posts :D

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Has anyone here ever used a Thundershirt? My trainer just ordered a bunch at wholesale because she's heard good things. So we got one. It's a doggie wrap that supposedly comforts the dog by wrapping them in a reassuring pressure. According to reviews on Amazon, they really work for things like dogs who are afraid of thunderstorms and such. The website claims it can work for any anxiety and can be used in training.

I'm skeptical, but we'll try anything to help Psyche learn how to be more calm. If nothing else, we can use it to keep her warmer during the winter.

Speaking of training tools, I took her on her first walk with a head collar today. She took it off once, but otherwise did really well! She was a lot less jumpy and barky around things that usually get her going. It only took about 15 minutes for someone to call it a muzzle though. :(

Rixatrix
Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

You can start working on the basics now (focus, off leash control, basic obedience), but you'll not be able to really start the interesting stuff until the pup is 12-18 months old.
I'm going to disagree with a life less a bit (sorry!) and say that the groundwork for agility can be taught without the dog ever seeing an obstacle. If a dog masters the basics, adding the obstacles is a breeze. For a really comprehensive, good book on agility, get a hold of Agility Right From the Start. I don't remember the names of the authors, but it's published by Karen Pryor's company.

Fat Dio
Feb 27, 2010

Rixatrix I assumed a life less meant that high impact activies like agility shouldn't be done until the dog is fully grown, or is that more for long dogs and huge huge breeds? Anyway, Ted already enjoys vaulting over the barrier we set up to keep him out of the kitchen so I don't see jumps being a hard one to teach, I'd just keep them low till he's grown.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Kiri koli posted:

Has anyone here ever used a Thundershirt? My trainer just ordered a bunch at wholesale because she's heard good things. So we got one. It's a doggie wrap that supposedly comforts the dog by wrapping them in a reassuring pressure. According to reviews on Amazon, they really work for things like dogs who are afraid of thunderstorms and such. The website claims it can work for any anxiety and can be used in training.

I'm skeptical, but we'll try anything to help Psyche learn how to be more calm. If nothing else, we can use it to keep her warmer during the winter.

Speaking of training tools, I took her on her first walk with a head collar today. She took it off once, but otherwise did really well! She was a lot less jumpy and barky around things that usually get her going. It only took about 15 minutes for someone to call it a muzzle though. :(

It really depends on the dog. Thundershirts work for some dogs amazingly well, and have little to no effect on others. I'm not too sure how it will work for day to day anxiety, as I've only really heard them being used for thunder storms, fireworks, etc. You'll have to let us know if it works for Psyche.

Good stuff work on the walk. Just keep the training up too, since sometimes people experience a honeymoon period when they switch to a new tool where their dog acts particularly well, but it doesn't always last.

DenialTwist
Sep 18, 2008
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

Not really a training question, but more I figured I would ask here since it involves clickers and such. I'm looking for good free shaping clicker games to play with Maverick. Right now we've mostly been mostly playing with boxes like put a foot in the box, put your head in the box, carry the box, ect. ,but I would really like ideas on shaping smaller behaviors like this to get her more comfortable with the idea that messing up is okay. She doesn't really shut down ,but if she isn't reinforced often enough (even when not offering a good behavior) she looses interest and walks away.

I'm really not as dedicated as I would like to be to teaching tricks between work and school I'm lucky to get 3 sessions in a week, so I'm really not looking for anything that I have to build on, just quick activities that can help build her confidence level around new objects and encourage her to "mess up" a bit. I find that when I do try teaching her a newer trick she gets frustrated very easily and begins resorting to older behaviors sits and downs and watch me's and when I say nope, try again too many times she gives up and walks away. The box games are really helping her stay motivated a bit longer, but I can't think of anything else to do with a box!

Fat Dio
Feb 27, 2010

I'm new to this so feel free to ignore me, but when she gets frustrated try getting her to perform a trick she knows well and enjoys doing, then go back to teaching the new one. Then you get to encourage and reward her for doing something well and then return to the new task. Seems like a good idea to have something happy and encouraging happen to stave off frustration. If she gives up and walks away I'd guess either the training session is too long or the reward/incentive isn't exciting enough.

Rixatrix
Aug 5, 2006

Apidae posted:

Rixatrix I assumed a life less meant that high impact activies like agility shouldn't be done until the dog is fully grown, or is that more for long dogs and huge huge breeds? Anyway, Ted already enjoys vaulting over the barrier we set up to keep him out of the kitchen so I don't see jumps being a hard one to teach, I'd just keep them low till he's grown.
Sure it's true that running courses needs to wait while the pup is fully grown, but most of agility training has very little to do with obstacles. The skills the dog needs to perform the obstacles quickly, safely and correctly are best taught in advance. These skills are quite specific to agility and not covered by basic obedience. You might need props, but these are things like stairs, a couple of soda bottles filled with water, a mouse pad etc. Some obstacle work can be taught early on, the table for example. For puppy jumping exercises you use speed bumps. Handling, which is the most difficult part of agility for humans, can and should be practiced on the flat and so on.

Of course this depends on where you want to go with your training - if you just want to have fun with your dog once a week then it's completely sufficient to work on basic focus and off-leash control until the pup is grown and then start obstacle work directly. This is how I started with my older dog and we have fun. Teaching him the obstacles just took longer than it would've with appropriate groundwork, I'm going to have to redo his weaves and contacts and his overall performance isn't as good as it should be. So from my own experience I always recommend doing your groundwork well, because you never know, you might end up trialing sooner than later :)

Check out the book I recommended if you're at all interested. It really is the best book on agility training I have ever read, and I've read many.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

DenialTwist posted:

Not really a training question, but more I figured I would ask here since it involves clickers and such. I'm looking for good free shaping clicker games to play with Maverick. Right now we've mostly been mostly playing with boxes like put a foot in the box, put your head in the box, carry the box, ect. ,but I would really like ideas on shaping smaller behaviors like this to get her more comfortable with the idea that messing up is okay. She doesn't really shut down ,but if she isn't reinforced often enough (even when not offering a good behavior) she looses interest and walks away.

I'm really not as dedicated as I would like to be to teaching tricks between work and school I'm lucky to get 3 sessions in a week, so I'm really not looking for anything that I have to build on, just quick activities that can help build her confidence level around new objects and encourage her to "mess up" a bit. I find that when I do try teaching her a newer trick she gets frustrated very easily and begins resorting to older behaviors sits and downs and watch me's and when I say nope, try again too many times she gives up and walks away. The box games are really helping her stay motivated a bit longer, but I can't think of anything else to do with a box!

I don't do nearly as much shaping as I should, but here's my two cents on it.

Start introducing other foreign objects into Maverick's environment, like a blanket, a book, or whatever you have handy. You can approach it the same way you do with the box, encouraging experimentation and making it fun. I know with Cohen sometimes I have to keep her amped up through a lot of excited verbal cues, and over time she understands "nope" and "try again" (though, shaping purists would argue that this sort of negative feedback is unnecessary). I offer a lot of verbal encouragement.

I also sometimes switch up the reward from food to a toy. For example, I'm currently shaping the weave poles with my dog using the 2x2 method. I've tried a lot of different rewards, and the best I've found is to encourage her interacting/walking through the two weaves and then throwing a toy which I then exchange for food. Cohen prefers food to toys, so I keep food as the primary reward, but I use the toy as a secondary reward and to keep her amped up. So, maybe try a toy to keep Maverick's interest up, and then rewarding the toy drop with a treat.

I find I get stuck with my dog offering the same behaviours over and over again. I taught her to stand on an object on the ground, so each time I introduce a new object she spends quite a while standing on it in various ways, trying to tell me, "No, I'm meant to stand on it. You seem to be confused. Here, let me stand on it again to show you."

Check out this link: Introduction to Shaping. At the end of it they go over something they refer to as Body Parts, where you capture an unconscious body movement and build on it. It sounds like it could be fun, and I might try it myself.

DenialTwist
Sep 18, 2008
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

a life less posted:

"No, I'm meant to stand on it. You seem to be confused. Here, let me stand on it again to show you."

I get this a lot with the box too, as the first box game we played I got her to pick it up so now she bites the box for like the first couple of seconds, "Clearly, you're not getting this, I am biting the box and I deserve something!" I definitely do intersperse pets and toys into our training, as my dog eats only to stay alive, but cheese, chicken, hot dog, beef liver and dried lamb liver seem to be acceptable training rewards, so I usually mix a few of each in the treat bag to keep her interested. But I will definitely check out that website, I really like free shaping as I feel it really gives her the best brain stimulation in the shortest period of time, and I'm hoping over time it will help build her confidence around new things. She has certainly come an amazingly long way from being terrified to go inside the first day we got her, but her first response around anything new is still panic and run, so I'm hoping more free shaping will help her learn that new things aren't scary and that approaching and interacting with them = awesome stuff.

Arcane
Nov 19, 2003

There are no girls on the internet!
This thread could not have come at a better time. I read through the entire thread and got a lot of good ideas. My parents have had Buster (boxer pittbull mix) for about two years now. But he would get bored and depressed when everyone was at work. So my sister and I went out and got Spike (red nose pittbull). This is them when we first got spike.

Click here for the full 720x480 image.


They get along great. They are both house broken and do really well at home. They are very spoiled.

Click here for the full 720x540 image.


As Spike has gotten older (10 months) he definitely requires a lot more exercise. Spike has learned to hop over the dog fence, chew through the back yard fence and takes himself out on walks in the park behind our house. He always comes home but I am scared someone will see a pittbull and take him. The other problem is both Spike and Buster get crazy around other dogs. They start barking and 'attempt to play' but other dogs usually get scared. We had an incident where they got out and there were other smaller dogs out in the neighborhood. Spike ended up biting two smaller dogs. So we have a vet bill to take care of. We've fixed the fence so they can't get out and are on a better exercise schedule.

So my question is how do I train them to be calm and social around other dogs? They are great on their own and can ignore people, but they become hard to handle around other dogs.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Arcane posted:

As Spike has gotten older (10 months) he definitely requires a lot more exercise. Spike has learned to hop over the dog fence, chew through the back yard fence and takes himself out on walks in the park behind our house. He always comes home but I am scared someone will see a pittbull and take him. The other problem is both Spike and Buster get crazy around other dogs. They start barking and 'attempt to play' but other dogs usually get scared. We had an incident where they got out and there were other smaller dogs out in the neighborhood. Spike ended up biting two smaller dogs. So we have a vet bill to take care of. We've fixed the fence so they can't get out and are on a better exercise schedule.

So my question is how do I train them to be calm and social around other dogs? They are great on their own and can ignore people, but they become hard to handle around other dogs.

Firstly, I think you need to acquaint yourself a bit better with pit bulls' instincts and genetic tendencies. Just as border collies were bred for centuries to have an innate desire and competency to herd, pit bulls were bred to hunt and fight. It is not unusual for a pit bull to develop dog aggression once it approaches maturity.

There are dozens of lists around the internet about how to properly care for and manage your pit. Here's one that covers the basics. Some highlights:
  • 1. Exercise your dog everyday.
  • 2. Never leave pit bulls alone with other dogs (or any animal).
  • 3. Always have your dog on a leash in public.
  • 4. Always supervise your dogs and never allow them to roam free.
  • 8. Avoid dog parks.
  • 10. Keep your dog properly confined.
The link has details about each point. Please check it out.

Please please reconsider leaving your dogs unattended in the back yard now that they've shown you they can escape from it. Hopefully you've already chosen to do this since you've been hit with the vet bills that were the result of letting Spike roam.

I don't doubt that a lot of the "aggression" is indeed play behaviour, but that level of excitement can easily result in conflict.

So, in my opinion you shouldn't strive to make your dogs social. Dogs don't have to greet or get along with every dog they meet. What they have to do, however, is be calm and non-reactive to strange dogs.

Read this article on dog tolerance levels: Bad Rap - Understanding Different Dog Tolerance Levels. Bad Rap is a great pit bull resource, and I suggest you pour through it if you have the time.

To get your dogs to a point where they're non reactive you're going to want to approach it via counterconditioning. It might also be a good idea to walk them separately since they likely feed off each other's excitement. So, while walking them, the moment they see another dog present some really awesome treats. Do this each and every time you see a dog -- be consistent. If your dog won't eat, you're too close to the other dog and you'll have to turn around and reset the exercise. You want the appearance of other dogs to be the signifier of good things.

After you get the ground work laid and your dog is less reactive to other dogs at a distance I would start working on focus. Start indoors with very little distractions, and when your dog meets your gaze, click and treat (or mark with a "yes" or whatever your marker word is, then treat). Once your dog is consistently meeting your gaze, start adding a verbal cue to it, and start working on distance and duration. In baby steps, work on getting your dog to look at you (and not break the focus) until you say so. On top of that, once you have the focus, you can start playing the "look at that" game. If your dog is nervous get him in a focus and then try to encourage him to look at what's bothering him. When he does that, click and treat (or "yes" and treat) which should bring his focus back to you where you reward him for looking back at you. It tends to calm dogs down if they can glance at what's bothering them from time to time.

Anyways, that's my two cents. There are a number of pit owners on these forums who might jump in with better advice. Check out the Bully Breed Thread for more information if someone else doesn't jump in here.

tsc
Jun 18, 2004
hostis humani generis
We have our dog to sit and 'wait' before she goes out any door (including the car), on leash or off. While she is really, really good at it when someone is with her (door wide open, other dogs and people going in and out is no problem), if she just sees an open door, she'll go through it, just barely pausing on the way out.

How do we get her to understand that this also applies without someone next to you?

She also likes to sleep in inappropriately tiny beds, which we encourage whenever possible.



(ignore the doofy 'I hate the camera' face, her tail's going a mile a minute)

Arcane
Nov 19, 2003

There are no girls on the internet!

a life less posted:

A ton of help.

Thanks for all the great advice! I knew most of the dogs history but thought they could learn to get rid of their aggression. I guess not. We fixed the dog kennel (Spike was hopping over and squeezing through the fence). They have never been able to go in the back yard unsupervised, but given Spike's escape act, we have also secured the back yard fence.

I took the dogs out for a walk separately using all the methods I found on the site. It was difficult for Buster to ignore everything around him (cars and people), but he doesn't bark and pull on the leash. While taking Spike out for a walk we ran into a lady with a tiny dog (on a leash) and an old man with a rottweiler (not on a leash). Both dogs surrounded us One was behind and one was in front. I crossed the street to avoid contact with either dog and waiting until they passed. With treat and commands I was able to keep spike focused on me and calm. Of course he still cried, but I'll take crying over loud barking and hauling rear end on a leash.

I think that's pretty good progress for now. I know being consistent will be important. The next step is teaching my sisters and parents these techniques.

Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~
Do you crate the dogs if you leave them indoors while you're gone? Do this if you don't. It's absolutely the safest for them VS being left outside unattended. People do steal and do horrible things to pet dogs, especially bully breeds. :(

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

tsc posted:

We have our dog to sit and 'wait' before she goes out any door (including the car), on leash or off. While she is really, really good at it when someone is with her (door wide open, other dogs and people going in and out is no problem), if she just sees an open door, she'll go through it, just barely pausing on the way out.

How do we get her to understand that this also applies without someone next to you?

You can do this pretty simply by starting the training sessions with someone next to her, and then you start upping the distance and duration of the behaviour you're asking for. So, "don't go out the door" applies when there's someone standing next to you, when there's someone standing 2 feet away, 6 feet away, 10 feet away, etc. Then break line of sight -- 2 seconds out of sight, 5 seconds, 10, 30, etc. (You'll probably have to break this down into smaller increments, but you get the idea.) You're essentially working on a really good "stay" command (with or without the actual verbal cue).

You want to keep a high rate of reinforcement up when the door is open and your dog is choosing not to exit it. Reward her for choosing to ignore the open door.

There's probably a better way to train this. I've been anxiously waiting for the follow up to Kikopup's Barrier Training Video but she's not uploaded it yet. If I see it posted I'll let you know. Watch that video I linked for an idea of what barrier training can look like.

Sorry I don't have a better method to offer right now. With me I can't 100% trust my dog not to bolt after a squirrel she sees through an open door, so I don't risk it, and always keep tabs on her if a door is open. One of the best things to remember when training your dog is to always set them up for success -- don't push them beyond their capabilities since it can only end in frustration on both of your parts.

tsc
Jun 18, 2004
hostis humani generis
Thanks for the reply. Rant incoming!

That's pretty much what we've been doing-- but unfortunately I think our circumstances work against us a lot. We're in an apartment complex that's full of awful dog owners who will let their dogs out off leash, and shut the door behind them. I don't really want these dogs either in our apartment, or ours (perfectly understandably) going out to see WTF. She has loose leash walking down pat, so even if we put a long line on her, she'd be responding to THAT, not choosing to ignore the door.

I also have pet-stupid 'in-laws' to contend with, who keep two outdoor exclusive dogs, let the little dogs inside climb in the dishwasher, eat off of plates at the table, bite strangers, bark all day, piss everywhere, etc etc. So their only idea of training is to yell "sitsitsitSITSITSITSITSITSIT" at ours until she completes the sit she started when they first yelled, then ignoring her. I'd really hate to keep her away from there, 'cause it is a fenced 5 acre property on which she's allowed to dig extensively and run like crazy (and we would catch unending amounts of hell), but poo poo. She regresses every time we go there, it seems. We can't really get them to have her wait at the door, and they even feed her directly from the dinner table when we explicitly tell them not to-- she gets put in a down-stay far away from the table, that THEY CALL HER OUT OF, and we DO want her to know to go to them just in case-- and now she begs.

Edit: actually, writing that and re-reading your post makes me realize what we're doing "wrong"-- currently, it's set up as waiting to go out the door, but it needs to be not going out the door period, until you're told. The reward at the end of how we do it currently is going out the door, not staying in. So when the door is open, she assumes that going out of it is the eventual goal. And being a smartass, she just takes a shortcut.

I want a more stupid dog. :(

tsc fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Nov 28, 2010

RizieN
May 15, 2004

and it was still hot.
I love this thread, thanks A Life Less for starting it. Cosmo is crazy smart when it comes to training him to do things, but only if I'm smart about how to capture behaviors and teach him what to do. Sometimes I have to get creative ,like with Down, I think I asked about it in the Primitive Breeds thread.

Basically he only ever gets into a down position on the bed if I'm playing with him, so I got him on the bed and 'captured' the action with a clicker and reward treats, he was a little confused when I asked him to down outside of the bedroom, but quickly started getting it.

Heel is gonna be a little tough I think, and getting him to recall/obey at the dog park is gonna be very tough, he's kind of ADD when theres OMG DOGS LETS PLAY.

Siochain
May 24, 2005

"can they get rid of any humans who are fans of shitheads like Kanye West, 50 Cent, or any other piece of crap "artist" who thinks they're all that?

And also get rid of anyone who has posted retarded shit on the internet."


RizieN posted:

I love this thread, thanks A Life Less for starting it. Cosmo is crazy smart when it comes to training him to do things, but only if I'm smart about how to capture behaviors and teach him what to do. Sometimes I have to get creative ,like with Down, I think I asked about it in the Primitive Breeds thread.

Basically he only ever gets into a down position on the bed if I'm playing with him, so I got him on the bed and 'captured' the action with a clicker and reward treats, he was a little confused when I asked him to down outside of the bedroom, but quickly started getting it.

Heel is gonna be a little tough I think, and getting him to recall/obey at the dog park is gonna be very tough, he's kind of ADD when theres OMG DOGS LETS PLAY.

Yay my suggestion worked! huzzah! :)
Glad you've got down working!

RizieN
May 15, 2004

and it was still hot.
Yea I should've checked the old thread, but credit to Siochain for proposing the idea! The capturing of behaviors was a really awesome idea, and worked great.

I'm so stoked on it that I want to train him so many things at once. But don't want to over load him.

RizieN fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Nov 29, 2010

Arcane
Nov 19, 2003

There are no girls on the internet!

Kerfuffle posted:

Do you crate the dogs if you leave them indoors while you're gone? Do this if you don't. It's absolutely the safest for them VS being left outside unattended. People do steal and do horrible things to pet dogs, especially bully breeds. :(

No unfortunately everyone in my family has a weird schedule and there would be days where the dogs would be in a kennel for up to 8 hours. If we were going to crate them I would want to be consistent. My schedule will change this summer so I will probably do it then. I just hope I'm not waiting to late to do so.

Siochain
May 24, 2005

"can they get rid of any humans who are fans of shitheads like Kanye West, 50 Cent, or any other piece of crap "artist" who thinks they're all that?

And also get rid of anyone who has posted retarded shit on the internet."


RizieN posted:

Yea I should've checked the old thread, but credit to Siochain for proposing the idea! The capturing of behaviors was a really awesome idea, and worked great.

I'm so stoked on it that I want to train him so many things at once. But don't want to over load him.

Hahah I'm the same with Asa. The old lady was here for her 2-weeks home shortly after Asa learnt down, so trainings kind of slowed down, but she leaves again tomorrow for another 2 weeks so here's to hoping we can get roll-over and maybe bow down! It's so awesome once you figure stuff out :)

RizieN
May 15, 2004

and it was still hot.
Ok, so Cosmo is pretty good at picking up on things...but I just can't get him to heel. Maybe its because I'm in the apartment when I try it?

I try to lead him with treats, I've tried his favorite chicken training treats, and thinly sliced hot dog, he walks a little bit, sometimes will leap/jump at my hand to get the treat, then just sits down looking at me.

Sometimes he'll get a full 'oval' walk on, walking straight, turn to my left (he heels on my left), go straight again, turn again, give a treat. But it ends there. Getting him to follow me to turn right is way harder, he just stops I turn, he cuts the corner so he's now on my right side.

Any really good tips for this one?

Hiekka
May 14, 2006
muh muh
An update on how we're doing:

There hasn't really been more barking at night, which we're grateful for. What we've been doing is mostly this: a clicker in our hands 24/7 (yes, in bed while asleep, too, though that's been unnecessary now), and when we hear a noise Blanka reacts to, we get the click in between the noise and the bark, so she usually doesn't have time for more than inhaling for the bark, then focuses on the click = treats. It's amazing how many noises you start noticing that you've never paid attention to before. The neighbour flushing, moving chairs, opening their doors etc. Most of these noises mean nothing to her, the downstairs neigbours can make whatever noises they feel like, but the next-door neighbour's door and shared balcony with stairs to the ground -movements are the trigger. Sometimes we're late or don't hear the noise, and she comes barking to us. We might acknowledge her, but no treats for that. Sometimes she takes some time to think about whether to bark or not. On those occasions it's harder to get the timing right.

We haven't had as much help in practising the doorbell in set up situations as we'd hoped for. When it's us doing it, she knows us by our footsteps. I should bug friends and family who live close to go on doorbell-ringing-walks more. Inconveniencing people is hard for me, but I just have to keep in mind that most are probably happy to help us in this when asked (and return favours, of course).

Oh yeah, and lucky us for not having next door neighbours that come smoke on the balcony through the night. I don't know if she'd be used to it by now or barking through the night, but I'm glad we don't have to try it out.

Hiekka fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Dec 4, 2010

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

RizieN posted:

Ok, so Cosmo is pretty good at picking up on things...but I just can't get him to heel. Maybe its because I'm in the apartment when I try it?

I try to lead him with treats, I've tried his favorite chicken training treats, and thinly sliced hot dog, he walks a little bit, sometimes will leap/jump at my hand to get the treat, then just sits down looking at me.

Sometimes he'll get a full 'oval' walk on, walking straight, turn to my left (he heels on my left), go straight again, turn again, give a treat. But it ends there. Getting him to follow me to turn right is way harder, he just stops I turn, he cuts the corner so he's now on my right side.

Any really good tips for this one?

It sounds like you're leaving too much time between reinforcements. Keep up a steady flow of food into the dog's mouth for this one.

Have you tried the tactic I outlined in the Loose Leash Walking post? If not, definitely give it a try.

I taught Cohen using a slightly different method though, so if you're having trouble with that, try this. I feel that this is more of a way to teach walking at heel instead of loose leash walking, which is both good and bad.

So, I'm standing there with Cohen on my left side. I take a step forward while at the same time hunched down with a hand full of treats in her face, popping them into her mouth one at a time. This is just to give the dog the idea that if they move with you they get food. Then try taking multiple steps, as many as you can while still keeping the dog's focus on all the awesome stuff in your hand. The next stage looks kind of funny. While walking pop a reward into the dog's mouth then quickly move your hand to your left hip bone then immediately back to your dog's mouth for another reward. (I'll take this opportunity to remind you that you should be giving the treats with your left hand.) It looks like a silly dance move. This is to get the dog used to looking at you while walking (even if it's just your hip and hand). Gradually increase the pause between returning to your dog's mouth as he begins to understand the game. The rules are: 1. stay on my left side, 2. look at me. If the dog follows the rules he profits. Think about heel position as the dog begging in motion.

After you get to that part it's really just a matter of upping distance, distractions and duration. A focused heel takes a long time to teach (months). It's also really taxing on the dog so don't ask for it for a prolonged period of time. Play a game where you pick landmarks where you want the dog to heel between them (lightposts, whatever) and ask for it then let them relax and be a dog between exercises.

The downside to this is that I've been finding it difficult to get Cohen to maintain proper position when she's not focused on me. She tends to forge ahead when not focused (luckily she doesn't pull, she just doesn't position herself perfectly). I try not to ask for her focus all the time, but she tends to give it to me without me asking (which is great, don't get me wrong, but it's not exactly what I want).

You mention you're having trouble turning to your right. Dogs don't generalize well, so go back to basics (of having food continuously in his face) to work him through his trouble spots, then work your way up.

Hiekka posted:

An update on how we're doing:

It sounds like you're doing pretty well. These things take time, so keep with it. I don't think I would have thought to use the clicker in that way, but it's so precise it's well suited to your strategy. Good luck!

moechae
Apr 11, 2007

lolwhat
Hey, so I have kind of a specific question. I've got a beagle (Ike) that counter surfs. Really bad. We took him to training classes at Petsmart (they were actually really good, trained us with clickers and everything) and we eventually taught him "off" for when he puts his paws up on/near a counter, and it works just fine in those circumstances. Our counters and one table we eat at are high enough that he can barely get his nose over the edge, so we've also learned not to put any food too near the edge of the counter.

The problem I'm having though, is mainly when I take him to my parent's house, which has lower counters and tables, low enough that Ike can grab quite a lot of stuff. The house is pretty big too, so I can't be around Ike 24/7 to tell him "off" if he jumps up. Without the "off" command he jumps up and eats everything in sight. My parents don't keep food far away from the edge, and as such, Ike got a hold of some brownies over the holidays. I got pissed at my parents for leaving chocolate on the edge of a table, when they knew Ike will eat stuff, and my parents got pissed off at me because "I need to train my drat dog".

Pretty much, the training that works at my house doesn't work at all over there. I need to figure out a way to keep him from jumping up to begin with. Correcting the behavior when it happens will make him go down, but it won't prevent him from jumping up again 5 min later unless I tell him "off" again. I don't want to have to follow my dog around everywhere when my parents throw a house party, telling him "off" every other minute. How can I get him to just NOT JUMP UP ON COUNTERS/TABLES EVER AGAIN? It's frustrating, cuz he's a beagle, and he'll eat everything in sight if he can. And I figured it'd be easier to train my dog than my parents who refuse to learn to keep food out of Ike's reach. Plus I hate yelling at my dad who thinks the best way to keep Ike down is to hit him on the head if he jumps up. (Then my mom gives me a guilt trip when I tell her I won't bring my dog over anymore because she loves my drat dog too much.)

So to do a tl:dr, How can I train my hugely food motivated beagle to never jump up on counters with tons of delicious food on them?

Emasculatrix
Nov 30, 2004


Tell Me You Love Me.
My 2 y.o. dog started sporadically getting into fights with dogs at the dog park. It took me a while to come around, but as the fights increased I stopped taking him to the dog park and started taking him to the beach instead. I've also been teaching him to fetch, since I think it'd help him to have a constructive thing to focus on, and I put him on leash whenever large male dogs approach. Doing this has improved the situation a lot. But...my boyfriend and I took him to the beach recently, took him off leash, and played the game where we call him back and forth and reward him with treats. A very playful and friendly dog ran up to him to say "hello," and my dog charges straight for him to attack.

We took him to a dog training class for aggressive dogs, but the trainer felt that it wasn't the right class for him because he's fine on-leash, doesn't pull or bark at other dogs. She also said this was a phase of dog puberty or something, leading me to believe that if I keep him from getting into situations where his behavior is reinforced, eventually he'll outgrow it. In the meantime, he's started acting out at home because he isn't getting the exercise he used to at the park.

Basically, my questions are:
1) Am I on the right track with my training?
2) What else do I need to know?
3) Is this something he'll outgrow, and how do I know?
4) What other ways can I tire him out so he stops eating my shoes?

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

moechae posted:

So to do a tl:dr, How can I train my hugely food motivated beagle to never jump up on counters with tons of delicious food on them?

Unfortunately there's not much you can do to effectively curb this behaviour. Once your dog has ascertained that the counter is more rewarding than abiding by the rules this becomes a very difficult habit to break.

Your number one goal should be management. Get your folks to keep the food off the counters. Your parents can't realistically expect a dog to ignore readily available food when he's successfully eaten it in the past. There is some debate over how conscious dogs are of "bad" behaviour, but he definitely understands that the reinforcer is available on top of the counter and the punishment is not present. Obviously retroactively reprimanding your dog will have zero effect.

Another management goal is to not allow your dog to wander unsupervised. You can tether him to you, or set up some gates or closed doors that keep him separate from the temptation.

Then, to help put your parents at ease work on a really solid "leave it" command. Realistically you should be able to get your dog to the point where you can tell him to leave food alone for a minute while you're in the other room. Any longer and you're probably asking too much of a food lovin' beagle.

Finally, the last management technique I'll suggest is allowing your dog to gorge before you arrive at your parent's house. It sounds kind of silly, but dogs stomachs are designed to hold massive amounts of food. When we portion out kibble into small meals a few times a day, dogs' stomachs (apparently) never really stretch out and they don't get that full feeling. It results in a lot of food seeking behaviours. You can't healthily let a dog gorge on kibble, but you can let him gorge on raw meat. A lot of raw feeders use the binge/fast style of feeding. I read this on a raw feeding forum a while back and I haven't personally put this to the test. It just seems like it could help, assuming your dog is accustomed to the protein source. (If not... diarrhea.)

Emasulatrix posted:

Basically, my questions are:
1) Am I on the right track with my training?
2) What else do I need to know?
3) Is this something he'll outgrow, and how do I know?
4) What other ways can I tire him out so he stops eating my shoes?

The "charges straight to [the other dog] to attack" part of your post gives me pause. Can you tell why your dog is reacting the way he is? Is he nervous? Is it all male dogs? Females? Is he neutered? What other signals does he give prior to getting in fights? Was this "very playful and friendly" dog acting particularly energetic or submissive?

Without knowing more I can't answer your questions 100%, but I'll try my best.

Firstly it's not uncommon for dogs to get into scrapes at dog parks. This tends to be because the owners are standing around and not necessarily watching their dogs' behaviours. There's a large number of dogs milling around forced (to a degree) to interact when they maybe shouldn't. What I recommend (and what I do with my dog since she can be too "in your face" for a lot of dogs) is to walk with him. It sounds like you're on the right track by going to the beach since there's more space and less forced interaction. My dog behaves wonderfully when we meet other dogs at the beach or on the trail -- sometimes they'll greet each other, play or whatever, sometimes they'll ignore each other. While you're at the beach, are you moving a fair amount? Are there paths to walk? If not, are there other places like that where you can go?

Most dogs are aggressive because they're insecure. They're overcompensating for their anxiety that's created when other dogs (or people, depending on the case) are present. So, with that said, I'm going to quote the books I posted on the first page that are catered to fear and aggression.


Those books all deal with counterconditioning your dog to the presence of others. I've also written quite a bit about classical conditioning in this thread which might help you. (Make the presence of other dogs the predictor of good things.)

He might outgrow it. I would actively try to train him out of it, however. Some dogs are just aggressive and cannot be trusted 100% off leash. Some dogs can be managed easily once you've identified their triggers.

As far as other ways to tire him out, the best and most effective way to tire out a reactive dog is nosework. There's a thread on these forums about starting up in it. You can get started in it on your own if you read up on it, or there are loads of classes available.

Other ways to tire out a dog: hide and seek (I tell my dog to stay, I go hide then call her, she seeks), trick training, jogging, fetch in tennis courts or other enclosed areas, dog sports and more.

Emasculatrix
Nov 30, 2004


Tell Me You Love Me.

a life less posted:

Lots of helpful advice

Is there a particular book from that list you recommend starting with?

It used to be that Comet would be playing with a male dog at least his size, and the dog would put his paw on Comet's shoulder. Then..Comet goes straight for the neck.

Eventually that turned into the initial greeting. They're both paused, sniffing each others necks. Comet's hackles raise, he might growl, then straight for the dog's neck.

Now a dog just needs to get close and Comet will charge him away. If I can't get to him in time, he'll have the other dog on its back on the ground. He's never hurt another dog, and he'll respond to "leave it," but it frightens the other dog (and their owner obviously). It's almost always male dogs, at least his size. Sometimes it's male puppies. If I see a german shepard or bully breed coming, I have to immediately leash him, because I know it's just a matter of time before he meets a dog that doesn't want to be harassed. He was fixed before I got him.

If we're walking on a trail or the beach, as long as I keep him moving and with treats, he will rarely approach another big dog. If the other dog approaches him, he'll attack. He does like playing with female and small dogs though.

The reason this has been so hard for me to handle is that I've never experienced it in my other dogs, and until he turned 2 he was very playful and extremely submissive. I've also never had a dog before that wasn't a lab- even teaching him to fetch is a huge work in progress.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Emasculatrix posted:

Is there a particular book from that list you recommend starting with?

I'd probably start with Click to Calm by Emma Parsons and Fight by Jean Donaldson.

It sounds like it might have started with rude behaviour making your dog feel anxious and threatened, and now he's not taking the chance to have other dogs threaten him and his aggression in the result.

I would do everything you can to limit unleashed greetings between your dog and others. I think right now you would want your goal to be for Comet to ignore other dogs, or better yet look to you for reinforcement when in their presence. Each time he's allowed to repeat the behaviour the more ingrained it becomes. I don't say this spitefully, or with intention to hurt, but it's irresponsible to allow your dog off leash and out of your control when you feel there's a chance that he'll not only get in a fight, but pin another dog. I 100% understand the desire to continue giving him exposure and hoping for the best, but I don't think that's wise. You're on the right track leashing him when you see other dogs who you expect will trigger a reaction. Just be more proactive.

So, to reiterate, your goal should be for him to ignore other strange dogs. Work on off-leash control and recalls (which it sounds like you're doing... continue 'em). Ask for eye contact/focus when around other dogs. Hopefully one of those books will set you on your way. Once you've desensitized him you might be able to successfully reintroduce off leash greetings of strange dogs, but it might be a ways off.

Cassiope
Jul 7, 2010

Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system.
Except for cats.
I did that free shaping game you posted the youtube video of with Moxie tonight :) She picked up on it instantly, I guess because we've worked on leave it and stay a lot, and we got all the way to putting kibble on her paws before she'd had enough of that nonsense. Gonna slow it down and work up to putting in on her nose :3:

As soon as we get there I will post a video. Any other fun self control games you wanna share? Everyone comments on how calm Moxie is for a 10 month old dog and I credit both PI for all the training tips and Moxie's own natural personality.

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Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

moechae posted:

Hey, so I have kind of a specific question. I've got a beagle (Ike) that counter surfs. Really bad. We took him to training classes at Petsmart (they were actually really good, trained us with clickers and everything) and we eventually taught him "off" for when he puts his paws up on/near a counter, and it works just fine in those circumstances. Our counters and one table we eat at are high enough that he can barely get his nose over the edge, so we've also learned not to put any food too near the edge of the counter.

The problem I'm having though, is mainly when I take him to my parent's house, which has lower counters and tables, low enough that Ike can grab quite a lot of stuff. The house is pretty big too, so I can't be around Ike 24/7 to tell him "off" if he jumps up. Without the "off" command he jumps up and eats everything in sight. My parents don't keep food far away from the edge, and as such, Ike got a hold of some brownies over the holidays. I got pissed at my parents for leaving chocolate on the edge of a table, when they knew Ike will eat stuff, and my parents got pissed off at me because "I need to train my drat dog".

Pretty much, the training that works at my house doesn't work at all over there. I need to figure out a way to keep him from jumping up to begin with. Correcting the behavior when it happens will make him go down, but it won't prevent him from jumping up again 5 min later unless I tell him "off" again. I don't want to have to follow my dog around everywhere when my parents throw a house party, telling him "off" every other minute. How can I get him to just NOT JUMP UP ON COUNTERS/TABLES EVER AGAIN? It's frustrating, cuz he's a beagle, and he'll eat everything in sight if he can. And I figured it'd be easier to train my dog than my parents who refuse to learn to keep food out of Ike's reach. Plus I hate yelling at my dad who thinks the best way to keep Ike down is to hit him on the head if he jumps up. (Then my mom gives me a guilt trip when I tell her I won't bring my dog over anymore because she loves my drat dog too much.)

So to do a tl:dr, How can I train my hugely food motivated beagle to never jump up on counters with tons of delicious food on them?

We have the same problem except it's not just food. If Psyche is not sleeping or we're not paying attention to her, she's stealing something off of desks, tables, counters...we keep food out of her way, but she'll pretty much take anything. We're working on a solid off and leave it, but our trainer also suggested setting her up. We haven't done it yet, but it seems like an interesting idea.

The idea is to leave a trap with something tasty such that when dog snatches it, something safe but loud comes tumbling down. For a kitchen, I imagine a stack of pie tins or something would be perfect. We haven't figured out what to use for carpet yet. The unpleasant experience may make the dog weary of the counters and then combined with the management a life less talked about (don't leave tempting things around!), it may reduce that behavior.

But what do I know, my dog just stole my nail file from right next to me.

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