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This seems like the best place to ask for help with my problem. I've had my dog for almost a year now and have taught her a number of cute and useless tricks. However, the only thing I really care that she does is come when called when off-leash, and I don't know how to teach her that. She has gotten off her leash a few times for various reasons (leash broke once, I slipped on the ice and dropped it once, and she has ran out the door twice when people were coming and going). When she is off-leash outdoors she turns into a crazy dog. She runs full speed checking out everything and won't let me get near her and won't respond to anything I say. Each time I have caught her by pure luck, such as her stopping to poop or running up to stranger who sees me chasing her and helps out. On one occasion I had to chase her for over a mile. The only place I can have her off-leash without being afraid of losing her or her being hit by a car is at our local fenced in dog park. I've tried to practice having her come to me there, and sometimes she does it, but the problem is that she is so excited about the freedom and the other dogs that she won't take treats so I don't know how to reward her. She usually ignores the treats, and if she takes them she will just drop them. The only thing she wants at that point is to play with other dogs, and she already has that. How do I teach her this? To clarify, she will come when called 100% of the time when she is on a leash or indoors. She understands the command, she just won't do it if she is outside and off-leash.
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Nov 13, 2010 03:12
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I'm no where near as rehearsed as lifeless, but I think I can give some advice on this one. Use the dog park as a reward instead of a treat. If you get her toward you, leash her and praise her, then let go go play again, she'll know realize that leashing doesn't mean going home and no more fun time with dogs. Try going to empty tennis courts to practice too, they're really great fenced off areas. You can also get her to chase you and call her name, treating when she get's close enough. This makes you fun and interesting. Practice leash/treat/release there as well.
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Nov 13, 2010 03:22
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Kerfuffle posted:I'm no where near as rehearsed as lifeless, but I think I can give some advice on this one. It seems like if I leash for coming and then release her she will think she is being punished, although I admit I am not an expert on the dog brain.
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Nov 13, 2010 04:38
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Industrial posted:It seems like if I leash for coming and then release her she will think she is being punished, although I admit I am not an expert on the dog brain. The leashing just becomes part of the ritual, not a punishment if you let her go right after. You might also want to work on an emergency recall cue. The pamphlet "Really Reliable Recall" helped me a lot with this. You want to pair a word or noise with the best thing in the world for your dog (see my earlier comment about the gross pigeon wing). That way the recall cue isn't "Get over here now!" its "Get over here now...because awesome things are going to happen!". Just say the word/make the noise while presenting the totally amazing thing a couple times a day, slowly working up to distracting situations. After a week or so with the pigeon wing and recalling for raw meals I was able to call Major off a flock of turkeys he was chasing full tilt.
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Nov 13, 2010 04:48
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But what if the most awesome thing in the world for your dog is playing with other dogs?
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Nov 13, 2010 04:57
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Industrial posted:But what if the most awesome thing in the world for your dog is playing with other dogs? You're going to need to keep a litter of puppies in your backpack with you at all times. No, honestly that's hard  I would maybe try finding her absolute most favorite thing ever (food wise)and try to build up to calling her back from playing with a lot of dogs. Since you already have 100% recall inside and on leash, try empty tennis courts like Kerfuffle suggested. Let her run around and sniff and get used to it, and then when it seems like she is likely to come back to you anyway call her and reward her with the food. Or if she is headed in your direction give her the command when she is a foot or so away from you, and then reward. Sometimes if complying with the command is super easy, and they think it was their idea, it breaks down the mental barrier they have where what you are asking for is just TOO hard. So set her up for success. Start with tennis courts alone, then maybe add one dog she is familiar with and do the same thing (ask for her to come when she is very likely to), then maybe add another dog to the mix, and so on. That's just my take on it, someone with more experience may have completely different/better advice. Good luck!
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Nov 13, 2010 06:05
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That sound worth a try. My dog park actually has a really small separate enclosed area that is supposed to be for small/old dogs but it's almost always empty so I can even practice there where she can see the other dogs. Unfortunately I am in the middle of a blizzard right now so I might have to wait a few days
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Nov 13, 2010 07:22
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Cassiope posted:So set her up for success. Start with tennis courts alone, then maybe add one dog she is familiar with and do the same thing (ask for her to come when she is very likely to), then maybe add another dog to the mix, and so on. Get a long line and practice with her on that long line. Get a friend with a reliable, calm dog to be a distraction for her when she comes to you in a non-distracting environment. See how far the helper dog must be in order for your dog to still be able to come when called at least 8 times out of 10. Then very gradually move the helper dog closer, keeping in mind that your dog needs to be successful nearly always. If she can't respond, the distractions are too much for her. After she's ok with a calm helper dog, move the helper dog further away and have his handler do some obedience with him, play with him, get him to bark etc. Then add another dog, change the environment etc. You must do this in several locations with several distractions in order for your dog to generalize the behavior. I'd have her on a long line until she comes to you reliably around other dogs. This way you can control her self-reinforcing behaviours - if you call for her and she doesn't come but instead chooses to dig or whatever, she just reinforced herself for the behaviour of NOT coming to you when called. Then take her off the line in a safe situation like a tennis court and start again with no distractions and then gradually add distractions like you did before. Practice three times a day. If you're really committed, you can stop feeding her from her bowl and only give her food as reinforcement for recalls. I don't mean not feeding her - you must set her up for success so that she gets her daily amount of food as rewards. Getting her to see coming to you as the way food is provided is excellent in building a reinforcement history for the recall. It's useful to view reinforcement histories as a bank balance: you make very small deposits hundreds and thousands of times in order to make a larger withdrawal every now and then (reward often with food and other good things and you can make a big withdrawal and call her to you when you want to leave the dog park, which is a really "expensive" behaviour for most dogs). I guarantee that will work, but it's a lot to do. I know, because I've just spent several posts complaining about Rho's poisoned recall cue  Edited to add: It also sounds like being off-leash is a huge thing for her at the moment, because she gets to run around free pretty rarely. This is unfortunately how things are for a lot of urban dogs, but you can work to lessen her view that being off leash is a major opportunity for fun that must be exploited. If you can get your hands on Leslie McDevitt's book Control Unleashed, get it. It has excellent games for this sort of thing explained in detail. I've borrowed my copy to a friend so I can't give details, but the gist of it is, that you very gradually teach the dog that good things happen WITH you instead of away from you when the leash is dropped or the leash is undone. Control Unleashed also has an excellent Yahoo group archive (the group's now inactive) so you might want to search that. Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Nov 13, 2010 |
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Nov 13, 2010 08:32
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a life less posted:Advice... First of all, thank you so much a life less for all the advice! Our battle plan for today: neighbours help us test which sounds set her off. Finding out the baseline. Then we start working, working, working with the counterconditioning. I realise that we've been looking at the amount of excercise, not the quality. We've seen her tired, and it's not how she usually ends up after one sniffing walk in the woods, one jog a day (~30 minutes-80 minutes each) and one visit to the dog park (where she'll play for some time, but not the whole time we're there, because the other dogs get tired before her or there are no other dogs). We'll try more fetching/calling between us in the dog park and look into canicross/biking/rollerskating (gotta check if I find my old skates) quickly. I still have some questions: Spontaneous situations. When she starts barking at the noises, she'll keep on barking after the immediate stimulus is gone (we see the neighbour halfway across the street, she's still barking at the sound). No treats then? Treating then would probably help her learn that barking means food. Should we just not treat at all in those situations, since we can't hit the cue? Try to do planned practice so much it overweighs the spontaneous situations? Planned situations. How long should the training sessions be? Some amount of minutes? Until she's more relaxed? I've been thinking about what could've contributed to the escalation from the small and very bearable amount and loudness of barking from before. The timeline goes like this: Wednesday & Thursday I got sick with the flu, my man was at a training all day, then working at night which is very unusual (usually we're only away for some hours at a time). Thursday night the barking escalated while my man was at work. Yesterday (Friday) we tried to treat her when she barked, she now not only barks at things but barks at us for food specifically. Or at least she doesn't want cuddles or play. What do you guys and gals think? By the way, I know Pet Island loves crating, but did you know it's actually illegal here in Finland? You can only hold a dog in a container temporarily (because of sickness/transportation or such things), and if it's more permanent, the crate needs to be over 3 square meters for a 30kg dog. So, bigger than a double bed. That means that it's no good for crating the way it's meant to be done. Hiekka fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Nov 13, 2010 |
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Nov 13, 2010 11:30
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Update on Rho, we just came back from Agility practice. I had him on a long line and I pulled his nose up from the ground each time he tried to sniff. It kind of worked, and we were able to do a jump-tunnel-jump sequence AND he responded to me after taking an obstacle once or twice without trying to sniff the ground first. I guess that's a start  I have to be careful to not be emotional about pulling his head up though, since a part of our problem seems to be that he sees me as somehow threatening and I absolutely don't want to make that worse.
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Nov 13, 2010 11:41
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Rixatrix posted:This is solid advice. I would however take it even more slowly. If you've had a recall cue previously, it may well have become poisoned, if sometimes coming to you when called has led to bad consequences (i.e. no more play, upset owner etc.). You may want to teach her a completely new cue. Start with her on leash in a very boring environment or in your own home and reward for coming to you from a few feet away. Then very gradually make the distance longer. Everyone has given you solid advice re: recall. I'm quoting this post since it's great advice, and really thorough. I just want to add that you shouldn't assume that just because your dog knows how to recall in the house that she knows to recall outdoors, despite it seeming obvious to us. Dogs do not generalize well, so while a dog might understand that sit means sit in the kitchen, it might just look at you blankly when you ask the same thing in the living room, front porch, street, park, etc. I would start recall from scratch. Start in a boring room and reward like crazy for compliance. Then slowly start adding distractions, but don't add too much too fast. Your goal is to add additional distractions once your dog is responding 90%+ in a certain set of circumstances. Also, don't call your dog unless you're sure it will come. If you call it, and it doesn't come, you've just taught your dog that ignoring you is an option. In a perfect world you don't want this thought to ever cross your dog's mind. If you need your dog to come and you're not sure it will comply, attach a training leash during play and physically go to get the dog. Recall during play is just about the hardest thing to call your dog back from, so that should be last on your list once your dog is solid recalling outside, or with another dog in close proximity, etc. Rixatrix that's great news on Rho. Hiekka posted:still have some questions: Yeah, we have a few folks here on PI for whom crating is not an option. There are always options if that's the case. Regarding your first question, my dog occasionally reacts to big black poodle/waterdog/giant schnauzer looking things while on leash. For the most part I've been classically conditioning her, with some operant conditioning thrown in. When big black dogs get the drop on us and my dog reacts I will quickly run a treat past her nose to get her attention. I then ask for her to sit and focus while I reward her heavily for the focus until the other dog is gone, and I make a mental note to be more vigilant next time. (I also play the "look at that" game where I give her the cue to look at the thing that's bothering her, then back to me for the reward. Being able to see the trigger to keep tabs on it while simultaneously rewarding for focus can be very helpful. I'm not sure how easily you can apply it to your situation, but I thought I'd mention it.) So, I would probably try to quiet her down operantly in the situation you described. Break focus with a treat and then after that reward for the refocus4 on you. I would keep desensitization sessions relatively short -- maybe 5-10 minutes max. Also, read the desensitization section in the first post. Start slow and proceed only when your dog feels okay about the previous step. The barking could have been a reaction to you falling sick and the routine being messed up. Hopefully once she's less stressed about various triggers the changes in routine won't be so alarming to her. a life less fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Nov 13, 2010 |
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Nov 13, 2010 14:01
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a life less posted:Everyone with a barky/reactive dog should watch this video. It's one of the simplest and best examples of counterconditioning that you can find. Thank you for this. That would have sped up the process for us I think, but it will still definitely be a huge help.
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Nov 13, 2010 20:07
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Ok, so I was raised in a household of old school training, with some serious R-/P+ methodology. There wasn't too much of the "alpha" crap going on, but my dad had little patience for disobedience. My concerns are that when I bought Loki, those are the methods I used to train him. (Mostly because it was all I knew, and also because at the time my dad was infallible in his knowledge of dog training. Boy was I wrong  ) He learned sit and stay very well, but to this day I have problems with him coming to me and I think it stems from that old style of training. Then I got Thor, and actually haven't done a whole lot of training with him, mostly because I've been lurking PI for about a year now and know that old school idea mostly in't used anymore. Now I'd like to start an R+/P- approach with Thor, and if I can, recondition Loki to it as well. I'm afraid that I've made Loki an incredibly anxious, unhappy dog and it breaks my heart knowing that I'm the cause even though I didn't know any better at the time. I've already bought a clicker, and luckily for me, both dogs are incredibly food motivated. I guess my question would be, how hard would it be to "fix" Loki, and where should I start?
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Nov 13, 2010 22:59
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rear end Crackers! posted:I've already bought a clicker, and luckily for me, both dogs are incredibly food motivated. I guess my question would be, how hard would it be to "fix" Loki, and where should I start?  People cross over from traditional dog training to +R/-P all the time. It may well be that Loki's reluctance for coming to you stems from how the recall cue was trained. If I were you, I'd reteach things from scratch with +R/-P and see what happens. Start with him like with a puppy: load the clicker and teach an easy behaviour, such as targeting. Keep your criteria really easy at first, so that you get to reinforce really often (often as in how fast you are able to click, move your hand to treat bag, deliver treat and click again). You need to get Loki to understand he can control the click and the reward, and that no bad things will happen if he guesses "wrong". With a traditionally trained dog it may take a while to get them to offer behavior, but he'll get it for sure. Edit: Clicker Solutions is an excellent resource, here's a link http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm They also have a very active and friendly Yahoo group you might want to join. Lots and lots of expertise there and people are very willing to help! Also, have a video showing how to shape a hand touch http://vimeo.com/16805482 Keep in mind that this dog is very "operant", i.e. willing to offer behavior and obviously a skilled learner. You'll need to take things more slowly with your dogs, but the method stays the same. a life less I have some suggestions you might consider to add to your excellent OP if you don't mind! Under vi Training methods you left out targeting. Targeting is different from luring in that a target is easier to fade than a lure. A lure is when you use a primary reinforcer (i.e. food, toy, whatever it is the dog ultimately wants) to get the behavior. Targeting is when you teach the dog to touch or orient to a target (touch a mouse pad with his nose or paw for example). The dog has learned previously that C&T follows from touching the target, so the target isn't a primary reinforcer. In order for that bit to make any sense to newbies, clarification on the terms primary and secondary reinforcer needs to be added. Primary reinforcers are food, toys, access to other dogs, getting to go out of the door etc, anything the dog ultimately wants. A secondary reinforcer is the click or marker word. A tertiary bridge is a signal that the secondary reinforcer is on its way ("Good, keep doing that and you will get a click"), but that's a pretty advanced and somewhat controversial concept. Also, some people like to add extinction to the four quadrants of R/P. Extinction is when a behavior that is no longer reinforced starts to occur less and less and eventually stops. It's worthwhile to note that some behaviors are really difficult to extinguish, since they are self-reinforcing i.e. performing them is enough to keep them going and thus it's difficult for the trainer to control the reinforcement. Barking is like this for a lot of dogs. This topic brings out the training nerd in me 
Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Nov 14, 2010 |
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Nov 14, 2010 08:22
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rear end Crackers! posted:I've already bought a clicker, and luckily for me, both dogs are incredibly food motivated. I guess my question would be, how hard would it be to "fix" Loki, and where should I start? You've mentioned a few times how subdued Loki is, so it's possible that he'll never be "fixed". I'd do as Rixatrix said and show him that there is no wrong answer, and reward him for creativity. Have you heard of 101 Things To Do With A Box? Give it a quick google. It's essentially a free shaping exercise where you introduce something foreign into the environment and you click/treat the dog each time he interacts with it. You can either have an end goal in mind, or you can just wing it and see where you and your dog end up. Here's Dr. Sophia Yin doing a box exercise with her dog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0XuafyPwkg A lot of crossover dogs have trouble with these kinds of exercises since they're afraid of giving the wrong answer, but I think that if they 'get' what it is you want them to do it's a tremendous confidence builder. Rixatrix, good idea. I think extinction deserves its own section since it doesn't quite belong in the quadrants section, but is related. I'll give due credit to you. I've not added it yet, but will soon. Edit: Added your suggestions. I lumped extinction in with classical conditioning instead of the reinforcement section, and added a tiny suggestion to read said section after the reinforcement stuff. If I've screwed anything up please let me know. (I've not had my morning coffee yet!) a life less fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Nov 14, 2010 |
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Nov 14, 2010 14:56
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Double post time. I added the Tools of the Trade section where I go over the basic items you'll need to train your dog. Quicklink here.
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Nov 14, 2010 20:11
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Great thread ! Gotta pimp an awesome book I picked up when I was a kid, http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...epage&q&f=false It's called 'communicating with your dog' and from what I remember it's a really well structured way to train your dog through to a pretty high standard. You cover the basics first, then move onto showier 'trick' commands. It also covers a few common problem behaviours. Some of the methodology is probably a bit outdated since I picked it up in the mid/late 90s, but all in all it's a pretty sound book iirc. Has anyone else heard of/used this book? I never see it mentioned. Also; I'm waiting for a callback from a local group to see if there's a Good Citizen training course starting up soon for Dan . The UK GC scheme is way more intense than the US - here's the requirements for the highest, Gold, Award:quote:Description of Exercises The dog has to pass every requirement to get the certificate. Intense, huh?
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Nov 14, 2010 20:36
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a life less posted:I added the Tools of the Trade section where I go over the basic items you'll need to train your dog. Just a note about the prong collar. Suzanne Clothier, who no longer uses prongs in training but wants people to use them correctly, says (emphasis hers): Suzanne Clothier posted:"When properly fitted, the prong collar should be at roughly the mid-way point on the dog's neck, with the chain portion flat, not sagging. Beware those who recommend fitting a prong collar (or any collar) up high, near the dog's ears - their intention is to cause pain by putting the collar in this nerve rich, muscle poor area of great sensitivity."
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Nov 14, 2010 20:41
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a life less posted:You've mentioned a few times how subdued Loki is, so it's possible that he'll never be "fixed". See this is the thing I'm most worried about. However, he becomes a completely different dog when treats are involved, so I'm really hoping that I can really build his confidence up through food. Rixatrix posted:If I were you, I'd reteach things from scratch with +R/-P and see what happens. Start with him like with a puppy: load the clicker and teach an easy behaviour, such as targeting. I figured I'd have to start over. I've been meaning to switch over for a while now, but this thread has really gotten me motivated
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Nov 14, 2010 21:11
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Great thread! Makes me very determined to get Koji's high five down. He's started doing it more in play, we just haven't nailed it down as a command yet, though I always find myself without the clicker during play. I'm thinking I just need to make a new sound I can make as a clicker in case I don't have it on me.
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Nov 14, 2010 21:17
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notsoape posted:
That is pretty intense. It sounds like a hybrid of the Canine Good Citizenship test and the Companion Dog title (first tier of competitive obedience). Cohen has her CGN, Canine Good Neighbour, which is the Canadian equivalent of the CGC. We had a very lax evaluator, and Cohen received it when she was about 8 months old. That might not have been possible at that point if held to the same requirements as UK GC. Let us know how the testing goes! Is it a common title for people to get? I'm psyched since there aren't too many people on the forums who title their dogs. I think it's a great excuse to spend some quality time working with your animal. Instant Jellyfish posted:st a note about the prong collar. Suzanne Clothier, who no longer uses prongs in training but wants people to use them correctly, says (emphasis hers): Good catch. Thanks for the quote. I added it to the prong collar section and gave you credit. Obviously I'm pretty unfamiliar with the ins and outs of prongs, so thanks for jumping in there.
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Nov 14, 2010 22:34
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a life less posted:Good catch. Thanks for the quote. I added it to the prong collar section and gave you credit. Obviously I'm pretty unfamiliar with the ins and outs of prongs, so thanks for jumping in there. No problem. I've never used one but I know a lot of people do and try to know as much as possible about different methods. I read a big argument about them recently and no one had a good reason for placing them right under the jawline other than that's where it gives the biggest reaction from the dog and I try not to go into training thinking "What will hurt my dog the most?". You might want to link the whole article, there is some good info about proper prong collar use and fitting there. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Nov 14, 2010 |
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Nov 14, 2010 23:06
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notsoape posted:Great thread I'm home now so I've had the chance to pour over some of today's links. notsoape, that book looks really solid. It's written very simply and looks well put together. Also, I adore the cover of that book. It's now a new goal for me to get a photo of my dog like that. I'll add it to the list of suggested reading. Instant Jellyfish posted:No problem. I've never used one but I know a lot of people do and try to know as much as possible about different methods. I read a big argument about them recently and no one had a good reason for placing them right under the jawline other than that's where it gives the biggest reaction from the dog and I try not to go into training thinking "What will hurt my dog the most?". I went over that article, as well as a few others from Clothier's site. She has some interesting stuff up there. I really like how she stresses that having a good working relationship with your dog is much more valuable than the tools you use. That bond is elusive, but infinitely rewarding once it's formed. I've linked the whole article as you suggested. Thanks again.
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Nov 15, 2010 03:04
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Some time ago I had asked how to teach my dog to roll over simply because I couldn't figure out how to lure or shape him into the needed movement. At the time, I had started with teaching him to lay on a particular side. So, he learned "lay left" and "lay right." And then I stopped because I let myself become too busy. Yesterday, I used a single strip of bacon torn into about 8 pieces. And 10 minutes later, had completed his roll over ability. I like smart dogs. And bacon.
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Nov 15, 2010 18:39
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This question is probably better asked in the primitive breeds thread, but I figure I'll hit you both up! I'm interested in teaching Sitka to do both weight pull and skijouring. We've got a good 4 months before we're able to start with either, but that gives me time to do some reading. I'll probably be asking some folks back home as well (when you have Rick Swenson as a resource it seems stupid not to hit him up for advice) but since this is the first time I'll be the primary one teaching the mal I'm a little nervous. So books and vid recommendations would be awesome.
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Nov 15, 2010 21:02
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Two questions! I'm looking at a dog for adoption, he's a Catahoula Leopard Dog cross. Reading about the breed I found out they're prone to deafness. If I were to adopt him it seems like it'd be a good idea to make hand signals as effective as voice commands in case he develops deafness. Is there a good website or book on using the two equally? Also, can someone post some more info on using the head collar or front clip harness to teach proper leash walking? He's a large dog and it doesn't seem he's been taught proper leash manners, I can control him with the basic leash and collar but he's got a ways to go before he's walking calmly. If I adopted him I'd give basic leash training a shot from the beginning but it'd be great to have some idea of how to use the harness or head collar to properly train.
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Nov 16, 2010 03:30
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Apidae posted:Two questions!
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Nov 16, 2010 04:29
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Apidae posted:Two questions! Firstly, I think Catahoulas are prone to deafness since they're a breed that comes in merle, and the irresponsible breeding of two merle dogs results in a high occurrence of deafness. Double merles are mostly white dogs, and a great deal of white dogs have white hair in their inner ear. This lack of pigment in the interior means that the hairs don't transmit sound properly, and they end up atrophying and dying. A deaf dog will be deaf from soon after birth. So if you get him and he isn't deaf yet, I don't think there's any increased chance of him going deaf any sooner than any other breed. Secondly, dogs are masters of body language. It's us humans who prefer to use verbal language. So it's highly recommended that you pair a visual signal with everything you teach a dog. The dog will learn faster, retain information longer, and you can wow your friends by controlling your dog silently by employing hand gestures. When I teach my dog something it's the hand signal I create first, and only once she understands that do I add a verbal cue. I find hand signals pretty self explanatory, but if you'd like some ideas for various signs I can offer up a few. _____________________________________ I'm going to use the rest of this post as a sort of loose leash walking mega-post. Here are three videos that should be helpful in teaching a dog how to walk loosely on leash: How to train your dog not to pull by Kikopup (youtube) No Pulling Problem Solving by Kikopup (youtube) This one is more about the equipment (specifically the no-pull harness and head halter): Leash Walking, Equipment Tips by Kikopup (youtube) The woman who puts together those videos is a great R+ dog trainer, and I agree with just about every thing I see her post. It's often very helpful to see these things in action. Harnesses, collars, leashes, etc are just tools to help train your dog to walk by your side. Ideally, once you've taught your dog to walk at your side there should be no need for a leash (but of course you will still use one in the interest of keeping your dog safe, and obeying local leash laws). So, the following is something I've posted on the forums before about a really great method of how to train a dog to follow you, as opposed to you following it while outside. It's pretty similar to what's outlined in those videos, but does differ a bit. The following is a basic breakdown of the steps to teaching a solid loose leash walk
Again, this is not a heel, just loose lead. But once learned, it can easily be kicked up into a heel. It is also not something you just start outside on your walk. While you may very well be able to use it that way, I think it is more effective if you start small and build. Ok, here is what you do. I am assuming that at this time, your dog knows what the clicker means, so we're ready to move on. (Or, without a clicker, use your sufficiently charged marker word.) If the dog gets overly excited when trying to attach the collar or lead, it would be best to spend several session on just that first. Show him the collar, wait for calm, click and reinforce. Put it on his neck, click when he is calm and treat. Gradually work up to putting it on and having him stay calm. This may take several sessions. Next, work with the leash. Show it to him and wait for him to be calm, then click and treat. When he stays calm, start clipping it on him. Clip it on the wait for him to be calm and look at you, then click and treat. Again, this may take several sessions. I don't start training on walks, I start in my kitchen or basement. Initially, you are not moving very much, so you don't need a lot of room. And let's face facts, if you can't do this in the kitchen, where the dog knows food reinforcers are all around, you will not be able to achieve loose leash outside where there are so many things to compete for your dog's attention. Each step of this exercise should be practiced to 80-90% compliance, then proofed on different locations, gradually raising distractions. It's all about baby steps. Now you are ready to move. Hold the leash in your right hand looped over you last three fingers, the clicker in you right hand between your thumb and first finger and the treats in your left hand because you will be delivering them off your left leg. The reason for delivering them off the left leg is because this is where you want the dog to be. Dogs, like people, will return to the place of the greatest reinforcement. Think of it this way, if I gave you a ten dollar bill everytime you stood on my left, 6-12 inches off my body, parrallel to me, where would you be spending a lot of time? Dogs are no different. Now, move only one step only in either a sideways, back or diagonal direction. If your dog follows, just one step, or follows you with his eyes while remaining in place, click and treat off your left leg. Over the next few sessions, move any direction but forward, one step and click and treat if he moves with you or looks at you. Now you are ready for a few steps, so take two steps, again, avoiding forward and click and treat as soon as he takes two steps with you. He should be moving with you at this point. I find the hardest part is bending over quickly enough to be sure my dogs keep four feet on the floor. Do not click if he is on his hind legs, but if you do click ALWAYS treat. This is where you add a cue. This is not heel, so I use "Let's go". Once you are ready to actually begin walking, I find it best to start out backwards. When you are walking forward, dogs have a tendancy to focus on what is ahead of them. When you walk backwards, they are walking towards you and you are their focus. Now you can begin moving forward. This may take several days or weeks to get to this point. Take three steps, click treat, then go to 4 steps, click treat, then maybe 6 then 10, then...well...you get it. So, that's the basic gist of it. Start slow. Reward often. Good luck! a life less fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Nov 16, 2010 |
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Nov 16, 2010 05:07
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I think I'm suffering from a lack of imagination trying to think of hand signals that are distinct enough from each other for commands. If he ever went totally deaf I'd have to have a LOT of confidence in him before letting him off a long leash, that would suck for such a large active dog but I guess that's just more impetus to train well. I'm still in the very early stages of thinking of adopting him though, so this is me getting way ahead of myself. I just went to hang out with him at the shelter for the first time today and I found out he sort of knows sit/down/shake a paw, but only pays attention if he's not watching everything else going on in the yard. His "sit" is him briefly touching his butt to the ground then sometimes bouncing right into my face because "OKAY I DID IT LET'S GO!". The shelter volunteer out in the yard told me not many other people can handle him, he's a big strong boy. Again, just another reason to train him well. I think a lot of the ADD comes from him still being in puppy mode, being unaltered (the adoption fee coveres the neutering, it'll get done), and just excitement at being outside. Basic manners such as not jumping up, walking calmly and coming when he's called will be first on the list, then once I'm confident in that we'd focus on more things. Clicker training is awesome and I can't wait to try it, and getting involved in agility or flyball would be all kinds of fun. /rambling about potential awesome dog Oh, another question. One worry I'm having is him marking in the house. How can I prevent this before it happens and what can I do to discourage it? The OP says something about addressing marking seperately from housetraining but I didn't see where. If he marks now, will he be likely to mark less often once he's neutered? Edit: a life less Thank you! He's a Mastiff X Catahoula and the colouring is Blue Merle, so he's somewhat dark, and he's not purely a cross of two merles. Plus he's a year old so hopefully we're in the clear. Some ideas for hand signals would be awesome, the dogs I grew up with were trained mostly with verbal cues and likely unconscious body language, I'm not sure what sort of signals would be best to get and keep a dog's attention, and be different enough from each other. Fat Dio fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Nov 16, 2010 |
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Nov 16, 2010 05:32
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Apidae posted:Plus he's a year old so hopefully we're in the clear. He'll be fine. Seriously. As far as hand signals go, most of mine are artifacts from the training process. As in, they're still sort of similar to the luring or whatever I did when I was teaching my dog something new -- only now they're less exaggerated and a bit more "stylized". Some basic commands and their gestures: Sit = closed fist held on my chest, sometimes paired with a wrist flick. Down = arm held out at my side, palm upwards in a sort of "stop" position -- or a point at the ground, depending on the distance I am from my dog. Stand = palm up held in front of me. Stay = quick pass of my open palm across my dog's field of vision. Come = arm held out to the side, then brought in quickly to my chest. Heel (to get into heel position) = left arm held straight down and against my body, hand outstretched. Heel (while moving) = left arm bent at elbow, held tight to stomach. Back up = hand bent at the wrist, in a "scoot away from me" type of gesture. Now, some of the tricks: Bow = arm extended low, like I'm a performer bowing to my partner. Beg = closed fist, arm in front of me held out from my body a few inches. Stand on two legs = both arms up Touch my hand as a target = a snap then an open hand. Speak = a quickly opened hand. Scoot (run to me, spin 180 degrees and get between my legs) = quick flick of the wrist while moving my arm up and forwards.
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Nov 16, 2010 14:53
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Thanks for the ideas, it's a big help. I'm moving closer to probably adopting him so this is getting exciting. The Kikopup videos are AWESOME, I was up too late last night watching them. I especially like the idea of her asking for eye contact before giving a treat when teaching "Leave it", I'd been wondering how to keep the dog from fixating on your hand full of delicious treats. Edit: Well, nevermind - someone swooped in and adopted him. Fat Dio fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Nov 17, 2010 |
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Nov 16, 2010 16:16
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a life less posted:I can think of a few things. Thanks for your reply. The timeline goes something like this: I'm sitting working, she comes up and puts her paws on my armrest. I either tell her off or wait for her to correct herself if she's not too hyper. If she sits or downs, I turn and pet her and then get up to see if she wants something in particular. If she starts pawing at me, then I tell her off and sit. If she's in a mood, she'll maybe paw harder or nip or maybe sit and then bark at me. It's at this point that I put her in the bathroom. I try to give her attention whenever she sits for me. If I see her sit, I pet her and then try to figure out what she wants. It's just that sometimes I can't figure out what she wants. She'll ignore her toys (and me) if I try to play until I go back to work and then she's at it again. Typing this out makes it sound a lot like she's just bored, but she does it even when I know she's very sleepy. Time-outs do calm her down temporarily though, so I guess we'll keep at it. I've also been using 'Shhh' as a calming signal for a while now because she barks at things outside a lot. I'm working on reinforcing it more. I have another training question. Psyche is very good at standing up on her hind legs and balancing (she watched for a squirrel standing up for like 30 seconds the other day, it was soooooo cute). I'd like to figure out how to get her to do that on command, but before I do, I'm wondering if that's bad for her legs. It's an unnatural position and she'll small so I don't want to force her to strain herself. She already does plenty of things where she's liable to hurt herself (like falling up stairs and acting like a mountain goat on our furniture).
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Nov 17, 2010 20:33
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Kiri koli posted:I have another training question. Psyche is very good at standing up on her hind legs and balancing (she watched for a squirrel standing up for like 30 seconds the other day, it was soooooo cute). I'd like to figure out how to get her to do that on command, but before I do, I'm wondering if that's bad for her legs. It's an unnatural position and she'll small so I don't want to force her to strain herself. She already does plenty of things where she's liable to hurt herself (like falling up stairs and acting like a mountain goat on our furniture). I actually taught Koji this trick. He's about the same size as Psyche and I don't make him stand for very long, maybe a few seconds. I call it "Meerkat" since that's what he looks like when he stands that way, but you can call it "up" or "stand" or whatever you want. It was really a simple trick to teach, too. I held up a high value treat just out of reach, and he'd have to stand up on his back legs to get to it. I also didn't let it count if he half-assed it and leaned on something (like me or a chair), and he'd have to do it again. Starting pairing it with the word and he'll do it on command now. Took maybe one or two good sessions before he nailed it, probably because it means good things are coming when he does it.
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Nov 17, 2010 21:26
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paisleyfox posted:I actually taught Koji this trick. He's about the same size as Psyche and I don't make him stand for very long, maybe a few seconds. I call it "Meerkat" since that's what he looks like when he stands that way, but you can call it "up" or "stand" or whatever you want. It was really a simple trick to teach, too. I held up a high value treat just out of reach, and he'd have to stand up on his back legs to get to it. I also didn't let it count if he half-assed it and leaned on something (like me or a chair), and he'd have to do it again. Starting pairing it with the word and he'll do it on command now. Took maybe one or two good sessions before he nailed it, probably because it means good things are coming when he does it. We taught our cat to do this. I'd hold up a treat above his head and when he stood up on his hind legs (with his butt on the ground) I'd click the clicker and then give him the treat. (Edit - actually, after I thought about it I remembered that what we started with was the treat in front of his head and then slowly bring it above him - as he followed the treat with his head he'd sit up on his own. THEN I'd click the cliker.) We combined it with the word "Up" and a snap in the air. The snap is to differentiate it from the other "Up", which is to say "Up" and then pat where you want him to be. For example, if I pat my leg, he'll stand up and put his front paws on my leg, or if I pat the couch and say "Up" he'll get on the couch. Probably shouldn't have used the same word for both, but I figure he's following the hand signals more than the word anyway. And he's not 100% on any of it because he's a goddamn cat and never listens. He does however, do an "Angry Up" sometimes. My husband will snap his fingers and say "Up" and if Iggy's really pissed off or feeling rambunctious he'll launch himself at my husband's arm and hang on to it with all four legs. He can then swing him up onto his shoulder. We've tried to catch it on video but he won't do it for a camera. Nione fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Nov 17, 2010 |
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Nov 17, 2010 22:17
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Kiri koli posted:I have another training question. Psyche is very good at standing up on her hind legs and balancing (she watched for a squirrel standing up for like 30 seconds the other day, it was soooooo cute). I'd like to figure out how to get her to do that on command, but before I do, I'm wondering if that's bad for her legs. It's an unnatural position and she'll small so I don't want to force her to strain herself. She already does plenty of things where she's liable to hurt herself (like falling up stairs and acting like a mountain goat on our furniture). Her legs should be fine. It does stress the hip joints and requires a lot of core strength to achieve, so if she's ever hesitant to stand on two legs then I wouldn't press the issue. Teaching Cohen this was done in two parts. First I was trying to teach her to beg (which I had been unsuccessful with for months, but finally accomplished using a spoon coated in peanut butter as a lure) and one day, after she'd recently learned beg, she was really excited and stood up instead. I captured that behaviour (you can see some of the work I was doing on it in this video) and put it to a cue. The cue is "be people" 'cause I think it's adorable. A lot of people have trouble with it since, as I mentioned, it requires a lot of core strength and you need to build to it gradually. But it sounds like Psyche already has the capability so it's just a matter of catching it. Try the wooden spoon coated in peanut butter trick. It forces the dog to maintain a position in order to continue being rewarded.
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Nov 17, 2010 22:27
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Thanks everyone, I'll make that the next trick I teach her. I already hold my hand over her head as the signal for jump, so I'll have to work on a new signal and probably ease her into it. I have another question about treats for training. Psyche will work for kibble (yay!), but I think she's starting to get bored with it on walks. We use turkey hot dogs for her special recall treat and we buy those refrigerated meat logs for her classes, but those aren't really things I want to carry about on her walks everyday. I could suck it up and deal with it, but we also give her things to chew inside (probably too often because she tears through anything in ten minutes or less) and I worry about her weight. Are there brands of kibble that are particularly tasty/smelly that I could buy to use just on walks? Would the flavor difference be big enough that she would care? I don't have a good sense of how many calories a piece of kibble has, but I think it must be a lot smaller than most of the other dried treats I see, like dried liver or whatever. Her current food is Innova.
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Nov 18, 2010 02:07
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Kiri koli posted:
Try Orijen 6 Fish. When I open a new bag and the fishy smell is all fresh Cohen goes nuts for it. For walks I use a mix of that (her normal kibble) and dried liver (home made or purchased). Sometimes I throw some cheese or dried hotdogs into the mix, but it sounds like you use those for special rewards.
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Nov 18, 2010 03:19
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Kiri koli posted:I have another training question. Psyche is very good at standing up on her hind legs and balancing (she watched for a squirrel standing up for like 30 seconds the other day, it was soooooo cute). I'd like to figure out how to get her to do that on command, but before I do, I'm wondering if that's bad for her legs. It's an unnatural position and she'll small so I don't want to force her to strain herself. She already does plenty of things where she's liable to hurt herself (like falling up stairs and acting like a mountain goat on our furniture). I don't know if what she said was actually true as she was a physical therapist and not a vet/orthopedist, but I worry enough not to try my luck. There are other ways to develop core strength so that's what I do with my dogs.
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Nov 18, 2010 08:20
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So I have a quick question. What is the best age to start advanced training with a puppy? Do they respond to the clicker at an early age or should that be saved until they are more mature?
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Nov 19, 2010 02:05
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panictheory posted:So I have a quick question. What is the best age to start advanced training with a puppy? Do they respond to the clicker at an early age or should that be saved until they are more mature? Clickers can be used with pretty much anything with a spinal column so they certainly will work on an 8 week old puppy. Just keep it fun and low pressure or your pup may come to dislike or fear training sessions. This will depend on the personality of your dog but watch for stress signals and use short sessions at first.
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Nov 19, 2010 02:15
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