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Kerfuffle posted:This came up in the pet food megathread recently, post from Instant Jellyfish: Whats the benefit of using rice/potato flour over white/wheat flour?
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Jan 18, 2011 23:21
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Ridonkulous posted:Whats the benefit of using rice/potato flour over white/wheat flour? Wheat is a common allergen for many dogs. Check the Pet Nutrition thread.
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Jan 19, 2011 15:12
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MrFurious posted:Wheat is a common allergen for many dogs. Check the Pet Nutrition thread. Exactly this. If you don't have either rice or potato flour, I've heard of people have success using potato flakes, but I'm not sure what else you'd have to adjust in the recipe to make it come together properly.
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Jan 20, 2011 08:39
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Update on leash issues: Holy poo poo results! I'd been dragging her up and down the sidewalk away from distractions for a week, but after only two and a half days of doing the "Stop, sit, focus" technique there's actual results! She still isn't real good at looking up at me and waiting for the command to go forward, but now when she starts tugging and I stop, she'll trot over to me, sit down, and pout a little bit before continuing forward. She still sometimes goes "No mom I'm sniffin here it smells good  " when I try and coax her over from spending way too long at a single spot, but she's much much better about not hauling rear end to go see people passing by. It's helped that it's been very cold and crappy here so there haven't been many distractions on the walks, but she's doing way better! During our lunch walk she even came over close to me automatically when she saw the mail man walking out of a building, so of course I praised her like crazy after making her sit.It's ALMOST as if the folks at PI know exactly what they're talking about when it comes to dogs!
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Jan 20, 2011 19:57
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Not sure if anyone is interested, but we had a good week, so I've decided to write an update of our efforts in training a reactive dog. So as a quick recap, Psyche is both dog and people reactive. I use the word reactive instead of aggressive because some of her reactions show none of the physical signs of aggressiveness, they are more like an over-excited dog who is excessively vocal at certain triggers. Her other reactions do have signs of fear or aggression with pricked ears, growling, etc. Our work in the last months has been eliminating reactions to small stimuli and shifting her aggressive reaction progressively toward her non-aggressive reactions. She has been making slow, but steady progress. About a month ago, we started her on Prozac in the smallest dosage per weight recommended. I was skeptical that it would do anything and was feeling bad about drugging her unnecessarily, but I think now I was just being impatient. In the last week, we have been noticing that she is more relaxed at home, being able to chill out when we aren't directly distracting her from the noisy neighbors. I am able to call her off barking at our hallway much more often than before and her reactions toward people and dogs are lessened as well. We had two sessions with a friend and by the end of the second, she was sitting politely for him to throw her treats right in front of our door, which is 'her' territory and where she is usually the most reactive. The clincher was when we took her to class yesterday and she strolled in past five assistant trainers who were moving around equipment to set up class. Everyone immediately noticed the change and commented on it. Psyche still had some outbursts, but things that would have previously sent her into a barking fit now just produced some uncomfortable growling. At this point the trainer and vet would have us up the dose, but I think I want to wait and see the fully developments of this dose. If we can keep her here and increase her training instead, it will be easier to back her off the drug later. Maybe if she plateaus in a few weeks, we'll go to a medium dose, but no higher. At any rate, it's looking very hopeful that the Prozac will be helpful in the long run. The other thing we started this week was hardcore muzzle training. We acclimatized her to the muzzle over several weeks (I have a great video for this) and then took it with us to class. The trainer started us on a negative reinforcement exercise where, with muzzle on, I picked Psyche up and brought her very close to the trainer. Psyche freaked out when the trainer looked at her (I'm still unclear as to why she was a scared as she was because she has previously gotten this close to our friend, right out of biting distance...probably the muzzle was the added thing that scared her). She was really scared, shaking and everything. As soon as she showed a calming signal like lick lipping, I backed her off, in effect rewarding her for being calm by taking away the scary thing. I think it's a good exercise and we will be continuing it in class and attempting it at home with friends of ours. The only thing that worries me is, at Psyche's outburst, the trainer looked REALLY uncomfortable. I mean, she was looking sick to her stomach. She even gave us a speech about just letting Psyche have her outburst and how that's usually really hard on people to watch. My husband and I are pretty unaffected because, as long as it's helping her in the long run, Psyche can be a little uncomfortable. She was muzzled so everyone was safe and her outburst was short. Total time from outburst to shaking/heavy breathing to lip lick/looking away was less than a minute. I think Psyche understands to a point what the muzzle means and so that scared her, but it was her first experience with it. I think Psyche will do better next time, but I worry that the trainer, being so uncomfortable, might slow things down if Psyche can tell she's uncomfortable. Anyway, progress is progress. It's been about five months since we adopted Psyche and I am completely amazed with how far she has come considering we're averaging less than four 1-hour classes a month due to weather and outside of class we haven't had the tools (people and dogs) to really dig in and work with her. Plus, the last five months were the busiest of my life to date due to my career, so I'm pretty hopeful that the next five months will be even better. Edit: omg, sorry that was so long.
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Jan 22, 2011 17:35
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Kiri koli posted:Thank you so much for the update! I love hearing how other people are working with "challenging" dogs. I was going to comment on your last post but forgot so I'm really glad you stuck with the prozac at a low dose. Just like with people it can take up to a month before you see any difference because it takes a long time for brain chemistry to change. Keep looking for and appreciating the subtle changes. I've found keeping a daily log has really helped me notice how far my dog and I have come. The negative reinforcement with the muzzle is interesting. I haven't heard of that technique before. Its weird about your trainer's behavior though. Maybe she was just having a rough day? Please keep us updated. Its really nice to know I'm not the only one who struggles some days or feels overwhelmed.
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Jan 22, 2011 20:34
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Thank you so much for the update! I love hearing how other people are working with "challenging" dogs. I was going to comment on your last post but forgot so I'm really glad you stuck with the prozac at a low dose. Just like with people it can take up to a month before you see any difference because it takes a long time for brain chemistry to change. Keep looking for and appreciating the subtle changes. I've found keeping a daily log has really helped me notice how far my dog and I have come. It is really nice to know that there are others out there that are working hard to help their dogs. We have a lot of dogs in our apartment complex and, while I'm sure that most of them have given their owners hell about something at some point, at least they can go out in public without making a scene. Even in our reactive dog class, Psyche was always the worst. We were always the farthest from the group or the ones shut off in a corner. Only in the last few weeks have we been placed near the group and there's one other poor doggie that seems to need a bit more isolation than us now. For the trainer, I don't think it was a bad day because she had the exact same expression on her face the day we had our first consultation. She came to our apartment and we weren't sure if Psyche would react better meeting her up front or put away (I was honestly afraid she would hurt herself in her crate). We opted for up front and gave the trainer treats to throw to her. The trainer didn't throw any treats and just stood there (much closer than I would have suggested) really uncomfortable for a few minutes while Psyche barked at her and then told us to put Psyche away. Luckily Psyche was okay with hearing voices from the next room. She told us during the consultation that Psyche was in some 1% of dogs with serious issues, which I thought was harsh because by all accounts she didn't have these issues with her foster family and it was a new reaction. But anyway, I thought her attitude then was strange and a bit unprofessional. My husband said I was imagining it, but this seems to be that same thing. Maybe she had a bad experience or maybe she's just not good at dealing with this level of reactivity. A lot of the dogs she deals with seem to just have excitement or shyness issues. If we had another option for classes like this, I would probably check it out. As is, if I think it's a problem later, I'm going to ask if one of the assistants might be more comfortable doing the exercises. One of them was just certified as a trainer and it's not like they have to do anything. They just sit there and I handle the dog, at least until Psyche is comfortable to do more.
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Jan 22, 2011 21:42
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Kiri koli posted:She told us during the consultation that Psyche was in some 1% of dogs with serious issues, which I thought was harsh because by all accounts she didn't have these issues with her foster family and it was a new reaction. But anyway, I thought her attitude then was strange and a bit unprofessional. My husband said I was imagining it, but this seems to be that same thing. Maybe she had a bad experience or maybe she's just not good at dealing with this level of reactivity. A lot of the dogs she deals with seem to just have excitement or shyness issues. When I got Major his foster family said he got along well with other dogs and loved car rides  . Environment can make such a difference in dog behavior.I know what you mean about classes. Even if I were at the point were Major could drive someplace for classes the closest one is an hour away and I didn't feel comfortable there at all. The ones I like are at least an hour and a half away. I feel like having a class to go to each week would really help with some of his non-car issues but getting there just turns him into a total wreck so he can't learn anything.
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Jan 22, 2011 22:29
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Instant Jellyfish posted:When I got Major his foster family said he got along well with other dogs and loved car rides Ugh, I'm so glad you said that about environment. I've always had in the back of my head this fear that it was something we did because for her to go from fine with people and dogs to this just by coming home with us is mindblowing. But thinking about it more, the foster was this isolated place in the middle of nowhere where she had peace and quiet a lot of the time and the fosters were professionals who were able to instantly spot any trouble coming. Our apartment is crowded and loud and she can hear people all the time. We tune it out but it's definitely there. There are lots of other dogs she can only see while one a leash, whereas before she could meet them off-leash. It's a very different environment and unfortunately it traumatized her in a way no one could predict. It's too bad that classes are so far away. Could you arrange for private lessons? I wish we could do private lessons but they're too expensive. Edit: omg, I just reread the original email we were sent regarding Psyche's history for her first family. There is terrible poo poo in there that I totally forgot, like they bought her from a women selling puppies out of a barn who said that the puppies were kept isolated so that they would better 'bond' with the people who bought them. 
Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jan 23, 2011 |
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Jan 22, 2011 23:35
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That's really good news with Psyche. I'm always amazed by what medication has the capacity to do. The way you describe your trainer's reactions to your dog's reactivity is kind of confusing. I guess I personally would be pretty uncomfortable with trying to deal with a dog showing signs of aggression. But... I am not marketing my skills in this way... and your trainer is. I love reading about people's training successes. Kiri koli, you've been working hard with Psyche and have been doing some really good work. It sounds like you've really educated yourself, which to me is vitally important. You can't advance training if you don't have your fundamentals down. The learning is the easy part though -- putting it into practice is tough. And keeping puppies isolated in a barn? What the christ? You really have to wonder about some people, eh? As far as training goes up here, I've started participating in classes at my dog training place. Things are slow, so there aren't too many classes going on. No advanced classes -- just family dog. It's interesting watching people come into class the first day and really not have an idea of what they're doing (or they think they have an idea but they've been doing it wrong for x-months). I watched a big gruff guy drag his Vizsla puppy around by its collar, with plenty of leash pops in an attempt to get its attention. You really can't brow-beat clients into treating their dogs properly -- we'll be showing him the proper way to successfully get the dog's attention soon. A lot of folks come in thinking they know all about dog training 'cause they've read Cesar's book and seen every episode of his show.  Again, we can't really tell them they're wrong since it'd just go in one ear and out the other. We have to show them how to train positively and just hope that the results will speak for themselves.
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Jan 24, 2011 03:45
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I run a franchise for Bark Busters myself. I have been reading this thread and I find that my methods, by your classification systems, fall somewhere between old school and new school. It really depends on the temperament of the dog I am working with. Well, the client is working with. I work with some dogs that I would not dare handle. (Make the client do it) I have several clients that have been ordered by a judge to hire a trainer or they have to surrender the dog. (They are usually pretty lovely clients.) 99% of my clients fall into one of two categories - 1.) Puppy, help me raise him right (usually straightforward and easy in my book) and 2.) My dog attacks (insert noun here) and I need to stop it. Now before people jump down my throat, not all of us are the same. Given the huge number of Bark Busters, I am sure people have had plenty of lovely trainers before. Just look for reviews online, there are plenty of negative ones out there for our company. Really, the system we use in the field and the system that our home office wants us to use are fairly different - at least in the case here in the south. The guy who trained me in the BB system left the company immediately after he concluded running our class. I later was told by our CEO that "we always thought his methods were too confrontational." .... and that's great, great news, considering we had just paid upwards of 100k for our franchise. But that was all years ago. The relationship between the franchisee and franchisor is often tense and strange. Plus, they are weird Australians. It's interesting to see some of these things in this thread. Because of the solitary nature of my franchise, I rarely get a chance to talk with other trainers who are not using the BB system. I've always thought the best trainers would all use amalgamated systems anyways. A couple years ago I went out for 'advanced' training after 5 years in the field and the whole thing was about operant conditioning. One thing I can point out about our franchise without breaking my non-disclosure agreement is this: If any of us ever use electric shock, hitting or scruffing dogs, or anything of that sort, we lose our franchise. It's happened before. EDIT: This is a long thread, and I still haven't read all of it. I am sorry if any of that poo poo is a re-hash. For all I know there's some other Bark Buster on the SA forums that has gone over all this already. EDIT2: I can tell you as well that our entire philosophy is rooted deeply in the whole dominance theory. I myself am guilty of many of the things you have told people to avoid. However, as business owners we're generally aware of the latest trend to throw dominance theory, or at least parts of it, out the window. Most of us have modified the way we work with many of our clients, and of course this depends on what they want and what we can practically do. (Most of us.) I know this one guy who insists that when he corrects a dog he "wants to see it crying for momma" ... which is just LOVELY robayon fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 06:31
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robayon, I'm really interested in reading about your franchise and anything you can tell me about your training methods. Personally I would never ever dream of taking my dogs to a trainer who cannot or will not freely discuss the methods he is using, in part because I enjoy talking about training at least as much as I enjoy doing it and in part because I don't trust anyone that much, least of all with my dogs. Do you ever run into problems with (potential) clients because of your non-disclosure agreement? What do you tell your clients about how you train? I tend to believe that all effective training can be explained with learning theory, regardless of whether it's "old school" or "new school". Sure dogs have a capability for social learning, emotions play a part and there's a lot of other stuff happening that's not covered by learning theory, but these are quite difficult to control/work with effectively. What is it about the BB method that's so unique? Also, I guess I don't fully understand what it is about your training methods that might be compromised if you talk about it? I just paid quite a bit for three private lessons with a very well respected and successful Comp Obed trainer in my area. Two lessons in, she hasn't told me anything I didn't already know in theory. However she has observed me working with my dogs and has given me advice that's absolutely worth every cent, and it's custom made advice for me and my dogs specifically. In my opinion, that's what you pay a trainer for, not anything they could discuss over the phone or write online. I don't mean to come across as argumentative or aggressive. I just haven't ever encountered a dog training franchise before and I'm really curious 
Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 11:01
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a life less posted:Again, we can't really tell them they're wrong since it'd just go in one ear and out the other. We have to show them how to train positively and just hope that the results will speak for themselves. Our trainer basically tells people at the orientation class "I don't believe in this kind of training and if I see you doing this in class I'll ask you to leave", though I think she's really more concerned about people hitting their dogs or being really rough. I think if someone was constantly popping their dog she'd tell them not to do that and show them how to handle the dog, but if they kept with it she'd probably ask them to leave the class. But so far everyone I've seen at the classes is on board with her training It's kind of strange to have a smart dog in a training class because we're doing a lot of stuff Greta has already learned or really just needs practice on, or she picks it up really fast, while the other dogs are still working on that stuff. But it gives her a good socialization experience and helps us work on things while there are distractions around. It also means the trainer loves our dog, heh. And we get to attend the doggie socials after the class which is kind of like going to a dog park except not outside where it's freaking cold.
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Jan 24, 2011 14:13
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robayon posted:I run a franchise for Bark Busters myself. I have been reading this thread and I find that my methods, by your classification systems, fall somewhere between old school and new school. It really depends on the temperament of the dog I am working with. That's really interesting. I'd love the opportunity to pick your brain. You're the only Bark Buster franchise owner who's outed himself on the forums. There are a handful of people who have been through the Bark Busters program. Do you own your own dog? (I imagine just about every trainer has at least one dog!) What do you do with him or her? Any sports or other activities? Any titles? To what extent do you train him or her? Is it a dog who excels in advanced obedience, or more of a family dog, trained in the basics and that's it. Do you ever use a clicker? robayon posted:Well, the client is working with. I work with some dogs that I would not dare handle. (Make the client do it) I have several clients that have been ordered by a judge to hire a trainer or they have to surrender the dog. (They are usually pretty lovely clients.) 99% of my clients fall into one of two categories - 1.) Puppy, help me raise him right (usually straightforward and easy in my book) and 2.) My dog attacks (insert noun here) and I need to stop it. This is probably the toughest part -- the owners who really don't give a poo poo. They would make pretty terrible clients. I've not had any experience working with truly problematic dogs, and I imagine it would be difficult, to say the least. (So far I've only had access to people who adore their dogs and are happy to expend a great deal of energy on their animals.) I think the allure of the punishment-based training is that it can be fast. Most people don't have the time to teach their dogs what they want through encouragement, nor do they have the skillset to use rewards effectively. But making a dog cry out for momma changes behaviour immediately at least in the short term. (I know you said you don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a good example.) robayon posted:It's interesting to see some of these things in this thread. Because of the solitary nature of my franchise, I rarely get a chance to talk with other trainers who are not using the BB system. I've always thought the best trainers would all use amalgamated systems anyways. I'm surprised by the "solitary nature" of your franchise. The dog training community is pretty vocal and tight knit, from what I've seen. There are always events and seminars going on, books, and of course blogs and other internet media. I understand that your company requires you not disclose your methods (I understand that they do, but not why they do), but I think it's ultimately a little unhealthy not to be active within the community. Training methodologies change over time -- sometimes by a great deal. It's important to keep your finger on the pulse of the community at large. What do you think of alternative training methodologies? Ie, the "new school" stuff. Do you feel there is fallout from using softer methods? How do you merge positive reinforcement with positive punishment in your own training? I'm genuinely curious about your franchise and methods. I hope you don't mind the slew of questions. a life less fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 15:30
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a life less posted:The way you describe your trainer's reactions to your dog's reactivity is kind of confusing. I guess I personally would be pretty uncomfortable with trying to deal with a dog showing signs of aggression. But... I am not marketing my skills in this way... and your trainer is. Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm pretty immune to my dog at this point, but put current me in front of someone else's aggressive dog and I wouldn't be too happy. But I'd like to think if future me becomes a dog trainer who specifically holds reactive dogs classes and then I lead a client I've had for months through a (safe) muzzle training exercise that is practically guaranteed to provoke bad reactions at first...I'd like to think I'd be confident enough to at least hold a good poker face. At the end of the day, I don't really care if the trainer pulls weird faces at me for the whole class as long as we get results. I'm just concerned that, in an exercise that is supposed to show the dog that the thing in front of them isn't a threat, if she's uncomfortable enough for Psyche to pick up on it, that may be a problem. quote:And keeping puppies isolated in a barn? What the christ? You really have to wonder about some people, eh? Unfortunately, I'm more shocked these days when people aren't idiots because it means they applied some critical thinking. There's so much bad information out there... I agree with Rixatrix that I can't imagine using a trainer who didn't explain to me what they're doing. First, I want to know, and second, I think that understanding WHY something works (or doesn't) makes people more adaptable to new situations. Every dog/owner pair is unique and will require custom techniques. Having a trainer point them out is great; having a trainer who points them out AND tells you why so that you can make good decisions for yourself when the trainer is not around is wonderful. I'd be interested in hearing more about Bark Busters as well. If you can't discuss specific things...maybe we can just discuss dog training philosophies in general? 
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Jan 24, 2011 15:44
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Robayon I've got some questions that I hope you don't mind. None of this is attacking you at all, I'm just curious. I looked at Bark Busters briefly because it was one of the few training places in my area but a couple of things turned me off. I watched some videos of their training on youtube and read the website and it said that a home training session lasts 3-4 hours but has a lifetime guarantee. How exactly does that work? I know my dog shuts down after 15-20 minutes of training straight. Does the guarantee exclude changes in circumstance or if my dog starts barking/lunging/whatever for any reason do you come back out? Do you really think that you "growling" at a dog is the same as a dog growling at another dog or does it just work as a sort of a positive punishment? In the videos I saw it was often paired with a leash correction, is that used to "charge" the growl? For a noise sensitive dog would you change your methods to not rely loud noises/shake cans/throwing things as heavily? What about harder dogs? Just in general people who go on and on about what dogs are like "in the wild" bother me. I spent time in the middle of nowhere Bangladesh and saw groups of pariah dogs everywhere. They mostly hung out in ones and twos and never had an obvious rigid pack structure. I met a vet there who caught pariah dogs for blood tests and he never found them in packs either. They might gather in the same area like people in a food court but didn't really display wolf-like pack behavior. Edit: Sorry about the rant, have a pariah dog to make up for it. We gave her some bread because she seemed sad.  Click here for the full 1024x683 image. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 16:55
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How do you train a dog to let you know they need to go out in a certain way? I.e, other than nipping/pulling at our pant legs and feet. And mostly, how do you do this without training the dog that "Hey, when I do this, I get to go out! Imma do this ALL THE TIME?" instead of "Hey, when I have to potty, and I do this, I get to go out."
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Jan 24, 2011 20:19
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EVG, My dog isn't doing this yet either. But what I'm doing is, when he goes out for elimination purposes, we always take him out the same door, and then take him to the same place. I think eventually he will start going to this door when he needs to "go" as opposed to when he just wants to chase something that's in the yard (we have lots of different doors). Eventually all my dogs have somehow learned to do a polite bark--just one!--at the door when they need to go out, if no one is paying attention. And the same for coming in. One bark. I think they learned this because with one polite bark I let them in (or out) whereas if it was a barking frenzy, I either ignored them or yelled at them.
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Jan 24, 2011 20:26
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EVG posted:And mostly, how do you do this without training the dog that "Hey, when I do this, I get to go out! Imma do this ALL THE TIME?" instead of "Hey, when I have to potty, and I do this, I get to go out." I've heard one way to do this is when you train them to show some signal...a bark at the door, ring a bell, whatever, you also only take them out for like 5 minutes or just long enough to go relieve themselves. If they don't relieve themselves in 5 minutes, you take them back inside, so they don't get to hang out and have fun outside.
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Jan 24, 2011 20:48
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Ok, give me a few minutes to break up these and answer them. I can tell you I am likely to use a lot of those red-flag words in my anwswers, because, well, that's how I'm used to giving my shpiel after doing it thousands of times. Firstly, I did not mean to give the impression that I do not explain myself to people. I can and do freely give away all sorts of information and handouts that thouroughly explain the exercises I have had people go through in a given session. The non-disclosure agreement I referred to is more aimed at preventing us from giving away what BB sees as a proprietary method for free - but they have never been specific as to what our "big secret" is. Whether a client pays or not, I disseminate all the information I think that they can absorb, and then some. If I had to guess, I would say what makes our system a little less ordinary is the holistic approach we all learn to take. The majority of good dog training takes place through training the human being, in my opinion. By addressing inconsistencies in human responses and behavior you make humans FAR easier to understand for dogs. (Think of a family, mom corrects dog by screehing NO, dad corrects dog by bellowing FIDO, the kids don't correct the dog at all...) If I can get all of those people involved doing just about the same thing the same way every time the dog does a given behavior they want to stop, it will be much easier. (And I can tell you - that is often the biggest struggle. Try working with a 92 year old lady with a Yorkie terrier sometime.) I do growl as a correction at my dogs. My dogs have grown accustomed to me making a guttural BAH sound if they do something that I do not approve of. However, EVERY correction, no matter what form it takes, is followed by praise and love if you do see the signs of submission and focus. (sometimes even if you DONT see those signs, too) I have had plenty of clients that cannot make the deep sounds that we ask people to make - I usually steer them towards some kind of sound that is NOT the word NO or STOP or the dog's name - because these are words the dog will consistently hear in a lot of different non-corrective contexts. I try not to use sounds that can't be adjusted in volume - the idea being that I work with a lot of nusiance barking, and if a dog can't hear your correction he is definitely not going to take it. Another thing it's important for is recall and distance control. If my dog Buddy is running across a field towards something, I want to be able to stop him with nothing but my voice from up to about 200 feet away. One point I always make is to find an easy positive motivator for every dog. I have worked with dogs that were utterly unresponsive to food but were very responsive to praise. That in of itself is the reward. We generally arent supposed to treat-train for basic obedience, but I have done it in the past in some particularly problematic cases. (The idea is that we don't see dogs giving each other treats as rewards, and that treating is a human behavior, not a dog one.) And no, I have never in my life even touched a clicker. Home office would get kind of bent out of shape if they found out we were using clickers. Basically, if I want to associate a sound with treating, I don't see why I need some object to do it, I can just click my tongue or something. I know you said a clicker will make consistently the same sound every time, and at the same volume and all, but I've always been pretty conscious of the way my voice sounds to my dog. To summarize our system, we first address body language. Is the owner of the dog communicating with their body language what they are ATTEMPTING to communicate with their voice and/or words? If I appear excited or panicked, I will not be able to get a dog to calm down. Gotta practice what we preach, after all. Again, the idea is that the fairly passive, well adjusted adult (female) dog is quite calm with her puppies, or other puppies, but IF and WHEN she has to correct those puppies for something, her correction will be pretty unmistakable to them. Secondly, we address voice tone. I always think of what I lovingly call the "armpit pirhana" effect - the little agresssive dog at PetsMART. You see a cute little dog in the ladys arms, you approach, perhaps to pet it, maybe reach out your hand, and the dog lunges at your finger and attempts to remove it. The dog's response is aggressive. But so many small dog owners immediately will say to the dog in a sweet, lilty voice "Hey, Ralph, that's not nice, he's a nice man, he doesn't want to hurt you..." We see the use of the high-pitched voice tone in that context as praising the current behavior of the dog, which is aggression. This is, in my opinion, why I deal with aggression far more often in little dogs than big ones - if that little dog Ralph was in fact a Rottweiler, it wouldn't be in her purse, and if it snapped at some stranger, the owners response would likely not be so foo-foo and wimpy. Thirdly, we teach people to imitate the snap that a dog will do at another as a correction, if necessary. For a really wimpy or perhaps traumatized dog, you may have EXTREMELY mild corrections, even in some cases like a grumble followed with a snap of the fingers. If that's all it takes, great. For many dogs, mid-range corrections are all that we need. That's those little bags we hand out to people - the training aids. The chains inside as (supposed) to sound to a dog's ears like teeth gnashing together, or at least that's what the Aussies told us. I can't corrorborate that, having human ears, but I can tell you about 75% of the time, one or two tosses of that thing on the ground is enough to break a dog's focus on a given misbehavior. We also use small spray bottles full of water with certain breeds. (I've found water corrections to be very effective on GSD's, but the training aids rarely work that well.) In rare cases, we have higher level corrections. These are the dogs that are not for the layperson. A dog that can and will challenge its owners corrections or attempts at discipline. A very assertive dog, in general. Sometimes we use water bombs for these guys - a ziploc bag full of warm water. Now, having said all that, it probably sounds like our system is all discipline. It is not. A positive reaction trumps a negative reaction every time. But we do deal with dogs that will utterly ignore corrections and/or treats, so you gotta find a way to great through to the dog and interrupt the behvaior pattern. And I agree with you about the pariah dog stuff - most "wild" dogs or such seem more like coyotes, solitary or paired, not a real rigid hierarchy. But our system is based on convincing the dog that the client or owner is "above" the dog in terms of authority. Like a parent to a an unruly child, essentially. Is there an element of fear there? Sure, a small one. I was afraid of my dad when I was little and he was mad. But I didn't think he was going to kill me. If a client corrects a dog and it says, were to start shaking or urinating, you know, fear signs, we need to pull back NOW. I am not interested in making a dog live in mortal fear of its owner. Lastly, when I said the solitary nature of my franchise - that's more because I'm a solo operator and very busy. I have three revisits with existing clients today, and three new clients later in the week. In your average week I am meeting with clients for a total of about 25-40 hours, and thats just the skeleton. The real work is in the marketing, public speaking engagements, meeting with vets, doing group sessions, the occasional reporter (if I can swing it) and other things. It's a scheduling thing. In the territory that I cover, there are over 150 vet clinics. I try to at least drop in on every clinic every three months - even the ones that have in-house trainers or refer to a different company. I would say about 90 of those 150 vet clinics in my territory refer to me exclusively. Another 30 or so give out my info with a bunch of other trainers info and let the client do some shopping. The other 30 simply don't refer to me at all, or have their own trainer on staff or some such. Most of my client referrals come from either a vet clinic or a word of mouth reccomendation from a past client. And no, my dog is just good. I have one dog, my parents have three, so my dog lives with them. They live about five miles from here. I spend a lot of time over there, back and forth, and I move Buddy around a lot. He comes with me on some appointments. Buddy is canine good citizen certified, but that's all I every really bothered with. He started out when I first got him wanting to kill every other dog he saw. Now, I take him with me to a clients house (when I feel they are ready for this stage of the training) and do dog exposure stuff with Buddy essentially as the distraction. A dog I can trust and predict and basically control. I remember years ago this guy's Basenji was fish-flopping and twisting on the leash, foaming at the mouth, screaming to get at Buddy and kill him, and Buddy just laid down calmly and paid attention to me. I was very proud of him that day. And yes, there was a fence between them, I'm not out to get any dogs hurt whatsoever. EDIT: And to be clear, many of the dogs I work with are on the last straw for the owners. We get a lot of the dogs that other training companies categorically reject around here due to temperament, breed, or history. I will work with dogs that have bitten people before, but you have to have realistic expectations and tread damned carefully. I frequently work with rehabilitating dogs that have been neglected or traumatized, and you always have to be willing to adjust your methods accordingly. Here in the south a breeder is more likely to be an evil puppy mill person than a legit breeder. We get a lot of dogs that many would consider crazy. I worked with a GSD two weeks ago that really got to me - someone had cut his throat from ear to ear and dumped him on the steps of their local vet clinic. Another family adopted him after surgery, and he had his neck reconstructed like the guy in that Highlander movie. All these big sutures. Obviously, you don't put a collar of ANY kind on a dog like that. I used a harness and a bottle of water to teach him to walk to heel. Aside from the huge scar on his neck, he was just your average enthusiastic goober young dog - pulling, barking, lack of sit/stay/drop/ lack of recall, jumping, a lot of the "standard" puppy issues. robayon fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 22:40
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Thanks for all the answers! What in your mind are the drawbacks to positive reinforcement training? EDIT: robayon posted:Basically, if I want to associate a sound with treating, I don't see why I need some object to do it, I can just click my tongue or something. I know you said a clicker will make consistently the same sound every time, and at the same volume and all, but I've always been pretty conscious of the way my voice sounds to my dog. I do a lot of trick training with my dog, and I've gotta say that creating a new behaviour is infinitely easier with a clicker than with vocal cues. I too like to think that I'm pretty conscious my voice, my tone, my timing, etc, but the voice just can't cut it sometimes. I was doing some shaping with my dog a while ago and I couldn't find any clickers (I stash them all over the place). So I just sat down with my cup of kibble and used my (already charged) marker word. I had to stop after a few minutes and go searching for a clicker since I was getting frustrated with being unable to create what I wanted. Until you use one and get comfortable doing so you really don't know what you're missing. Of course a marker word is sufficient for basic obedience and behaviours that don't really need any kind of precision, but the click really does make a difference. a life less fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 23:15
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As a standalone thing, there's nothing inherently wrong with giving a dog food, especially if it motivates them. I just don't see animals, except perhaps simians, doing things like this "in the wild". I have simply met many dogs that will not take food as a reward because food doesn't really seem to interest them that much, and we always try a variety of foods if we're doing it. I use treats for things like association - scattering treats around the vacuum cleaner at first while it is off but sitting in the middle of the room. Then perhaps treats in the same room while the cleaner is on but not in the immediate area. Then perhaps when it is on around the dog. It's not that I care if a dog AVOIDS a vacuum cleaner, but I more concentrate on stuff like this for say, a dog that ATTACKS the vaccuum cleaner. I also use 'em for things like brushes, nail clippers, dremels, leashes, muzzles, collars, specific-person fear (a client says: my dog is a racist!), acclimation, things like that. Also, weird tricks and stuff, but I don't bother teaching stuff like tricks to my clients - that's just for me. I don't want my clients to need a pocket full of treats to control their dog, say, at the park. If they want to use them, I usually advise them to use em just fine, but gradually give them less and less consitently for repetitions of behavior, but re-introduce them again each time you try to cover a new 'issue'.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:29
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Well, in that particular dog you are speaking of, is the clicker what you have done since very early on? Do you think you would get a different result if you started using just the voice but starting from square one with a brand new dog? I know, if you recorded my voice on a computer doing a bunch of clicks with my tongue, they certainly would not be identical. But dogs don't have the hearing analysis level that a computer would. Buddy seems to respond to a variety of command words within a range of vocal tones. Some dogs are apparently more sensitive about it than others, and I imagine some dogs simply have better hearing than others. Oh, and by the way, for deaf dogs: we just use a "positive" item (a favorite toy) and a "negative" item (a different toy that the dog is not as fond of). Perhaps we approach it as more touch-oriented. Same for blind dogs. Blind AND deaf dogs everything seems to have to be sensation based.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:34
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The clicker is like voodoo magic, don't knock it till you've tried it.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:35
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Also, I have found treats to be handy for toilet training. Not as a reward, but an association. If the dog consitently picks certain spots inside the house to eliminate, I like to scatter food in those areas when say, the dog is outside and can't see me doing this. Bring the dog back inside, let them "find" the food, and their instinct (usually) seems to tell them if they find food in that area, don't toilet in that area. They may just pick a different area, granted, but there are other things I do in conjunction with this. For example, I use lavender oil scent association for toilet training as well. What I often advise people to do is go to GNC, get a small vial of pure lavender oil (or even certain other scents if they hate lavender.) Take a few drops of the oil, put it in a jug of water, and mix it up real good with some shakes. Put some in a small spray bottle, and spray down the interior of the crate every day. Don't let the dog see you doing this. Spray some on a washrag and wipe the dog down with the same mix of water and lavender (unless it has skin allergies or some such). The idea is that in the crate the dog always smells that unique scent. The first thing that they often tie to memory, in my experience, is scent, so you put them in an area that is properly sized so they don't want to eliminate. (Most dogs, except Schipperkes, will at least TRY to avoid pooping and peeing all over themselves. This can be difficult with pet store dogs because of the way they are housed, and puppy mill dogs.) After two weeks of consistently refreshing the scent, the dog has usually tied the scent of the lavender to the process of "holding it". Then you make another batch of the scent, and spray it all over the house, concentrating on favorite areas the dog likes to toilet like dining rooms, less-often-used rooms and such. You might have to use one of those enzyme destroyers on certain areas before you do that, but I know some of those work and some of 'em don't. It's a great passive way to toilet train. That is done in conjunction with all the standard stuff - taking the dog out on leash, a toileting trigger word, wild praise when going outside, NOT correcting toileting unless you SEE it happening, never after the fact, and the aforementioned scatterfeeding. Even then, I've had to get creative before. We put sod, like literally a bunch of squares of grass in this dog's crate once because it was so insistent on toileting on hardwood. We gradually moved the crate closer to the door, then took the sod out, put puppy pads under it, moved it around near the doorways, until we moved it onto the porch, then the steps, then the lawn... it was a long term toileting campaign, hehe.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:42
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wraithgar posted:The clicker is like voodoo magic, don't knock it till you've tried it.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:43
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robayon posted:Well, in that particular dog you are speaking of, is the clicker what you have done since very early on? Do you think you would get a different result if you started using just the voice but starting from square one with a brand new dog? I have been using the clicker on my dog from very early on, yes. Were I to get a brand new dog and use solely voice markers I'm sure I could get the same results eventually, but perhaps at a slower rate. The uniqueness of the sound is part of the power of the tool. Our voices are used for so many different things while training. Dogs, not being a vocal species (to the same extent we are), seem like they have an easier time distinguishing the click from all the other feedback we offer them. The click only ever means one thing. robayon posted:If BB home office hears of us using clickers, we have a chance of getting fined in addition to the royalties we pay to them. Same with a prong collar or check chain. If they find out we hit a dog, or use violence to control one, we lose our franchise. That's very surprising to me. Quite honestly, I find it a bit distasteful. I understand that BB is known for doing things a certain way, but I'm dismayed they're so heavy handed about it. Though, in this case, it's easy enough to use a charged marker word the same way you would a clicker with clients, if the case required it. What about using a clicker on your own dog? I can't imagine they would be able to control that. All in all I'm very pleased you've decided to talk about your business. It sounds like a lot of your approaches would be similar to mine when you discuss your positive reinforcement tactics. There so often is a stark divide between traditional trainers and clicker trainers that there's rarely opportunity for polite discourse. I always consider a trainer's dog to be their resume. What else would you like to do with your dog? Any behaviour areas that you would like to work on? Sports? I'm a bit hung up on dog activities since I always tell people to look at trainers' dogs before you look at trainers themselves -- they tend to be an indicator of a trainer's abilities and passion. I have this mental image of all BB trainers having insanely high drive Malinois or German Shepherds that they use in Comp OB or something like that. Those types of dogs might call for the heavy hand that BB advocates.
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Jan 24, 2011 23:55
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About clickers: I had never used one before, until I got this puppy. I asked here, and checked out the videos that people referred me to (thanks, a life less!), and started working with my puppy. Then a couple of weeks ago he started a puppy class where they teach basic things, and they don't use clickers. The trainer doesn't object, but says it's hard if you have six people and six clickers going. We use the word "yes." My dog seems to retain the things I've taught him at home with the clicker much better than the things taught in class without. This could be because his focus is a little different at the class, there are other dogs, other people, lots of smells. It could be confirmation bias. But I really like it. I have trained dogs without it, though, and they've been pretty good citizens, too. Nothing too fancy. Playing dead when I say "Bang!" and point my finger at them. This dog also might just be easier to train. It's really hard to tell. But I do like the clicker. I will say, my son and I were teaching him recall. I had the clicker, my son made a noise just like the clicker. The kid is really good at mimicking noises (he could do a dump truck backing up before he could talk), so it was pretty close, and seemed to work just as well, but I can't make the noise the way the kid can.
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Jan 25, 2011 00:05
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Believe me, I know what you mean. "Dismayed" is a polite way of putting it, surely. My relationship with our home office is not exactly rosy. They can be heavy handed and just flat out strange at times. They also seem to be kind of obtuse about getting things done a certain way, and then a month later we see on our internal net that they have revised a certain procedure and this is the new official way we do this or that exercise. I don't treat their information to us in the field as canon like some other BB's do. As for my dog, I'm confident if you saw my dog you would say I have a pretty good resume. Is he a perfect dog? No, certainly not. I'm not a perfect trainer. The point I make to people often when they balk at certain aspects of authority is that being a leader does NOT mean you have to be a dictator. I play with Buddy all the time, I give him plenty of time to be a dog, but when it's time to work it's time to work. He reacts positively every time to going to work with me, and is consistently well behaved around appallingly poor behaved dogs. EDIT: Buddy is a chow/golden mix, about 7 years, male, neutered, pretty middle-of-the-road temperament. Not the smartest, not the dumbest. As for what you said - the click only ever means one thing - that is precisely what I say to clients about the BAH sound we make. It is unmistakeable to a dog, after some time, that this particular sound means you need to pay more attention to your boss. Granted, our BAH is on the opposite end of the spectrum - it is indeed positive punishment. The click is the precursor to the positive reinforcement. If I were to use a clicker on my own dog, they certainly don't have like cameras in my house for our own private exercises. However, we do get "mystery shopped" from time to time, and our home office seems to have a strange ability to glean information about us in the field and I've never been sure how. I know they don't do any corporate follow up with our individual clients, or at least I've never once had a client that received information from any BB other than myself. Another thing I thought of: Part of what makes us unique is the guarantee we offer with our services. Obviously, guaranteeing an animal's behavior is an incredibly great way to shoot yourself in the foot. The guarantee says we will help the client as long as it takes to solve the problem, as long as the client is willing to do the work and listen. 99% of my clients, it's 3-5 total visits and I never see 'em again. But periodically I will get a visit with a client I haven't seen in years, or a new issue has arisen - we're not supposed to charge 'em a dime for any kind of follow up support. (This is assuming they purchase the life-of-the-dog guarantee - the "Gold" package - $395. I offer other packages that guarantee my help within the space of 1 year - the "Silver" package - $250 - and I do a one-time session fee a few times a year - the "Bronze" package- $100. Usually for a little old lady or something. These prices vary from franchise to franchise, I lowered my prices in the Fall because the economy sucks and it was getting slow and I've kind of got a rural/low income territory. There is a murmur in our intranet that we will soon be rolling out some sort of "Platinum" package to sell, where WE train the dog FOR the client, but I'm quite skeptical at this point about its effectiveness and realism - they want us to charge upwards of $1000 for the Platinum. Maybe they'll pay that out in Los Angeles or something, but not out here in JAWJUH.) Obviously, it's not economical for me to run a business if I have to see every client 50 times, that many visits at that price I wouldn't even break even on gas costs alone. My average client is 3-5 visits over the course of about 5 weeks. robayon fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 00:59
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Rhymes With Clue posted:The trainer doesn't object, but says it's hard if you have six people and six clickers going. We use the word "yes." Our trainer says that in her experience, dogs usually figure out pretty quickly which clicker to listen to, so it doesn't actually get confusing in class. We haven't had that many people in class but 3 or so people doesn't seem to confuse them
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Jan 25, 2011 01:12
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robayon it sounds like your techniques are very much in line with a lot of what we talk about here, but there are a couple things that you approach from different directions. There are a couple points where I could disagree with your descriptions of things, but I'll just point out one and tell you my experience and then perhaps you can tell me more about your experiences. What really stuck out to me was when you talked about the small dog in the woman's purse who barks/growls/bites and then is sweet talked by its owner. Before Psyche, I too would have seen this as a wimpy, non-response. When we first got Psyche and started dealing with her reactivity issues, I read a lot about fearful behavior in dogs and there was an article (possibly posted on here) that talked about a study done on rats that tested whether being reassured encouraged rats to continue or cease fearful behavior. They found that being reassured actually decreased fearful behavior. This makes a lot of sense to me. So if you were to walk up to my dog and make direct eye contact, she would bark, growl, and lunge at you. From her point of view, she is very scared of you and is trying to get you to leave. Now I could correct her, yell at her, pull on her leash...all of those things will make her more scared. She will associate those bad things with you. On the other hand, if I give her food, pet/hold her, and yes, talk in a happy, high voice, she begins to feel better because those are things she loves and again, she will associate them with you. I've been comforting my dog in situations since we started working with her (as part of counter-conditioning and desensitization) and I think it's really helped. I probably look like an idiot, telling my growling dog that everything is okay, but my goal is to eventually change her attitude. I don't want to correct her out of acting scared, I want her to honest-to-god not be scared. And I think that comforting helps change attitudes rather than reinforcing reactivity. Why would a dog who feels better about something growl more at it*? The woman with the purse like in your example was probably just not good at training/socialization. But the comforting itself is not bad, I think, and can be a good tool for fearful dogs. Sorry that was long and if I misread you! I think it's a interesting topic and not resolved in the training community. I'd also like to hear more about your dog and his dog reactivity and how you dealt with it. As you can tell I have similar problems and am always looking for new things to learn. *Of course, eventually you get to a fine line where your dog may be barking for the helluva it and not really scared anymore. When her body language is no longer scared, I change to rewarding only good behavior.
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Jan 25, 2011 01:20
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robayon posted:There is a murmur in our intranet that we will soon be rolling out some sort of "Platinum" package to sell, where WE train the dog FOR the client, but I'm quite skeptical at this point about its effectiveness and realism - they want us to charge upwards of $1000 for the Platinum. Maybe they'll pay that out in Los Angeles or something, but not out here in JAWJUH.) I'm always surprised when facilities offer options like this. I can't imagine they'd ever be successful, but no one ever went broke underestimating the laziness of the public. Training classes exist not to train a dog, but to train a handler how to train a dog. Knowing how to interact with your animal is infinitely more useful and valuable than someone taking your dog away for a month, running a few drills with it, then dropping it back in its original environment where its original behaviours are almost guaranteed to reemerge. I'm sure you're aware of how ridiculous an idea this is already. I know my dog training vocabulary is beyond that of most people's, but I can't imagine how much more limited my dog and I would be if she'd been taken away to be trained then dropped back on my lap. We'd never get past the basics of obedience and simple manners.
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Jan 25, 2011 04:36
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a life less posted:Knowing how to interact with your animal is infinitely more useful and valuable than someone taking your dog away for a month, running a few drills with it, then dropping it back in its original environment where its original behaviours are almost guaranteed to reemerge. I'm sure you're aware of how ridiculous an idea this is already.
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Jan 25, 2011 04:43
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Kiri koli posted:robayon it sounds like your techniques are very much in line with a lot of what we talk about here, but there are a couple things that you approach from different directions. As for how I addressed Buddy's dog aggression, he never was particularly sensitive to sound-based corrections, all I ever really needed was a squirt bottle of water. I squirted some on his behind in conjunction with a vocal correction, that got his attention, then I praised him. Repeat, repeat, repeat, ad nauseum. Gradually moving closer and closer to the focus of his aggression - and firstly using relatively mild mannered dogs and then progressing towards keeping Buddy calm even when the other dog was not. It took probably about twelve weeks of daily repetition, say, 20 minutes per day, broken up into 5 minutes here and there. That brings me to a question I forgot to answer earlier: I have NEVER liked the way BB Home Office advertises our system - that we can fix any dog, any problem, in under three hours. That's BS. Sure, in nearly every lesson I have ever conducted, we saw RESULTS on the first session, changes in the dog's behavior, but I would never consider the problem "permanently solved" after a single session. What really vexes me? Many other BB's don't even do follow-up visits. They do the one single session, for like, $795, and never come back. I don't know how you convince a person they are getting their money's worth. Again, maybe it's just the area that I operate in - many of the Bark Busters will obviously prefer to work in high-income areas. That being said, I've had my share of really wealthy clients like in Country Club of the South (where many of the ATL Braves/Falcons/Hawks et cetera live) here in ATL - and it's been my experience that most of them just want to throw money at the problem until it goes away. My system isn't a great fit for people who aren't willing to work with their dogs themselves. I went to this guy's house that was like, a 30 bedroom mansion once, down in Conyers. As I arrive, he's pulling out of the driveway in his Aston Martin, and he tells me to go on inside and conduct my lesson with his chief butler. I didn't know until that point that butlers actually existed, I always thought that was only in comic books. This particular guy also had a dungeon in his basement "just for fun" and you could swim under this waterfall in his indoor pool and there was a 24-hour STAFFED bar inside of this big fake rock. There were even little stools built right into the water. Sheesh.
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Jan 25, 2011 04:51
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robayon posted:More Stuff Ah, gotcha. Then we're on the same page. I have never used a squirt bottle with Psyche, though when she is sub-threshold, I do use techniques to get her attention like waiving a treat in her face or touching her ear. Unfortunately, I don't have dogs available to me to do regular sessions. I'm working on it, but my friends are busy people and it's hard to ask for them to take time to do training with us. Have you ever considered breaking off to do your own thing? What about having a BB franchise keeps you with them instead of being an independent trainer?
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Jan 25, 2011 05:01
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If I end my contract with Bark Busters, according to what I signed, I'm not allowed to train dogs "professionaly" for a period of two years. I don't know if that's something they could like, sue me over though. The title for your average BB trainer is Dog Behavioral Therapist and Trainer - when we called ourselves Behavioralists UGA got really, really pissed at us. We're certified through BB alone. I am not CPDT certified or any of that. That being said, if and when I do end my franchise, I'll wait the two years, and then start my own business. Just a small one as a supplementary income. I'm actually in school for something entirely different - drafting, and I'm hoping that will be my full time job in a few years. If I can sell my business, and in this economy, that is a faint hope. I love training dogs in of itself, but I am not fond of all the marketing and schmoozing I need to do to keep the business viable. That and my phone rings all the loving time. The day that I cancel this cellphone number will be the happiest day of my life unless I've already had children or something by then. Seriously, the ringer on my phone? It is the audio sound of unhappiness. I cannot STAND talking on the phone, but I do it for at least three hours per day.
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Jan 25, 2011 05:07
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Thanks for all your answers robayon! I missed most of the discussion due to being several time zones away, but it was really interesting to read your responses. I think the thing that strikes me as the strangest in your way of training is the no treats approach. Clickers are useful but by no means compulsory, even for "clicker training". Food, on the other hand, is a universal primary reinforcer - EVERY dog is (eventually) interested in food - that choosing not to use it doesn't make much sense to me, though I understand you are required by BB to do things this way. I have a training question for the thread. Pi is a 4-year-old neutered male Lapponian herder, who is going blind in one eye. His eyesight has failed quite quickly, because all was well (or he had the cataracts but it hadn't advanced and he could see) when we went for our scheduled checkup last summer. Toward the end of last year he started being really really slow in agility, practically crawling on the contact obstacles. He's always been leash reactive to some extent, but it used to be manageable - now it's not. By Christmas I noticed his left eye was "dim" and the vet confirmed he doesn't see very well with that eye anymore. Now, we've stopped doing competition agility because what's the point - I tried for months to train him to be faster on the contact obstacles, but it didn't work, likely because he's unsure about not seeing clearly. The bigger issue is that he's gotten not just reactive but outright aggressive toward other dogs. My younger dog is an unneutered 1,5 year old male, who will attack another dog if he sees Pi doing it. Together my dogs weigh almost as much as I do and I'm starting to have a hard time controlling them (regular leashes and martingales). Yesterday the worst happened and they attacked a passerby's dog running straight toward rush hour traffic. I'd walked about 10m off the road to give the dogs space and feed them for being nice, but when Pi suddenly lunged I fell and the leashes slipped. Luckily no one was hurt and the dogs didn't run in front of the cars (they did stop traffic though), but it was a horrible situation. Obviously this can't go on but I'm not sure what I should do. Pi is a strong, largeish dog and I don't trust him with a head collar. My trainer friend suggested check chains for both of the dogs yesterday, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to introduce fear of pain into situations Pi is already worried about. I will of course work on DS&CC, but a lot of the stuff I used to do with him is out - I thought of doing Look At That work with him but I'm not sure if that'll work now. I do think I need a signal to tell him that a dog is coming so he can prepare. If anyone can tell me brand names for front clip harnesses I could google around for an internet store. For some reason those aren't available locally here, I've asked around lots. Sorry for the E/N wall of text, but I'm really upset about what happened yesterday (and Pi went for a dog on Sunday and Friday as well  )
Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 10:24
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Rixatrix posted:Stuff about Pi I'm sorry to hear about Pi and his eyesight. It sounds like it's been pretty traumatic for him, though dogs are pretty adaptable, so I can hope with time that he'll be okay with it. I'm not sure exactly why you don't trust a headcollar. Are you afraid that he will break it or that he will hurt himself pulling on it? Have you seen the canny collar? It's a headcollar that hooks in the back and seems much stronger than the halti or gentle leader. It didn't stay on my dog's nose, but I think it would be better for larger dogs. The other thing I would suggest is what my trainer has all her reactive dogs learn, which is backaways. You train your dog that when you take a step backward (or a few steps at first), the dog is supposed to come back to you and sit right in front of you. Then the dog is focused on you and, if necessary, you can do an emergency hold on his collar. Unfortunately, the other thing you have to do is try to control your surroundings as much as possible. I only walk Psyche in places were I can see around me and spot trouble coming before her. Then I either move her away or have her sit and behave until it has passed. Obviously, I can't keep her away from everything, but I try not to be surprised. If you can, I would walk the dogs separately for a while so you can concentrate on doing backaways or some other sort of emergency response to situations with the one dog. I definitely wouldn't introduce pain or fear into this situation. Your dog is going through a traumatic adjustment and those things can only prolong it. The best chance, I think, of bringing his old behavior back is to change his attitude with cc and ds. We use a SENSE-sible or SENSE-ation front clip harness. Can't remember which, but one looks more sturdy than the other.
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Jan 25, 2011 14:06
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Kiri koli posted:Helpful answer. I'll look into the canny collar, thanks for the tip. I'm going to get both dogs front clip harnesses regardless, but trying both can't hurt. Backaways are an excellent idea and I'll start working on that. Controlling surroundings is going to be difficult, as we live in the city. Yesterday's episode happened on our way to the parking lot. Very often just giving as much space as possible for the passing dog is the best I can do unfortunately. Separate walks are also going to be a bit of an issue as both dogs need at least about two hours of exercise daily, but I'll do my best.
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Jan 25, 2011 14:34
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Rixatrix posted:Thanks so much for your answer and your concern. The reason I haven't been too keen on the Halti head collar we have is that I'm worried Pi'll hurt his neck. He's started to lunge suddenly and with little warning at passing dogs. Before he displayed a very clear sequence of behavior when a dog was approaching and I was able to know exactly what to do and when. Now I have a hard time predicting what will happen, how far out of the way I should get with him and whether or not he's ok with eating treats until the other dog has passed. I'm not sure if he just doesn't notice the other dog until they're quite near, or if he's just changed tactics. We were also worried about Psyche hurting herself by lunging with a head collar on. But we discovered that when she has it on, it really dampens her reactions, so much so that the first dozen or so times she wore it, she was completely different, depressed, subdued, didn't want to move or do anything, etc. We persisted and once we started taking her on walks and distracting her with interesting things, she got over it and now acts normal with it on...except that she doesn't freak out quite as much with it on. Since we started using it, she only lunged hard enough to make me worry once and she really responds better if I have to turn her away from something. That being said, we use a front clip halter for most of her walks and the head collar is mostly for class or when we are letting her meet someone. I think I'm going to use it more on walks in the spring because now the snow is limiting our movements, but I definitely don't want to use it as a crutch all the time. Also, there's no guarantee that Pi will have the same reaction as Psyche to things resting on her nose (muzzles do the same thing). But really, I would just try everything until you see what works. We went through a gentle leader and canny collar before we figured out that the halti worked the best for Psyche because of her nose shape. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Pi is freaking more because things are sneaking up on him. Psyche clearly reacts the worst when she is surprised and didn't see something coming.
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Jan 25, 2011 14:57
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