My dog is smarter than your honor student: the Dog Training Thread

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Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Apidae posted:

So anyway, my question is: Are there dog training certifications or courses I could take? Are some better respected or more of an education than others? I'm in Southern Ontario, a life less if you have any reccomendations that would be wonderful. Is this a really dumb dream to have even though I'm not currently a dog owner (I'd love to but it's not possible now )?

A friend of mine recently graduated from the Karen Pryor Academy. It was expensive, but she thought it was worth it. She now runs her own training business as a side job (she's sticking to her day job until she's built a steady clientele).

# ¿ Mar 12, 2011 17:09

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 00:15

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

^ Not a life less, but put a piece of sticky tape on her nose. She'll try to paw it off, guaranteed - though this isn't really shaping anymore

# ¿ Mar 23, 2011 18:46

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Cassiope posted:

So yeah, count me in as interested if there are other ways to teach that too.

I still think sticking something on the dog's nose is a good way to induce that behavior for capturing. If sticky tape is too offensive, maybe a drop of water or even just a light touch on the nose? I'm suggesting because this strategy worked like a charm for Pi (except the first time I tried and he made the piece of sticky tape fall, he kept persistently targeting the tape on the floor

)

Free shaping should work as well, but it takes more skill to train that way.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2011 20:40

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

I advanced really quickly with this behavior and didn't use the tape for very long. I think I faded it after a couple of repetitions during our first session and had it on Pi's nose for one or two clicks to begin a session after that, but only for a couple of 10-treat sessions. He started offering the paw movement reliably after that and I could just shape the trick from there. Just limiting the time you use the tape as a prop and using really awesome rewards would probably make it less aversive for the dog?

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 08:14

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

http://silvia.trkman.net/ then choose videos from the left and go to Tricks.

Edit. Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/yolle555

# ¿ Apr 16, 2011 16:47

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Riiseli gave me a revelation about Rho yesterday. I went to her place to check out the puppies and to maybe do some obed in the hopes of getting some of her (excellent) advice. Additionally it's usually really useful to get someone else to observe your mechanics when training. It's a lot better than video even, since you get real-time feedback.

Well, we started out with Rho's motivation issues. Rho has an excellent tug - when he feels like it. He likes tennis balls - when he feels like it. He's a picky eater and nothing I've yet tried is super duper excellent A++ in his opinion. This includes a lot of unhealthy people food, so it's not like I haven't tried. We tried a bunch of different toys (real fur, squeaks, the works) and the usual motivational tricks to get Rho to play, including playing with the toy amongst ourselves and making a big deal about it, running away etc. Rho didn't give a poo poo and kept wandering off.

Then Riiseli tried the thing that's worked for well for her Healy: disapproval as +P and social acceptance and praise as +R. And what do you know, it worked! As much as I'd like to train using as little +P as possible, I think I'm going to go for it in this regard. Rho responded really nicely i.e. focused on me in response to +P (clearing my throat in a disapproving manner). His best reward all evening was me being happy and praising him and playing with him without any toys. No food was involved!

I've long known Rho to be really sensitive to feedback coming from me or even people in general. He loves being near me and I do play with him without any toys (chase is one of his faves). However up until now I've always seen this sensitivity as a weakness, since Rho sometimes responds to my intensity with fear, even when I'm super happy and pleased. I messed up his Crate Games a while ago with being too enthusiastic about his performance. Now I see I can use his sensitivity to my advantage. Yay!

Apologies for the wall of text, this was just a huge thing to me. Pi is greedy and will tug with anything, anywhere, so I've been confused about Rho for the longest time.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2011 07:32

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Kiri koli posted:

I also warn her off of behaviors she shouldn't start with disapproving sounds. My trainer doesn't seem to like that, but I think it's a great tool. It's strong enough a punishment to get some results, but it isn't really punishing (i.e. it doesn't make my primitive dog start sulking) and we can move right on to the right behavior and be happy again.

This. I had no idea I could use this to my advantage until now. I'll keep an eye out for any fallout, but right now I'm not too concerned. As long as I can keep the success rate high enough, I don't think an occasional disapproving grunt here or there will make any significant difference.

Kiri koli posted:

Psyche really loves chase and wrestling and I'd love to use those in lieu of a toy, but we have to be careful because she quickly starts using her mouth, which we want to mostly avoid. Anyway, yay for sensitive dogs!

I don't worry too much about Rho being mouthy. He's sometimes a little too rough even, but I suck it up because I want to build and keep up intensity and drive. He knows to take it easier when I yelp, and I tend to think a few cuts and bruises are a sign of a good training session anyway, even when rewarding Pi with a game of tug :3:

Fake edit: Hi Riiseli and thanks again!

# ¿ Apr 22, 2011 15:49

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Kiri koli posted:

It doesn't help that forcing my dog to move (she stops when she sees something upsetting) is a trigger. My dog is a special case of crazy and we're trying to move to a more isolated situation as soon as we can. I just thought I'd point out that some of us are trying really hard to help our dogs and if it's not a huge inconvenience, giving us a little room is much appreciated and REALLY helps out the training process.

This is true. Pi is also set off by forcing him to move or touching him when he freezes, I suppose it's pretty common. Additionally a lot of people are idiots and will approach from behind your back when you're picking up poop or are otherwise preoccupied. Reactive dogs are even more reactive when surprised, and an unprepared owner is going to have a harder time managing the situation.

Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Apr 23, 2011

# ¿ Apr 23, 2011 16:17

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

How much human interaction does the puppy get? Not just hanging around on the couch, I mean playing, training etc.

# ¿ May 6, 2011 19:25

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Hdip posted:

Couple hours a day and a walk down to the park to run around and chase squirrels. She does better when she get's two walks but we don't always have time.

Is she outside or otherwise alone for the rest of the time? Dogs in general don't thrive in social isolation, which is what being an "outside dog" means most of the time.

# ¿ May 7, 2011 19:38

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Emasculatrix posted:

I want to train my dog to hold things in his mouth, but I've run into some difficulty because he's not very "mouthy." If I hold out a toy, he won't take it from me. If I try to put something in his mouth he acts like I'm about to murder him. I tried going slowly and saying "hold" right as he picked up a treat to eat, but at least one of us isn't getting it. What should I do?

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html
The link has a long, very detailed set of instructions on shaping a retrieve. It starts with getting the dog to pick up and hold an object, so it might be useful to you.

# ¿ May 11, 2011 05:38

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

wtftastic posted:

Also, those baked, hollow beef bones you can get at Petsmart are amazing. Bailey will chew on that and dogs pretty much instantly know that bones are good times. Plus they last longer than pork bones.

One caveat, though. If your dog is a tough chewer, he will splinter the baked beef bones. Pi does for sure, which is why I don't buy them anymore.

The baked ones will break into really sharp, tasty splinters, which you really don't want to end up in your dog's stomach. Pi will splinter his baked beef bone really quickly, so I don't give them even if I'm around to supervise. I give raw bones instead (even though Pi has been able to break the tough cortical bone of those things as well, but they don't splinter as badly).

# ¿ May 12, 2011 07:32

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

If you've done your best trying to find a fantastic A-list food reward for him, and failed, well, he may just not be that interested in working for food.

a life less gave solid advice. I still want to encourage not giving up on finding an A++ super food reward, since I just did the unimaginable and found one for Rho. Rho's been a bit of a challenge to motivate because he's an extremely picky eater and a bit fickle with regards to toys. He's skinny as hell but he still won't work for most food even when he's skipped a meal or two.

Yesterday in a fit of desperation I boiled some chicken breasts for the dogs. I planned on working weave pole entrances with Rho, but instead I got this jumping, barking little fiend who wasn't able to focus on work because he was too focused on The Food. His weaving probably deteriorated a bit because I just kept working, but I don't care. I finally have something he really wants.

I really thought I'd tried everything. I have tried chicken before, several times. Just not boiled, human grade chicken breast. It turns out Rho is a dog of expensive tastes.

# ¿ May 23, 2011 06:23

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Fraction posted:

I also don't know how to advance It's Yer Choice past increasing the value of the food on the ground

Using food, you can work your way up to putting food on her or even throwing it at her. You can also work IYC into other training, which in my opinion is something you should do pretty quickly anyway. Use lower value distractions and ask her to perform a trick (something easy she knows, like sit or a hand touch) before rewarding her with a higher value treat. Working IYC into your training rather than keeping it up as a solitary exercise will prevent your dog persistently defaulting into "leave it". It's something you really don't want - you should aim to get her to default into "leave it while offering other behavior to earn reinforcement".

Question! I have started to dream of getting Pi to pass his Schutzhund Beigleithund (BH) test. I used to think I could never build him a solid enough obedience routine with him being quiet, but it seems that as he's gotten older, I've gotten to be a better trainer and our working relationship has gotten better, this is within our reach after all.

However the problem will be the bit where he's left alone tethered to a wall and has to calmly wait a couple of minutes while people and a calm helper dog pass by. I must stay out of sight. The people are not a problem, but the helper dog is. Pi will not shut up if a dog passes by.

How do I teach Pi not to bark at passing dogs when he has to wait without me in sight? Here's a brief description of what the BH test is about : http://www.kaltersberg.com/Obedience.htm

# ¿ May 29, 2011 08:24

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Rhymes With Clue posted:

If I really want him, I can get him with a toy, but I don't want to teach him to turn every recall request into puppy play.

Countercondition putting on the leash and grabbing his collar. Using the best treats you have, grab collar and feed dog simultaneously, release dog when he's finished swallowing. Repeat in various situations until he's happy to have you reach for his collar - if you work at it, you should be able to get him to offer you his collar. Work on clipping on the leash in a similar manner.

If you have trouble getting his collar on in the first place, teach him to put his own head through the collar using the bestest of treats as a reward. It's ok to lure the behavior at first.

6 months old is a typical time for a pup to start testing his boundaries and gaining independence. I'd probably leave a long line on him for now in order to be able to reinforce his recalls.

# ¿ May 29, 2011 08:56

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

As with everything in dog training, there is no One Right Answer.

True. I tried a head halter with Rho and for him it was a HUGE aversive, even though I took time to classically condition him to wearing it. Putting any pressure on the halter or leading him somewhere with its help was something he never got used to.

I managed to answer my own question with regards to the Schutzhund BH test. If I train a solid enough down-stay around those specific distractions, I should be able to leave Pi waiting no prob. I feel kind of stupid now :downs:

# ¿ May 30, 2011 21:47

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

I like the write up my internet pal did here: http://successjustclicks.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/going-batty/

Consider it just another tactic to have in your training arsenal. It blends nicely with a lot of other methods.

I'm not sure where I stand on CAT/BAT. I understand the principle and if performed with skill on the right dog I'm sure it works like a charm. However not all reactivity is the same, so picking out good candidates to try CAT/BAT on might not be simple. Reading dog body language well enough to time your actions and those of the helpers may also be challenging. Finding rock solid helper dogs with skilled handlers is yet another challenge.

That said, I'd try this on my boys if I had the opportunity to work with someone knowledgeable, even if this technique is -R based (I have trainer friends who have major issues with this).

# ¿ Jul 11, 2011 23:03

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less, I think we were thinking of slightly different things then. If you can even take a dog to a dog sport event, it's not a reactive dog to the extent where I have seen CAT/BAT suggested and used.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2011 17:00

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Satanos posted:

Thanks for the advice guys, I was a kid when we got the older dog so actually training one is all very new to me. I'll look into the books but are there any specific ones you could recommend for beginners? I think my family's attitude is fueled by a lot of misconceptions (like I didn't even know dominance theory was unreliable until this thread), so I'm feeling one that could help us all get to grips with the basics behind dog behavious would be best.

Your open attitude and willingness to learn warms my heart :3:

I really liked The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2011 11:06

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

ButWhatIf posted:

The shelter should NOT have been doing a temperament test when the dog was already stressed and fearful to begin with.

This, and they should really do the test in a more peaceful environment. I honestly don't think either of my dogs would pass that test with those standards of qualifying and in that environment.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2011 09:46

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Customer Service posted:

Okay I need some advice.

My brother got a dog, shelter neglected to mention her absolutely INSANE energy level. I can run this dog or take her to the dog park until she falls on the ground panting, yet when I try to train her she can't sit still long enough to focus. She's just all over the place, even though she's highly food motivated. (Any focus she has is entirely on the food and she's more likely to start pacing frantically at not getting the food than listening to any cues.)

It sounds like you need to teach the dog how to focus and relax, that way you can channel her energy to appropriate things and use it to your benefit. It's great that she's food motivated, it'll make things a lot easier! I can't give you detailed advice, but I'll point you toward some resources. Also, consider doing nose work with her (tracking etc.), as it requires that the dog concentrates and sniffing tends to tire them out a lot more than exercise.

Get a copy of Susan Garrett's book Shaping Success. It details the training she did with her out-of-control hyper BC Buzz. Another thing you might want to check out is Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation. It's a lot of work but quite a few people swear by it and it's highly recommended by Leslie McDevitt (author of Control Unleashed which you might also want to check out). When Pigs Fly! is yet another training book that might be helpful.

Protocol for Relaxation here: http://www.dogscouts.org/Protocol_for_relaxation.html

# ¿ Aug 10, 2011 10:28

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Fraction posted:

But outdoors, she just waits for her tennis ball. She doesn't seem nearly as interested in either tug (rabbit fur and sheepskin), though admittedly most of the increasing value of these tugs thing is from today.

Do you have any tennis balls with strings attached? Or stick a tennis ball into a sock and try that? Try a Hol-ee Roller Ball?

That said, I think you should be good if you just put away the tennis balls and keep doing what you did indoors with the tug toys. She'll get it. Take advantage of any and all moments outside when you know she'll be revved up to begin with (if you were working on this inside I'd tell you to try tugging when you first come in the front door, for example).

# ¿ Aug 11, 2011 07:23

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Riiseli posted:

This is pretty much why I've charged the clicker while playing 101 things to do with a box or something similar. Charging the clicker may take a slightly longer time, but my dogs have learned to offer behaviours and even to be rather enthusiastic about it and have also learned what the clicker means.

How come I never thought of doing this :aaa:

Nice.

I think I have to put some thought into teaching Pi his formal retrieve. I've worked at Shirley's retrieve since god knows when and I can't get past the step where Pi grabs the dumbell and throws it into the air. I just cannot get him to understand he needs to hold it for a while to get the click. If I try to wait him out, he'll just restlessly start pacing and throwing behaviors at me in hopes of earning the click. When this happens, he stops learning. It's frustrating for both of us, so I'm probably going to try something different.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2011 20:09

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

I don't think she's put up Day Four or beyond yet. She's using a client's dog, so I guess she's restricted by her teaching schedule.

Please post the rest when you get them. I'll give this a go with Pi.

Is there any reason why they're not using the dumbell to begin with? The finished formal retrieve requires that the dog grabs and holds the dumbell in a specific way, so to me it would make sense to build that into the behavior from the start so the hold is as strong as the rest of the behavior. I personally wouldn't take the time to shape a play retrieve (=bring any thrown object and place it into my hand). You kind of tend to get that without any extra effort when playing with your dog.

# ¿ Aug 18, 2011 07:42

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

I shaped my formal retrieve using Shirley's Retrieve after I'd already done something similar to Fenzi a year prior.

Any tips on how to progress with Pi using Shirley's Retrieve? We're seriously stuck at the point where I'm catching the dumbell that he lifts/throws and I cannot for the life of me get Pi to offer any sort of hold.

To tell you the truth right now I'm not having much fun with any of my training. I had Rho temperament tested some weeks ago and it turns out some quirks he has are likely to be more serious/difficult to deal with than I previously thought. It turns out Rho is sound sensitive and very soft, as well as independent. He doesn't seek help from me in difficult situations at all, which was heartbraking. Our first agility trial is on Saturday but right now I'm inclined to think he isn't up for it yet. His agility skills are good enough, but he's probably too uncomfortable in the trial environment to be able to perform. I don't think the dogs mind my lagging motivation with training though, as I just settle for doing simpler things without much of a goal in mind.

# ¿ Aug 18, 2011 13:42

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

So he'll clasp the dumbbell and lift it a bit, but won't hold onto it for more than a split second?

You can try throwing in a "stay" cue at an opportune time.

Thanks, I'll give this a go. Pi has lots and lots of value for the dumbbell (or any similarly shaped item), it's just that the value equals "grab and throw high into air and food will come". He won't hold onto it at all, just pick it up and throw it. He has a decent play retrieve with tug toys. We tug, I'll throw the toy and he'll deliver it to my hand if I ask him to.

a life less posted:

What material is your dumbbell?

Metal, plastic, wood, several different sizes. I even have one made of doggie tennis ball material (Kong brand if memory serves) just to check if it's a problem with the dumbbell. It isn't, he'll just as eagerly pick up the metal one and throw it as he'll do for the tennis ball toy dumbbell. And no dental issues I'm aware of, he likes his raw meaty bones and tugging just as much as before, his teeth are clean and none are broken (at the moment thank god, dental care is expensive for dogs too and Pi's had three broken teeth).

a life less posted:

For keeping YOUR motivation up, I find that's what I need classes for. Otherwise I just tend to wander around aimlessly with my dog, getting frustrated when she decides to be a brat. I find a need those payoffs to make me feel like having a crazy energetic dog is worth it.

This is so true. I don't think I'd ever do anything remotely ambitious with the dogs if I had to train alone. I do most of my training with friends (Obed) or in classes provided by clubs I belong to (SAR, Schutzhund, Agility. We just got accepted into an Agility club yesterday so yay for cheaper classes from now on). On top of that I occasionally go to seminars and such. Even though I'm not that competitive a person, trials are the thing that makes me work at training. Right now with Pi out of the picture because of his eye drops and me being (unfairly) frustrated with Rho, trials seem to be a distant dream.

That said, yesterday in Agility class Rho did so well that I've decided to go to the trial tomorrow and give it a go. Yesterday's class was outside with lots of dogs waiting in the ring for their turn and Rho was still able to perform very well. He even did independent weaves at warp speed, which was amazing. If he can do half as well at the trial in spite of the distractions we should be golden.

# ¿ Aug 19, 2011 13:45

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

wtftastic posted:

Any advice working with a dog who isn't food motivated at all? My mother's Tibetan terrier is so uninterested in food that the trainer that my mother worked with told her she was not going to be able to clicker train her. I've tried everything from praising and petting her like crazy to different treats.

Feed her ONLY as reinforcement for working for a couple of weeks. Don't let the dog go hungry for days on end, but a day or two won't hurt her if she's otherwise healthy and in good condition. Make her tasks so simple and the environment so peaceful that she'll get her share for the day, but she HAS to work for it. If she won't take the food to begin with, wait her out. All dogs have to eat to live, so food has inherent value for any living dog that's not terribly ill. Is the dog overweight at all? If so, increase exercise and get her to lose weight. If free feeding, stop right now. If she doesn't care for her kibble, feel free to switch to another brand or even raw if she prefers.

Also, get a copy of Jane Killion's When Pigs Fly!: Training Success With Impossible Dogs. It's excellent and it sounds like it's exactly what your mother needs.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2011 07:20

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

So Rho and I failed miserably last Saturday at Rho�s first agility trial due to him being too stressed out to perform. It turns out Rho is nervous around large groups of people and becomes sound sensitive when around them. This doesn�t go well together with an agility trial at all and it has also been quite a big surprise for me. We live in the city and Rho�s been around crowds all his life and he�s used to all kinds of sounds. He�s not afraid of the thunder, ambulances etc. and of my two dogs, he�s the first one to go investigate if something falls and crashes, for example. However he apparently gets really upset about groups of people cheering and applauding, so this is something I really can�t ignore, surprising or not.

Now obviously I�m not going to run him in trials before I�ve fixed this. Here�s my plan of action, any comments are appreciated since I really want (need!) to make this work.

1)Desensitization to groups of people, obviously. Gradually at first and in a controlled environ-ment (classes, with friends etc), then using busy bus stops other naturally crowded spots. I�ll try and get strangers to feed Rho as much as I can.
2)Desensitization to agility-related sounds. Hanging out around trials and events and probably also recording sounds to play at home.
3)After DS and CC, shaping for demand for loud noises. I�ll try to eventually get Rho to knock down pots and kettles for a reward.
4)Shaping a strong 1-2-3-go! game which will hopefully function as a transition from the some-what chaotic waiting for our turn at ringside to focusing on our run in the ring.

Good job, notsoape!

# ¿ Aug 24, 2011 14:48

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

I might forgo some of your other steps and focus a lot on bringing Rho to agility matches to observe. (Can you bring non-competing dogs onto the grounds at your events?) Play tug, set up a jump or play around on the practice jump if you can't bring your own.

Last Saturday Rho'd refuse food, not engage in play and when I sent him through a tunnel at the practice obstacles he made a beeline for his crate right after he was done with the tunnel. I'd like it if I could just hang around at events, but I'm fairly sure we're not that well off at the moment. I'm gonna go to any and all events I can where I can take all the distance we need, but at indoor trials that may not be possible.

quote:

Reserve pig ears and RMBs etc for crate snacks, and only bring him out for 2-3 minutes max at a time to work with you.

Goes without saying

Pig ears and the like will be refused though, since they take too much effort to eat and Rho won't focus that long. Mushy stuff works better for him, so he gets unhealthy people food when we're working at this.

quote:

I can line her up, cue her to focus front... just like magic she quiets down and starts shaking with excitement. It's become a really good tunnel-vision tool for sporting events for us.

I've never put in any major effort into this, since I thought obstacles made Rho focus front. Great idea, I'll give it a go.

# ¿ Aug 25, 2011 05:52

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Fraction posted:

Lately, I've upped my pup's exercise from one hour of pure outdoors running, basically (constant back and throw fetch), to minimum two, average three hours. ... More exercise can only ever be good.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one a bit. It's absolutely true most people under-exercise their dogs, but you definitely *can* overdo it. Especially with a needy, hyper dog, I would never ever play fetch daily. Sure it's exercise and tires them out, but it also feeds their neediness and increases their stress levels. Of course bad things don't always happen, but active, hyper dogs are naturally that way, you should work to build their ability to chill out when nothing is happening instead of feeding their ADHD type of lifestyle.

Try it yourself - if you get daily vigorous exercise, you'll soon go stir crazy in a day if you don't get it. Most dogs do not need to be fit like professional athletes and even the ones that do usually have half of the year "off". Sure every dog needs 1-3h of exercise a day, but it doesn't need to be high impact. If the dog still has unspent energy after hours of exercise I'd also recommend nosewor. It teaches the dog to concentrate and additionally lowers stress by providing a species specific activity that comes naturally for a lot of dogs. Working for their food via teaching tricks or just working to find their dinner hidden in small portions around the house are great ways to tire a dog out.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2011 16:50

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

notsoape posted:

and the 'reprimand' is nothing more than a stern 'Ah-ah' followed by oodles of praise for subsequently making the right decision.

Do you ask Mouse to do something (sit, come etc) before you praise? I was recently told by an instructor to stop praising Rho for complying when I tell them no (no sniffing in the agility ring in this specific instance). He suggested I ask him to do a trick or something and *then* praise for complying.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2011 06:35

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

themindisonfire posted:

I'm not sure it's that he doesn't know the tricks, it's really more of an impatient sort of bark, like he's literally saying HEY THAT IS MINE GIVE NOW. He's learned speak, and he never used to bark like he does now before he learned that command. Would separating him from the situation or putting away the treat until he calms down help you think? I've also not been using the clicker for him much lately... maybe I'll reinstate it because the omgletmerunthrougheverythinguntiltreat started after it was sort of not being used anymore.

Pi has issues with demand barking and what works for him is a time-out. It makes for a lot of time-outs in the beginning (so many it isn't really that "positive" training anymore imo), but it's the only thing I know that works. Trying to teach him a cue for "quiet" just got him to bark in order to be cued to shut up. Trying to ask for several behaviors to get him to shut up and reward for those just got me some pretty ridiculous behavior chains.

Only engage the dog if he's quiet and your problem will eventually go away. Make sure he understands that he lost his opportunity to work with you: put the dog away or leave yourself.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2011 14:27

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

notsoape posted:

Here's a link to the actual clip of Jordan Shelley and the JRT, so you can see just how hosed up his methods were. It's even worse than what the pictures show.

That's loving infuriating. Preventing food/resource guarding from becoming a problem is literally the simplest thing and fixing it isn't that much more difficult either, it just takes more time. After a couple of minutes that idiot is shoving his foot into the dog's face without even giving it a chance to comply with his leave cue. The choice of background music also pisses me off. Rho was watching the clip with me and got visibly upset over it too. Even my dog knows better than this guy.

With regards to how exciting watching good training is, I guess it depends on how much of a crazy dog person you are. I'll watch a proficient trainer shape behaviors for hours and I've audited more than my share of training seminars. You can learn more from just observing than actually participating with your dog. (I'll admit though that getting Joe Average to watch real dog training might not be simple, because you do have to know what you're looking at and be motivated to learn from it.)

# ¿ Sep 21, 2011 11:55

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

a life less posted:

It's the Joe Average who ends up paying your bills though, and he wants to see big changes in short amounts of time.

But you definitely can deal with resource guarding more effectively, more humanely and quite quickly if you know what you're doing. Teaching a dog "Leave it" is one of my favorite things. Many average dog owners think their dog is incapable of learning to leave something on cue and it's so incredibly easy to teach without using any kind of force. I tend to think people simply like to see dogs bullied. Punishing suppresses behavior quickly and is +R for the punisher unfortunately.

Brad Pattison gets on my nerves even more than the BBC guy. He's obnoxious and I absolutely cannot fathom why anyone would give him the time of day. I can imagine Millan for example being a nice guy to be around and convincing if you don't know any better, but how Pattison manages to get people to trust him is a mystery to me.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2011 18:17

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

rear end Waffle posted:

How do I get my dog to stop mouthing my hands? It's really annoying. She doesn't do it all the time, but when she gets excited and wants to play, she bites all over my hands and arms. She's obviously playing because she doesn't bite hard, but it's annoying. My dog is a German Shepherd, about a year old. I rescued her a few months ago she's been this way since I got her. Any advice on how to approach this?

Mark the behavior with yelping (or whatever), walk away and don't look back. All fun stops if teeth meet skin. Only re-engage the dog when she's calm. You should also try to incorporate control behaviors into play sessions: ask for a sit or a down etc. while playing and reward compliance with releasing to continue playing.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2011 20:22

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

rear end Waffle posted:

I tried walking away and ignoring but she pounces on my back and bites at my shirt.

You need to leave the room and close the door behind you if she does this. Ignoring won't work if she gets to keep having fun pouncing and biting at your shirt.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2011 15:15

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Silver Nitrate posted:

It's not fear aggression, they're just being assholes.

I would put money on it still being aggression based on insecurity/fear, even if it doesn't look like it. You should approach it as such (DS&CC until you've changed the dog's emotional state and then train an incompatible behavior). A bit of Look At That! game can work wonders, it's pretty much the only thing that consistently worked with Pi's dog aggression. Teach the dog a cue to look at a novel stimulus (have an item in your hand behind your back, show it and when the dog looks at it, C+T). Work your way toward more and more difficult stimuli until you can tell him to look at that strange dog. The end result should be that he offers a glance at the direction of the stimulus (even uncued is ok, but you can cue the behavior if you notice the novel stimulus first) and then immediately reorient to you for his treat.

Kunabomber Check out the Yahoo Group for Control Unleashed. It's got plenty of discussion on the Protocol and if you can't find a specific answer, you can ask. Leslie McDevitt (of CU fame) even chimes in herself quite a bit.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2011 05:52

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Skizzles posted:

However, with a soda machine where you're supposed to get something every time, if it fails once or twice to deliver your soda, how likely are you to try it again?

If the soda machine has worked perfectly in the past, odds are you'll try harder in an extinction burst, maybe kick it once or twice. Then when the kick does deliver the soda, you'll make sure to put more intensity in the behavior of getting your soda next time, maybe kick it for good measure in a display of learned superstitious behavior.

("Riding the extinction burst" is really difficult for the trainer to execute well, so I'm not recommending it, but you can use it to amp up the behavior you're building.)

# ¿ Oct 30, 2011 10:35

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Fraction posted:

She does advocate against hard stares and alpha rolls but it kind of seems like an R+ ish version of dominance theory, with the same justifications of it to keep 'status seeking' dogs in line. It's a little odd.

Plenty of clicker trainers would agree with that though. For example Shirley Chong (whose Shirley's Retrieve has been recommended many times in this very thread) outlines a very similar plan in Leading the dance.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2011 20:59

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 00:15

Rixatrix: Aug 5, 2006

Fraction posted:

Do you think that's a holdover from a lot of trainers having started out in dominance backgrounds/so much dominance theory stuff being so popular?

I don't know. They do tend to stick with it, Shirley's website has been updated recently and her article is still there.

I do (strongly) believe that any good trainer will take leadership issues into consideration when training and more generally, when living life with dogs. Clickerly people tend to talk about it in softer terms than the Millanesque folks ("leading the dance" versus "pack leader"), but it's still there most of the time. The way I see it, when done properly it's more about structure than dominance. (Being the one who opens doors and provides food you ARE the dominant one by definition, so it's a moot point anyway.) You can build structure into a dog's life with NILF and clicker training, but you need to be really consistent and that's really hard for a lot of people. I don't think it matters one bit where your dog walks etc. just as long as you are in a position to tell him where to go. I guess articles like Leading the Dance and McConnell's text just outline one way of achieving this for someone who's confused about it.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2011 10:08

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Pet Island > My dog is smarter than your honor student: the Dog Training Thread

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