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Rixatrix posted:Thanks for your comments. I mean food altogether. Rho's not very food motivated and if I feed him AND try to train him with food, I know it won't work. So yeah, I'm going hardcore. I know he'd prefer to be raw fed so I'm thinking of getting chicken necks and cutting them to bits. I've done it before, yes it's disgusting, but it worked for Pi. If I try it with kibble, I'm afraid Rho'll just starve himself until I lose it and just give him the drat kibble in his bowl. Chicken wings/necks may get his attention better. Is there something that's the most rewarding thing in the universe for him? With Major I used a gross dried pigeon wing on a very variable schedule. Just once or twice a day call him over and whip out that wing and let him sniff/nibble it for a couple of seconds. You probably do this already but also doing recalls on walks or offleash time and then letting him go back to playing can be highly rewarding. Don't be afraid to bring out the really stinky stuff for important commands. I bake up a big batch of beef liver every couple of weeks even though it makes my house stink because Major will do anything for it. I mix it up with kibble treats too so he never knows what its going to be and he's not eating a pound of liver in a training session.
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Nov 11, 2010 15:54
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Industrial posted:It seems like if I leash for coming and then release her she will think she is being punished, although I admit I am not an expert on the dog brain. The leashing just becomes part of the ritual, not a punishment if you let her go right after. You might also want to work on an emergency recall cue. The pamphlet "Really Reliable Recall" helped me a lot with this. You want to pair a word or noise with the best thing in the world for your dog (see my earlier comment about the gross pigeon wing). That way the recall cue isn't "Get over here now!" its "Get over here now...because awesome things are going to happen!". Just say the word/make the noise while presenting the totally amazing thing a couple times a day, slowly working up to distracting situations. After a week or so with the pigeon wing and recalling for raw meals I was able to call Major off a flock of turkeys he was chasing full tilt.
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Nov 13, 2010 04:48
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a life less posted:I added the Tools of the Trade section where I go over the basic items you'll need to train your dog. Just a note about the prong collar. Suzanne Clothier, who no longer uses prongs in training but wants people to use them correctly, says (emphasis hers): Suzanne Clothier posted:"When properly fitted, the prong collar should be at roughly the mid-way point on the dog's neck, with the chain portion flat, not sagging. Beware those who recommend fitting a prong collar (or any collar) up high, near the dog's ears - their intention is to cause pain by putting the collar in this nerve rich, muscle poor area of great sensitivity."
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Nov 14, 2010 20:41
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a life less posted:Good catch. Thanks for the quote. I added it to the prong collar section and gave you credit. Obviously I'm pretty unfamiliar with the ins and outs of prongs, so thanks for jumping in there. No problem. I've never used one but I know a lot of people do and try to know as much as possible about different methods. I read a big argument about them recently and no one had a good reason for placing them right under the jawline other than that's where it gives the biggest reaction from the dog and I try not to go into training thinking "What will hurt my dog the most?". You might want to link the whole article, there is some good info about proper prong collar use and fitting there. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Nov 14, 2010 |
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Nov 14, 2010 23:06
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panictheory posted:So I have a quick question. What is the best age to start advanced training with a puppy? Do they respond to the clicker at an early age or should that be saved until they are more mature? Clickers can be used with pretty much anything with a spinal column so they certainly will work on an 8 week old puppy. Just keep it fun and low pressure or your pup may come to dislike or fear training sessions. This will depend on the personality of your dog but watch for stress signals and use short sessions at first.
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Nov 19, 2010 02:15
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Kiri koli posted:Dog psych meds I would talk to a veterinary behaviorist before starting a course of meds, rather than just talking to your trainer and vet. I have an appointment for my dog's severe car issues that may require medication because I have tried all of my trainer's suggestions and the vet didn't feel comfortable dealing with behavioral issues. Some meds can actually increase reactivity/impulse control issues so you really need to find someone who knows what they are doing. Its just like people psych issues, you need to see a psychiatrist instead of your general practitioner. I was planning on writing up our visit last week, but it got moved back to the 31st.
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Dec 19, 2010 06:43
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Kiri koli posted:I tried googling veterinary behaviorist and I'm having a hard time figuring out if it's an official designation with a separate degree and everything. Also, when I try to find one in my area I just get the vet programs at my local universities. It is a specialty within veterinary medicine with a board certification exam, here's a page explaining it with a search option to find someone near you. I would check an see if the vet you're going to is at least a member of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior because it shows they are keeping up with current research. It may be hard to find someone who is certified in your area because there are only 54 in the country last I checked. The one I'm going to isn't, but has a masters in behavior and has made it her focus so I trust her.
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Dec 19, 2010 16:09
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Kiri koli posted:Ha, I saw that site and thought it looked shady. Thanks. Just as I expected, the nearest one is 2 and a half hours away. That isn't too bad, but I think we'll talk to the vet first and ask some questions about her qualifications and experience. Since there are so few a lot of them are able to do phone consultations or work with your trainer, so don't discount them just because they're far away 
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Dec 19, 2010 16:22
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Kiri koli posted:I'll keep that in mind, but I always squirm a little at the idea of diagnosing a dog over the phone. Everytime I describe Psyche's behavior, I feel like I'm not doing it justice and want to go on for forever just to get every nuance in there. And I don't even really know what I'm talking about! I think I'd definitely trust a vet with behavior experience who has witnessed my dog's body language over someone with a behavior degree that I've just talked to over the phone. I'd even feel weird having the trainer do the talking, though she understands the correct language to use for dog behavior. I totally get that feeling, but if you continue to have issues don't discount the option. They really are professionals and have seen all sorts of behavioral problems so they know what to ask. They expect your descriptions to go on forever! Even the one I'm seeing in person has a 10 page form to fill out that includes diagrams of my house, the entire veterinary history of my dog, his daily schedule, and every aspect of his training so far. I've seen some people even send in videos of their dog's behavior so the behaviorist can understand it better.
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Dec 19, 2010 17:53
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I finally had my appointment with the veterinary behaviorist today and I thought since we all recommend them so much it might help people if I wrote up my experience. Sorry its so long! It was a complicated process. The vet I went with isn't board certified but has done internships with board certified behaviorists and she is a member of APDT and the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior plus she came highly recommended from my vet so I trusted her completely. For some background I've had Major, a ~3 year old hunting/farm dog mix, for 5 months and in that time he has developed severe travel anxiety that has continued to escalate despite work with trainers. Now it takes him days to recover from car rides and has started becoming dog reactive when we drive places and gets stress colitis. He also has some mild anxiety indoors and has being urinating indoors randomly. Before the appointment there was a 10 page form to fill out detailing Major's background, things I have tried so far, household dynamics, what an average day is like, and details of previous incidents. I'm sort of OCD and have a behavior background so I did a full behavior log of a day in Major's life and a complete trip in the car. She also required his complete medical records and if it was an aggression case she will have your vet run medical tests like thyroid levels so she has those going in. When the Dr. got to my place (she only does home visits right now, she's in the process of moving into a new office) we began with going over the form so she could clarify things and take notes and observe Major in the house. She noted right away that he is very attention seeking and has trouble relaxing. He will lie down or even settle on his side but he isn't actually relaxed, its more of a conditioned response because I've rewarded it so much. We also took a spin the car, since that's where Major's main issue is. He did what he always does, which was nice so she could see what I deal with. She brought along a Manners Minder remote treat dispenser to see if it would help. Major immediately knocked it sideways in his crate and when she went to adjust him Major put his mouth on her hand and was very anxious about her being near his crate which is something I have never encountered. After the Dr. had gone over all the forms and taken all her notes we started discussing how we are going to tackle this issue. She was very mindful of cost limitations and straightforward when she thought the more expensive option was not the best. She gave me many options and let me choose which to pursue now and which to contemplate for later. The consult fee includes 4 months of biweekly phone rechecks so we will be able to tweak as we go along. It was so nice having someone else see the behavior and she had so many new ideas to work on. I had run out of ideas and was feeling really frustrated and hopeless before this but now I have so many more resources and we haven't even looked into medication yet. If anyone is having behavior issues with a pet I highly recommend finding a veterinary behaviorist. It was very expensive but its totally worth it to have hope that I can take my buddy places again some day. This post has gotten crazy long so I'll detail what exactly we're doing moving forward in a different post if anyone is interested. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Dec 31, 2010 |
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Dec 31, 2010 02:53
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a life less posted:Yes please! I love hearing about this sort of stuff. I hope to be involved with dog training if not behaviour (which might be obvious to y'all) so the more information I can soak up the better. No problem! I didn't want to throw everything in one post because its quite a lot of info. The appointment was 2 hours, which was the standard first appointment time. The first hour was mostly going over the form and discussing her observations, the second hour was going over options, coming up with a plan, and seeing him in action. Before this I had tried clicking for quiet behavior in the car, exhausting him before rides, refocusing him when he fixated on other cars, rewarding him for cars passing when not in the car, using chew toys to keep him distracted during rides, driving around the block and rewarding for calm behavior, sitting in parking lots and rewarding for cars approaching/calm behavior in general, and practicing calm behavior just sitting in the garage. He had gotten to the point where he would hit the window so hard lunging at passing cars that I was worried he would hurt himself. Lately I have managed it with slight success by playing the Through a Dog's Ear CD and keeping him in a completely covered crate but otherwise have had very little success. Its a tough situation because he can not travel in a way that I can reach him to reward him so the manners minder I think is going to help quite a bit (even though its freakishly expensive). Our plan for this month is Major is to wear a nurtureCALM 24/7 pheromone collar and take L-theanine daily to reduce anxiety in general. The collar is like the DAP collar but cheaper, it lasts longer, and you can take it on and off. It is not made by the same company so it doesn't have the research behind it but the Dr prefers them to start off. Our training homework is to work on mat training, getting a bathmat and having relaxation time (massage and calming music) on it daily, in the hopes that the mat will bring calm in his car crate. The mat should help with the hypervigilance indoors too as its going to be paired with a "go to mat" command. This is going to be hard because Major has terrible body awareness and commands that involve him moving his body in a certain way or to a certain place are challenging for me to train but I'm happy to work on it. I also need to step up my NILIF because he has some obnoxious attention seeking behavior that she gave me some ideas to work on but said that can be on the back burner right now. I'm also getting a manners minder of my own and teaching Major to ring a bell for a treat and eventually working on him being able to do it in the car to give him a job in the car other than worry. He is not going to be able to be in an uncovered crate for quite some time so with the bell I can give him something to do without having to see him. She usually redirects dogs to sit or down but I can't see him do that and a "speak" command is sort of the opposite of what I want. The trick is going to be rigging all of this up in his crate and getting him to not destroy it. There's a crazy gimp hood for dogs that she mentioned could be used instead of a covered crate but she thinks the crate is much better so we're sticking with that. For the next two weeks we're just going back and forth on the driveway working on relaxation, after that we may graduate to up and down the street a few houses. Right now 5 minute rides are about as much as he can take without coming unhinged. The Dr suggested a kong but Major gives up on kongs right away so instead she wants me to freeze tasty things to the sides of a metal bowl so he can just lick it off easily. Licking is supposed to have a more relaxing effect than chewing. Bully sticks sort of work right now but he whines while chewing and they are gone in 15 minutes. Next month we will reevaluate whether to start him on a daily anti-anxiety meds and if the pheromone collar is helping I'll probably get him DAP spray and a thundershirt and just soak him in the stuff for rides. Major is a dog who really craves closeness so she thinks a thundershirt would be really good for him but I have to wait until I get paid to try. We are avoiding Xanax and she mentioned herbal solutions but says she doesn't recommend them for dogs because they rarely work. I guess they work well on cats though. She gave me a list of books to look into too, although there aren't any good books on travel anxiety: How to Behave so Your Dog Behaves by Sofia Yin Oh Behave! Dogs from Pavlov to Premack to Pinker by Jean Donaldson ZOOmility: Keeper Tales of Training with Positive Reinforcement by Grey Stafford I'm sure I'm forgetting something so I'll probably add more when the clinic emails me her typed up notes of what we went over and decided to work on this month.
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Dec 31, 2010 04:18
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a life less posted:Instant Jellyfish, thanks for going over all that in detail. Please keep us posted as you go on. I like how you were given specific exercises for your dog, as I would probably only think to approach it via counterconditioning. The bathmat thing sounds like a great idea. Right now we do some light cavaletti work and standing on a box with the front paws. Eventually I'll add in pivoting and targeting with back paws but we're not there yet. I figure eventually the light bulb will switch on but he's such a big lug and doesn't do well with luring so it takes a while and a lot of patience. I grew up with corgis so its a little frustrating but he's enthusiastic and we'll get there at his pace. If you want to talk about your work with body awareness go ahead! I love hearing about Cohen's tricks, she's one of my fav PI dogs. Impossimole posted:Separation anxiety SA is really challenging and if it so bad that you are worried that he may hurt himself you may want to talk to a veterinary behaviorist. That being said there are plenty of people who have dealt with this problem and there are things you can do. The book I'll Be Home Soon by Patricia McConnell is something you might want to pick up as it goes into things way more in depth that I think any of us can here. You're going to want to work on desensitizing Pickles to you coming and going until its not a big deal any more. You might want to start by just getting ready then sitting down for a while. Then move up to leaving for 30 seconds to a minute. Just ignore him while coming and going. Leave him with a stinky snack that he only gets when you are doing going away practice. Here's a good site that outlines this process. Also really work on making the crate awesome while you are there. If he feels like going into the crate means your leaving then its never going to be comforting to him. I would work on shaping him going to the crate on his own. Reward for just looking at the crate at first and slowly move up to being in the crate. Jackpot with something super fantastic when you shut the door for just a split second. The key is to always make it a positive thing and keep sessions short. If you see him drooling you've taken it too far for that session. You may also want to look into some scientifically proven calming products like DAP diffusers and the Through A Dog's Ear cds. They are meant to be used in conjunction with training so don't expect them to fix the issue alone. Don't give your dog any herbs or supplements without talking to a vet first and be wary of things that don't have any research behind them! Increasing the amount of exercise your dog gets can also help in many cases. A tired dog is a relaxed dog. Again, I recommend seeing a professional because SA can get worse over time if the dog continues to practice these behaviors and they are certainly controllable with the proper training. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jan 2, 2011 |
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Jan 2, 2011 02:37
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A bit of an update. Its been almost a week since Major's visit with the vet behaviorist. He's been taking L-theanine twice daily and wearing his DAP collar non-stop since then. He's also been having relaxing time on a mat daily and I've started working on sitting with the car on for 4-5 minutes a day. It takes two weeks for the meds to take full effect but I'm seeing some slight changes in behavior already. He seems to able to recover from stressful events faster. After our 4 minute car practice today he came in and hopped up on the couch rather than chugging his entire bowl of water. Hooray! He also has been seeking out toys and playing on his own which he has never really done before. Outdoors he has been exploring further away and acting more independent and inside he has been sleeping in various places around the house instead of right on top of me. He's still like the world's whiniest shark, mostly in the mornings, and there are some times where I feel like I'm going to lose it if he circles the room one more time. I think that's become a pretty ingrained habit and teaching him to go to a specific place and stay there will help. Impulse control seems like it has take a big back slide lately despite increasingly strict NILIF. I'm not sure if it is related to the meds or if he's just feeling more confident or what. He's been rushing the windows to bark at passing horse carriages or the mail truck or the neighbor dog he suddenly hates, tackling me while zooming around the pasture, trying to drag me everywhere on leash and leaping to snatch things out of my hands, all things he hasn't done since the first month I got him. Yesterday he even split my lip open pawing me in the face trying to get me to play while I was trying to vacuum under a table. It will be interesting to see what he's like in the next week. I'm going back to baby impulse control and gentle play exercises so hopefully that will show some improvement. A 75 lb dog with a puppy brain is no fun at all. Smai I would go back to some really basic "leave it" practice like the "it's yer choice" game outlined here. Start with things inside that are easy to leave then build up to more exciting things in different places. Also when you are walking and trying to redirect onto a treat use it to lead your dog away from the item so its not right there being tempting when the treat is eaten. She's also a hound so snorfling out dead things is going to be super motivating, you might want to pick a super smelly treat like baked liver to really get her mind off of them. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jan 5, 2011 |
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Jan 5, 2011 21:16
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Piglips posted:I'm considering trialing a bark-shock collar (he's growling as he attacks the other dog), which is not something that I've ever wanted to use, but the other dog is seriously suffering... can anyone suggest any other training strategies to curb him of doing this? I've been looking at the counterconditioning info but I'm not sure how I'd apply it. Oh God, a shock collar is a really bad idea for this. Its just going to make the terrier more aggressive in this situation. The terrier is getting way too excited about the door and redirects it at the other dog. You need to desensitize the dog to the door knocking in a way that's safe for both dogs. The way I would approach this is to teach the dog to go to a bed or rug out of the way when he hears knocking on the door. Here's how to train "go to your mat". Once the dog knows how to go to the mat I would have one person knock on the door, then you lead the dog to the mat and give him oodles of treats for sitting there. The other person can then let themselves in while you continue to give treats. Have the cav safe in another room while you do this! With enough practice the dog will learn the knocking on the door means to go to the mat and chill for awesome treats. While you're working on this make sure to separate the dogs quickly when someone knocks when you aren't training to prevent the terrier from getting too amped up and redirecting onto your cav.
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Jan 7, 2011 02:12
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Here's my update on my work on Major's travel anxiety for week two. I figure this thread could use a bump too as it seems like there have been a lot of training related thread popping up lately. We had our phone evaluation this week to see how we're progressing and things are coming along well. The behaviorist clearly understands that +R works on people too and made sure to tell me how well I'm doing and how much she appreciates working with me because I have a behavior background  It certainly made me much more likely to continue to keep our phone appointments!As of right now Major is able to spend up to 5 minutes in a stationary but running car licking a frozen bowl of goodies without whining and then get out and be relatively relaxed. This doesn't sound like much but its a pretty big deal. Previously he would come in from spending any amount of time in the car and chug a whole dish of water and spend the next half an hour pacing frantically. I'm going to be keeping him at this stage for another week or so because I have a habit of rushing things and I'm really trying to lay a good foundation. The next step will be to pull out of the garage then back in. I tried switching things up and giving a kong instead of a bowl but he went right back to whining. Maybe I need a bigger kong? I think he doesn't like having to work to get the stuff in it enough to keep at it in a stressful environment. This week we are adding in the Thundershirt to see if that helps. He's fine wearing it and I've been incorporating it into our relaxation exercises but if he's just lounging around in it he tries to chew the velcro off. I think this will get better with some practice. I also just picked up the Manners Minder which I am totally pumped about! I've been watching youtube videos of the different ways people have used them and I can't wait. It comes with a dvd and a book of how to use it which I'm enjoying now. I really like Dr. Yin. Major isn't scared or shy about new objects at all so I'm speeding through the introduction part and he's starting to understand the tone. He already knows the clicker and a marker word so I'm sure he'll pick it up fine. The trick is keeping him from using it like the buster cube and trying to bash it open with his paws. I've been putting it away when he gets too rough with it and that seems to have done the trick so far. The vet behaviorist recommended a thing called the tell bell to teach him to do something in his crate in the car that I can reward him for without having to see him at all. Those are expensive and I spent about $600 on the dog last month so I got creative. Instead of that we are using a $5 "easy button" from Staples. It talks when you press it and if people can use it to train their roommates I can use it to train my dog. So far its looking like I won't need to get into other meds for Major! I get kind of frustrated sometimes because this process is going to take so long but I just take it day by day and keep a log of all his progress to see where we've come from.
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Jan 13, 2011 22:56
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a life less posted:That's really great. I really enjoy your updates. They're nice and thorough. Your training center looks amazing, congrats on the job! Most of the training clubs near me suck. They claim they are +R but you go and its full of puppies getting pulled around on prong collars with everyone looking miserable or shut down. The closest ones that I like are an hour and a half away and its going to be quite a while before we're up to that. As for teaching non-dog folks, what I found works with teaching biology to freshmen who just want to pass their intro class was to use a lot of stupid analogies. Start talking about a moth who uses its proboscis to sense vibrations on a specialized membrane and people fall asleep, tell people the moth uses its head like a record player and more people get it even if they think its dumb.
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Jan 13, 2011 23:56
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MissConduct posted:Wonderful, informative thread! Thanks, OP! Ignoring attention seeking behavior takes a really really long time to work because even some really minor things, like just looking at them, can be reinforcing. What my behaviorist is having me do with my dogs super obnoxious attention seeking is to get up and do something, then have the dog sit/down/whatever, and give him attention for that. Here's the actual text from my evaluation summary. The Behavior Clinic posted:Attention Seeking is best addressed through Ignoring. Unfortunately, this is the MOST difficult way to address attention seeking. Why? Once you start ignoring an attention-seeking event, you must not look at, talk to (including reprimands), touch, or move toward your pet! Doing these things will just inadvertently reinforce the attention seeking with attention! This is a very difficult thing to commit to as the attention seeking may escalate at first because it used to work! If you absolutely cannot ignore at a certain time, get up and walk away to an area of the house where you know your pet will change gears (i.e., Walk to the refrigerator, look out the window, open the garage door, use the bathroom, etc). Once you pet stops attention seeking for even one brief second—pay them with attention by interrupting your pet with some obedience commands. If your pet can perform an appropriate response, you can then pay him with a food-stuffed kong or other ‘Job’ to perform instead of attention seeking from you! Thunder anxiety can be really hard to deal with, especially if you aren't there. I would invest in a DAP plugin and put it on when you know its going to storm and you aren't going to be around. I would also keep up working on counterconditioning. Here's Patricia McConnell's thunder phobia page, its really thorough. Finally, dogs can learn at any age! Tell your friend good job for adopting an older dog too!
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Jan 14, 2011 15:41
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DenialTwist posted:Okay, so I'm coming in hopes that someone here will be able to help me deal with an extremely frustrating problem in my household. Maverick is a jumper, but not on people, she jumps on doors specifically the backdoor when she's ready to come in from her potty break. She has never been a big barker, but I'm really not sure how to address this behavior. Right now you are showing up whenever she bangs on the door, so she really sees no reason to stop. When you don't show up she does it harder in an extinction burst. If I gave you  whenever you knocked on my door but then suddenly stopped, you would start knocking harder too. Eventually she will probably give up but if you are worried about her breaking the glass I would give her an alternative way to tell you she wants to come in, like teaching a dog to ring a bell to go out but in reverse. Here's a pdf on doorbell training that I think sums things up well. You'll have to go out with her while you are training this but its better than having your dog be full of glass.
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Jan 14, 2011 16:08
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MissConduct posted:Thanks very much, Jellyfish! I have a DAP collar for my dog because he needs it on the go and not in a specific room but I have definitely seen improvement in his general anxiety level and the DAP diffuser is supposed to work better than the collars. I've also used the Through a Dog's Ear cd mentioned on Patricia McConnell's page and had success with that. It seems like a bunch of BS but I put it on and my dog is out cold. I had to get the one specifically for the car because the regular one has been known to make people fall asleep when its on. My behaviorist has had clients fall asleep during interviews when she has it on in the background. Impulse control exercises are always a good idea! They may not curb those behaviors but they can lay a foundation so that you can. Here's a good video that goes over how to stop counter surfing. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jan 15, 2011 |
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Jan 14, 2011 23:08
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Kiri koli posted:Thank you so much for the update! I love hearing how other people are working with "challenging" dogs. I was going to comment on your last post but forgot so I'm really glad you stuck with the prozac at a low dose. Just like with people it can take up to a month before you see any difference because it takes a long time for brain chemistry to change. Keep looking for and appreciating the subtle changes. I've found keeping a daily log has really helped me notice how far my dog and I have come. The negative reinforcement with the muzzle is interesting. I haven't heard of that technique before. Its weird about your trainer's behavior though. Maybe she was just having a rough day? Please keep us updated. Its really nice to know I'm not the only one who struggles some days or feels overwhelmed.
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Jan 22, 2011 20:34
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Kiri koli posted:She told us during the consultation that Psyche was in some 1% of dogs with serious issues, which I thought was harsh because by all accounts she didn't have these issues with her foster family and it was a new reaction. But anyway, I thought her attitude then was strange and a bit unprofessional. My husband said I was imagining it, but this seems to be that same thing. Maybe she had a bad experience or maybe she's just not good at dealing with this level of reactivity. A lot of the dogs she deals with seem to just have excitement or shyness issues. When I got Major his foster family said he got along well with other dogs and loved car rides  . Environment can make such a difference in dog behavior.I know what you mean about classes. Even if I were at the point were Major could drive someplace for classes the closest one is an hour away and I didn't feel comfortable there at all. The ones I like are at least an hour and a half away. I feel like having a class to go to each week would really help with some of his non-car issues but getting there just turns him into a total wreck so he can't learn anything.
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Jan 22, 2011 22:29
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Robayon I've got some questions that I hope you don't mind. None of this is attacking you at all, I'm just curious. I looked at Bark Busters briefly because it was one of the few training places in my area but a couple of things turned me off. I watched some videos of their training on youtube and read the website and it said that a home training session lasts 3-4 hours but has a lifetime guarantee. How exactly does that work? I know my dog shuts down after 15-20 minutes of training straight. Does the guarantee exclude changes in circumstance or if my dog starts barking/lunging/whatever for any reason do you come back out? Do you really think that you "growling" at a dog is the same as a dog growling at another dog or does it just work as a sort of a positive punishment? In the videos I saw it was often paired with a leash correction, is that used to "charge" the growl? For a noise sensitive dog would you change your methods to not rely loud noises/shake cans/throwing things as heavily? What about harder dogs? Just in general people who go on and on about what dogs are like "in the wild" bother me. I spent time in the middle of nowhere Bangladesh and saw groups of pariah dogs everywhere. They mostly hung out in ones and twos and never had an obvious rigid pack structure. I met a vet there who caught pariah dogs for blood tests and he never found them in packs either. They might gather in the same area like people in a food court but didn't really display wolf-like pack behavior. Edit: Sorry about the rant, have a pariah dog to make up for it. We gave her some bread because she seemed sad.  Click here for the full 1024x683 image. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jan 24, 2011 |
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Jan 24, 2011 16:55
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a life less posted:
I'm late but I use an easywalk too. Major pulls and will lunge at a certain dog he hates but easywalk has held up and makes him much easier to control. He's 75 lbs of pure muscle but he hasn't been able to knock me down with it. It does have some issues with regards to fit though. I have to clip it to his regular collar with a carabiner or else he sometimes steps through the front because it sags. I've heard putting it on upside down can help too. I've also heard that the new "eco" line is flimsier so don't go with that. The vet behaviorist sometimes recommended head halters for anxious dogs not to use as a LLWing aid but as a relaxation aid. I guess it puts pressure on certain points that calm some dogs down. She said it doesn't work with every dog but it helps maybe 3-4 dogs a year.
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Jan 25, 2011 21:26
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Does anyone else read Dr. Yin's blog? She posted an interesting article on the effects of shock collar use today. She also has some really good responses to the comments. In the study they found that dogs trained with a shock collar compared to dogs trained with other positive punishment techniques (choke chains, prong collars, even kicking/hitting the dogs) show more stress and fear signals in response to the corrections and even just in the area where training usually takes place. It showed that the use of the collar is not just "like a tap on the shoulder" like many proponents of shock collars claim.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:11
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That thing I sent posted:
Dude, my dog broke a collar and three leashes chasing turkey before he gained any semblance of self control. You're not starting back at the beginning you just have further to go yet. It'll be fine
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Jan 26, 2011 02:26
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My progress! 
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MissConduct posted:Thought I'd let you guys know that I got a copy of "Through A Dog's Ear" just in time for the latest thunder storm. Yay! They say it has a scientific basis but I swear its crazy voodoo magic.
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Jan 26, 2011 15:56
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a life less posted:How do I train my child to... There actually is a movement to use clicker training with people called TAGteach which I find fascinating. It seems to be used mostly in kids sports for teaching form. Here's a video with some cheesy music about it. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Jan 28, 2011 |
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Jan 28, 2011 16:57
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Belisama posted:I have a bit of an odd situation - I'm not sure if this question should be here or puppy FAQ, so if I need to redirect let me know. Puppies often need to pee after playing (and eating and waking up) so I would guess it just seemed like a good place when he had to go. Most marking issues are housebreaking issues. Just take him out any time you are transitioning from one activity to another and praise like crazy when he pees outside. The excitement pee is often outgrown, especially when the dog gains confidence. Is it when people are greeting him? I would work on doing whatever it is that is exciting him in the blandest way possible for a while. Just ignore him when you are returning home or whatever. If he pees just clean it up like its no big deal. If its happening a lot without him seeming to notice you may want to check in with your vet to make sure its not a medical problem.
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Jan 28, 2011 20:20
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Cassiope posted:Will sleeping out of the room help with separation anxiety? We've kicked Moxie out of the bedroom at night for the past three nights but I'd like input on whether or not that's likely to help or hurt her separation anxiety. Anecdotally I have heard that sleeping in a different room helps prevent SA and may help once its already developed. SA is one of the few anxieties Major doesn't have but I don't know how much that has to do with him sleeping in a different room at night. When I first got him he would pitch a fit at bedtime because he wanted to be with me but I didn't give in and now he goes to bed just fine. A few times I have freaked out about my house alarm going off at night and let him sleep in my bed and the next night he would revert back to whining but he's always gotten over it. I don't have close neighbors though so you might have to balance pushing her comfort level and getting kicked out of your place. Have you tried a DAP plugin around her bed area? That may help. I also really, really like the Through a Dog's Ear cds. I didn't think they would do anything at all but after pairing the music with some relaxation time a couple of times I can just put it on and Major finds his mat and passes out. It puts me to sleep to so everyone might benefit!
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Jan 31, 2011 21:57
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my dog boyfriend!!! posted:
A one year old dog is certainly not too old for training, although it should have been done sooner. The clicker is just a reward marker and as long as everyone is on the same page about training they can all use it. Here's a real basic video on training. Watch all of kikopup's videos, they're awesome! The resource guarding to the point of seriously hurting someone needs to be dealt with way before they have kids or its not going to end well for anyone. The book Mine! would be a good start but if the dog is really hurting people they should probably seek a professional positive dog trainer or veterinary behaviorist.
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Feb 1, 2011 16:55
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LONGPOST
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MrFurious posted:Seems reasonable that you could use a specific hand gesture as well. What if I make a fist and stick my pinky out and have her follow that? Anyone tried something similar? I did! A fist with my first two fingers pointing out is Major's cue to touch and follow. He will also touch a lure stick (came with my Manners Minder) or a plastic yogurt tub lid.
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Feb 1, 2011 21:41
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I hope no one minds another installment of Major's progress dealing with severe travel anxiety. We're at 1 month since his visit with the behaviorist and he's moving along at a good pace. We still haven't moved out of the garage but its been weeks since he's shown stress signals after rides and he barely whines at all as long as he has something to do. We are up to 15 minutes with the engine on and the music playing and in the next week or two we're going to go up and down the driveway. Exciting! I think giving him something to do other than just lick or chew has really helped. I've trained him to push one of those "easy buttons" from Staples to get me to trigger the MannersMinder for some treats. I think having some control over his environment makes the whole travel thing a lot less anxiety provoking. In the house his anxiety and pacing has gotten so much better! Part of it is that he is finally just pooping whenever he needs to go instead of holding it until the planets align properly. Teaching him to go on command helped a lot but he also is just less anxious about the world in general. Having a specific relaxation spot and practicing relaxation every once in a while has helped him quite a bit too. Right now I took his DAP collar off and I'm seeing how much that has contributed. He needed a bath anyway. The MannersMinder also helped a ton and is an amazing tool and I love it. I live by myself and a lot of training games involve two people which I just don't have. With the MM I have another set of hands for recall games and to reward him for not worrying when I leave the room or I can treat him in his crate in the car. After a week of using it he sticks to his mat like glue. I forgot to release him when I called him to me once and he wiggled and waggled but didn't budge until I said "OK" and he exploded over to me for his treat. He goes to his mat when I'm cooking or eating or when he just feels the need to relax, even if the MM isn't set up there. There are definitely issues we are going to have to work through once we can finally go places like classes but I feel like we are slowly but surely getting there. 15 minutes sitting in a car and pooping like a normal dog doesn't seem like much but a month ago any time in the car was spend screaming and howling and he would spend up to 4 hours a day pacing because he needed to go but wouldn't.
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Feb 2, 2011 02:40
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a life less posted:That's sounding like it's coming along really nicely. I didn't realize that you didn't have anyone else with whom you could work, so it makes the addition of the Manners Minder even more important. I smiled with the mental image of Major happily chilling out on his rug, watching the MM out of the corner of his eye. Not having anyone to train with made a lot of the work I needed to do with him really challenging. Reaching back to treat while driving is kind of dangerous and once he got to the point where he needed to be covered it just became impossible. For treats I mostly use his daily meals but if I use treats they are never bigger than my pinky fingernail even though he's a 75 lb dog. He's also super motivated by smelly/birdy things so his emergency recall was taught with a dried pigeon wing I found on the beach and I just ordered him a tug wrapped in real rabbit fur to use a reward. We're working on LAT too because Major has decided certain dogs are Bad Dogs. The Control Unleashed book really doesn't do that great of a job of explaining how to teach it and I've yet to see a good video about it. We're working on just looking at a neutral object now and not trying to touch it. He really likes touching things.
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Feb 2, 2011 17:31
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Rixatrix posted:Do you have the CU DVD? On the seminar DVD they taught it with a stuffed animal. Leslie had it behind her back, then showed it to the dog and C&T for looking at it, then hiding it again behind her back before the dog was done with the treat. She was standing, so I guess that'll make it easier for the dog not to touch it. I don't have the dvd, just the book. I've been using a piece of paper with an x on it in a similar way. I put him on his mat so he knows he shouldn't be moving off to touch things. The book says if you use an X (she suggested tape on a wall) that then you can put a tape X on other things to generalize but I don't know of any dogs that would put up with me taping Xs to them. Maybe start with a neutral dog and have them look at that? You have two so maybe you can start getting them to look at each other then build up to different dogs?
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Feb 2, 2011 18:11
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You folks dealing with SA might be interested in this book Patricia McConnell mentioned in her blog this week, Don't Leave Me! (what is it with dog books and exclamation points?). Its supposed to be really thorough about going through all kinds of treatment options like DAP and anxiety wraps but she says it should emphasize CCing things like picking up your keys or putting on your shoes more. I know I'm always looking for new reading material so I thought some of you might want to look into it.
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Feb 2, 2011 19:26
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Major and my homework for this last log session (we have phone interviews with the behaviorist every two weeks) was to see how he did without his DAP collar on. I've done a lot of behavior mod stuff so it was important to see which parts of our work are helping. I needed to give him a bath anyway so off it went and I promptly forgot about it. The next day I thought I was going to have to strangle him. He was driving me nuts! He was leaping at the windows inside, barking at everything, pacing, panting heavily, and generally being a trainwreck. The collar was off for less than 24 hours and I'm not entirely sure how I managed to live with Major before. I promptly ordered DAP spray and a diffuser after that. Today I forgot his morning L-theanine pill and had the same thing happen. Eventually he will be able to be off medications and things but we are not there yet. In better news we got the greenlight to move the car this session! We are moving up to 20 minutes in the car not moving or <5 minutes in the car moving. I'm hoping by the time Major needs his rabies shot and physical next month we will be ok driving to the vet and back without screaming from either of us.
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Feb 8, 2011 22:52
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Kiri koli posted:Wow, that's amazing that it is making such a big difference. But at least you know its working! Congrats on getting to moving the car! I actually use a NurtureCALM collar which lasts 60 days and doesn't stop working just because it gets slightly moist like the official DAP collars. You can stick it in a plastic bag when you aren't using it to make it last longer but Major does wear it all the time or else he wakes me up repeatedly at night whining at nothing. I bought it from my behaviorist but its cheaper from Amazon so I'm going that route this time. Levitate the collar has dog appeasing pheromone, which is secreted by lactating bitches and has a calming effect on a lot of dogs. If you look through my past posts in this thread you can see what all I have done to work on Major's travel anxiety. Sadly there aren't any books about dealing with it but you really need to associate the car with happy fun times. A good way to start is just to hang out in your car and give the dog something awesome to work on like a stuffed kong or bully stick. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Feb 9, 2011 |
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Feb 9, 2011 01:31
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Ginny Field posted:My question is... how badly did this set us back? She's gone three months without ever getting a scrap of food from the table, and then last night she hit the jackpot. Are we going to be starting over at square one with the barking and begging? Is there something better we should be doing to curb this behavior other than ignoring it? Ignoring it will work but its going to take a really long time. What I've done instead is teach my dog that if I'm doing something food related that he needs to be on a mat away from the table/kitchen counters. First I taught him that the mat was an awesome place to be and how to go there on cue (here's a kikopup video explaining that). Then while I was eating he would get lots of awesome rewards for standing on the mat instead of standing with his nose on my plate. Eventually I raised criteria to having his head down and relaxing instead of fixating on my food. After a month or so of practice now he'll often fall asleep on his mat during meals.
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Feb 12, 2011 21:13
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Major update at almost 2 months into work with the behaviorist. Things were a little rocky this month just because it seemed like everything that could go wrong did and me stressing out made my sensitive beast stress out which would stress me out more and it just got ugly. When I realized that him reverting back to pacing and whining non-stop was my fault and that getting mad about it was a stupid thing to do we got a lot better. He's stopped pacing and peeing indoors and generally being a wreck and I've gotten better at realizing when my patience is wearing thin and just sticking him in his crate with a tasty chew and taking a breather. So much of dog training and behavior is training yourself, its amazing. On the travel anxiety front Major is doing great. I didn't get as much practice in as I want because I didn't want to practice on days where he was already visibly stressed out, but we are now up to 20 minutes with the car on not moving or 5 minutes pulling down the driveway then back. I even had to pull back out once to straighten the car and not a peep from the dog. It gets sort of boring just hanging out in the car for 20 minutes but the magic time for dogs seems to be a half an hour so I'm hoping once we get up to that we can focus more on moving. My goal, and I need to talk to the doctor about whether this is realistic or not, is to be able to go to a reactive dog class (at least 1.5 hours away) by the end of the year. Whenever we used to drive places we would end up someplace with dogs and I think he has associated that stress and anxiety with them and I think some controlled interactions would really help him. I've started reading (while sitting in the car) When Pigs Fly by Jane Killion who does agility and obedience with bull terriers and I'm really loving it. It focuses a lot on shaping and Premack work and is focused on dogs that have their own ideas about what they want to do in life. The first exercises are name recognition/focus (I've totally poisoned Major's name so "Nubs" is his special training nickname) and 100 things to do with a box. It will be good for me to work on shaping and Major is pretty terrible at learning with lures because his thought process is just "I follow the cookie/target->I get the cookie" without any thought about what his body is actually doing. Its a fun read too! I've also watched some Dr. Yin videos and have been working on my handling skills and I can really see a difference in Major's focus when I changed my posture and where I kept my hands. Sorry about the novel, but I'm really glad I have people to share progress with. It keeps me motivated and most people I know think I'm crazy for putting so much energy into a "broken" dog whose problem isn't even hurting anyone.
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Feb 25, 2011 17:19
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a life less posted:Instant Jellyfish keep up the good work! It's crazy how much of a dog's behaviour is based on how you approach them. It can be hugely frustrating when you're angry and upset and your dog decides to take that opportunity to tell you to go gently caress off. I mostly just use his name all the time and can't seem to stop myself. Its become mostly background noise because I keep saying it even when he clearly isn't paying attention to me or is incapable of listening because he's so focused on hunting something. If I have a nickname that I have to think about (its not something I usually call him) then I'm less likely to spew it out when I ramble to him. Its mostly just a focus cue. It seems like a great class at a place where my behaviorist leads a dogs and pregnant ladies seminar so I know she'll approve. Its only open to 4 dogs at a time and fills up way in advance so I'm going to email them as soon as I get the ok from the dr. about maybe October/November classes. I'm working on CC already but I never know when the local free-range dogs are going to be around and it makes regular training hard. Moving sit is a really good idea and that video is great. Major can sit at a distance but we'll have to work at moving and distraction. Any tips about how to get started?
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Feb 25, 2011 22:31
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