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A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

pseudorandom name posted:

Don't forget that he's burned out any magical ability he once had and is basically as helpless as the next guy against the monsters he's unleashed on the world.

I never got this impression at all, nor do I remember reading it. Where'd you come up with it?

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Velius
Feb 27, 2001

A Nice Boy posted:

I never got this impression at all, nor do I remember reading it. Where'd you come up with it?

There's a point during one of the intervals in the present. The zombie whatever shows up, he tries to set a link to set it on fire or something and nothing happens. Later Chronicler gets jumped in his room by Kvothe's servant/demon friend where he tells him he spread the word to attract someone like him, because Kvothe is burned out, depressed, and basically waiting to die.

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007

My memory is that his immediate instinctive impulse to put the bar fire out is the use of sympathy with a drink he spills on the bar, but it doesn't work and he has to do it the hard way. And then there's the conversation between the Chronicler and Kvothe's fairy servant later. Also, Kvothe's method of dealing with the monsters that show up in the village is to beat them to death with an iron rod instead of something more sensible. (And we know he could kill things with great finality in the past, a big deal was made about the ruined cobblestones in the square where he killed somebody as yet unnamed during his university days. I'm assuming he used naming to kill the royal rear end in a top hat and was expelled for it.)

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.
Huh, my impression was that "burned out and depressed" meant more in a life choices/midlife crisis kind of way. I never got he impression that he didn't have powers, just that he didn't really use them anymore, nor did he want to. He was content to be a washed up, crappy old innkeeper. I thought that was the main reason that Kvothe's servant guy was so irritated...Kvothe was still amazing, but it was basically completely wasted potential. Like an amazing artist working as a laborer or something, and having no desire to paint.

As far as when the zombie thing shows up at the end, I just thought it was because whatever he tried to do failed. I thought it was more the nature of sympathy and of the creature that caused it to fail, not that Kvothe didn't have any power.

dyehead
Nov 28, 2008
Kvothe nodded and stepped through the doorway behind the bar. As soon as he was out of sight, Bast leaned close to Chronicler's ear. "Don't ask him about it," he hissed urgently. "Don't mention it at all."

Chronicler looked puzzled. "What are you talking about?"

"About the bottle. About the sympathy he tried to do."

"So he was trying to light the thing on fire? Why didn't it work? What's-"

Bast tightened his grip, his thumb digging into the hollow beneath Chronicler's collarbone. The scribe gave another startled yelp. "Don't talk about that," Bast hissed in his ear. "Don't ask questions." Holding both the scribe's shoulders, Bast shook him once, like an angry parent with a stubborn child.


So yeah, there you go.

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

dyehead posted:

Kvothe nodded and stepped through the doorway behind the bar. As soon as he was out of sight, Bast leaned close to Chronicler's ear. "Don't ask him about it," he hissed urgently. "Don't mention it at all."

Chronicler looked puzzled. "What are you talking about?"

"About the bottle. About the sympathy he tried to do."

"So he was trying to light the thing on fire? Why didn't it work? What's-"

Bast tightened his grip, his thumb digging into the hollow beneath Chronicler's collarbone. The scribe gave another startled yelp. "Don't talk about that," Bast hissed in his ear. "Don't ask questions." Holding both the scribe's shoulders, Bast shook him once, like an angry parent with a stubborn child.


So yeah, there you go.

Not sure what that explains, but it could easily support either theory. Either that he can't do it, or it just failed. I guess we'll see.

dyehead
Nov 28, 2008

A Nice Boy posted:

Not sure what that explains, but it could easily support either theory. Either that he can't do it, or it just failed. I guess we'll see.

I'm not saying anything either way, just providing the context :)

coffeetable
Feb 5, 2006

TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY
He can still do sympathy on impulse:

"They say she-" Chronicler's words struck in his suddenly dry throat as the room grew unnaturally quiet. Kote stood with his back to the room, a stillness in his body and a terrible silence clenched between his teeth. His right hand, tangled in a clean white cloth, made a slow fist.

Eight inches away, a bottle shattered. The smell of strawberries filled the air alongside the sound of splintering glass.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post

Octoduck posted:

I had fun reading this fantasy novel.

Why do people say this like it somehow invalidates criticism? Here's a hint: when someone is talking about how good a book is, the fact that you or anyone else liked or disliked it doesn't matter at all. I liked this book too but all of that guy's criticisms were spot on.

mabbott74
Mar 13, 2006

Chaglby posted:

I didn't say I hated the entire book, I just don't really care to read it at this point. My disdain is clearly based on more than the first few pages. Also, I tend to not pick up a series when it is just starting, especially from an unknown author. So far, this seems like a pretty mediocre one to me. The last series I started at the beginning was Lynch's, and look where that has gotten me. I won't read A Song of Ice and Fire for the same reason, even though I'm pretty sure I'd like it. Bottom line is, I've got a long list of books to read and this one is not towards the front.

Anyway, if another book or 2 comes out (I don't know how long the series is planned to be, or if its length is planned at all) and it seems interesting at that point then I'll give it a shot. Why do people get so butthurt when other people don't like something that they do? I'm just putting my 2 cents into the discussion. I sincerely was asking why anyone would read what I feel like is some washed up old guy bragging about his awesomeness in youth for several hundred pages. The other guys that quoted me added to the discussion, you did not.

I was still slightly interested in trying the book at some point even after the intro turned me off until I read the thread a while back in which someone stated the book is much better when you read it in the voice of Zapp Brannigan, which someone mentioned already.

Obviously people have a problem with you hating the book without even reading it. If you can't figure that out, then your opinion should be ignored.

You remind me of a friend of mine who hates things just because they are popular and other people rave about it.

About the book. After reading the book I had to go back and confirm that this is Pat's first novel. I have read a quite a few author-first novels and this one is several steps above those. His grasp of the English language astounds me as I found myself using the kindle dictionary quite often.

I don't know why people have a problem with Kvothe being so good at everything. He is known by many and there is a reason why. You don't get famous by being an idiot who is mediocre at best in 3 or 4 things. I mean, who wants to read a book about some guy who struggles through life never amounting to anything? If there were a huge audience for that kind of thing, then I would write and autobiography and make millions. Seems some people can't just read a book and enjoy it for being a work of fiction that has no relevance to real life.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post

mabbott74 posted:

I don't know why people have a problem with Kvothe being so good at everything. He is known by many and there is a reason why. You don't get famous by being an idiot who is mediocre at best in 3 or 4 things. I mean, who wants to read a book about some guy who struggles through life never amounting to anything? If there were a huge audience for that kind of thing, then I would write and autobiography and make millions. Seems some people can't just read a book and enjoy it for being a work of fiction that has no relevance to real life.

Kvoth isn't good at stuff in a heroic way. He's good at stuff in a mary sue no one can ever be better than me at anything way. His challenges basically amount to other people being jealous because they don't measure up, or other people not recognizing his innate brilliance and virtue. If you can't understand why people have a problem with that then that's on you. Just accept that not everyone loves a smug hero for whom everything is a cakewalk.

It's interesting that you say that you could hardly believe that this was Rothfuss' first novel. For me it was the opposite. I liked the book, and wherever I ran into the major flaws (in particular the awful way Kvothe relates to women) I said to myself "this is a first novel, it's OK that he makes missteps." If this was book 10 of the Kvoth trilogy or whatever I'd be a lot less forgiving.

mabbott74
Mar 13, 2006

Liesmith posted:

Kvoth isn't good at stuff in a heroic way. He's good at stuff in a mary sue no one can ever be better than me at anything way. His challenges basically amount to other people being jealous because they don't measure up, or other people not recognizing his innate brilliance and virtue. If you can't understand why people have a problem with that then that's on you. Just accept that not everyone loves a smug hero for whom everything is a cakewalk.

It's interesting that you say that you could hardly believe that this was Rothfuss' first novel. For me it was the opposite. I liked the book, and wherever I ran into the major flaws (in particular the awful way Kvothe relates to women) I said to myself "this is a first novel, it's OK that he makes missteps." If this was book 10 of the Kvoth trilogy or whatever I'd be a lot less forgiving.


Yes, and yet people forget that it is a biographical of a guy who grew up in a family of actors and performers.

Also, can you enlighten me, perhaps an example or two, on what you mean by the "awful way Kvothe relates to women?"

Also, book 10 of a trilogy? ;p

Dr Scoofles
Dec 6, 2004

mabbott74 posted:

Yes, and yet people forget that it is a biographical of a guy who grew up in a family of actors and performers.

Also, can you enlighten me, perhaps an example or two, on what you mean by the "awful way Kvothe relates to women?"

Also, book 10 of a trilogy? ;p

I can't answer for Liesmith, but for me his relations to women amount to 'Oh devine feminine goddess how I worship three. Your eyes are like stars, your smile is like the stars, your skin is milky white like the stars etc etc... No women can compare to thine mystical beauty, let me worship at the shrine that is your feet.' and so on.

Even readers of Mills and Boon don't have to put up with that schmultz.

Edit - I still like the book, but I can see why it irritates folk.

Dr Scoofles fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Nov 20, 2010

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post

mabbott74 posted:

Yes, and yet people forget that it is a biographical of a guy who grew up in a family of actors and performers.

Also, can you enlighten me, perhaps an example or two, on what you mean by the "awful way Kvothe relates to women?"

Also, book 10 of a trilogy? ;p

I can't point to specific pages, but when he's dalking about Denna/Diana/Dean whatever her name is to his buddy, and his buddy is all "she a bitch" his response is goony as gently caress. "Yes, she is cruel, like a cruel wind, a force of nature that cannot be controlled. And she's also a shy deer, you can't make any sudden movements or she will be startled and run away. That's why I'm hanging around while she bangs other dudes, creeping slowly closer until one day we will be lovers instead of friends." There is even a paragraph where he revels in the fact that he's superior to all her lovers because they don't truly understand her like he does, and they come and go while he's always there for her.

Also when he compares her to six different kinds of flower. She's not a shy deer, she's not a flower, she's a human being and maybe treating her like one is a good idea. I mean OK his character is very young and probably a lot of us didn't realize that attractive women were actual human beings when we were fourteen years old. But the narrator is like 26 and he's still just as bad.

I mean goddamn this guy is a creep all around. I like the book anyway but it really is something that I have to ignore because it is so egregious.

EDIT: also every fantasy series is a trilogy no matter how many books there are in it. I don't make the rules.

Liesmith fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Nov 20, 2010

anathenema
Apr 8, 2009

mabbott74 posted:

I don't know why people have a problem with Kvothe being so good at everything. He is known by many and there is a reason why. You don't get famous by being an idiot who is mediocre at best in 3 or 4 things. I mean, who wants to read a book about some guy who struggles through life never amounting to anything? If there were a huge audience for that kind of thing, then I would write and autobiography and make millions. Seems some people can't just read a book and enjoy it for being a work of fiction that has no relevance to real life.

I take some issue with this.

All fiction has relevance to real life. Not always a lot, not always clearly, but it's there. In fact, I think the fact that a lot of people are suspecting that Kvothe is actually a depressed burnout who just happens to be a talented liar is proof enough of that. They are relating to the book in a way that's not explicitly direct, thus suggesting it has at least enough relevance to them to look beyond the initial pages.

Which is also what a lot of people are complaining about. They see it as having no relevance to real life. I can't help but agree that Kvothe just sort of gets everything his way with no real problems or conflicts. It'd be one thing if he was good at everything and had to triumph over adversity to get it, but that doesn't really seem to be the case in a lot of the story. It winds up being an awesome guy being awesome with no one trying to stop him except the stupid and ugly. If that were the case, then it would have no relevance, because no one has that problem.

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

anathenema posted:



Which is also what a lot of people are complaining about. They see it as having no relevance to real life. I can't help but agree that Kvothe just sort of gets everything his way with no real problems or conflicts. It'd be one thing if he was good at everything and had to triumph over adversity to get it, but that doesn't really seem to be the case in a lot of the story. It winds up being an awesome guy being awesome with no one trying to stop him except the stupid and ugly. If that were the case, then it would have no relevance, because no one has that problem.

I dunno, I think he goes through some pretty hard poo poo, especially at the beginning when he's homeless. I just think that the fact that it's being narrated by him in the future takes some of the danger and suspense out of it, as we know that no matter what happens, he's going to survive to become this badass wizard. If he'd written the same story as a third person at the time it was happening, I think it would have felt a lot less "easy" for his character.

P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007

A Nice Boy posted:

I dunno, I think he goes through some pretty hard poo poo, especially at the beginning when he's homeless. I just think that the fact that it's being narrated by him in the future takes some of the danger and suspense out of it, as we know that no matter what happens, he's going to survive to become this badass wizard. If he'd written the same story as a third person at the time it was happening, I think it would have felt a lot less "easy" for his character.

Right, but if it was in the third person Kvothe would be an absolutely insufferable Mary Sue. For me, at least, the first person narration mitigated that.

anathenema
Apr 8, 2009

A Nice Boy posted:

I dunno, I think he goes through some pretty hard poo poo, especially at the beginning when he's homeless. I just think that the fact that it's being narrated by him in the future takes some of the danger and suspense out of it, as we know that no matter what happens, he's going to survive to become this badass wizard. If he'd written the same story as a third person at the time it was happening, I think it would have felt a lot less "easy" for his character.

It wasn't that, really. I knew he was going to survive, true, but I didn't know how. I was a little disappointed that the answer was "easily and without any threat whatsoever."

Melche
Apr 29, 2009

A Nice Boy posted:

I dunno, I think he goes through some pretty hard poo poo, especially at the beginning when he's homeless. I just think that the fact that it's being narrated by him in the future takes some of the danger and suspense out of it, as we know that no matter what happens, he's going to survive to become this badass wizard.

Right, and what happens? He snaps out of it, then goes and totally fleeces some pawnbroker guy for his book, because his social skills haven't been slightly eroded by avoiding contact with any human being for years. Picks up an instrument and makes complete strangers break down in tears, because he's not out of practice musically after several years. Goes to university, takes over his first class and shows up the mean teacher because he's still way ahead of everyone five years older than him..

That's what the dude means by no conflict. It's not because you know he'll survive, it's because there's a lot of "oh the terrible hardships I went through" and "the tragedy took a terrible toll on me" but no actual consequences.


EDIT: which is why we call him a Mary Sue, not just because he's good at everything. A couple of people in this thread keep making that point, and people keep coming back with "why can't you accept him being good at everything he's supposed to be and he's exaggerating anyway". We know.

Melche fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Nov 21, 2010

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.
Huh, I see your point. Though, I still enjoyed the book. Here's hoping book 2 is a hell of a lot more harsh.

Test Pattern
Dec 20, 2007

Keep scrolling, clod!
I think it's pretty obvious that young Kvothe was an unlikable weirdo with some talent but not as much as is portrayed, and narrator-Kvothe is a lying burnout trying to make himself look good in both the social and ethical senses.

SaviourX
Sep 30, 2003

The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt.

The worldbuilding is p cool, for the little bits of it that get handed out. But coupled with little characterization (unless you really count the meta-fiction that may or may not play out), it's as most of you say--weak, thematically, even if the prose flows well.

Then again, most novels should be combining plot and character, and with fantasy people mostly want window-dressing and firebally set-pieces, which is unfortunate, but I can see how this one is trying to bridge the gap between both areas.

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008

Liesmith posted:

I can't point to specific pages, but when he's dalking about Denna/Diana/Dean whatever her name is to his buddy, and his buddy is all "she a bitch" his response is goony as gently caress. "Yes, she is cruel, like a cruel wind, a force of nature that cannot be controlled. And she's also a shy deer, you can't make any sudden movements or she will be startled and run away. That's why I'm hanging around while she bangs other dudes, creeping slowly closer until one day we will be lovers instead of friends." There is even a paragraph where he revels in the fact that he's superior to all her lovers because they don't truly understand her like he does, and they come and go while he's always there for her.

Also when he compares her to six different kinds of flower. She's not a shy deer, she's not a flower, she's a human being and maybe treating her like one is a good idea. I mean OK his character is very young and probably a lot of us didn't realize that attractive women were actual human beings when we were fourteen years old. But the narrator is like 26 and he's still just as bad.

I mean goddamn this guy is a creep all around. I like the book anyway but it really is something that I have to ignore because it is so egregious.

This happens all the time in novels. Mr. Darcy is a complete creep by those standards but Pride and Prejudice is considered one of the best examples of a romance novel in literature. What's acceptable, romantic behavior for fictional characters is creepy in real life only because the real life people can't tell the difference between reality and fiction.

I really liked the book. Like others, I don't think it would have been much in the third person, but the first person definitely added a lot.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post

HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

This happens all the time in novels. Mr. Darcy is a complete creep by those standards but Pride and Prejudice is considered one of the best examples of a romance novel in literature. What's acceptable, romantic behavior for fictional characters is creepy in real life only because the real life people can't tell the difference between reality and fiction.

I really liked the book. Like others, I don't think it would have been much in the third person, but the first person definitely added a lot.

Ahahaha no. I'm amazed you are comparing the two books. Darcy isn't a creep, he's an overprivileged rear end in a top hat who thinks he can buy anything he wants. His behavior is perfectly acceptable because he's rich as a motherfucker and explicitly doesn't want to bang Elizabeth. If Darcy pretended to want to be Elizabeth's friend when he actually wanted to gently caress her, that would be creepy. Instead he's rude to her at a dance, then falls in love with her because he mistakenly believes she isn't impressed with money, and asks her to marry him. He doesn't sneak around, he's totally straightforward.

Also the reason that Darcy is an rear end in a top hat is because Austen intentionally wrote him that way. Pride and Prejudice is about people making mistaken assumptions about themselves and one another, then reevaluating (usually into yet another mistaken assumption). It's a brilliant character study and is one of the greatest novels ever written in the English language. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure Kvothe is a creepo because Patrick Rothfuss doesn't really know how to treat women.

Granted, I can't be sure that's true. I've never met the guy so I'm basing that assumption on the stuff he has written and the fact that he looks like this

Liesmith fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Nov 22, 2010

Hughmoris
Apr 21, 2007
Let's go to the abyss!

Liesmith posted:



Is it a requirement for fantasy writers to look like this? That looks like GRRM 30 years ago.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?
Grimey Drawer
I kinda agree with the above listed reasons on why it didn't blow my skirt up.

The way it was written, it just sort of fell into a "boy, nothing will happen to this guy" feeling. The whole way that Rothfuss did the backstory let you know that Kvothe wouldn't be in any real danger, so the rest of the story is just some sort of ego masturbation.

I just came away with the feeling that I had read this book written by the kid in grade school where his uncle worked for nintendo and had a special super mario edition that had levels only he could play and he couldn't show you cause then his uncle would get fired, and his first car was a mustang but it's totally in the shop right now, and he totally scored with that chick and shes just playing it cool. He's gotten more rear end than a toilet seat regardless of never being seen within 400 yards of something female.

Basically I was just let down by the book. It had a good premise, but the way it was handled was just kinda lame.

If the second book is less "AND THEN I DID THIS OTHER AWESOME THING, TOTALLY, AND THEN LIKE, HER BOOBS CAME OUT OF HER SHIRT AND I WAS ALL LIKE 'YEA BABY! PASS ME MY BOOMSTICK!' AND THEN I NINJAKICKED THE poo poo OUT OF THE KING AND WAS ALL LIKE 'LOOKS LIKE YOU JUST GOT A TASTE OF BOOT JUSTICE' AND THEN WE TOTALLY HAD THE SEX. TWICE. WITH HER SISTER JOINING IN ON THE SECOND ROUND. :smug: " I will give it a shot, but not until I read some reviews on it first.

Some books I like, some books I don't. This just fell into the don't section.

mabbott74
Mar 13, 2006

anathenema posted:

I take some issue with this.

All fiction has relevance to real life. Not always a lot, not always clearly, but it's there. In fact, I think the fact that a lot of people are suspecting that Kvothe is actually a depressed burnout who just happens to be a talented liar is proof enough of that. They are relating to the book in a way that's not explicitly direct, thus suggesting it has at least enough relevance to them to look beyond the initial pages.

Which is also what a lot of people are complaining about. They see it as having no relevance to real life. I can't help but agree that Kvothe just sort of gets everything his way with no real problems or conflicts. It'd be one thing if he was good at everything and had to triumph over adversity to get it, but that doesn't really seem to be the case in a lot of the story. It winds up being an awesome guy being awesome with no one trying to stop him except the stupid and ugly. If that were the case, then it would have no relevance, because no one has that problem.

And my issue is that everyone forgets that this is a book that is a biographical. Not only a biographical, but one of a person who was raised by actor/entertainers. Of course the people he hated are going to be represented as stupid and ugly. Of course he is going to be 10x smarter than anyone around him. It's his perspective!

And his obsurd view of women? He is a 15 year old virgin. I know at that age I put women on a pedistal and thought of them as Gods.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post

mabbott74 posted:

And my issue is that everyone forgets that this is a book that is a biographical. Not only a biographical, but one of a person who was raised by actor/entertainers. Of course the people he hated are going to be represented as stupid and ugly. Of course he is going to be 10x smarter than anyone around him. It's his perspective!

And his obsurd view of women? He is a 15 year old virgin. I know at that age I put women on a pedistal and thought of them as Gods.

he's not though, he's a 26 year old. If I told a story about myself when I was 14, and I was already editing it to make myself look good, I'd probably leave out the lovely attitude towards women too.

Melche
Apr 29, 2009

Melche posted:

EDIT: which is why we call him a Mary Sue, not just because he's good at everything. A couple of people in this thread keep making that point, and people keep coming back with "why can't you accept him being good at everything he's supposed to be and he's exaggerating anyway". We know.


mabbott74 posted:

And my issue is that everyone forgets that this is a book that is a biographical. Not only a biographical, but one of a person who was raised by actor/entertainers. Of course the people he hated are going to be represented as stupid and ugly. Of course he is going to be 10x smarter than anyone around him. It's his perspective!

Dude... we really aren't forgetting that. We know. Once again, the problem isn't that he's too smart, it's that the book completely lacks characterisation or drama. I honestly wonder what people think is going to happen in the next book that would make this one good. Someone turning up from his past and saying "that's not how it went, you only came third in that class" wouldn't make it good. Him failing at something important wouldn't make it good, unless it actually led to some character development.

Seriously, what do you think? The first line of book 2 is gonna go hahaha! The last book was intentionally bad, here's the actual character development he never mentioned because he was too busy making himself look good! Unreliable narrators can be awesome, and this book could be really cool if you were gradually figuring out what a mess he was through his side of the story. But no one's really getting anything like that, you're just saying he's obviously exaggarating, the payoff will probably be in the next book. It would take something pretty loving special in the next book to basically justify this one being intentionally bad.

Not to mention the guys he's telling his story to tearing up when he talks about Denna and making GBS threads themselves when he gets pissed off and his eyes flash with rage or what-the-gently caress-ever give the impression he's depressingly serious about the whole thing.

Bhaal
Jul 13, 2001
I ain't going down alone
Dr. Infant, MD
I think his big mistake was a lack of supporting roles. I get that this book is 99% an autobiographical dictation, and therefore of course the main focus is going to be on that guy and the perspective clearly fixed on him, but from a story perspective he's sort of backed himself into a corner as far as who does what, and what happens to whom. Almost 100% of any conflict we come across is directed at Kvoth or affects him. All the conflict resolution involves him (and quite often involves him exclusively). Factor in that he's the ONE PERSON that we already know the outcome for (broadly speaking) and it makes the storytelling a little tiresome. As the above people are saying, it becomes a very conceited plot and even though there's a gain of salt in there about him being the one giving the story, the book in general is making an all-in investment on that conceited plot; there was almost nothing else going on.

For anyone who's read it, I'm reminded of Kellhus from the Prince of Nothing trilogy by R Scott Bakker. There are some differences, ie. Kellhus is much more of an ambivalent hero/villain and all around emotionless manipulative dickhead whom the reader winds up disliking (on purpose by the author). But in some other respects he is very similar to Kvothe, as in he is absolutely peerless when it comes to just about every aspect of fantasy novel main character traits that you could care to come up with. I'll very broadly summarize the plot but put it in spoilers anyway: He starts out as a nobody and through the books rises to lead nations and control armies, which feels like a similar path Kvothe is taking, although not point-for-point the same.

In that trilogy, however, Kellhus is established as the kind of person he is, and then after that he is left to his own devices and the book spends only a proportional amount of time following him, with the rest being spent on other characters who are very influential and important, but in terms of world events are considerably more minor compared to Kellhus. While he's the big central character to the plot, the reader has an equal if not greater understanding of less impactful characters like Cnaiur and Achamian.

As of now, there's really not that much strength behind supporting characters in The Name of the Wind. In story mode, the moneylender girl has some color, his schoolmates too but they're all sort of amorphous and interchangable. his :swoon: MY GIRLFRIEND :swoon: is hard to get to know because every time she comes up he star--:swoon: MY GIRLFRIEND :swoon:. In current events things look a little better, and I hope to god the next book focuses way more on what's going on there.

Ok this is getting long but anyway yes the first book has problems and in my mind it's largely due to a lack of characters there to support the big hero.

Bhaal fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 22, 2010

Melche
Apr 29, 2009
I quite liked the Prince of Nothing, so I wanna say what I think is the key difference.

Kellhus isn't the protagonist. He's not really a character at all, because he's barely human. What he is, narratively, is the Terminator (except not explicitly evil). You get some first-person poo poo from him for the same reason the beginning of the Terminator films follow the robot around - to establish what an unstoppable motherfucker it is, and how hosed everyone else is. The actual story is how the real characters deal with this poo poo.

That's what Kellhus is. The other guys aren't supporting cast, they're the main characters (even though they have less effect on main events).

Personally I think he's better than Kvothe, because he has a better backstory than "basically just a genius" and more interesting goals than "wants revenge, no rush". But the point is, if he was actually the main character, the books would suck. Because however cool the stuff going down was, you'd see it through the eyes of a complete non-character. It would be like the film following the T-1000 around looking for the Connors for the entire time, instead of following them around knowing it's just behind them, seeing how they deal with that, and have it rock up in a truck and tear poo poo up now and again.

So yeah, there's two examples of how to use a super-perfect guy properly. Like you said, if you want him there, get your characterisation in elsewhere (or actually make him interesting despite being a genius, like House or someone)

dag01
Mar 9, 2004
for you to be inside of me is a delightful concept

Liesmith posted:

he's not though, he's a 26 year old. If I told a story about myself when I was 14, and I was already editing it to make myself look good, I'd probably leave out the lovely attitude towards women too.

Where does it say how old Kvothe is in the present day?

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post
OK you got me it isn't that specific but it starts out in the intro saying that he's over 30 and then when he perks up a little it says that he's much younger than that he's just bowed by the weight of the world.

Khatib
Nov 12, 2007

SaviourX posted:

The worldbuilding is p cool, for the little bits of it that get handed out. But coupled with little characterization (unless you really count the meta-fiction that may or may not play out), it's as most of you say--weak, thematically, even if the prose flows well.


See, I agree with this in general, but I still found it to be an entertaining book, and it's all the hints that the story is about to turn very dark in the near future that has me excited to continue the series. I think the first book was a kind of set up of a cliched fantasy narrative, but sometime in the next book, all of it is going to get flipped over and turned dark and a little depressing. At least that's my big hope. If it doesn't... well, it should at least be entertaining enough, if not a great plot. Kind of the novel version of a popcorn flick, if you will.

SaviourX
Sep 30, 2003

The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt.

And now that I've thought more on it (and this is endemic of SFF in the past decade or so, thanks Jordan!), book series nowadays break the cardinal storytelling rule of 'start your story as close to the end as reasonably possible'.

Which makes Rothfuss (and others) extremely guilty of padding. "You want to know my rad story. Okay. But first, the entire history of my main guy, heh."

I mean, it's great if you have nothing else to read, but there's literally millions of books out there; it'd be great if authors condensed their thousands of pages of epics down to one novel and then go onto something else, thanks.

Phummus
Aug 4, 2006

If I get ten spare bucks, it's going for a 30-pack of Schlitz.

SaviourX posted:

And now that I've thought more on it (and this is endemic of SFF in the past decade or so, thanks Jordan!), book series nowadays break the cardinal storytelling rule of 'start your story as close to the end as reasonably possible'.

Which makes Rothfuss (and others) extremely guilty of padding. "You want to know my rad story. Okay. But first, the entire history of my main guy, heh."

I mean, it's great if you have nothing else to read, but there's literally millions of books out there; it'd be great if authors condensed their thousands of pages of epics down to one novel and then go onto something else, thanks.

I can see that in Rothfuss' series, but I wonder where the line to that is drawn. For instance, the Malazan books are nowhere near where they started out, but everything has contributed in one way or another to the story. There are probably a few places where you could argue that the story could've started closer to the end, but I don't see that the series suffers for it.

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

SaviourX posted:

And now that I've thought more on it (and this is endemic of SFF in the past decade or so, thanks Jordan!), book series nowadays break the cardinal storytelling rule of 'start your story as close to the end as reasonably possible'.

Which makes Rothfuss (and others) extremely guilty of padding. "You want to know my rad story. Okay. But first, the entire history of my main guy, heh."

I mean, it's great if you have nothing else to read, but there's literally millions of books out there; it'd be great if authors condensed their thousands of pages of epics down to one novel and then go onto something else, thanks.

To be honest, this is exactly why I read epic fantasy. As long as it's a well constructed, interesting world, I WANT to spend thousands and thousands of pages there. The Martins and the Eriksons and the Rothfuss's are the kinds of series that I can get lost in for a few months.

I know the rule you're talking about works for some stuff, but epic fantasy is so much about insane worldbuilding as well as storytelling that I'm not sure it applies as much. Sci fi and fantasy are two very extreme settings as far as storytelling goes, as opposed to romance/crime novels/whatever. There are rules you need to establish that are just givens when you're reading something set in a more mundane place.

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.
Name of the Wind was a very mixed bag for me, some parts were excellent fantasy and others dragged to no end. Overall for a debut novel I think it shows enormous potential.

The Good: this book can be very funny/cynical when it tries to be, and I found myself laughing out loud on several occasions. The university, its structure, and the masters who oversee it were all well defined and enjoyable. I really liked the way the author gave logical "rules" to magic. The way sympathy was described as a sort of thermodynamics based efficiency of energy transfer was very intelligent, and went beyond the usual "say a magic word", or "a wizard did it" that most fantasy seems to fall back on. Finally I liked Kvothe's non-spoony bard background.

The Bad: The extended section where Kvothe lived on the streets were very poorly handled. He goes from a child prodigy, to social outcast for a couple years, then almost overnight returns to super genius state with almost zero long term consequences beyond his poverty. His super apptitude for everything wears thin after a while, for example why couldn't there be a couple studies Kvothe just isn't all that great at, or certain musical forms he actually has to work at to master? Finally the poverty thing gets old after a while. Since Kvothe is a such a master prodigy at everything he puts his mind to shouldn't he be able to dream up some get rich quick scheme?

The Ugly: Romance. Denna seems such an incredibly bland character, and Kvothe so socially akward these scenes drag horribly for me. Every one of their interactions seems scripted: Denna appears suddenly, they banter, Kvothe misses several blatant oportunities to do anything romantic with her, Denna vanishes/hooks up with a new temporary man, Kvothe longs creepily about how perfect she is. Have them do something!! Have Denna do something that makes us understand why Kvothe is so crazy about her! Make Kvothe act more like the 16 year old male that he is (hint: he should be thinking about sex non-stop).

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.

keiran_helcyan posted:


The Ugly: Romance. Denna seems such an incredibly bland character, and Kvothe so socially akward these scenes drag horribly for me. Every one of their interactions seems scripted: Denna appears suddenly, they banter, Kvothe misses several blatant oportunities to do anything romantic with her, Denna vanishes/hooks up with a new temporary man, Kvothe longs creepily about how perfect she is. Have them do something!! Have Denna do something that makes us understand why Kvothe is so crazy about her! Make Kvothe act more like the 16 year old male that he is (hint: he should be thinking about sex non-stop).

I completely agree that his unreasonable obsession with Denna is retarded. The parts where he has opportunities with someone else like the chick he saves, and then he's in a room with her and she's barely covered by a sheet and she has an incredible body...Yeah, any teenage boy would be like "noooo, must save myself for unattainable bitch?" gently caress that...He'd be going for it and consequences be damned. Aspects like that of Kvothe's personality put me off him way more than his super abilities at everything he tries.

I found all of his other female friends far more interesting then Denna, and that's the real weakness of the book...If you want us to believe that Kvothe is insanely obsessed with this girl, you have to make us feel that way on some level, too. The part where they finally get close and cuddle, and they're so close to something happening, why did that scene feel bland to me? Oh, because I could give a poo poo about her. I found the aforementioned scene with whats her name in the sheet far more pulse racingly, hope this leads up to something interesting than I did the scenes with Denna in the forest.

If you're going to throw in romance, at least make us give a poo poo about it.

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Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.
Thought I'd check out Rothfuss' blog to see if he had any info on the upcoming novel and of course the top post was a detailed 3 page argument on the evils of circumcision. He truly is an alpha internet nerd.

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