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Karnegal posted:We're at what, 2500 pages of book at this point? What are people hoping for with the unreliable narrator thing? If we get to 3500 and we get a "haha, that was all bullshit" are people going to be happy? They shouldn't because that's a godawful pay off.  The alternative was just too horrible. I also think that the "unreliable narrator" suggestion is giving the author far too much credit, from what I've seen of him elsewhere I really don't give it much weight. And anyway, whether that's what he's going for or not is irrelevant if he does it in a way where it brings nothing to the story. Just writing a dicky character isn't enough to make it all cool and subversive.
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Aug 1, 2014 12:33
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the JJ posted:Like there's a lot of poo poo to criticize, the main character being a boring Sue who is perfect in every way isn't one of them. And while 'the main character seems like a dumbass' is a perfectly fair statement, I don[t think that makes it a bad story because I generally dislike stories about perfect Sues. See, that's what I don't get about this whole arguing back and forth about him being an unreliable narrator or not. The main character being a boring Sue who is perfect in every way is definitely something to criticise! It doesn't matter if it's done on purpose because "ooh unreliable narrator", if it's still absolutely horrible to read all that poo poo about how great he is at sexing the sex goddess or becoming a ninja or every amazing thing he does, then what's the point? At some point you have to look at it and think, okay even if it is an unreliable narrator what difference is it making? If he lied about the whole thing then why the hell did we have to read all that? Why didn't he just make an actual interesting main character?
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Aug 5, 2014 23:42
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Chichevache posted:Some people have different views and opinions than you do about what is interesting or not. Yeah, that's true. I guess I just prefer main characters who I can actually get invested in. It's hard to read a book when you don't care about what's going to happen to him or his love interest. I really liked some of the minor characters though, it's a shame they weren't in there more. I see a lot of people defending it by pointing out that he's a failure in the "the present", but I dunno, I feel like the story of him getting to that point would have to be really good to make up for the rest of the story so far. (Yes, this is just my opinion. Some people like mary sue characters and that's perfectly fine!)
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Aug 6, 2014 12:49
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Rythian posted:I don't know if this has been linked before, I've been reading this thread for a while now and I don't remember seeing it, but here's a good article on Kvothe's Mary Sue-ness: http://cboye.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/kvothe-a-mary-sue-case-study/ It's worth reading. And this was written before the sex goddess and double sex ninja escapades with inherent excuse for Kvothe not having to worry about responsibility for pregnancy. I didn't read through all of that article but so far it sums up my impression of the books quite well. I'd completely forgotten about one of those points; the thing that stood out to me the most when I read the books was that nothing bad ever actually happens to him. The only really bad thing is his parents dying and that's for the sake of a plot point. Pretty much everything else he recovers from quickly or uses to his advantage. (It's been a while since I read them, so I can't remember specific examples, that was just what I remember my thoughts being right after I did read it)
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Aug 7, 2014 00:44
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Maud Moonshine posted:Would that necessarily have been better? More realistic, maybe, but I personally don't think I would have enjoyed reading it. Cringe humour doesn't really work in a written medium so it would just have been... cringey. I think a real Mary Sue would have got up and given a class which showed Hemme that he knew his stuff and would have resulted in Hemme adoring him and an immediate promotion to a more difficult class. That would have been really bad writing. At least in the text as it stands Kvothe got in trouble for what he did, and that's what drove the story forward. Yeah, isn't that the point though? Everyone loves him except for the stereotypical baddies that just dislike him.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:36
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Karnegal posted:Mary Sues aren't utterly perfect. They wouldn't work at all even in fan fiction if they were because then they're just omnipotent dieties. What they are, are characters that have a ridiculously long list of talents -many of which are attained through native aptitude. If they do have to work at something they usually achieve it much faster than normal because of their special nature. They pretty much always have whatever skills they need in a given situation. So, for example, if they're stranded in the woods, either they have some master survival skills or they intuitively know what to do (sound like someone we know?). Essentially, the more special and singular your character is, the more likely that they're a Mary Sue. The problem is amplified when they lack real credible weaknesses. Kvothe's weaknesses are being bad with women (demonstrably untrue from the get go) and he's an arrogant poo poo (which never gets him in real lasting trouble). Sure, maybe we'll see him catch some poo poo in book 3, but that's a long way to go with no character development. Yeah, I agree with this. I don't see how any one could try to claim that he isn't a Mary Sue, because he's pretty much a textbook definition of the term. There is no way someone could write a character so obviously Sue-ish and not realise what they've done, especially not someone who's been on the internet before in their lifetime. And I'm sure any basic writing training will tell you about how important character flaws are. That's the main thing that kept me hopeful when I was reading the books, but after a certain amount of time (two books) with absolutely no change to this (just getting worse, in fact) then what is that change worth at this stage? It would have to be so good that it goes back and redeems the other two books. Look at it this way, if you were going to make the most over-the-top mocking Mary Sue, which stereotypical boxes would you tick off? I'd want him to look special, let's go stunningly red hair. And green eyes, they go so well together! But I don't know which shade, let's have them change colour depending on mood. I really want him to be a great swordsman. No wait, a wizard. No, a ninja. Screw it, he can be all of them. What are my favourite things to read about in fantasy stories? I want him to be part of a travelling gypsy group, those are always interesting. But I also want him to be a thief and a singer and an actor and an orphan and, oh one person can be all of those. That's not overkill, is it? Nah. I just can't believe that he wrote a character like that completely unaware. There must be more to it. And that's where the question is, is this on purpose as a way to tear down the idea of a Mary Sue as proven by his state in the present part of the story or is it just wish-fulfillment? edit: I apologise for all the words. I didn't realise it'd be this long.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:10
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Karnegal posted:I really feel like the PA guys (or at least the one who draws the strip) and Rothfuss are kindred souls. Neither of them have gotten over high school/college, despite their success. That was the thing that really confused me when I discovered fan fiction for the first time. I mean, surely everybody loves creating their own characters. I'd create Mary Sues and insert them in my favourite stories to have little adventures all the time! (In fact, on reflection one of my favourites was almost exactly like Kvothe but was a woman, had grey eyes and wasn't cocky. Everything else though: "I want her to sing well. And be a thief. And have bright red hair. And she has to be really good at magic and swordfighting etc, etc... I can't have been older than 10.) But those characters never left my head. I would never post them on the internet, let alone publish them in a book. knows a black guy posted:I just finished both books and enjoyed them a lot. I've skimmed the last couple pages of this thread, reading the complaints about the writing, and I understand and agree with most of them, but it didn't lessen my enjoyment. The Kvothe series kind of reminded me of Trudi Canavan's Black Magician series. I found them equally kind of light reading, although they do have multiple viewpoints. I'll also add another vote towards Lies of Locke Lamora. That's currently hands-down my favourite book, I think it has brilliant characters and world-building.
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Aug 11, 2014 22:28
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The content makes a huge difference. I could easily read 100 pages of an interesting book in no time, but one dull page could take hours. For me that section was what finally made me put the book down, I just couldn't bear to finish reading through it. I don't remember the tree, I must have skimmed over it. As much as I hate skim-reading, I don't feel like I've really missed anything.
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Aug 16, 2014 10:32
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Wittgen posted:If you don't remember the tree, you missed at least one huge something. For me at least it was just because the ridiculousness reached its peak. Until then I'd been reading the books with the thought that nobody could possibly be writing it while taking themselves seriously and when I came to the point with the sex goddess it was sort of like a final straw - whether they were serious or not became irrelevant as it was just too stupid and I felt like I was wasting my time that could have been better spent doing something productive, like staring at a wall. (Yes it's been over a year and I'm still very cynical about it) I would have probably been able to take the tree part a bit more seriously if I hadn't stopped paying attention around then. Does anyone have a summary of the important tree things that happen?
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Aug 16, 2014 16:44
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I'm like 15% into the Name of the Wind and if the story doesn't pull up from Kvothe's all-consuming Mary Sueness I will have to do something else despite the overall good prose. If that's going to keep bothering me, should I keep going? No, it doesn't. And in regards to what the others say about it being a tragedy about a guy who's hosed up, it may be but it doesn't happen in either of those two books. (the mary sue only gets worse)
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Oct 3, 2014 02:31
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:P.S. I take back what I said about the prose being good, it isn't. It's also an absolute embarrassment that this is one of the highest-rated books on Goodreads. It's cliched and lazy almost beyond belief. I know, right? I was shocked when I saw the ratings for it. I understand it having a certain type of reader it's aimed at who likes that sort of pulp fantasy story, but to have those kind of ratings can't be right. (And then when I came to look it up on something awful certain it would be absolutely torn to shreds here I felt a bit betrayed. Guys, why.) Then again one of my acquaintances absolutely loves it so maybe I'll have to ask him some time to explain what it is that he likes about it. It's probably that I'm just being too haughty about things like "character flaws" and "development" or something and I just need to sit back and actually enjoy the story.
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Oct 7, 2014 06:11
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