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iyaayas01 posted:With the direction and angle the initial penetration comes from, if it's an RPG/shoulder fired weapon that dude has big brass ones because he waited until the BMP was almost on top of him before firing...which makes me think it was an emplaced mine/IED with a shaped charge warhead. Don't most RPG's have a minimum distance flown before the warhead is armed?
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Jun 11, 2012 16:41
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VikingSkull posted:Yeah, British Cold War era stuff is almost like a sci-fi version of what the US and USSR were doing. The inboard engines, strange wing styles....it looks off somehow but also looks totally right at the same time. Ernest Bevin posted:"We've got to have this thing. I don't mind it for myself, but I don't want any other Foreign Secretary of this country to be talked at or to by the Secretary of State of the US as I have just been... We've got to have this thing over here, whatever it costs ... We've got to have the bloody Union Jack on top of it." Immediately after WWII the co-operation between the US and UK over nuclear weapons fell apart (McMahon act pretty much cut out any co-operation) so the british government decided to ensure their own capacity. By the early 50's the british had developed enough to be producing their own fissile materials, and the US thawed a bit (the first soviet test helped) and started co-operating again- the british would supply scientists and fissile materials, and the US would supply nuclear devices. At this time, the UK was very concerned that the US would not risk her own cities in the event of a European only war, and not deploy nuclear weapons. In 1952 the UK had it's first test, hurricane which was pretty much a direct copy of "fat man". This was then quickly adapted into a freefall bomb with a yield of around 15-20 kilotons, the "blue danube" which was ready to be carried by Valiant bombers by the end of 1953 (although around a hundred devices were made, apparently only around a dozen were ready for use at any one time due to excessive servicing requirements). By this time, thermonuclear devices were starting to be tested, and despite objections from parliament over the cost, a british fusion device was developed and culminated in the grapple tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Grapple) which initially were failures in terms of yield, but ended up working ok. While the problems were ironed out, a very large (400 Kt) fission only device, "green grass" was fielded but never tested (some versions used direct copies of US Mk-28 bombs). "Blue Danube" was shrunk into "Red Beard", which could be used with a much wider range of aircraft, including carrier based assets of the Royal Navy. By the early 60's the UK was developing it's own MRBM system, "blue streak" as part of the space program, but political pressure (and rumoured bribes) led to the eventual cancellation of the UK's own space efforts (the only nation to develop a native and working satellite launch system then abandon it  ) and it was announced that the UK would pursue the US's "Skybolt" system for use with british warheads, which in turn was cancelled due to poor test performance and the emergence of SLBMs, which led to the UK purchasing the Polaris system after quite major political arguments (the UK had intended to put almost all of the deterrent force on Skybolts and wanted to have the same deterrent as the US, some US politicians wanted to keep the knowledge US only). It was around this time that soviet air defences were getting massively upgraded, and the predicted chances of V Bombers managing to penetrate and deploy nuclear weapons deep into Russia was slipping by the year, so the main strategic deterrent was switched over to Polaris (in service around 1968), with the RAF and Royal Navy keeping tactical weapons (air dropped bombs, torpedoes and depth charges based around the WE177 device), and the Army was equipped with US designed and owned nuclear artillery and rockets in Germany. The V bombers were largely retasked with targeting warsaw pact forces in the result of an invasion, with conventional and nuclear weapons. The TSR2 was developed, and then cancelled around this time, pretty much ending the RAF's strategic nuclear role. I can strongly recommend "The Secret State" by Peter Hennessy for a look at the UK's preparations (or lack thereof) for nuclear war during the cold war, it's really quite chilling. *edit* realising that my pre-coffee brain forgot a few bits, will write some more later DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Jul 13, 2012 |
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Jul 13, 2012 14:30
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I keep meaning to do a longer British cold war post but keep getting sidetracked. In the meanwhile... had everything gone all hosed up during the 60's, this is what would have been issued to every UK household- Civil Defence Handbook No.10 "Advising the Householder on protection against nuclear attack"            It was the forerunner to the "Protect And Survive" manuals meant for distribution in the late 70's/80's
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Jul 24, 2012 13:17
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grover posted:Iran is claiming to have captured a US Scan Eagle UAV. They say they captured it electronically, like they claim to have captured the RQ-170 last year. So they get launched with a giant catapult which is pretty cool, but how do they recover them? Giant net?
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Dec 5, 2012 09:53
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I can strongly recommend "The fate of the Earth" by J. Schell for excellent descriptions of the effects of nuclear weapons and fallout. Heavily depressing though, and the final third of the book veers off and rambles about the moral issues around nuclear weaponry, but the first 2/3rds is purestrain scientific terror. I would love to be able to read into the science research behind threads, it had such an amazing team behind it. Would also love to know if they used the yield/number of weapons that "Square Leg" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Square_Leg) indicated in their calculations, because 131 weapons with a total of 205 Megatons seems low compared to other estimates, yet so devastating in the film.
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Jan 15, 2013 16:28
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Insane Totoro posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21074699 I had two great-uncles that swore up and down they saw similar stuff happen at two US airbases in the UK, with crated jeeps and other equipment. Then again, one of them claimed constantly to have seen several people "blown away by a nazi '88" despite never leaving the UK
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Jan 18, 2013 22:41
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Is there a way to get Bravo Romeo Delta working on a 64 bit machine? I have played around with compatibility a bit but nothing seems to do the trick. All I want to do is wipe out the capitalist pigs 
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May 21, 2013 12:03
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Hoopy Frood posted:Give DOSBOX a try, BRD works fine for me in it. Thanks, that did the trick. Wish I could go all out from the start though 
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May 21, 2013 14:28
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F22 Lighting 2 had a fabulous manual that was as thick as my thumb, which went through the history of flight, the physics of it, combat manoeuvres and tactics, and a detailed breakdown of every weapons system in the game. It was also a fantastic jumping point into more complex flight sims, and a hellishly fun game. Now seemingly everything is incredibly simple, or like A10-C, wanting you to spend days learning how to start your engines properly and taxi
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May 23, 2013 09:22
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Nukemap 3D inspired me to start putting together an alternate history based on able archer '83 going as horrendous as possible and resulting in all out toe to toe nucular combat with the rooskies, if people are interested I can post it?
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Aug 7, 2013 16:36
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In October 1983 Able Archer, a NATO exercise in escalation of hostilities with Warsaw pact forces to the point of nuclear exchange, saw the Soviet Union, at a time of extreme political weakness, with Chairman Andropov laying slowly dying from kidney failure in a hospital bed, the exercise as a possible ruse to a first strike designed to decapitate a disoriented leader and fractious government. The Soviet Union responded with high alerts and a strong suspicion of attack. As this was near to the high point of cold war weaponry and overkill madness, I thought it might be nice if things went to poo poo rather than calming down, and by go to poo poo, I mean about as bad as things could have gotten. So let's mess with history.  12th September 1983 A 12 strong, Red Army Faction cell launches an attack on an American checkpoint/strongpoint in West Berlin with heavy machine guns and rocket propelled grenade fire. The American unit responds in force, but mistakenly also attack East German Guard units, who respond in turn. Commanders on both sides quickly rein in the situation, but with the level of firepower sitting around, casualties number several hundred total, more than half civilian. International outrage with each side blaming the other. 2nd November 1983 Able Archer goes ahead. Andropov's health worsens more due to increased tensions, after the Korean Airlines shootdown he was bad, after the fictitious attack in west Berlin he has a mild heart attack and is barely in play at this point. Hardline factions push for a strong military stance in response to the provocation of Able Archer, flights by TU-95 Bears probing coastlines and edges of carrier battle groups increase and become more aggressive, units are called home from leave, maintenance budgets just became limitless. November - December 1983 These actions noticed by Western intelligence, who interpret the increased readiness in their opponents as probable power plays as preparations for Andropov's imminent death. The only logical response for the Soviets, given what they believed was to prepare for the worst, and every branch of the services started dispersing what they could and digging in what they couldn't. Things like that are expensive, and get noticed, and now Western Intelligence are sniffing around a lot more, and reporting back with concern as they find out the depth of the Soviet preparations for war. The Western response is to start dispersing and digging in too, and civilians start getting leaflets of what to do in the event of Nuclear War. This, of course is noted by Soviet intelligence as confirmation of their suspicions. Military leaves cancelled, shops start to ration, art is taken from galleries, kids stop showing up at school. Governments start quietly passing emergency laws, a worried world starts digging in.  5th January 1984 2240 GMT A large NATO carrier task force in the North sea is undergoing the new levels of harassment from Soviet Naval Aviation, a pair of Bears are performing a fake attack run. The F-14 pilot up to ID them is fatigued, and when caught in slipstream from veering too close collides with the Bear. The equally fatigued pilot of the other Bear radios frantically that they are under attack, before targeting it's KH22 antiship missiles on the largest target around and firing, shortly before being torn apart by the F-14's wingman. Both missiles miss. Little has been passed on the Andropov in the last few days but he finally manages to get a reasonable idea of the severity of the situation. He attempts to leave his sickbed, but the strain is too much, and the 69 year old former WWII partisan collapses and dies.  6th January 0112 GMT Two more Bears are encountered by F-14's and downed. The Soviet theatre commander is getting no clear response from his superiors, who are too busy finding out which faction of the politburo they should be obeying, and orders in a strike by 8 TU22M Backfires. A little over an hour later, 80 KH-15 antiship missiles are launched at a promising target in the NATO carrier task force. They climbed to a little over 100,000 feet before going into a terminal dive at around mach 5. Many were intercepted or distracted, but several penetrate the defences of the carriers picket. They are conventional, but there are seven of them, and HMS Invincible sinks quickly, nearly all crew lost. Partnering carriers and escorts from NATO proceed to savage a small task force of Soviet units but also unknowingly kill an Delta class Missile Submarine that was visiting a tender, warheads and all. The loss of a nuclear asset does start getting the attentions of a frenzied Soviet high command, as does a carrier group on the attack. 6th January 0336 The NATO force is now headed towards another Soviet task force, with a heavy air complement in place. Only one submarine bypasses the defences of the carrier group, but that's enough, and as the Enterprise is receiving an F-14 the equivalent of 20 Kilotons of TNT detonated a few metres from the hull, a destroyer and it's auxiliary are also in the maelstrom. The fireball is nearly half a kilometre wide, and the blast waves and thermal radiation damage ships over 10 kilometres from the epicentre. In command and control rooms worldwide, red lights flash and alarms sound. As many members of the Politburo are currently en route to bunkers, there is no clear leadership other than the hardline faction already in place. Two members of the Politburo known to be moderate never make it to a bunker, and their executed bodies are dumped in a ditch by their politically reliable drivers for no-one to ever find. The hardline faction is making itself the only faction. A 3 hour ceasefire is agreed, and both sides pull away from each other slightly. Apologies if it's a bit crap, been awhile since I wrote anything
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Aug 7, 2013 23:25
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monkeytennis posted:Good stuff, keep going! Ta Here's the next 36 hours or so: 6th January 0736 All the three hours serves to do is allow every single asset available to be pushed into place, officials and stores into bunkers, every bomb possible loaded on every plane, many dispersed to the smallest runways that will take them. The media is talking about cool heads talking calmly to bring an end to things, but in many cities people are fleeing or looting. Units of soldiers are being moved into factory basements, bank vaults, mine shafts and anywhere else that offers protection. All but the most violent prisoners have been evicted from prisons, Fire and Police units are moving all equipment and personnel they can get out of large cities. In Germany, attempted desertions on both sides have brought prompt summary execution. All over Europe and the US reserve units are being activated, stockpiles of weapons handed out and dispersed, and shipped towards whatever front is closest, or units given orders simply to get as far from civilisation as they can for 2 weeks before reporting back. Old WW2 bunkers are hastily reactivated.  Stairway to moderate blast and excellent fallout protection 6th January 0822 Nearly another hour of relative peace, but it's breaking down. During this time, the Politburo, unsure of the ability of the command and control to survive an attempt at decapitation, issue commands to launch on warning if there is no response, with the hard-line faction ensuring massive retaliation is the option. Reagan is now debating his options on board Air Force One with heavy escort circling over the Atlantic, Thatcher is settling into a command room 150ft underground near Corsham (the newly built, still in use deep bunker, not the old quarry site). The Queen arrived in Canada several days previously, under media secrecy, and is on a remote estate. No civilian flights are running, but many have been pressed into service over the last few days to run troops and cargo. Even those have now tapered off to a minimum. Motorways are now official use only. Radio and TV broadcasts have regular explanations about how siren warnings work, and advise people to stay inside. NATO commanders have been passed battlefield authority on a very limited selection of tactical nuclear weapons. Warsaw pact forces now have the codified responses based on the launch on warning selection, from single kiloton artillery devices, through to full scale nuclear war.  Nice red doors on an RAF radar bunker of love. Morning of 6th January There was no single event to re-trigger, both sides were so scared of being caught off guard that commanders ensured every unit was patrolling aggressively and extensively. A general loose fire-fight with light weapons that was developing down the west/east German border flares up, aerial skirmishes around carrier groups, and several assassinations and more attempts on the lives of several high ranking staff on both sides. Many other small incidents. Press censorship is now heavily in place in all nations, they broadcast what they are told or they become emergency message only. Very few people have shown up for work. Petrol and Diesel is almost entirely rationed, police guards at supermarkets limit people to what they can carry. Places like cinemas, sports stadiums, warehouses and other buildings are closed and requisitioned for official use. Afternoon of 6th January By early afternoon, the Soviet ability to flood in troops is starting to tell, and despite profligate ammunition usage by NATO troops the Soviets start pushing through with weight of numbers and increasing amounts of heavy artillery support. Multiple air strikes are released, and the skies over the iron curtain are thick with aircraft as NATO attempt to flood in as many strike aircraft as they can over the front line and into supply areas, and Warsaw pact aviation attempts to do the same, while large and dedicated air defence systems pound at anything resembling an enemy. Governance in all nations seems to have halted now, all ministers have fled, no more official business, all freedoms already quashed and everything turned over to those in the bunkers.  Fire in the large muddy pit! Evening/Early Morning of 6th January By now, all efforts at peace seem to have fallen away, and the West is unsure of what factions are left within the Kremlin. The Politburo is sure that the attempted decapitation is about to happen, and are deeply dug in under mountains in the Urals, hard to communicate with even if they are listening. On the Western front, fighting is growing more intense, in the air NATO are grinding heavily at Warsaw pact numbers but still do not dominate the skies, and on the ground, under cover of massive artillery and missile strikes Warsaw pact armoured forces have started pushing forwards through NATO lines to better defensive lines. Snow starts to pour down, with heavy fog hampering air strikes. An anti-war demonstration in Bonn is attacked by right wing extremists and several are killed. Martial law is put into effect in West Germany, though they need not have bothered- most people are staying at home.  SR-71 If you didn't know that slap yourself in the damned head 7th January 0722 At dawn the fog has cleared somewhat, and at dawn a SR-71 Blackbird flight tears down the European continent at Mach 3, a good 100 miles past the wrong side of the German border. It records multiple armoured divisions offloading in Eastern Germany, in exactly the places that NATO fear they are going to be pushed. After a night of incredibly bloody combat, the NATO line is ragged, and while supplies and reinforcements are flooding in, the Warsaw pact advance is relentless. The daylight and lifting fog have helped air strikes somewhat, but overnight Warsaw pact forces seem to have flown in all their B rated older units too, and are literally throwing everything in to try and confuse things and let elite units slip through. It works. Many NATO rear areas and command posts are hit hard, though the Warsaw Pact forces take heavy losses. 7th January 1052 The confusion of losing so many local command and control and many reinforcement/reserve units and supplies has had the desired effect on NATO, Warsaw pact forces have pushed nearly 20Km inside Western Germany in places, and have been given the order to dig in while reinforcements are brought off the trains. A large scale NATO raid is being assembled across Europe, while the remnants of the initial Warsaw pact strike are landing. The North Sea carrier group has moved near the English coast, and is receiving new vessels and offloading casualties from the strike that obliterated the Enterprise. Soviet surface forces have fallen right back, but submarine forces are meeting at deep, pre allotted places and organising. In the sea of Japan, Soviet submarines are doing the same, but run across a US task force, with an aggressive submarine screen with lots of P3 Orion support mean that the submarines are found, and with heavy aerial support the US task force starts obliterating the Soviet wolf pack. In war rooms around the world, requests for tactical nuclear weapon release from local commanders grow. High level meetings ensue.  T80 it's a tank and it shoots things at things 7th January 1213 The NATO high command, deeply concerned with the lack of effect air power and artillery are having on Warsaw pact advances, suggest a small number of Pershing II missiles be released on Airfields, Command centres and the areas Soviet troops are offloading and massing. Thatcher and Reagan decide to wait another few hours, but authorise all available conventional air assets into action, and nuclear units to highest readiness. The Soviet naval forces around the sea of Japan start responding to the US naval task force attacking the submarines with Bears and Backfires. The CAP around the carriers is effective, but Soviet Naval Aviation is still holding back its forces and seems to probe more than strike. light losses on each side, but the submarines are stuck in place. An agent working for what's left of the moderate element of the politburo attempts to assassinate the new chairman and two other hard-liners. He fluffs it, and is promptly killed in the attempt. The politburo are convinced the agent was actually British intelligence launching the start of the decapitation strike. Soviet units around Giessen, West Germany start receiving a strong flow of T-80 and T-72 tanks, with heavy infantry support. They start to push towards Frankfurt. Marine patrol craft operating from Iceland and the UK pick up occasional signals but never anything concrete off the coast of the UK, France and Spain.  Avro Shackleton Maritime Patrol/AEW aircraft, derived from the WW2 Lancaster Bomber, and in service till 1990 because the UK is cheap DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Aug 8, 2013 |
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Aug 8, 2013 19:28
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Koesj posted:Yeah no that ground forces scenario doesn't really work I was generally just going for trouble along the border flaring up, then forces looking for the better position their opponent has and taking it. You are right though, it doesn't make much sense- more of just a diversion while everything slides into poo poo on a much larger scale, which is the stuff I'm doing at the moment Cyrano4747 posted:I'll also add that the idea of the W. German military responding to attempted desertions with summary executions is really, really questionable at best. In the 80s you would have had a lot of guys in leadership positions who had a living memory of WW2, and pretty much everyone in the BRD agreed that the executions of German soldiers for cowardice during the last stages of the war were loving unforgivable. One of the real ironies of post-war justice was that a lot of no bullshit war criminals were finally brought to justice not for what they did to jews, but for ordering some random private shot for cowardice or desertion in the closing months of the war. W. German officer training leaned way, way heavily on the "we do not do this poo poo" end of that particular issue after the war. Also true, should probably have just left it as some soviet units, if that. I have a few days ahead of where I am here that I am finishing up at the moment, hopefully post more of it in the morning if people want.
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Aug 8, 2013 22:37
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Koesj posted:I don't know if you're familiar with some of the worthie efforts at https://alternatehistory.com but stuff like the Cuban Missile War and Protect & Survive might be worth checking out for pointers in getting your work a bit more up to speed on the realism scale. Thanks, to you and others with identifying missing elements/flaws, I appreciate it. I'm going to take a few days and not quite start over, but do a substantial re-write. I think a chunk of my problem has just been not taking my time but just trying to rush to sticky sweet nuclear climax, rather than working on the sweet conventional and political foreplay. I will also go back a bit further with historical context, it appears the Soviet Union were in a reasonably advanced state of panic/suspicion from '78-'79 onwards.
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Aug 10, 2013 12:18
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Was this only done as a few interceptor tests, or would it have worked just as well as silo based missiles? Because the thought of a flight of C-5's dropping ICBM's (in formation, and synchronised) gives me a cold war boner
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Aug 11, 2013 13:23
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Nebakenezzer posted:The only way to win is adequate mine shaft space and men prepared for... prodigious service  fixed that up a bit for you there I'm nearly done with the first bit of the revised alt-history, just going to take some time to polish up a bit and keep scanning for more details. The cold war was really loving crazy, and the more I read, the more I am surprised things didn't go entirely to poo poo. DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 08:53
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While things are back on nukechat, I have written and re-written crap a few times for my alt history and I'm still not happy with it. However, I finished my run up to events timeline, and thought it might be interesting to post. All this actually happened, at least according to wikipedia, it's linked sources, and the documentary "1983- the brink of apocalypse" which is well worth a watch. (won't work in the UK, gently caress you channel4) December 12, 1979 Nato military command, mindful of the threat posed by the SS-20 Saber intermediate range nuclear missiles currently being deployed, orders 108 new Pershing II missiles to West Germany, and 464 BGM-109G Ground Launched Cruise Missiles to sites in the UK, West Germany, The Netherlands and Belgium. This unveiling of cutting edge nuclear weaponry gives NATO an incredibly effective first strike capability -Pershing II can just about reach targets around western Moscow from West Germany in around 9 minutes, GLCM's are far slower but are very hard to detect and with double the range. The Soviet Union monitors this with increasing suspicion and concern. January 20, 1981 Reagan takes office. His rhetoric and reversal in policy from the detente under Carter do little to aid relations, neither does him resurrecting the B1 bomber and pushing the MX missile program. US military spending surpasses a trillion dollars per year, a lot of it on the profiteers that financed First Strike. By February, PSYOPs against the Soviet Union are increasing (such as bombers turning off at the last minute from Soviet airspace, unexpected drills, probes made by naval units, same crap as normal, just a LOT more of it). May, 1981 Yuri Andropov, leader of the KGB, bluntly tells the politburo that the US's actions only point towards one thing- a planned first strike to try and remove the Soviet Union when the military balance favoured them. Under instruction from the politburo, the KGB institute operation RYAN "Raketno-Yadernoe Napadenie"- "Nuclear Missile Attack". RYAN was a vast effort to monitor signs that NATO or some constituent nations were planning a nuclear strike, and involved monitoring everything from activity at nuclear sites, the price of blood, movements of diplomats to how many staff seemed to be working late. The status of the operation was monitored on a large board that monitored the progression of any such activity, and the more indicators that were deemed to be met, the closer the anticipated strike was. The politburo are regularly kept informed as to its status. June 8, 1982 Reagan addresses the British Parliament and declares "the forward march of freedom and democracy will leave Marxism–Leninism on the ash-heap of history". Soviet deployment of the SS-20 is reaching maximum, with over 400 road mobile missiles spread over 48 launch sites. GLCM crews are training, and the first crews are arriving at RAF Greenham Common under heavy protest. Work in secret on the SDI program is in full swing in the US, and is probably reasonably well known to the Soviets, who have their own program. November 10, 1982 Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev dies after spending his last year or so almost entirely in hospital. Yuri Andropov, his successor is not much healthier and a lot more paranoid. The SS-18 Mod 4 has now reached the maximum allowable levels under the SALT-1 treaty. This number of missiles had the estimated capability to destroy 65 to 80 percent of US ICBM silos using two nuclear warheads against each. Even after this, more than 1000 SS-18 warheads would be available for further strikes against targets in the US, some of them capable of laying a 25 Megaton warhead in a groundburst to attack bunkers, others in groups of 10 MIRV warheads and 40 penetration aids per missile (if the SALT-1 treaty were to be ignored, many of those penetration aids could be replaced by warheads). March 8, 1983 Reagan goes in front of an evangelical conference and labels the Soviet Union the "Evil Empire" on TV. Andropov's kidneys have failed, and he is running the country from his hospital bed, with a small cabal of politburo members. The average age of the politburo is 74, these ailing old men have been in power for a very long time, and have spent the last 40 years anticipating an attack. Two weeks later, Reagan announces SDI publically. He touts it as a defensive measure, but the offensive uses as a shield from retaliation is clear to the Soviet leaders, and if an effective shield was in place, it would render many very expensive Soviet weapon systems obsolete and vulnerable. April 1983 FleetEx '83 is a large (40+ ships, over 300 aircraft) fleet exercise in the North Pacific, which involves several incidents of US aircraft purposefully breaching and overflying Soviet territory. The idea is to test and record the reaction of the Soviet forces for indepth analysis. The Soviet Union protests, and overflies the Aleutian Islands in revenge. The politburo do not understand Reagan and his approach, and take things far more seriously than the levels of pressure the Reagan administration intends. Vladimir Kryuchkov replaces Andropov as head of the KGB (where he stayed until there wasn't a KGB anymore). Agents reporting to him called him paranoid, always trying to find an angle that the West was trying to exploit. July 1983 The board monitoring RYAN is being gradually filled with crosses, as expected conditions for Nuclear War are met. An urgent directive is sent to KGB agents warning of an expected attack, requesting any and all relevant information be found and passed on. September 1, 1983 Korean Air Lines Flight 007 is shot down when it goes drastically off course. It runs a course similar to US intelligence flights probing airspace, but does not turn off like normal. Two SU-15's are despatched to the intruder. After they meet, KAL007 turns away towards international airspace. Soviet Command orders the plane shot down, which is recorded by US listening posts. It develops into a large scale international crisis. The Soviets deny everything, then when pushed say it was an intelligence flight, even faking cockpit recordings. Reagan hams it up, calls the USSR terrorists. KGB reports that such a crisis will be used as much as possible to destabilize the Soviet Union, the KGB office temp puts some more X's on the board marked RYAN (imagine that was in cyrillic for me) September 26, 1983 Stanislav Petrov, in command of an early warning bunker south of Moscow disregards several missile alerts from the system showing ICBM launches from the US. There was no indicator of a malfunction. The timing had the projected missile launches from the midwest while the sun was setting and there were natural flashes everywhere from reflections, so visual satellite confirmation was not accurate. He elected to disable the alarm, and more launches were detected. By now, the message is being raised with the chain of command, the computer system thinks there are 5 launches, and Andropov has now been informed. Petrov decides the US would not open up with only 5 missiles, and cancels the alert again. The 5 missiles were high altitude clouds. The world may well have been within a few minutes, or a few more high altitude clouds from destruction at this point. October 1, 1983 Rainer Rupp, the KGB's special agent Topaz is a German working for NATO high command. He manages to steal vast amounts of classified information over the years, including documents showing full military orders of battle, maps of staging areas e.t.c. He is the highest ranking KGB officer within NATO, and is privy to most information which is relayed directly back to an increasingly paranoid Kryuchkov. October 10, 1983 Reagan watches "The Day After" and gets depressed about it. A few days later, he gets his first full SIOP briefing, after avoiding it for years. He orders the SDI program accelerated, the Soviet Union gets more paranoid. KGB offices get a timetable for Nuclear War and it's likely stages. The countdown had already started. October 23, 1983 Beirut bombing claims over 200 American soldiers, all US military bases go on high alert. This hits various RYAN indicators as the bases remain at increased readiness. October 24, 1983 Grenada is invaded by the US. Massive levels of encrypted communications traffic open up between the US and UK as Grenada is technically the Queen's sovereign territory, and this caused somewhat of a diplomatic spat. To Soviet analysts, it was noted as a massive increase in encrypted traffic expected before an attack, and taken as a serious prelude to war. November 2, 1983 NATO exercise "ABLE ARCHER" begins. It's a command post exercise over ten days, designed to simulate a Soviet push into the West turning biological/chemical, and then a Nuclear strike in response by NATO. The final stages of RYAN predict an exercise being used as a cover to ready the final stages of a strike without raising suspicion. KGB agents and listening posts monitor the exercise very closely. NATO trialled a new message format, encryption and new procedures for this exercise. This, again, was exactly the kind of thing that RYAN predicted would accompany the preparations for a Nuclear strike. The politburo order various Nuclear and conventional forces to high alert. The CIA notice several elements of Soviet Nuclear forces being readied. DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 09:44
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fuf posted:
Yeah, it was news to me, but blood/blood products are sold internationally to make up for shortfalls e.t.c, so I guess it stands to reason that monitoring prices and markets will give you an idea of supply/demand. **edit (I'm also loving the mental image of a stereotypical gruff KGB officer deriding the capitalist pigs for putting a price on blood, "is there anything those decadent dogs won't sell" e.t.c) And yeah, wanker was a little off, have replaced it. I was finishing it up last night and missed bits. Apparently there was a lot of tension and provocation around the search for the debris of KAL007 that should have gone in too. I'm still not sure on how to trigger it- I'm probably just going to invent another fuckup and then just take it through what would probably have been an incredibly fast escalation, getting bogged down in writing worse than airport grade military fiction is where I went wrong last time, I want to put it more on what happens generally, strike plans, order of events and the breakdown of things and the effect on the planet long term. DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 10:49
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fuf posted:I've watched this a few times (isn't some of the same footage used in The Day After?) and the guy at 6:33 always cracks me up. Everyone else is super professional and he is like I have sat through a fair bit of youtube cold war goodness (Cold War by the same producers as the excellent series on World War II, The World at War was another must, both can be found on youtube) and by far, "First Strike" was the weirdest, it was like they walked on a base, told a bunch of soldiers/airmen "right, we are going to make a film, and you are going to be the actors! it's going to be great! we get annihilated by the rooskies because we dared not spend even more on defence" and just got on with it. Loved a bunch of the 50's/60's era SAC/civil defence stuff though, all actors, all confident patriotic concerned faces but calm in the face of annihilation.
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Sep 13, 2013 14:49
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Would like to suggest "Without Warning" for a low budget early 90's alien invasion film, it's not great but it's got a refreshing deviation from most common plots. I would think any civilization capable of travelling to us would also be capable of taking apart the planet at will (we could probably pull it off ourselves with sufficient effort, and we are really dumb), but other than malice why bother? the exact same poo poo is available everywhere else in the universe, as far as we can tell, there is no unobtanium here. As a general question on the alt history, should I stick to a timeline or have a few first person bits mixed in?
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Sep 15, 2013 01:29
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Time to get the ball rolling. Kind of. November 3, 1983 0822 GMT Meeting of the politburo. Leader of the KGB, Vladimir Kryuchkov tells the politburo that the expected missile attack has a very high probability of occurring within 7-10 days. Here's where deviate from history. November 3, 1983 1022 GMT Inside a nondescript NATO office building in Brussels, three military police officers flank a suited man, as they move through the building with purpose. They halt outside a door, under the suspicious glances of office workers. The MP's wait either side of the door, out of sight, while the suit knocks on the door with a call. A bearded guy pops out in a friendly manner. As soon as he appears, the MP's seize the man, and cuff him. Rainer Rupp is informed he is being arrested under suspicion of espionage. Others appear and start ransacking his office. Within the hour he is uncuffed again, but sat in new clothes in a questioning room. The pictures on the camera he was caught with are rushed to the dark room. They are high quality images of documents detailing current NATO dispositions, field positions and readiness plans- even Cosmic Top Secret documents concerning nuclear readiness and positions. Rupp has been getting this together for a week and was preparing to send it, and it would have been great for persuading the Kremlin that NATO were not actually making a move. The Kremlin have grown accustomed to knowing much of what was happening in NATO due to special agent "Topaz", and his report was already overdue. RYAN also provides conditions for the opponent rounding up any potential subversive agents in the moments before war. 1152 GMT Kryuchkov has been bombarded with requests for more information about NATO's intentions for days, and has spent the last few hours trying to get a clearer picture to present to the politburo. News reaches him of the loss of Topaz. Around the same time, investigators in Brussels are informing a shocked high level NATO staff of exactly the kind of information that has been stolen and passed onto the Soviets by Rainer Rupp. 1302 GMT NATO high command, under the contingency plans laid in place, authorise emergency changes to many things deemed unacceptably compromised by Rainer Rupp, including nuclear staging positions and communications encryption. Soon after the plans are authorised, every single NATO military force goes into overdrive communications wise, as the emergency plans are sent and start to be implemented. Soon, bases are jumping into activity. 2126 GMT Soviet signals intelligence is noting another spike in encrypted traffic, going to some units of great note. The communications, however, are using entirely new protocols, and there are massive amounts of activity. This is passed up the chain with alarm, and another special meeting of the politburo is called for tomorrow, while analysts work overtime to collate everything RYAN associated. Human intelligence is also starting to report mobilisation and movement at delicate NATO bases. The KGB are pulling out all the stops, and this does not go un-noticed by the very paranoid and exposed feeling NATO, who are looking at the CIA reports of Soviet nuclear readiness changes and wondering if the end could be staring them in the face. November 4, 1983 1140 GMT The politburo have been in session for nearly 3 hours. The consensus is forming that NATO have elected to provoke a war, the RYAN indicators have now shown this beyond doubt, enough at least, to justify the vast cost of meaningful preparations for war. The plans for these eventualities are extensive, and in very little time, orders are rolling out to every part of the Warsaw pact. The politburo themselves, under the provisions of the plans, start travelling to various deep level bunkers, spread over the vast expanse of the USSR. 1410 GMT By now, the flurry of activity is blanketing the Soviet Union like a poorly constructed weather joke. Elite units are scrambling, but not for any front line, just for anywhere away from a likely target, ordered to disperse and regroup after armageddon. Reservists, and there are a lot of them, are drawing on stocks of old weaponry and industry is being shut down. Bomber crews are summoned to base, while aircraft and weapon readiness is assessed and reported. Alongside dock at several ports, multiple ships light up thermally with the heat of their engines and crew, all serviceable armed SSBN's having left during the previous evening to sit in safe places and wait. KGB bases worldwide are now operating on a wartime footing, and following the timetable directive received. Oleg Gordievsky has been working for the KGB for a long time, and is now trusted as "rezident" of the London Bureau. He leaves for a late lunch. At the end of his meal, however, he walks through the back of the restaurant and gets into the back of a waiting van. The KGB's trust has been greatly misguided, as Gordievsky has been working for British Intelligence since becoming disillusioned following the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. He, however, decided that now is the time to defect in full. His normal handler is rushed in, and quickly calls in military staff and intelligence analysts- the several hundred pages of documents and photos in Gordievsky's briefcase are shocking, as is the frank insider information he is offering. 1845 GMT Heads of state of most NATO countries have now been fully warned and informed, but all had some previous indication through their own intelligence sharing. For most, the military reality is vague at best, but the finances speak clearly- while there have been many alerts and close calls, never before has either side really thrown all the cash and resources at getting ready for the real thing. Now the intelligence can't lie about what the Soviets are getting ready for, but there is no solid indication why. With NATO still potentially compromised and vulnerable, they have no choice but to authorise their own emergency planning and go on full alert. Reagan leaves the White House and heads towards a VC-137. Margaret Thatcher is moved out of London to a SECRET NUCLEAR BUNKER and other leaders enter similar bunkers, or take to sea. Civil defence was never really undertaken in any real meaningful way, probably because it was realised as largely futile without vast investment. Nevertheless, the placebo is still offered, and emergency plans are activated. Media organisations are starting to take note of some kind of crisis, and are linking it to the ongoing search for wreckage of KAL007. In the UK, Protect and Survive is released to the public. The Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament holds a massive protest at RAF Greenham Common, but is forcibly cleared. The 501st Tactical Missile wing only finished getting their missiles yesterday, flown in by C-5's. There is no media coverage of this, as the UK's emergency defence planning allows for media suppression. The KGB, however, have eyes on this, just the same as they note with grave interest the missile convoys leaving under heavy guard after dark. 2008 GMT As the politburo continue to spread to bunkers deep beneath deepest, darkest Russia, they are kept regularly updated. In a conference call, Kryuchkov breaks the news that Gordievsky was a double agent, and has defected to the enemy. Following the loss of Rainer Rupp/"Topaz", having such a senior, deeply knowledgeable asset defect is a very serious blow, and the news now filtering through of NATO nations deciding to start their own open preparations for war, the old men of the politburo now feel deeply vulnerable. The plans already activated are allowed to proceed as recommended by military advisors. If communication between the politburo and nuclear forces fail due to a decapitation strike, authority for the release of nuclear weapons will pass to lower level commanders, proceeding automatically to a set plan. Otherwise, Andropov, after advice from the politburo, decides to keep waiting. For a little over half a day, to allow forces more time to prepare. DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Sep 16, 2013 |
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Sep 16, 2013 15:26
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Snowdens Secret posted:It got discussed here but it was a ways back. It's not -that- bad by contemporary standards, which of course seem completely absurd today. I would expect that there a few more of them that successfully got swept under the carpet entirely, or are still classified heavily.
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Sep 22, 2013 08:18
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Slo-Tek posted:I always leaned toward the morbid side. Looked at the maps, looked at the blast radiuses and consulted with my pop "Hey Dad, do you think the Goodyear facilities in Akron would get a nuke? Are we far enough from Cleveland, if the winds are right?" Looking at the sheer number of warheads and launch vehicles kicking around in the early 80's, if it had gone to the full out spasm, use it or lose it style plan of attack (as it probably would have quickly evolved to) then I could readily imagine the vast majority of all industry (as well as the towns/cities full of workers) to be smouldering ruins. Population base and industrial bases are generally in the same places, at least as far as the blast radius from a spread of thermonuclear devices is concerned. It's why I have pretty much stalled down on the alternate history- just trying to examine the number of weapons/targets for a single nation is a phenomenal task, but it's also entirely depressing. The world would have been hosed. Probably not quite the end of humans, but certainly the end of large scale civilisation for a long time.
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Oct 2, 2013 19:58
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Forums Terrorist posted:That's why I doubt it'd actually have been "use it or lose it"; it'd probably have been a steady tit-for-tat, chipping away at each other's capability to fight until one side screamed uncle. After all, if you're a Soviet general and you manage to knock out the US's ability to flatten Za Rodina while your armies storm Germany why wouldn't you? Likewise, if you're his American counterpart and you neuter the Soviet deterrent why wouldn't you do that and then kick the Kremlin's door in? You can't knock out the enemy sufficiently to neuter them though- (especially by the late 70's, with 50,000+ warheads around) that was the sticking point of MAD, and the reason for spreading/hiding your deterrent as best you could, so the enemy doesn't play because there isn't a winning move, you can always be hit back (also why SDI was such a potential destabilizing game changer, "I can hit you, you can't hit me nearly as well"). If I was that Soviet general, I wouldn't be having a paddle in the channel after a week of rolling through Europe, NATO doctrine demands that my lovely armoured divisions got their tank crews all neutroned up after it became clear that the onwards march of global communism is unstoppable by conventional means. Someone launches say, a few dozen ICBM's at you. Until very late in the stage, you have no idea of where they are headed. It might be a few military bases, or they might be intended for your government, or your super shiny expensive missile fields. There might be single warheads aboard, maybe your opponent said "gently caress START, load up 50 MIRV's on each those fuckers". So, you launch them, because otherwise your command and control might be killed or disrupted, or one of your best weapons systems just got turned into a lot of burnt corn fields you don't want to go near, because you don't have time to think this over clearly. Your opponent sees you do the same, and starts fretting over their remaining missile fields (and there are a metric fuckton of them). They launch more. You launch a shitload more, because now the first batch are already on re-entry, and this might be your last few moments. Or, you just got whacked by an SLBM strike, there is no clear command and control, and your "dead hand" system triggers and issues commands automatically for massive retaliation. Or, the other side gets real lucky, and decapitates your CnC. The headless chicken that's left, however, is more than capable of pressing the right buttons- again, it's how nuclear warfare is set up, to make it such an unattractive proposition, to make mutual death so likely no sane person would go for it- that's the problem. People aren't sane, and the systems they put in place prone to error but very efficient at causing megadeaths. There's many of ways it could have gone full with neither side wanting it, and the whole system was designed around massive retaliation and surviving a first strike so you can hit back adequately. It's the two sides of the MAD coin, reduce the risk of it happening on one side, increase the risk of it being full blown on the other. DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Oct 2, 2013 |
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Oct 2, 2013 20:44
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canyoneer posted:And the actual story of Thomas Cochrane capturing El Gamo with HMS Speedy is even more incredible in real life than the re-telling in fiction. That guy was a grade A, genuine badass. I had to look this up, and the Action of 6th May 1801 was indeed, badass as all hell. quote:Finding that he had been beaten by such an inferior foe, the Spanish second-in-command asked Cochrane for a certificate assuring him that he had done all he could to defend his ship.[8] Cochrane obliged, with the equivocal wording that he had 'conducted himself like a true Spaniard' 
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Oct 25, 2013 09:03
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Dr.Oblivious posted:Does it have a volleyball scene? I don't know yet, but  
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Nov 4, 2013 20:26
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In terms of crazy falklands poo poo, operation mikado was pretty damned crazy. So, exocets were a clear and present danger to the ramshackle task force. Rather than lob a polaris or twenty, or risk the handful of harriers/another, even more complex black buck raid, the plan was to use 2 C-130's to land 50 or so SAS troopers directly onto an Argentine airfield in the Rio Grande in order to kill off the remaining Exocets, the Etendard strike fighters and pilots that were deemed to present the largest threat to her majesties royal penguin supply, then fly away again, or, failing that, fight 50+ miles on foot through Argentina into Chile. This wasn't just some pipe-dream, the operation was only cancelled when an attempt to insert some other SAS troops to create an observation point near the airfield was aborted after a comedy of errors trying to get them there, and several troopers resigned rather than go ahead with what would have almost certainly been a suicide mission.
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Jan 8, 2014 00:36
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stealie72 posted:I had mine crushed by my inability to not get nauseous on things as innocuous as a merry go round. Stupid lovely inner ear. Wow, I don't think I have even thought about this book in the last two decades, but This?  is that the one? DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jan 13, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 17:57
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stealie72 posted:Holy poo poo, yes. Goons are the best. I didn't remember the name, but got it through "boy steals electronic chess game book" I vaguely remember reading it and then asking my parents about nuclear war, and getting a "well everyone would die horribly but it probably won't happen so don't worry" talk which promptly scared the crap out of me. Book was pretty cool from what I remember though. As for my broken military dreams, from around age 5 I wanted to be a pilot in the RAF and so after talking with the careers office around age 14, they suggested I join air cadets as soon as I could, wherein I promptly got involved in a lot of drugs and partying with occasional drill or flying experiences, and the prospect of stopping all that fun to go join up was no longer attractive, especially as all the  was starting to hippie-fie me and the thought of maybe killing people just wasn't cool maaaan.
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Jan 13, 2014 18:45
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Outside Dawg posted:If you have Netflix or Amazon video, you should check out "Chosin". Gonna throw in a strong recommendation again for "The Cold War", by the same producers as the excellent "The World at War", the Korea episode in that was informative, and when you watch the thing in series you get a good feel for the politics behind it.
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Jul 26, 2014 15:14
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BIG HEADLINE posted:If it can support being flown through the air at 400+ knots, it can support the weight of two people. Back when I was an air cadet there was a widespread rumour that when the RAF had theirs delivered, a pilot tried to barrel roll one and the radome literally fell off. Seems to be bollocks, but it's quite the mental picture
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Jul 29, 2014 19:17
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AIRPOWER? Nonsense young man, It's Gavins all the way down
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Oct 1, 2014 15:08
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_firehawk posted:I am showing it as removed. It's here now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN8OoefnUPM drat nice looking aeroplane. I seem to remember stories of intercepting pilots holding up messages/porn/booze to taunt their targets, wonder if it still happens.
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Jan 24, 2015 21:18
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Fucknag posted:Question about the A-10, and the Avenger specifically. In all those videos, both the gun firing and the shells impacting are audible from pretty far away. The cannon explains itself, but why is the impact noise so loud? Are they HE rounds going off, or do they just have that much kinetic energy? Wiki says the avenger can fire HE rounds, and as they hit I see a bunch of flashes, so I'm gonna bet yes.
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Jan 25, 2015 23:33
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Does the US still run provocative B52 flights like they used to? With the Express as a source I'm surprised they aren't claiming that Maddie McCann and Diana's killer were also aboard the flight. On the other hand, with the UK finally investigating Litvinenko's murder as the next little chapter in the second cold war, it strikes me as exactly the kind of poo poo Putin would pull- Schrodinger's nuke.
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Feb 3, 2015 20:30
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Rabhadh posted:Is that it for the lightning? Just those 2 missiles? Yes, two Firestreaks or later on, Red Tops, both of which, in true MoD standards, were a bit poo poo. Couldn't fire them in cloudy conditions e.t.c Two cannon though.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:13
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Vahakyla posted:Do you want a war? Oh they would just be on holiday! I hear the area is very popular with soldiers in need of some rest
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Feb 11, 2015 22:32
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bitcoin bastard posted:A 747 with up to a hundred ALCM's aboard  Link without enough info
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Aug 15, 2015 13:11
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Seen as nuclear politics has cropped up a lot in the UK megathread in D&D I did somewhat of an effortpost on nuclear weapons, then tidied it up a bit and posted it again a month or two later. I'm gonna take a flying leap and guess a lot of you aren't british marxists and hence haven't seen it, so I'm gonna repost here in the hopes that more educated minds can tell me where I hosed up on it, and maybe some people will find it interesting reading into the UK trident program. Nuclear Weapons/Trident Effortpost II - Cobalt Thorium G Edition A brief introduction to your eventual destruction The first few fission based nuclear weapons were relatively small in explosive yield, but with early cold war paranoia, mankind's never ending passion to murder each other, and lots of research money, large fission then fusion devices became possible. We went from Experimental devices of 15 kilotons that devastated Hiroshima to 15,000kt (15 Megaton, Mt) production line bombs within a decade. The early ICBM's were very inaccurate (within a mile or two of the target was good, if it even got there), so having a vast explosive yield was really important to scoring a good hit, and any precise work or follow-up would be carried out later on during the apocalypse by nuclear armed bombers capable of greater accuracy (or by throwing loads of missiles and hoping for the best, or both, or both and a covert team with a backpack nuke- the cold war was insane). As the cold war continued, missile accuracy kept increasing, and so did "throw weight", how much could be carried. But really, really big warheads, while utterly devastating, are actually really, really inefficient- let's say you throw a 9 Megaton (9,000kt) warhead at a city- it devastates a lot of that city, but if you instead launch 8, 100kt warheads on that same single missile and spread them about with great accuracy to the vulnerable areas of a city, you can do far more damage, and you only used 800kt's worth of precious weapons grade atomic sheeeit, that you can instead throw into more warheads. Only Russia and the US keep anything really large anymore, and few of them. Why? for literally digging out the mountains that each side buried their command and control systems in. You don't need to bunker-bust (although nuclear bunker busters have been developed) you simply dig, dig, dig with dat atomic fire. Really- if the mountain won't come to Mohammed, he just takes the top off like a freshly boiled egg. Anyway, it sounds counter-intuitive, that I use less than 10% of the force and yet achieve more destruction. How the hell does that work eh? As my first act as Mayor of London... Well. Charity begins at home and all that.  Lets airburst a 9 Megaton bomb over the London eye, at just the right height to make the most of it.  Well okay, that looks pretty effective. But what do the rings actually mean? At pretty much light speed the outermost ring will have many fires start on susceptible materials, people exposed to the explosion get third degree burns, it's going to be a lovely time for anyone exposed- they probably won't be able to count on much of a fire brigade to help either. Building damage, by the time the blast wave comes, is all but minimal bar glass starting to break maybe about two thirds of the way into the outermost ring (with notable blast damage to buildings starting and increasing from here), and hence most people in buildings in the outer zone have good protection from all aspects. Next ring in (the vaguely grey one about halfway in), the blast pressure from the warhead is 5psi and above, things start getting super lovely for people indoors. Buildings don't like 5psi at all, you can probably expect high fatalities in your average exposed council house, because broken and smashed in houses are guaranteed, and the contents of those will feed the firestorm that will soon rage there. Thick concrete building? Well, that's probably not much protection by 10psi. Next ring, 20psi, just stop worrying about any chance of survival or any of the gory details from there on in. Nowt's coming out. What does that mean for attacking what makes London a useful city Well that strike kinda sucked really, when you consider the power you unleashed. London City airport and Heathrow are both gonna be damaged but still largely functional very quickly (drat the terminals, a lot of the function is the long stretches of runway, which are hard to kill), you just lost a lot of governmental buildings and a lot of people, but largely, a lot of what's left of London's docks and industry are relatively unscathed. I also used the word "exposed". London is really built up so there's a lot to absorb the shockwave- somewhere like Wembley, with a lot of built up area inbetween will have noticeably less damage than equally distanced Kingston on Thames, because Wimbledon common isn't a great shock absorber compared with concrete and brick. The reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki got so hosed over with tiny (15kt and 21kt) bombs had a lot down to the wood and paper buildings being taken out entirely with the kind of blast/heat that your average council house would laugh at (outer part of the yellow zone)- concrete buildings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki survived close to ground zero (because really, 15-20kt is small). What about a bunch of smaller nukes on one missile, like you said before? So let's airburst a 100kT device over the London eye, see how that looks.  Well, that was really quite poo poo compared to that 9 Megaton beast, wasn't it? That's why we packed 7 more on this missile, though. Let's MIRV it up.  Zap! Kapow! Whammo!  That still looks like a LOT less destruction at first, but lets look closely... gently caress, there go both Heathrow and London City airport that we failed to kill last time, and there goes any chance of London being used as a port for a very long time- all obliterated in concentrated blasts. I could even make groundbursts in selected areas just to make super-duper sure of harder targets if I wanted. I then just stuck the rest of the warheads on large industrial looking areas. I probably killed less people outright than the 9Mt blast, but killed a lot more infrastructure and production. The remaining people have other concerns too, like being wounded and/or on fire in a city thats largely on fire and ground zero for fallout. Fallout: Londons Burning I probably don't have to explain that all the radioactive materials used here are also not particularly pleasant to have around- a lot of what was in the bomb is now a variety of exotic, highly radioactive elements, and the nuclear explosion itself created even more through neutron activation- where the initial radiation blast transmutes friendly everyday elements into their isotropically devious brethren. All of this highly radioactive soup is mixing in with the boiling hot dust, soot, branches of Gregg's, steam and ashes that used to be 8 parts of London and it gets carried up far into the stratosphere, from where it will rain cancerous death. Oh, and most of what makes a modern city is pretty flammable and toxic/radioactive/loving rank/carcinogenic/mutagenic when burnt, and a lot of it's on fire- and don't forget all those chemical plants, oil refineries/depots, all especial nuclear targets. This all blows steadily away on prevailing winds, and if you are downwind, you are in for it in a really nasty way. Lets look at a fallout map of the 9Mt hit on London.  This is an idealised plot for rads per hour that has the wind blowing with a constant speed/direction e.t.c- a real life one would meander a bit, but the idea to remember is that it spreads out in this flame effect. The outer ring of the massive turd laying over the nation? 1 to 10 rads per hour. Any dose is bad, but 1-10 per hour isn't too bad on the scale of things here- increased cancer risk e.t.c, this is where the protect and survive shelters might help a fair bit. As you go in from there, that's where you start getting significant, prompt radiation sickness. 25 and above and you start seeing radiation burns. The third ring in? that's where you start looking at 100 rads per hour, which is kind of unhelpful given that 3-400 rads in a day is where you start dying by making GBS threads and puking your innards out. Next one in? 1,000 rads per hour. A 1,000 rads in a day is lethal in almost all cases, and that dose is happening in an hour. The last ring? 1750 rads per hour. Proper hosed, before ze Germanium gets there. Nukemap won't model accurately above that and to be honest there wasn't much point above 1,000. The half lives of the real nasties ranges from a few days to a few years (remember, anyone trying to scare you with "radiations that will last for millions/billions of years" (as often heard around nuclear power/waste processing) is an idiot, elements are scary when they are pissing themselves away in a few days or months and letting the energy out promptly- like the above picture). Fallout is something that can be prepared for quite well if you are in an intact house, and you can stay there for a few weeks- it's the ashes and particulate that are "hot" radioactively, so if you can put as much stuff between you and that as you can, figure a way to not breathe particulate and sit around as long as you can while the nastiest stuff decays away, it's not much of a concern over a scale of days and weeks of living, but you now run a phenomenally high risk of cancer (and all those other pesky concerns of post nuclear holocaust Britain, like having to fend off rad-foxes and mutant badger-guai while munching squirrel on a stick). The poisons from the smoke of all the stuff that's burning, that however can't easily be avoided without filtration systems though. But that's assuming one city. Something like this happening to tens or hundreds of large cities throughout the world would probably be enough to approach full-on nuclear winter. That in, and of itself is a thorny issue- there isn't a great deal of useful data, a lot of potential scenarios and so hence a great deal of speculation- but that speculation seems to broadly range from a "well, with a regional, limited nuclear war, we might only be like 60-75% hosed", to "oh, look, we made a radioactive ice-storm planet". Regardless to say, the damage threshold for global consequences is low, and the number of targets and nuclear weapons very high. Crops might not grow at all for years, or decades for anything like proper growth, and when all the crap did finally fall out of the stratosphere, the damage to the ozone layer would have been phenomenal, and now the Sun will be frying everyone with massive UV levels. So what the gently caress is Trident anyway  Trident is the UK's current Nuclear weapons program as a whole, and the name of the missile carried (UGM133- Trident II) on the 4 Vanguard submarines (HMS Vanguard, Victorious, Vigilant, Venegance- at least the names aren't half bad, but as a navy without an extant HMS Gay Viking we should hang our heads in shame). Each can carry 16 submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBM), and each missile is technically capable of carrying 14 warheads, the START 1 treaty limits deployed warheads per missile to 8. Each missile has penetration aids  ("chaff", fake radar emitters and mylar balloons e.t.c to fool radars, stealth coatings applied to the MIRV bus), and its likely that each warhead spot not used on a missile has a fake warhead- all to limit to efficiency of anti-ballistic missile systems. Range of the missiles is 4-6,000+ miles depending on how many warheads are packed, with an accuracy of around 100 metres. Range of the submarines is limited only by foodstocks and maintenance requirements- it's possible for them to sail around the world submerged multiple times.The warheads are UK built from US/UK designs, and there are around 180-200 cores and assemblies available (an exact number is impossible to find), with around 140-160 built weapons at any time. Explosive yield is variable with three selections- 0.3kt, 5 to 10kt and 100kt are available by a flick of a switch. Building more is technically very easy, as a large stockpile of weapons grade material exists (there was once a much larger stockpile of weapons, and the material in them is still stored away)- all that remains is putting it together correctly. The missile stock is shared between US and UK submarines, with the UK having a supply of 58 or so at any time. This is the closest the US comes to any kind of control- if they breached the agreements and withheld missiles the UK would be stuck with the 58 currently held, and make their own servicing arrangements/replacement missile. Normally, 1 or 2 submarines are on operational patrol, with 1 or 2 training and a further one on refit/shakedown. Currently less than a full loadout of missiles and warheads (8 missiles, 40 or so warheads) are carried, but that can change very rapidly if required- Trident was just coming into force as the first cold war wound down, it was designed with a lot more destruction in mind, and all the key pieces to vastly increase the destructive power are intact- technically, two submarines could put nearly 450 warheads on target, assuming full missiles on full submarines. Important note- having less submarines, as some have proposed to reduce costs, has an obviously dramatic effect in how many missiles you can throw around, and exacerbates any problems with maintenance, or the chance of losing a sub to unforeseen circumstances. The cost of a submarine itself is around a hundredth of the cost of trident as a whole and hence it's somewhat of a lame-duck option- you don't save much and you lose a lot of capability. Ok, so how does it get used, and how effective is it?  In short, the people who are right now in control of the UK's nuclear weapons are the Submarine's Captain, the XO, and the weapons officer, on each deployed submarine. If all three of them agree, they don't need special permission or anything like that, they pick targets, unlock a safe for the codes and they launch missiles. Now, technically, they should be waiting on release of the weapons, and some idea of where to fire them at. But I just want to make it clear, that right now in relative peacetime, that operational control is already at the hands of the submarine itself- that's rare compared to other services, but makes sense given it's largely a second strike force, and the sole remaining part of the deterrent. Now, lets say a PM, or their elected "other" (they can propose a few people to be responsible if they are busy being dead/covering up paedophila/unwell/murdering child prostitutes/on holiday/e.t.c) decides they want to bust out the nukes in response to the perfidious Soviet threat. Military aides work with them to choose targets and yields, and then this is communicated to a Royal Navy base and then to the submarine/s by undersea magic and authenticated with codes held in the safe. Otherwise, in the event of being unable to contact any part of the chain of command for a set period (and yes, being unable to get radio 4 is part of the apocalypse) they get to open up the letter of last resort (like that fucker didn't get steamed open on the mess kettle 15 mins after sailing). This is written by the PM and will give options upon armageddon ranging from "AVENGE US" to "give yourself up to the UN/US/Immortan Joe/The RSPCA". It isn't a detailed set of targets, the Captain and XO would be given free reign to retaliate (or not). The UK holds a small nuclear arsenal, but it's far more than sufficient to render 10 large cities useless, and hence, seen as it can be launched reliably in a second strike (submarines are ace for this), it's more than a capable deterrent force. With 2 attacking submarines you have 32 missiles tubes available, and only enough warheads for around 20 so you can spread those warheads out over the 32 total missiles, and you suddenly have lots more room for more penetration aids/fake warheads ( ) that further lower the effectiveness of ABM shields, but hell, only about half the warheads need to make it anyway to give us the kind of strike we got on London, on ten different cities or smaller strikes on more cities/military bases/industrial assets/porn stashes/whatever. There's a whole lot of talk on counter-force, counter-value e.t.c but to be frank, it's boring and can just be boiled down to attacking purely military targets, industry/population (they tend to be intertwined) or both. It's the capability to do so that matters to MAD.To be a viable deterrent the nuclear forces need to be just strong enough- no need for too much overkill. Strong enough for what? Strong enough for MAD. It's worth pointing out that all other Nuclear armed nations other than the US/Russia only hold deterrent level quantities (or three tenths of gently caress all nukes, like North Korea presently possess). Are you MAD?  MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. It works real good until it doesn't work, and then things turn to poo poo in a major way. To have MAD, each side must be convinced the other side can strike back with crippling force, no matter how good the initial strike by the aggressor is. Hence, second strike capability must have two attributes- redundancies to allow it to be fired in retaliation even if the command and control system is dead, and protection/number of warheads necessary to ensure that a strong enough deterrent gets through. In the UK's case, this amounts to the letter of last resort, having submarines on constant nuclear patrol, and having a combination of warheads/number of decoys and penetration aids/other classified magics deemed enough to work their way through an ABM system. While the UK has never renounced a first strike, the entire set-up is a perfect second strike, revenge system. It's range lets it serve as a first strike weapon though- if I was going to do that, however, the subs would close in as far as possible to the target first, as reduced flight times are reduced warning times. But no nation holds enough warheads for a "proper", all out strike with any hope of crippling the enemy enough to prevent retaliation- that would break MAD anyway. Assuming MAD holds, no-one wants to start a nuclear exchange, because no matter how well they hit first, they might as well have nuked all their own best cities anyway. What that also means is, if MAD breaks down and a nuclear exchange begins, it's very easy given the disruption caused to command and control that contingency plans (like the letter of last resort, other nations have their own contingency plans/systems) would go into place, and very large numbers of weapons would quickly get used both by the aggressor and responding nation. Then we get a situation where "Threads", frankly, looks like the palest imaginable shadow of the true horrors that will unfold. MAD is unlikely to break down through the ways wars traditionally start- for this we can look at the cold war, the only time both sides belligerently ramped the tension quite to the edge was the Cuban missile crisis (for example, 2/3 of the command crew on a Soviet nuclear armed sub, thinking that war were declared, wanted to waste a bit of the US blockade with a nuclear tipped torpedo rather than die to depth charges but surfaced instead to find war not declared just yet). But, on many, many other occasions, human and mechanical fuckups almost triggered an accidental release of weapons- or worse, during a time of tension, one side misinterprets the others intention, sees a hostile strike as all but certain and then plans a pre-emptive strike, like Able Archer in 1983- the Soviets were certain NATO was gonna go for the throat, and they got ready to launch, or a few months before that when Stanislav Petrov bravely stuck a wrench in the gears of a Soviet Nuclear warmachine under false indicators of attack. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of small and large events that could have already led to the apocalypse, they just weren't lined up right- but like the Swiss cheese model all that needs to happen, essentially is time. As time progresses, especially as the second cold war is getting well into pace, more incidents will happen, and again and again the world will have to trust to chance and circumstance that it doesn't turn to the apocalypse by idiotic accident/over-reaction. That, and MAD only holds out for certain situations- if a state gave weapons up to other groups that then used them, it may be unclear as to who supplied them initially (it's feasible that detailed radiological analysis could point towards where the weapon materials were mined/refined, but that would take time) which could cause a confused response. Conflicts like the cold war between Iran and Saudi Arabia, where there are many factions in play, could be a horrific mess if it turned hot, especially if control/security of the weapons isn't very closely maintained. Report to the vault overseer, hardworking Briton who got on in today's up and atom world  So what happens afterwards? All this gets used and the world burns, fallout poisons vast swathes of what didn't get burnt up. Nuclear winter happens to whatever extent it does. Some nations won't be as badly hit depending on how bad it happens, but in the turmoil afterwards I could easily imagine more wars between emergent/remaining powers over the scraps of good territory/resources that are left. There certainly wouldn't be much taboo to stop them turning nuclear too. Civilisation as we know it certainly dies, perhaps even as a globally connected civilisation we fade away for awhile, but humans are spread all over the globe in some pretty remote places- I can't imagine an outright holocaust of the whole human race, but I can imagine it being hundreds to even thousands of years before we start to approach the same kind of level of civilisation we have now, and certainly a death knell for many animal/plant/fish species. The government has detailed plans of how to continue government in the event of pretty much anything (the first priority of a state is to ensure the survival of the state), but in an all out attack the UK is a crowded isle with many targets and little is likely to survive. Very little money was ever put into UK civil defence in the event of a nuclear war even from early on, and few nations ever did (Switzerland is a key example of a nation who spent, see the further reading list). Top level government/her royal madge had/has multiple plans including living on ships and staying constantly on the move- quite early on it seems to have been realised that no bunker was ever going to be strong enough or secret enough to keep anything truly safe, large scale blast/fallout shelters like BURLINGTON were abandoned before they finished in favour of a larger network of smaller, less important/vital deep level bunkers and special arrangements for anything else (in Burlington's case, the KGB knew exactly where, what it was intended for, and how many megatons to kill it even before work even began). Civil defence could work well to an extent theoretically (given investment and time), some of the stuff in "Protect and survive" is valuable stuff for staying alive for awhile before dying from the longer term effects- if you are in areas it would work (I.E. out of the yellow circles, not in a severe fallout zone). If you were anywhere near a target, it was busy work for the hours before the apocalypse. Futhermore, there presents somewhat of a paradox- if you invest heavily as a nation in the capacity to survive a nuclear war better, you may be targeted more or have your civil defence capabilities picked out especially for destruction- MAD abhors a vacuum. If the nuclear war is large enough, then there isn't any real point in keeping people safe from the heat and blast only to have them inevitably die from radiation or starvation in the following weeks anyway. From the war plans we know of, government would hand power to what would essentially be regional governments- formed from the personnel of whatever bunkers survived- who had the power and sway of an angry old testament god- all property would be the government's, death penalties for minor crimes, sick/disabled people starved to death (even more so than normal), prisoners in jails to be released or shot (prisons tend to make good fortresses that are often slightly off the beaten track, with plenty of spartan accomodation) even lists of undesirables to be eliminated- the full dictatorship package. But don't worry. You will probably be dead long, long before then
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Oct 17, 2015 23:58
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Arglebargle III posted:Lol @ US/UK designed Trident. Effort full post though guv. Trying to persuade people away from the whole urban legend of "well the US president actually holds the codes anyway so we can't launch" was hard enough, but yeah that could do with a bit of polish/more history thanks right arm posted:Jesus Christ. That bad, eh?
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Oct 18, 2015 00:25
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