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I don't know much about security, but check out this post: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3303022&pagenumber=10#post390112048
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Apr 16, 2011 05:27
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From what I can tell, you'd have to actually be a programmer first to get experience in the industry, and then branch out into that afterwards? It's not something they really teach you in school (though, I took a security class, so I know the very basics about security). The really cool, nitty gritty stuff, that's more along the lines of grad-level research at universities. The security firms I've heard of generally do stuff like auditing (fairly automated) or creating honeypot software (at which point you're mostly being a programmer). When I want to gently caress around with my CS degree in a security-type context, I actually just go play lovely web games with goons. Every once in a while I'll find a game that's poorly written and I'll mess around with that. I know some application-level security, enough to not leave major security holes in my code, and to notice when other people do, but I think you'd really be wanting at least a Master's and probably a Doctorate if you wanted to do something truly innovative and exciting, and then it'd be mostly R&D work.
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Apr 20, 2011 12:52
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Goonamatic posted:Im currently interviewing. This is very addictive. As for things I look for when I interview people... I look for people who are good problem solvers. Maybe they don't know how to solve a particular problem, but I enjoy listening to their thought process while they are thinking of the problem, even if they get it wrong. I don't care if someone has a degree or not, but they should have knowledge of algorithms, data structures, etc (things that are typically included in degree coursework). Specifically, I mainly interview for .NET positions, so I also look for people who are staying up-to-date with the latest framework. Things like Linq, MVC Framework, etc. Maybe they haven't used these in a practical setting, but it shows that they are interested in development and are at least staying abreast of the newest technologies. Here's a scenario that'll fail someone immediately and I always screen with it... Q: What type of collections do you use most? A: Array, ArrayList Q: What is a Generic List? A: (vague, uncertain response) This tells me they're stuck in .NET 1.1 and speaks worlds about their coding habits and standards. I also want to reiterate the fact that I'd rather you say "I don't know" to a pointed question, rather than spew bullshit. It's a waste of both our time. An exception to this would be answering an open-ended question or theoretical problem. For example I may ask something like this... Q: What is the difference between a clustered and non-clustered index? A: Clustered indexes are stored sequentially on disk. If they don't get this right (or tell me they don't know), I'll tell them the answer, and then ask... Q: How many clustered indexes can you have on one table? If they didn't get the first question right, then they should at least be able to deduce the answer to the follow-up based on the answer I gave them (ONE). A more advanced question to test problem-solving skills would be... Suppose I have an Employee table with EmployeeID (guid, PK) and Age (int). Based on use-cases, I know that I will be selecting employees based on "where EmployeeID = X" or "where Age between A and B". How would you index this table? I'm looking for someone to think to themselves "well, if we're selecting a range of values based on Age, then I should cluster the Age index on disk to reduce I/O time". Hence, you would create a clustered index on Age and a non-clustered index on EmployeeID. For what it's worth, most people get this wrong. However, if someone were to tell me they don't know what a clustered index is, and they're able to think through the follow-up questions based on my answer, then they are automatically on the top of my list because they've demonstrated that they can pick up and apply knowledge quickly and accurately.
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Apr 20, 2011 17:10
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John Matrix posted:A more advanced question to test problem-solving skills would be... I think a better answer would be "show me your use case data", but that's just me. Perhaps you only select on Age once a month but do many selects and joins on EmployeeID daily.
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Apr 20, 2011 18:50
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I didn't want to make a new thread about this and thought this might be the most appropriate location for it. The situation is, I've been in IT since I was 16. I started as a desktop support intern. I have worked as a web template designer, graphic designer, Desktop support tech (5 years experience), Software Tester/Systems Administrator (2), Network Administrator(2), and managed projects, purchases, etc. Basically I'm a superstar IT guy with a bunch of experience at the age of 25 without a lot of dedication to a specific role, but a lot of experience in IT. I'm having one lovely rear end hell of a time securing interviews lately and the pay seems to be going down everywhere I look. Having an associates degree probably doesn't help with that, but that's what I get for thinking "Oh man, $42,000 a year when I'm 20? Why go to college!" and starting my job as a systems admin. When I WAS in college, I was initially on path to do Embedded systems Java programming. I have a few basic Java courses (I have designed noah's ark and breeded his animals with the magic of Java), I have done some Visual Studio (VB.net), and know enough about PHP to hack apart wordpress themes and make them do what I want, but not enough to build anything in PHP from scratch. Basically, I can read and/or mostly code, but can't write it myself. Lately in an effort to make myself more valuable and foreseeing the future of computers, I feel that learning to program for web purposes would be very smart. I'm looking at python and php, maybe rails as a focus. My questions are: 1) Am I crazy? Should I stick with IT or drop it like a bad habit? 2) How long will it take for this to pay off? Can I expect to hop right in and get a job as an entry level guy making 50k+ in 6 months? 3) If my goal is to be web oriented, not application oriented, what kind of languages and practices should I stick to? Should I just go grab a Head First book and go to town, or just start from scratch and build my own blogging platform or something. Any other questions people feel like filling in that I should have asked would be beneficial. Going to school is not an option because of time/money constraints (married, 1 child, barely making it)
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Apr 20, 2011 19:13
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baquerd posted:I think a better answer would be "show me your use case data", but that's just me. Perhaps you only select on Age once a month but do many selects and joins on EmployeeID daily. I disagree, but I'm open to discussion on it. If you're scanning an index for one id, why would the database perform better when the record data is stored sequentially, being that the index is simply a pointer to the location of the data? The only valid argument in my opinion is a performance hit when inserting and updating records, but for the purpose of demonstration is ignored. Thoughts?
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Apr 20, 2011 19:49
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Kruzen posted:I was in a similar situation at 16, but had the fortune of getting into programming projects while I was bottom-rung in the helpdesk. I quickly found that it was what I really enjoyed, and went to school to get a CS degree. The salary range depends a lot on your location and whether you're looking at an industry job or consulting position (consulting pays a bit more, but you may run the risk of traveling). I think the web technology really just depends on your preference. There are a ton of companies on the Microsoft platform, so .NET (C#) is always hot, but at the same time, the market is flooded with .NET developers who are average at best. As for a web development platform, what kind of system administration do you do? If you're typically working in a Linux scenario, you may prefer to use PHP. If you're doing Windows/IIS, your best bet is go for .NET MVC (C#). I don't think you're crazy for wanting to get away from IT (but this is coming from a software guy). I think the main thing should be... do you think you would enjoy software development as much, if not, more than your current line of work? Your safest way to make the transition may be to start trying to pick up some projects at your current company, and try to shoehorn your way into a title change. Then use it as a launching pad into another company. The title change at your existing company won't earn you a huge salary increase, but the lateral move to another company is where you can see the jump in pay. Another option would be to just start learning the crap out of this stuff on your off-time, then try to make the jump (may be quicker). Anyway, that's just some food for thought.
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Apr 20, 2011 20:07
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John Matrix posted:I disagree, but I'm open to discussion on it. If you're scanning an index for one id, why would the database perform better when the record data is stored sequentially, being that the index is simply a pointer to the location of the data? You never said "X" was a scalar value, it could very easily be a joined column. But at any rate, at this point in the discussion I would say to take a step back and detail the use cases because as you note your performance on the ranged queries is going to be impacted significantly more than the employee IDs if not clustered.
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Apr 20, 2011 20:26
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John Matrix posted:I was in a similar situation at 16, but had the fortune of getting into programming projects while I was bottom-rung in the helpdesk. I quickly found that it was what I really enjoyed, and went to school to get a CS degree. The salary range depends a lot on your location and whether you're looking at an industry job or consulting position (consulting pays a bit more, but you may run the risk of traveling). I spent some time going through some PHP tutorials @ PHPBuddy (Up through working with SQL) and it seems to make quick and easy sense to me (so far). My current company is underwater and I am most likely getting let go in the next two months if something doesn't change, which is what prompted me to start looking and start trying to figure out some other options for careers, otherwise It would be a great way to shoehorn my way into a developer position here because that's what this company does (makes web software). A buddy of mine has a HEad First PHP book I'm going to pick up from him, should be a good way to get started.
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Apr 21, 2011 17:12
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Kruzen posted:A buddy of mine has a HEad First PHP book I'm going to pick up from him, should be a good way to get started. Good luck on developing your skills.  I just want to point out that I've read (or at least skimmed) a lot of books on PHP / other web languages and Head First by far came out as the worst. Their explanations seemed to be convoluted and the flow of their examples are bizarre and sometimes off the mark. Also the photography in the book is really irritating, and takes up a good amount of page real estate (not that this really matters, it's just annoying).I really liked the Visual Quickpro Guides. They are well laid out and explanations of ideas seem to be concise. Perhaps I was in a bad mood when I was looking at Head First, but I hope this at least let's you know that there's plenty of great (better?) books on PHP. kimbo305 posted:Edit: thanks for all your advice! Bag of Carpets fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 21, 2011 |
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Apr 21, 2011 23:35
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Woohoo! I've got a followup interview monday for my first dev job. I want to review before, any pointers on what to study, or have a good link for entry-level dev interview tips? I'm primarily versed in C++ if that helps. Thanks!
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Apr 22, 2011 22:08
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Data structures and basic algorithms. List manipulations, arrays of numbers. What kind of dev job is it? C++ stuff, or will you be picking up another language for it? If it's C++, maybe stuff about memory allocation. Review some string manipulation (palindromes, substrings, reversing, etc). Brush up on trees and basic search algorithms and their best/worst case complexities (do this for lists too). Maybe brush up on the 7-layer model, if you think you might do some of that stuff. protip: don't forget the weird uses of your basic operators for stuff like this: You have 99 distinct numbers from 1-100, how do you find the missing number? You have an even number of most numbers, and an odd number of one number. How do you find the one that appears an odd number of times? If possible, try to remember whatever stuff in the standard lib you use most often, and anything from the libs your profs from school might have mentioned to you. It looks like you're still a student, or were one last semester or something, so they should mostly be asking you basic questions about algorithms and how to do things, but they might ask you a design question like "how would you design a deck of cards" or "how would you design a parking lot". I was interviewing for jobs a month ago (then I got one yay), so I was brushing up on interview stuff quite recently, and that's what I remember as being important. Hope it helps!
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Apr 23, 2011 11:30
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A MIRACLE posted:Woohoo! I've got a followup interview monday for my first dev job. I want to review before, any pointers on what to study, or have a good link for entry-level dev interview tips? I'm primarily versed in C++ if that helps. Thanks! There's nothing you could possibly review. It isn't going to change the interviewer's ability to see whether you're a good developer or not. Edit: Uh, well, you might want to make sure that if they ask you about a project you've worked on in the past, that you can give a good description of what you did. Edit: What the gently caress is the 7-layer model? What kind of person would care whether you know about some obscure stuff like that? Edit: Seriously, if anybody walks into the interview room and asks you what ethernet is you tell him to gently caress off, what kind of bullshit question is that, all you're paid to do is send/recv bytes on a TCP stream and maybe fiddle with NODELAY. Then ask him if he feels smug knowing trivia most people don't deal with. shrughes fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Apr 23, 2011 |
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Apr 23, 2011 13:21
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Colbear posted:Thank you very much! It's a web developer position, and I'll be picking up .NET stuff on the job. They didn't seem to mind on the phone interview that I've never used it before.
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Apr 23, 2011 13:55
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A MIRACLE posted:Woohoo! I've got a followup interview monday for my first dev job. I want to review before, any pointers on what to study, or have a good link for entry-level dev interview tips? I'm primarily versed in C++ if that helps. Thanks! Also think of some good questions for you to ask them -- personal development & training, career progression, that sort of thing.
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Apr 23, 2011 14:20
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Is this a good place to post CVs for critiques? I have an interview for an internship with netcraft at the end of May and all the stuff they seem to do programming-wise I really don't have much experience with, reckon that will be much of a problem?
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Apr 23, 2011 15:18
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Standish posted:have answers ready for all the usual bullshit questions that they love in HR, like "what is your greatest weakness" or or "where do you see yourself in 5 years time" or "tell me about a time you worked as part of a team" or "tell me about a problem you had in work and how you solved it" or "how would you resolve an interpersonal problem with another team member?". This is good advice. The interview is going to be roundtable style with the other developers. The company itself is only 9 people -- is there anything in particular I should prepare for with such a small company?
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Apr 23, 2011 15:23
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Average starting salary is an incredibly bad measure, careerwise (I mean one that spans 20+ years) In actuallity you want to start with the lowest average salary, beacuse it means youre more likely to get an actual job (lower demand) versus being unemployed forever
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Apr 26, 2011 16:36
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Melted_Igloo posted:Average starting salary is an incredibly bad measure, careerwise I thought it was average offers. Your starting wage determines your lifetime wage, for better or worse, in a big way. Lifetime earnings of people who entered the workforce in a recession is much lower than people who started in boom times. This is why I'm kind of glad I'm still in school. Nevertheless, I'd rather throw my chips in with high growth and high offers.
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Apr 26, 2011 19:12
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2banks1swap.avi posted:Your starting wage determines your lifetime wage, for better or worse, in a big way. Lifetime earnings of people who entered the workforce in a recession is much lower than people who started in boom times. This is only true statistically, as in when you look at a population as a whole. In practice you will have many real and potential opportunities to drastically improve your salary if only you have the proper skillsets and ability to apply them. You want to match your salary to your skillset and ability as well as your regional information. You don't want to undersell yourself, top performers can still easily find jobs. baquerd fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Apr 26, 2011 |
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Apr 26, 2011 19:27
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Melted_Igloo posted:Average starting salary is an incredibly bad measure, careerwise  What? This makes no sense. Why would you want a job in a field with low demand, and more importantly, why would low demand increase your odds of getting a job? Are you seriously suggesting that if nobody cares about your skill set, that makes you LESS likely to be unemployed?
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Apr 26, 2011 19:30
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baquerd posted:This is only true statistically, as in when you look at a population as a whole. In practice you will have many real and potential opportunities to drastically improve your salary if only you have the proper skillsets and ability to apply them. And if you know how to ask for a promotion/raise (evidence, BATNA etc) and do so regularly
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Apr 26, 2011 19:31
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baquerd posted:This is only true statistically, because If I'm extremely savvy and lucky then yes I won't fit in with the rest of the sample group because I'd by definition not be in the sample group because of my savvy making me an outlier. Luck can't be accounted for anyway. The problem is that everyone is trying to move on to some degree, though there's most likely a distribution of riskiness on the part of the workers. Nevertheless, statistics don't stop working just because I feel like drinking the coolaid and dive into it thinking the rules don't apply to me. It just irks me a great deal. There is no such thing as "only statistically true." That means it IS true. If you're giving me a pep talk you might as well say "well I sure hope you're super talented because that means as a super-talented person you'll do better!"
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Apr 26, 2011 19:49
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Cicero posted:
I think he means the laborer's demand for a wage as opposed to demand for a given worker's skillset. Pop-econ 
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Apr 26, 2011 19:52
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Cicero posted:
More demand for a specific type of skill (say COBOL), does not equate to more jobs Very unlike the usual demand/supply economics that everyone is taught Melted_Igloo fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Apr 26, 2011 |
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Apr 26, 2011 20:12
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Melted_Igloo posted:More demand for a specific type of skill (say COBOL), does not equate to more jobs It often means they'll pay more for people who need it, depending on how keen the workers are on demanding wages and benefits for having that. But yes, you're right. Supply curves aren't always sloped positively or demand negatively, and the elasticity of both is not what many people think they are. But no, chasing lower wages doesn't mean you'll have more job openings 
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Apr 26, 2011 20:58
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2banks1swap.avi posted:It just irks me a great deal. There is no such thing as "only statistically true." That means it IS true. If you're giving me a pep talk you might as well say "well I sure hope you're super talented because that means as a super-talented person you'll do better!" 1. "Lifetime salaries are on average lower for people who start work in a recession." 2. "My lifetime salary will be lower because I stared work in a recession." 1 does not cause/imply 2, it is merely correlated. You're treating the recession like everyone takes X% off their salaries, when it's just not that simple.
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Apr 26, 2011 21:17
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baquerd posted:1. "Lifetime salaries are on average lower for people who start work in a recession." It's not deterministically set in stone, no. My CHANCES are changed as far as what an actuary would have to say about me, though, and that's factual. While I can do this or that to sway it, I'm still going to have to face reality! An INDIVIDUAL can try to make it better for himself or herself, but the fact remains that among the entire group, they will average out making less money than a group which started out in better times! Then again I'm just now finishing up my first sophomore semester, so with any luck I'll start in a better job market myself.
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Apr 26, 2011 22:05
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baquerd posted:This is only true statistically, as in when you look at a population as a whole. In practice you will have many real and potential opportunities to drastically improve your salary if only you have the proper skillsets and ability to apply them. That's very true, I entered the workforce making a horrible salary, and 7 years later, it's triple what it was when I started. Now I make a reasonable salary for the field I'm in. I did have an amazing bit of luck when I changed jobs last; I said "I was making X, I want 20% more than that" and they didn't even bat an eye, because it was right in the middle of the posted salary range, and it was fair for the job/my level of experience at the time. A lot of employers would have balked or tried to lowball me, but this one didn't!
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Apr 27, 2011 02:54
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2banks1swap.avi posted:It's not deterministically set in stone, no. Dude, you've been posting across multiple forums and threads here obsessing about salaries and your earnings potential. Whatever tactical decisions you make about engineering vs. CS or when you leave school or taking the highest paying job are going to be outweighed by the fact that right now you are an older student with a mediocre GPA ~2.0 at a CC and as far as I can tell no relevant work experience. Focus on getting your grades up, get some good internships and build a portfolio of projects (e.g. FOSS) on the side.
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Apr 27, 2011 11:51
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shrike82 posted:Dude, you've been posting across multiple forums and threads here obsessing about salaries and your earnings potential. Whatever tactical decisions you make about engineering vs. CS or when you leave school or taking the highest paying job are going to be outweighed by the fact that right now you are an older student with a mediocre GPA ~2.0 at a CC and as far as I can tell no relevant work experience. If you've been reading my post history, how do you think I have a 2.0? I started with a 12 credit hour 2.0 and it's now a 2.78. I have over a 3.0 at the new school I'm in! If you'e going to play that card, do more than skim, please! The argument over people who doesn't understand statistics is because "Yeah well it's statistically true but that doesn't apply to me or individuals" irritates the ever loving piss out of me. Yes it does. You're not special, neither are they. Nevertheless, even if I did have a literally lovely GPA, pursuing the highest growth is in my best interest, which was my point. People saying that it doesn't matter should probably consider retaking statistics at some point if they haven't taken it yet. Reality applies to everyone, even college kids and white collar professionals. Anyway, what the hell is FOSS? I'm seeking internships but I can't get any through my Community College, which is why I'm trying to finish my AA and get to a University ASAP.
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Apr 27, 2011 13:24
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2banks1swap.avi posted:You're not special, neither are they. Real life tends to segregate into special and non-special rather abruptly, but special people do exist. In fact we could even loosely define them as the top 10% or so of productive workers who tend to skew the salaries when they're compensated fairly. quote:Pursuing the highest growth is in my best interest, which was my point. People saying that it doesn't matter should probably consider retaking statistics at some point if they haven't taken it yet. Reality applies to everyone, even college kids and white collar professionals. Your point is invalid because the problem space grossly dwarfs your vector space so far. Again, seizing individual opportunities will determine your growth so much more than any general market movements that to try to plan around the movements becomes pointless. Forest for the tress.
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Apr 27, 2011 14:17
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2banks1swap.avi posted:The argument over people who doesn't understand statistics is because "Yeah well it's statistically true but that doesn't apply to me or individuals" irritates the ever loving piss out of me. Yes it does. You're not special, neither are they. Focus more on what you can do to succeed than studies of average earnings. Do some casual job browsing. What sorts of positions seem available to someone with your credentials? Do they match up with your earnings expectations? Perhaps this python pseudo-code will help. code:Hopefully what the pseudo-code helps to illustrate is that what is more important than the statistical earnings trend is A) having good credentials and knowledge and B) actually being able to find a job that will pay what you want. No matter where the statistical earnings trendline is you can become better compensated by improving the my_credentials part of that pseudo-code. Thus, in order to become better compensated you should focus on what you can control, improving your credentials, rather than that which you cannot control, statistical average salaries. If what you're really about is making a ton of cash I suggest you give up on the idea of working as a programmer for someone else. $63k may seem like a lot of money but I can assure you it is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Any idea how much a house costs? You're gonna be in debt for the next 40 years just to have a place to live and a car to drive. Then once (if) you're finally out of debt you'll be paying property taxes just to keep the stuff you worked for so long to have.
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Apr 27, 2011 15:03
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baquerd posted:Real life tends to segregate into special and non-special rather abruptly, but special people do exist. In fact we could even loosely define them as the top 10% or so of productive workers who tend to skew the salaries when they're compensated fairly. Right. In any field you'll have exceptional people. Being exceptional helps you in any field. You're still going to have more leverage as a worker in a field where there's more demand for your work! baquerd posted:Your point is invalid because the problem space grossly dwarfs your vector space so far. Again, seizing individual opportunities will determine your growth so much more than any general market movements that to try to plan around the movements becomes pointless. Forest for the tress. So, you mean to say that the growth rate of a sector, and thus the rate at which new jobs are demanded, doesn't affect my individual opportunities, even though it affects the number of opportunities I'll have given a skill set which determines which sector I can even get a job in? You'e basically going "If you're hot poo poo you'll get a job." Wonderful. How many other people are hot poo poo? Most people reading this post are not hot poo poo. Mos workers and most people are not hot poo poo. Even if you are, you still have better job prospects in a growing field than in one that is growing slower or not at all! I don't understand why you feel that doesn't matter. Then again, I don't think I'm hot poo poo.
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Apr 27, 2011 21:16
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Dren posted:You have utterly missed my point, and I wonder why it's so hard to make it. I'll try again. I want STABILITY. STABILITY has many factors in it. Some of these include keeping your job because you're needed, being given benefits because you're needed, being paid well because you're needed, and having money to handle your personal problems and not jeopardize your job. A good indicator of how much a business will need you is how much they're willing to pay people, how fast the relevant sector is growing, and what the trends, if any are known, are. I'm not chasing money for the sake of wanting to make tons and tons of it. It's necessary for stability, which I am pursuing, so I'm obligated to seek it in my quest for stability. Obviously if you're going to graduate with a poo poo GPA or you interview badly you won't be able to negotiate for 60K right out of college. However, if enough people are negotiating that much money, it means my chances - regardless of how good I am or am not - are improved as a result. If you're hot poo poo in a field where the average is 45K, you might get 47-50. If you're hot poo poo in a field where the average is 65K, you might get 68-72! Why do people here really think that they're not affected by what happens to the wider world around them. Do you really think you can literally make your own destiny, period, and nothing matters? Why not go be a hot poo poo super-awesome burger flipper? There's a reason you're going into a good sector and not a bad one.
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Apr 27, 2011 21:27
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Melted_Igloo posted:More demand for a specific type of skill (say COBOL), does not equate to more jobs
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Apr 27, 2011 21:28
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2b1s I have a feeling that you will happiest as a "Business Analyst" at some insurance company.
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Apr 27, 2011 21:43
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Paolomania posted:2b1s I have a feeling that you will happiest as a "Business Analyst" at some insurance company. What exactly does that mean? Working hard or hardly working?
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Apr 27, 2011 22:37
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2banks1swap.avi posted:Most people reading this post are not hot poo poo. Mos workers and most people are not hot poo poo. Even if you are, you still have better job prospects in a growing field than in one that is growing slower or not at all! I don't understand why you feel that doesn't matter. So you going to fix up that recession or just stand around worrying about it affecting your earnings all day?
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Apr 27, 2011 22:53
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baquerd posted:So you going to fix up that recession or just stand around worrying about it affecting your earnings all day? I worried, then I did my homework, now I've hedged my bets. I can't do anything about my situation now except continue to apply myself in school. There really isn't much of a recession for grads in this field, anyway! If you think it's foolish to care, though, I wonder where you get your confidence from.
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Apr 27, 2011 22:57
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