Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

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baquerd: Jul 2, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

2banks1swap.avi posted:

If you're hot poo poo in a field where the average is 45K, you might get 47-50.
If you're hot poo poo in a field where the average is 65K, you might get 68-72!

Why do people here really think that they're not affected by what happens to the wider world around them. Do you really think you can literally make your own destiny, period, and nothing matters? Why not go be a hot poo poo super-awesome burger flipper? There's a reason you're going into a good sector and not a bad one.

Let's do a real world example. "Average" software engineer salary in one location is $70k a year, you'll see a lot of postings of 50-60k entry level crap. "Hot poo poo" starts at $100k a year out of college if they can negotiate well and have some exemplar background work ("hot poo poo" inevitably will).

Working on becoming "hot poo poo" >>> worrying about why you are (not) hosed because of the recession.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 22:59

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# ? Apr 20, 2024 05:37

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

baquerd posted:

Let's do a real world example. "Average" software engineer salary in one location is $70k a year, you'll see a lot of postings of 50-60k entry level crap. "Hot poo poo" starts at $100k a year out of college if they can negotiate well and have some exemplar background work ("hot poo poo" inevitably will).

Working on becoming "hot poo poo" >>> worrying about why you are (not) hosed because of the recession.

You REALLY hate it when someone suggests that poo poo happens outside of your personal control, huh? Massive locus of control disagreement going on here. At least now I know to not suggest such things when networking in the future.

For what it's worth, I realize what you're saying. That doesn't change whether or not you'd be better off being hot poo poo in Computer Science vs hot poo poo in most other things, though.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 23:05

baquerd: Jul 2, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

2banks1swap.avi posted:

You REALLY hate it when someone suggests that poo poo happens outside of your personal control, huh? Massive locus of control disagreement going on here. At least now I know to not suggest such things when networking in the future.

That the recession was out of your control was the point I was making - not to worry about it and take control of what you can.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 23:09

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

baquerd posted:

That the recession was out of your control was the point I was making - not to worry about it and take control of what you can.

That was entirely my point. Working hard where it will give you more than working hard would get you less is kind of an obvious thing to do. Simple optimization.

I know people with 4.0s and internships who can't get civil engineering jobs.

# ? Apr 27, 2011 23:17

Mike1o1: Sep 5, 2004; Tiluvas

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to transition from a business analyst to a full time software developer? I have experience creating my own Access/VBA applications, and am familiar with C# and .Net from a hobby perspective.

All my google searching finds people trying to do the opposite - going from developer to business analyst. Am I crazy for trying to do the opposite?

# ? Apr 28, 2011 03:57

baquerd: Jul 2, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Mike1o1 posted:

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to transition from a business analyst to a full time software developer? I have experience creating my own Access/VBA applications, and am familiar with C# and .Net from a hobby perspective.

All my google searching finds people trying to do the opposite - going from developer to business analyst. Am I crazy for trying to do the opposite?

"Business analyst" is the most incredibly generic job title in both scope and function. Our developers would be taking heavy pay cuts moving in that direction using our terminology.

# ? Apr 28, 2011 05:06

Piss Man 94: Jun 11, 2003

2banks1swap.avi you're being a big old nerd about this. Starting salary means gently caress all. With skills, zeal and the right amount of ruthlessness you can improve your pay grade far quicker than "average", making your starting salary irrelevant.

# ? Apr 28, 2011 11:44

The Reaganomicon: Oct 14, 2010; by Lowtax

2banks1swap.avi posted:

You REALLY hate it when someone suggests that poo poo happens outside of your personal control, huh? Massive locus of control disagreement going on here. At least now I know to not suggest such things when networking in the future.

For what it's worth, I realize what you're saying. That doesn't change whether or not you'd be better off being hot poo poo in Computer Science vs hot poo poo in most other things, though.

Connections determine where you get a job. The job you get there determines the amount of cashmoney you will acquire. Unless you're an autistic shutin or a poor that went to a degree mill, your connections will matter more than your Hot poo poo Quotient.

I mean, as a guy who supposedly did the research, I'm amazed you missed all of the loving nepotism.

# ? Apr 28, 2011 21:13

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Piss Man 94 posted:

2banks1swap.avi you're being a big old nerd about this. Starting salary means gently caress all.

Except that it doesn't. Starting salary isn't everything, but it's one indicator of healthy job prospects.

The Reaganomicon posted:

Connections determine where you get a job. The job you get there determines the amount of cashmoney you will acquire. Unless you're an autistic shutin or a poor that went to a degree mill, your connections will matter more than your Hot poo poo Quotient.

I mean, as a guy who supposedly did the research, I'm amazed you missed all of the loving nepotism.

Connections doesn't necessarily mean nepotism. Without relying on personal knowledge, that means you have to go by how well someone comes across in interviews and what their resume says. Connections, on the other hand, could easily mean "I've worked with this guy before and he knows his stuff." If you were hiring, were you prefer to hire someone that you know nothing about except what his resume says and what he said in the interview, or someone you've worked with before?

# ? Apr 28, 2011 22:23

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

The Reaganomicon posted:

Connections determine where you get a job. The job you get there determines the amount of cashmoney you will acquire. Unless you're an autistic shutin or a poor that went to a degree mill, your connections will matter more than your Hot poo poo Quotient.

I mean, as a guy who supposedly did the research, I'm amazed you missed all of the loving nepotism.

I was assuming it was so blatantly, boot-on-your-neck obvious it didn't warrant being spoken other than saying "Network" and "OH GOD INTERNSHIPS" and "first job RELAY matters". Once you get that first experience you're able to go by actual qualifications, but I do agree that your first actual chance comes down to how much elbow rubbing and palm greasing you do.

I hate this to no end. I also can't do much for it except as a goon (LOL) until I get to a University and start meeting professors. Community College doesn't exactly offer poo poo for what I'm doing, they've said my transfer University will handle it, and that's about a year out given the pile of prerequisites - the rest of calculus, physics, etc.

Obviously if I was going to start a nepotism goonproject I'd make an avatar of every shining corporate stereotype one could, so you won't see "twobanks" go get a job given I actually speak my mind on this name. But yes, to everyone who lives out the buzzwords: NEPOTISM OR YOU'RE SCREWED.

On that note, make a fake facebook with no info at all, just a pic of you looking normal and doing normal things, that is searchable, while making your own facebook NOT searchable and NOT having a picture of yourself or anything identifiable on it. That way if you have a slip of opinion and speak your mind, you don't get blacklisted or fired for it!

I've already started honing my "Hide your actual feelings and go along with the group" skills by palling around with the conserva-crew engineering student group at my school and networking with the local university's engineering department staff. DO THESE THINGS! Talk to advisers, tutors, professors, and be someone who stands out. If you're at a CC it's probably a lot easier to be remembered instead of a name on a list; if you're at a University I guess that just means try harder or nag your adviser daily.

At any rate, do extra curriculars, join student groups, do a drat internship if you get one, and don't lease or buy or finance any expensive junk until long after you can actually afford it.

# ? Apr 29, 2011 03:03

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

Cicero posted:

Except that it doesn't. Starting salary isn't everything, but it's one indicator of healthy job prospects.

Connections doesn't necessarily mean nepotism.

I realize it's a hard thing to grapple with, but literally every good job I've ever had in my brief life was a result of nepotism, be it strictly defined, or the more weak version of the word where it's an issue if "who you know" even if I wasn't literally related to them.

I'm very glad that something I've held interest in for a long time happens to offer me the stability and security I need. I just can't realize why so many people are so full of themselves they don't realize that many things completely out of their control could take it all away. If you're on the internet, you have to have been exposed to the statistics. I guess they don't comprehend them as it pertains to their working lives.

Don't even get me started on how many HR departments filter out people with 6 months or more of unemployment, calling them "unemployable" and leaving them to their fate.

# ? Apr 29, 2011 03:20

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

2banks1swap.avi posted:

I just can't realize why so many people are so full of themselves they don't realize that many things completely out of their control could take it all away. If you're on the internet, you have to have been exposed to the statistics. I guess they don't comprehend them as it pertains to their working lives.

You should try being a supergenius. Statistics don't apply to supergeniuses. Supergeniuses don't have any problems finding jobs as a software developer because employers are very thirsty for people who can actually write real code. Which is something supergeniuses can do. I'm a supergenius and I can get any job at any employer I like, and nothing can stop that except for physical brain damage.

Oh wait, did I say supergenius? Naw, I actually meant person who can actually write real code.

2banks1swap.avi posted:

Don't even get me started on how many HR departments filter out people with 6 months or more of unemployment, calling them "unemployable" and leaving them to their fate.

What about the HR departments that don't filter out people based on this? I got a job after 11 months being non-employed as soon as I started looking for a job (if you don't count the week where I learned the hard way not to sperg out on cover letters). My first two jobs after college (my only two jobs after college) both came from sending a resume out from the blue.

Here's how I got both of them, and here's how you can, TOO!

1. Send a resume that shows evidence that you can actually write real code. *

2. The dude reading the resumes, some engineering manager somewhere, is like, "Holy poo poo, here's a guy who can actually write real code!"

3. They give you an interview and want to hire you because holy mother of gently caress you're an actual programmer.

There is no nepotism except (theoretically) maybe in lame-rear end companies you wouldn't want to work for anyway. I have never seen nepotism in action in the job hunting situation (except when I got my first summer job at the company where my mom worked at, and the next summer job with the LLC of this dude whose dad my dad played golf with, and the summer research thing with professors I knew).

* Protip: write some FOSS.

# ? Apr 29, 2011 06:40

bobthecheese: Jun 7, 2006; Although I've never met Martha Stewart, I'll probably never birth her child.

shrughes posted:

(except when I got my first summer job at the company where my mom worked at, and the next summer job with the LLC of this dude whose dad my dad played golf with, and the summer research thing with professors I knew)

Nepotism is a summer sport.

shrughes posted:

* Protip: write some FOSS.

shrike82 posted:

build a portfolio of projects (e.g. FOSS) on the side.

I think they're telling you to write some FOSS.

2banks1swap.avi posted:

Anyway, what the hell is FOSS?

FOSS is Free and Open Source Software, and is generally considered a good way to showcase your skills as a programmer in a way that potential employers can view.

FOSS.

# ? Apr 29, 2011 06:56

The Reaganomicon: Oct 14, 2010; by Lowtax

2banks1swap.avi posted:

I was assuming it was so blatantly, boot-on-your-neck obvious it didn't warrant being spoken other than saying "Network" and "OH GOD INTERNSHIPS" and "first job RELAY matters". Once you get that first experience you're able to go by actual qualifications, but I do agree that your first actual chance comes down to how much elbow rubbing and palm greasing you do.

I hate this to no end. I also can't do much for it except as a goon (LOL) until I get to a University and start meeting professors. Community College doesn't exactly offer poo poo for what I'm doing, they've said my transfer University will handle it, and that's about a year out given the pile of prerequisites - the rest of calculus, physics, etc.

Obviously if I was going to start a nepotism goonproject I'd make an avatar of every shining corporate stereotype one could, so you won't see "twobanks" go get a job given I actually speak my mind on this name. But yes, to everyone who lives out the buzzwords: NEPOTISM OR YOU'RE SCREWED.

On that note, make a fake facebook with no info at all, just a pic of you looking normal and doing normal things, that is searchable, while making your own facebook NOT searchable and NOT having a picture of yourself or anything identifiable on it. That way if you have a slip of opinion and speak your mind, you don't get blacklisted or fired for it!

I've already started honing my "Hide your actual feelings and go along with the group" skills by palling around with the conserva-crew engineering student group at my school and networking with the local university's engineering department staff. DO THESE THINGS! Talk to advisers, tutors, professors, and be someone who stands out. If you're at a CC it's probably a lot easier to be remembered instead of a name on a list; if you're at a University I guess that just means try harder or nag your adviser daily.

At any rate, do extra curriculars, join student groups, do a drat internship if you get one, and don't lease or buy or finance any expensive junk until long after you can actually afford it.

2banks1swap.avi posted:

I realize it's a hard thing to grapple with, but literally every good job I've ever had in my brief life was a result of nepotism, be it strictly defined, or the more weak version of the word where it's an issue if "who you know" even if I wasn't literally related to them.

I'm very glad that something I've held interest in for a long time happens to offer me the stability and security I need. I just can't realize why so many people are so full of themselves they don't realize that many things completely out of their control could take it all away. If you're on the internet, you have to have been exposed to the statistics. I guess they don't comprehend them as it pertains to their working lives.

Don't even get me started on how many HR departments filter out people with 6 months or more of unemployment, calling them "unemployable" and leaving them to their fate.

Go see a psychologist before you hurt yourself, please.

Statistics aren't a prophecy. They are utterly devastated by skill combined with nepotism, because those two factors, by their powers combined, make you an outlier.

I got a job janitoring hardware in a small CS research lab attached to my university as a freshman because I was friends with several profs, who in turn were friends with the guys doing research and basically recommended me when the subject came up. Despite me not knowing a drat thing about janitoring.

And welp, now I have A Very Important Name on my resume because the guy who runs the lab is one of the most notorious researchers in his field. I've since had my salary doubled to a living wage by the virtue of being able to produce code that doesn't make your eyes bleed. I'm a sophomore and already making enough to start paying back loans.

Caveat: I live in Europe. Preemptive condolences re: you`re country.

# ? Apr 29, 2011 09:53

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

Okay, enough derail. Sorry Cicero. Pathos > logos and all.

For FLOSS, what would be good projects to jump into? Starting one or contributing to one that you find interesting? Any and all advice or experiences here would be helpful.

For networking, besides joining student groups, palling around with professors, and being a lab-rat, what else works? For those of us who are coming from a Community College to a University, and do not have family who can help us network in this field, what's a good starting point?

For what it's worth, I do this ANYWAY, because I frankly love the subject and stumbling into people with a common interest is a godsend if you life in an area which cares only about things I couldn't care less about. All but the most boring or anti social people would be doing these things, I think, anyway, but I've heard Universities are much more impersonal than CC's on account of the class sizes being so big. Maybe it changes at the upper level? I don't know.

I have about a year of prerqs left before I transfer anyway. Nothing is imminent but I don't want to go "WHOOPS!" and pay for it down the line. The reason I'm so gung ho about this now is I already got sold on how guaranteed my future would be with a given job skill which ended up being a titanic waste of time and money, and I'm not about to do that again this late in my twenties.

# ? Apr 29, 2011 17:27

Dren: Jan 5, 2001; Pillbug

Financial stability is such a boring goal. If you're any good at all you'll have financial stability. Shoot higher. Aim for a yacht or be like Zuckerberg and just try to create something amazing.

# ? Apr 29, 2011 19:16

Melted_Igloo: Nov 26, 2007

2banks1swap.avi posted:

Okay, enough derail. Sorry Cicero. Pathos > logos and all.

For FLOSS, what would be good projects to jump into? Starting one or contributing to one that you find interesting? Any and all advice or experiences here would be helpful.

For networking, besides joining student groups, palling around with professors, and being a lab-rat, what else works? For those of us who are coming from a Community College to a University, and do not have family who can help us network in this field, what's a good starting point?

For what it's worth, I do this ANYWAY, because I frankly love the subject and stumbling into people with a common interest is a godsend if you life in an area which cares only about things I couldn't care less about. All but the most boring or anti social people would be doing these things, I think, anyway, but I've heard Universities are much more impersonal than CC's on account of the class sizes being so big. Maybe it changes at the upper level? I don't know.

I have about a year of prerqs left before I transfer anyway. Nothing is imminent but I don't want to go "WHOOPS!" and pay for it down the line. The reason I'm so gung ho about this now is I already got sold on how guaranteed my future would be with a given job skill which ended up being a titanic waste of time and money, and I'm not about to do that again this late in my twenties.

If you live where I live, companies dont actually "need" to hire anyone, they can wait a year or 2 and interview 1000 people if they felt like it

There's really nothing that decides whether or not youre getting a job besdies 2 facts: whether they need someone right away and whether you werent a complete fumbling idiot at the interview

And to some extent how high the pay is = less likely to get job

# ? Apr 29, 2011 22:08

kes: Jan 4, 2006

2b1s you seem like a huge annoying dick and i would never want to work with you

# ? Apr 30, 2011 05:06

Piss Man 94: Jun 11, 2003

Yea I would worry less about starting salary and more about hiding your true character come interview time.

# ? May 2, 2011 07:47

Sleng Teng: May 3, 2009

2banks1swap.avi, are you Flux_core? Because you act almost exactly like him.

For real though, I'd like to hear some stories about how some of the people in here got involved with their professors and research while they spent time as an undergrad. I'm at the point where I've got a handle on my classes and I'm thinking about this sort of thing. I'm interested to see how other people went about getting research and some of the things some of you all have done, maybe how research directly affected job prospects too.

You know, so that I can get a job when I graduate.

# ? May 2, 2011 08:20

Jam2: Jan 15, 2008; With Energy For Mayhem

This Fall I will be a college junior. So far, I've been admitted to the CS programs at Michigan and Illinois, but I've also applied to CMU, Stanford, and I'm on the wait-list at MIT.

Academically, I'm a strong student, but I'm totally new to the field of study. I've been around IT my whole life, but I just started programming a few months ago.

How do I make myself employable as a software engineer in two years? Can I be competitive straight out of undergrad with whizkid hackers who've already put in their 10,000 hours?

# ? May 2, 2011 15:02

Bob Morales: Aug 18, 2006; ~~Just wear the fucking mask, Bob~~

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Jam2 posted:

How do I make myself employable as a software engineer in two years? Can I be competitive straight out of undergrad with whizkid hackers who've already put in their 10,000 hours?

Work on some really cool poo poo both inside and outside of school.

# ? May 2, 2011 15:54

Paolomania: Apr 26, 2006

Jam2 posted:

on the wait-list at MIT.

If you wind up at CSAIL let me know I'm on 7th floor Stata.

# ? May 2, 2011 19:04

umbrage: Sep 5, 2007; beast mode

Jam2 posted:

This Fall I will be a college junior. So far, I've been admitted to the CS programs at Michigan and Illinois, but I've also applied to CMU, Stanford, and I'm on the wait-list at MIT.

Academically, I'm a strong student, but I'm totally new to the field of study. I've been around IT my whole life, but I just started programming a few months ago.

How do I make myself employable as a software engineer in two years? Can I be competitive straight out of undergrad with whizkid hackers who've already put in their 10,000 hours?

Well, lucky for you, most programmers can't program. Most of those kids are going to learn bad habits in the first 100 hours, cheat for the next 300 in school, and then repeat the same bullshit mistakes for the next 9,600+, making me spend all of my hours fixing their mistakes.

I actually have a pretty good partitioning function for whether or not you will do well as a software engineer. Read this.

Does this get you excited? Do you see how an algorithm, developed in 1956, is still relevant to some of the most important computational issues of the current day? Do you appreciate its elegance? Even if you can't put it in to words, or put it in code yet, can you conceptualize ways to improve it?

This is the sort of mindset you need to be an excellent software engineer. If you possess it, then you will do fine, and it will show. Whizkid hackers may have infinite basement time and infinite Mountain Dew, but if you can begin to cultivate a way to see the entire world as graphs, trees, queues, stacks, cliques, alphabets, and functions operating on all of them, you will never be out of a job.

Truly internalizing the fundamental concepts of CS will give you the toolset to evaluate, decompose, and attack just about any problem in the real world that involves the representation, transformation, and presentation of information. None of it is bullshit.

Otherwise, you know, start learning how to kiss rear end, write lovely code for three years that does every design anti-pattern in the book, and get thee to middle management ASAP.

# ? May 3, 2011 15:33

umbrage: Sep 5, 2007; beast mode

Shitpost Gaze posted:

2banks1swap.avi, are you Flux_core? Because you act almost exactly like him.

For real though, I'd like to hear some stories about how some of the people in here got involved with their professors and research while they spent time as an undergrad. I'm at the point where I've got a handle on my classes and I'm thinking about this sort of thing. I'm interested to see how other people went about getting research and some of the things some of you all have done, maybe how research directly affected job prospects too.

You know, so that I can get a job when I graduate.

1) Take the course offered in your area of interest.
2) Go to the professor's office hours.
3) Ask relevant questions about the assigned coursework.
4) Tell said professor that because she or he has been such an inspiration in $CS_FIELD, you were hoping she/he has some independent work you could do.

The thing is, honestly the chances of a professor having actual research work that an undergrad could do is pretty low, because they want to work on novel things which, probabilistically, you can't handle yet. But you stand a decent chance of being in a support role, which means preparing coursework, or doing software grunt work in a team (e.g. building UIs or writing drivers) for a graduate student. The availability of this sort of work greatly depends on $CS_FIELD--more likely in Computer Vision or Robotics, less so in Theory of Computation.

Howaaaaayver, even doing this sort of work is Invaluable as gently caress, because you develop a personal rapport with a professor. Professors spend a lot of time chatting with other professors. You will become a Known Undergraduate in the department, which means

A) you are vouched for when you want to work for another professor, and
B) you are not going to want/need money.

Because professors usually have neither time nor money to waste.

If you provide more specific fields of interest, I could perhaps give more specific advice. But if you want to find opportunities that translate to a leg up on a professional career, you want to find a professor who is working on things with applicability to the real world. Stuff like automated cars, advanced database engines, image and voice recognition.

# ? May 3, 2011 15:59

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

umbrage posted:

:some really awesome stuff + specific interests:

My interests:

Anything that sits right between the hardware and the more abstract things above it. The mysterious black box between "Do a thing" and "these logical steps with this stuff in this memory doing that operation" is something I'd love to do more. Drivers, basically.
Any kind of optimization at all.
Network or communication stuff. How the hell do you split stuff, real time, throw it through the internet, then get it back together, in real or close to real time, even though it might get there out of order or you might lose the odd packet?
Anything applying matrices because I'm at the level where I've done then but have no applications of them yet. I just finished calc 1.
My guilty pleasure would be 3D stuff, see "WTF can you do with a drat matrix?" The fact that it's such a parallelizable thing, would benefit from knowing the hardware, and actually make use of those funny rear end blocks of numbers is intriguing to me. That, and actually making use of the math pile that's part of a degree is interesting, too. I'm afraid to speak up about that too much, because "3D stuff" implies "game design" which screams "guy who went into CS because he likes games, not because he knows what it's really about."
Any kind of security past "auditing and specs." Actual development and low level nitty gritty as opposed to "install this, do this procedure, have a password this long, bla bla, don't blab to girls on the internet."

They're probably way too spread around, so I'll have to figure out something to specialize in. Still, anything you could share would be wonderful.

Thanks for putting up with us neophytes, btw.

# ? May 3, 2011 22:50

Jam2: Jan 15, 2008; With Energy For Mayhem

umbrage posted:

Does this get you excited? Do you see how an algorithm, developed in 1956, is still relevant to some of the most important computational issues of the current day? Do you appreciate its elegance? Even if you can't put it in to words, or put it in code yet, can you conceptualize ways to improve it?

Yeah, this sort of stuff is the reason I'm interested in the field. I want to be more than what people consider a "computer programmer" (someone who knows how to give instructions to a computer).

I'd like to be a problem solver/scientist/engineer in the realm of computing.

I suppose I can differentiate myself by really internalizing all of the aspects you mentioned (graphs, trees, queues, stacks, cliques, alphabets, and functions). I can see how lazy "programmers" would ignore many of these concepts and how my math background may help me (rigorous proofs, etc.).

This gives me some hope. I was concerned that I'd be severely disadvantaged, but it seems like I can chop up the task of developing competency into manageable portions. I can see myself being an authority on some of these topics within a subset of the tech community down the road. Thanks.

Jam2 fucked around with this message at 02:55 on May 4, 2011

# ? May 4, 2011 02:51

shrike82: Jun 11, 2005

Jam2 posted:

Yeah, this sort of stuff is the reason I'm interested in the field. I want to be more than what people consider a "computer programmer" (someone who knows how to give instructions to a computer).

I'd like to be a problem solver/scientist/engineer in the realm of computing.

I suppose I can differentiate myself by really internalizing all of the aspects you mentioned (graphs, trees, queues, stacks, cliques, alphabets, and functions). I can see how lazy "programmers" would ignore many of these concepts and how my math background may help me (rigorous proofs, etc.).

This gives me some hope. I was concerned that I'd be severely disadvantaged, but it seems like I can chop up the task of developing competency into manageable portions. I can see myself being an authority on some of these topics within a subset of the tech community down the road. Thanks.

Alum of one of the schools you mentioned. Firstly, congrats - you're going to get a great education at any of the schools you listed!

Secondly, I wouldn't worry too much about competing with the students with prior programming knowledge. While you'll definitely meet a lot of people who have been writing compilers since they were 12, the courses that you'll take (especially in junior/senior year) aren't something that a hobby programmer typically picks up - computer vision, AI, combinatorics, graph theory etc. so you'll be on the same footing as them. Also, there aren't that many courses that focus just on programming.

About undergrad research, it's definitely possible since your schools are heavy on research. Personal anecdote, I took a class in junior year and ended up being approached by the professor teaching it to do research because I aced the class. So just build a good relationship with your professors and don't feel shy asking them if you could do research for them.

Lastly, jobs - LOL it's ridiculous how much of a employee's market it is. As long as you spend time preparing your interview skills, resume - you'll worry more about which offer to accept rather than finding one at all. I've heard from my juniors that mean/median offer salary this year was a bit over $80K.

Good luck!

# ? May 4, 2011 12:59

Melted_Igloo: Nov 26, 2007

shrike82 posted:

Lastly, jobs - LOL it's ridiculous how much of a employee's market it is. As long as you spend time preparing your interview skills, resume - you'll worry more about which offer to accept rather than finding one at all. I've heard from my juniors that mean/median offer salary this year was a bit over $80K.

Good luck!

Er what? where the heck do you live?

Theres like 3 IT firms where I live, and they arent hiring anybody without 15 years experience or something ridiculous

# ? May 7, 2011 10:41

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

What are the high-growth job markets anyway? My gut would be The typical west-coast cities, RTP in NC, and maybe the north east.

# ? May 8, 2011 22:44

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Shitpost Gaze posted:

2banks1swap.avi, are you Flux_core? Because you act almost exactly like him.

This isn't true at all, 2banks doesn't make references to Marxism or the unfairness of capitalism everywhere.

quote:

2b1s you seem like a huge annoying dick and i would never want to work with you

2banks suffers from an affliction that I happen to share: when people already understand the gist of your point and think you're an idiot, continuing to explain will not convince them regardless of how sound your reasoning is, and will only cause them to think that your opinion is dumb AND that you're annoying. In this sort of situation, even if you were to get someone to concede some point (which is unlikely), they would resent you for it. It is a lose-lose situation.

Personally I think this debate is silly because both sides are right: nearly everyone in a field is affected by general trends, and being exceptionally skilled can help you rise above the fray. It might be worth it to discuss this sort of thing more in BFC or D&D, but CS as a field is strong enough to where anyone competent, hard-working, and reasonably socially-skilled doesn't have much to worry about if they're just concerned with financial stability.

Melted_Igloo posted:

Er what? where the heck do you live?

Theres like 3 IT firms where I live, and they arent hiring anybody without 15 years experience or something ridiculous

Well as one sign, MS recently announced pretty much across-the-board raises and changes in compensation from stock to cash: http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2011/04/21/steve-ballmer-changes-coming-to-microsoft-employee-compensation-reviews/

Google, of course, announced across-the-board raises back in November. Obviously that's just two companies, but they're big enough to where this will probably put pressure on other companies to match or at least get somewhat closer. They wouldn't be increasing pay if getting good talent was easy, that's for sure.

Cicero fucked around with this message at 08:39 on May 9, 2011

# ? May 9, 2011 08:33

Melted_Igloo: Nov 26, 2007

Cicero posted:

Well as one sign, MS recently announced pretty much across-the-board raises and changes in compensation from stock to cash

That could mean literally anything, from making their stock price go up or down,
to more competion from other companies to keep developers from jumping ship
To Steve Balmer getting a blowjob that morning

Also: read the comments on the article, they tell how crappy it really is to work at Microsoft from the averages person perspective

Melted_Igloo fucked around with this message at 12:39 on May 9, 2011

# ? May 9, 2011 10:59

Safe and Secure!: Jun 14, 2008; OFFICIAL SA THREAD RUINER
SPRING 2013

I don't know about crappy - someone who got a job at Microsoft right after graduation a year or two ago came back to give a short talk at my university, and he really seemed to like it.

# ? May 9, 2011 11:50

shrike82: Jun 11, 2005

Adjusting comp has been a long time coming. I think tech companies are still grossly underpaying their employees - MSFT's net income per employee is about 210K, GOOG's 350K. Just for comparison, Goldman's NI per employee was 213K.

It's embarrassing to hear CS kids mouth off on economics/taxes (especially toeing their companies' party line on taxes being too high) when they're literally being paid peanuts.

# ? May 9, 2011 12:47

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

It's embarrassing when a lot of kids think they're invincible in general.

# ? May 9, 2011 12:54

subx: Jan 12, 2003; If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Melted_Igloo posted:

Er what? where the heck do you live?

Theres like 3 IT firms where I live, and they arent hiring anybody without 15 years experience or something ridiculous

So the only places that need developers are IT firms now? There's tons of jobs everywhere. Not sure its as easy as shrike82 makes it out to be, but getting a decent job shouldn't be a problem.

Around here it's all health care, and the pay is pretty good (and really good job security, which is just as important to me as the pay).

# ? May 9, 2011 18:32

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

subx posted:

So the only places that need developers are IT firms now? There's tons of jobs everywhere. Not sure its as easy as shrike82 makes it out to be, but getting a decent job shouldn't be a problem.

Around here it's all health care, and the pay is pretty good (and really good job security, which is just as important to me as the pay).

Working for the health care industry - what do they look for, database skills?

# ? May 9, 2011 19:21

TasteMyHouse: Dec 21, 2006

2banks1swap.avi posted:

Working for the health care industry - what do they look for, database skills?

something like that...

# ? May 9, 2011 19:45

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

Please tell me those guys at least have advancement within their employer and pay raises to match inflation and experience.

I now know what to stay the hell away from, thanks.

# ? May 9, 2011 22:11

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# ? Apr 20, 2024 05:37

csammis: Aug 26, 2003; Mental Institution

2banks1swap.avi posted:

Please tell me those guys at least have advancement within their employer and pay raises to match inflation and experience.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

edit: if this was serious then of course it depends on the employer in question, but if the employer is Cerner or Epic then no they probably do not have these things.

# ? May 9, 2011 22:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

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