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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

I have an interview next week for a development and QA job. They sent me the 'scenario' for the interview today. It basically reads like so:

'foobar' is a new web site. We've got a god start on it, but we want to make it better. So we'd like you go through it and tell us what needs improving

Planned features:

Comments - we'd like readers to be able to post, even if they aren't a member. But they should have to enter their email address. If they are logged in, then they can just post right away.
Tags - similar to the previous item
Users - whada balahdw et
Pictures - dolor ipsum blah blah

Before we can add these features, we need to test foobar in today's most common web browsers. We'd like you to go through the site and document any issues you may find, in our format:

screenshot
steps to reproduce

Next, we'll talk about the issues you found, and how you found them. And how you think they might be resolved. As a final step, we'd like to hear your thoughts on our features, how we might implement them, and any ideas you have for any others.

If we like what we see, we will give you a chance to do some programming and fix what you've found, and/or add some features (this would be a homework-type project)


Sounds kind of fun. Anyway, I wrote back to the guy asking what language(s)/platform the test is built on, because poo poo, it could be 10 different things, how am I supposed to know them all? I realize I can brush up on stuff and they probably aren't look for perfect answers, and they just want to see how you think/work.

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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

kimbo305 posted:

Is it a real website out in the wild, that they want you to test from home, or will they bring you in and give you a give machine set up to work with the site?


kimbo305 posted:

e: also, how much are you expecting to do development through this job? The development opportunity is frequently waved as a bait to people who are looking to transition from QA to development.

I'm going on-site and they're going to have a computer setup. I'd like to be more development-oriented but I'll take QA to get out of this computer janitor job I'm in now.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Jam2 posted:

How do I make myself employable as a software engineer in two years? Can I be competitive straight out of undergrad with whizkid hackers who've already put in their 10,000 hours?

Work on some really cool poo poo both inside and outside of school.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Ensign Expendable posted:

What the hell? Why would a company not hire unemployed people?

The theory is that if you were actually a great employee (and not an average or below-average one) your company wouldn't have laid you off.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

low-key-taco posted:

This is pretty targeted at CS students, but does anyone have advice for someone trying to pass from IT to programming? I'm good with T-SQL and I've been gamely working my way through books and tutorials on C and Python, but should I even be bothering with the more theoretical stuff?

Program as much as you can. Write code, write code, and write code. Also have someone tell you how much your code sucks, because it will for a while and the sooner you learn what you're doing wrong, the better.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Goop posted:

I have heard many times now that the game industry is a pain to work for. Could anyone elaborate past the whole "deadlines suck" part? Any stories or grievances would be interesting to me.

http://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/274.html

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Would you hate the support job more than your current gig? If so just stay where you're at.

Why don't you start learning <interesting technology x> during your free time, and then try to get a job working with that?

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Okay. I want to get out of management (IT manager for a small ($25m), family owned manufacturing company, 100 employees or so) and back into a technical role. I previously spent about 10 years in network/sysadmin roles for two similar companies, and three years at small (3,000ish employee) multinational manufacturer as a sysadmin (they acquired one of the previous companies). Last job was about three years of web development for a health/wellness company.

I'd prefer to get into a database or programming role. I've worked with Ruby, PHP, Python, VB, JavaScript, but it much in the .NET or Java realm. I love digging through nine layers of poo poo to figure out why things are broken or slow. No CS degree. And I'm open to learning new languages or technologies. Had pretty much not heard of Rails a week before I got my last development job but was able to get up to speed and pass their programming take home assignment and interview.

Problem is I'm in the middle of Michigan and there's not much around so I may have to move to the southern or western parts of the state. There's a big local insurance company but they are a Java/MS shop, I am thinking about investigating them some more. I'm thinking about nerding out for a bit and maybe working on some open source bugs or something to just get used to getting familiar with new things.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Pilsner posted:

It's fine if it interests you and you're good at it, but my point is just that during my 10 years of working as a dev, I have never had the need to actually write any of those algorithms by hand (nor care how the internals of a .NET .Sort() method works), which is why I would completely fail an interview asking me to do so, particularly if the interview was on a high horse about it. I don't see how being able to write a sorting algorithm shows any skill beyond being able to memorize some code.

I'm all for understanding basics and fundamental concepts, but being able to write them? It's like requiring a carpenter to be able to build a sawmill (I just made up that brilliant analogy).

I feel you should know the basics of how hashes, dictionaries, and trees/lists work while also knowing the proper use cases for each one and understanding Big O notation. I've worked with front-end and back end guys that don't realize their nested loops are causing huge performance issues or how much they could be saving in space by using a hashtable to lookup values.

Does that mean you should be able to code these by scratch? No, even the simpler structures can be tough to get 'right'. But you should be able to show that you understand how they work.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

There is nothing worse than someone with "10 years of 1 year of experience"

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

piratepilates posted:

I've never had to interview people before, and I have no real way of telling if I have 3 years of experience or 1 year repeated three times.

What exactly are signs that differentiate the two? Like what really is someone with 10 1-year experiences like in an interview or a job?

Someone with 10 years experience but only knows 1 language, 1 database system, and everything they have ever made interacts with 1 system. Unless you're hiring them specifically to work with that one system. And for that they better know every detail about that fucker and not take 3 days to figure out a production bug, "Oh, it's a text field not a number!"

I had a guy on my team that has 15 years experience, was a lovely programmer, couldn't interact with Windows/Linux systems, didn't know how to use a loving database, all his programs were huge if/else clusterfucks. But he had 15 years experience. No debugging skills. He worked with an Access program almost every loving day but couldn't make a change in it to save his life much less write a new Access program from scratch. Same goes for the PHP shopping cart and customer portal we had for like 4 years. Couldn't even figure out what line it was crashing on. Never learned any kinds of scripting programs to make his life easier.

I promoted a helpdesk guy to replace him, who's learned Access, has a working knowledge of the IBM system the other guy 'knew', and has started learning PowerShell and Python. Just the other day he said "I would have tried to do this in Access a few months ago but this is so much easier", referring to a Python script I had him write.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Smugworth posted:

Is there a rule of thumb about how much you can conceivably put fourth when countering an initial offer?

I was offered $56k as a new grad who would be moving to Houston from Austin, which seems incredibly low but isn't entirely unexpected in light of how lax the interviewing process was. Trying to get that bumped up to something that would make it worthwhile for my fiance and I, say 40% more, seems nearly impossible when starting that low.

What industry and language is that in? That doesn't sound that low for an entry or lower-level coding position.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Kibbles n Shits posted:

How do you get past the great "bachelors required" filter for an interview?

Cross your fingers and hope someone other than HR sees your resume. Recruiters can be helpful here. Any reasonable employer will look past it if you have experience.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Che Delilas posted:

One of the former devs at my current company wrote a bespoke ORM for our flagship product. It's surprisingly okay to use, if not the most flexible thing in the world. I do prefer to use that instead of dynamic sql unless it's something really fancy.

Until you need to dig into the ORM code itself for whatever reason. The main classes have the following header comment: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." I'm not joking about that and the comments are 100% correct. The dude who wrote that code wrote a lot of other code that I call "clever," and I don't use that term in a complimentary way in this case.

Pro tip for you newbies: if you're at your job and find yourself in a position to write really cool, minimalist, or clever code, stop and think, "Can I possibly do this in a way that will be easier to read and follow for people who have no idea what the code is supposed to do before they start reading it?" If you can answer yes to that question, write your code the boring yet clear way, instead of the cool way. Save the clever poo poo for vanity projects if it's not getting you any other tangible benefits.

Management might think, "We were going to use <framework> but Dave is such a genius...he wrote his own framework!"
Meanwhile, it's a clusterfuck and you have 100,000 lines of code written in Dave_Framework instead of <industry_standard>.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

There's a local insurance company (~400 employees, 60 person IT department) that is looking for programmers from time to time.

The problem is they use Java and Gosu, my experience in Java ended 15-20 years ago, played around with for a bit when it was somewhat new and that's about it. Any professional programming I've done was in Ruby, PHP, Javascript, Python...

What's the best way to get started in this case? I'd like to put together a working knowledge of Java before I even start applying, etc.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Skandranon posted:

Learn C# and tell them to switch because Java is trash. They will be impressed by your assertiveness.

Heh. They do some Microsoft stuff too...

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Slightly off-topic but related to programming job question:

What kind of skills do you want your QA/testing people to know, for testing sites in a browser and Android/iPhone apps?

Of course the person needs to know how to illustrate/document and reproduce the problem, and find the version of the device or browser, but what else is essential?

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Grump posted:

I think being familiar with console logs/network error codes is useful.

Knowing what it means when a variable is undefined. And the different between 400 or 500 errors is also pretty useful.

That usually the first thing I check whenever something goes wrong.
It's actually for my girlfriend, she got a QA job at a web development place I used to work at ~ 4 years ago. They stress 'no programming knowledge needed' for their QA people, and from the tests they made her do during the interview process, it's a glorified link-checker and graphics/spelling checker.

They've almost doubled in size in the last 4 years and when I was there they really didn't have anyone on staff who did quality - it was pretty much 'everyone in the company check out the new site/app for 2 weeks and help find bugs'.

I kind of want to show her some cool browser plugins, how to use the inspectors and console, but at the same time I don't want to over-complicate things for her and kind of just want to sit back and see how it goes for a month or so. She doesn't really have any programming background except a college HTML/CSS class. And, I can sympathize with the developers when someone who knows just enough to be dangerous starts to try explaining a bug on their level (especially when they don't know what's actually going on behind the scenes).

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

If I put projects on GitHub so an employer can see them, they're basically public for anyone to fork etc, right?

They're nothing special but then again I don't necessarily want to put them out in the open. Would I be better off sticking them n a blog or something and link them to that? Sure, people can get to the code but it's at least more obscure that way.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

I'm job hunting. Does anyone want to suggest a better way to write this sentence? Suggestions for the first sentence are welcome as well. This would be the opening paragraph for a cover letter.

Hello! I'm writing to introduce myself and express my interest in working for Foobar Corp. I have spent the last 15+ years working in information technology for a variety of local companies, ranging from chemical manufacturers to health and wellness solutions providers, in a range of roles from web developer to systems administrator.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Crosspostin' from the c++ thread

Let's not bring anyone in for a code discussion in person or give them take-home project, let's make them do 40 multiple choice questions on eskill.com

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Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Instead of screenshots, the python questions are done with a proportional font and no tabs/indenting

:haw:

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