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unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

JawnV6 posted:

Finally, someone with the courage to say it.

It's full of nerds though, ugh.

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unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

How many points does being an insufferable sperg lose/win you?

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Trick question depends if you're applying at Google or not

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

I did my resume in latex, you may have heard of it.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Font size is important. How big? Web scale, that's how big.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Skuto posted:

But the claim that the styling is irrelevant is wrong, and the terrible arguments advanced here just reinforce that point.

So if I do my resume in latex and turn up to the interview in a great suit, extra points for impeccable styling?

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Call them up and tell them its not feasible. If they really push insist they pay one years salary compensation in return for that right.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

nielsm posted:

Where are the entry-level SAP developer positions?
I have never seen a job posting looking for a SAP developer with less than 5 years of experience, but learning the thing on your own is practically impossible. (Good luck even getting the software in the first place.) Would you have to basically get a different position inside a company that also does SAP and then hope they'll suddenly want to train and certify you?

This is a theoretical question because while the jobs probably pay well I can't imagine them being enjoyable.

Yeah come to think of it I have never seen an entry level SAP thing. I guess the typical pathway would be working in HR IT and building SAP skills from there. From what I've seen the stereotypical SAP consultant would be an alcoholic mid-forties english guy who is deeply bitter. They do get paid a lot though.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Ask for $95k (or whatever). Yeah recruiters lie cause they get paid when you sign on the line, they don't really care about you or your career. Expect them to push you to take whatever is on offer.

Also the actual work you will be doing is way more important than your job title.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Cast_No_Shadow posted:

1) I see a fair few job postings out there for various combinations of VBA \ Access \ Excel \ SQL developers. What exactly do these jobs entail? What sort of skills level is expected here, I always assumed those kind of skills were pretty much coding with training wheels\in the basic toolbox of any serious developer and if you wanted to actually have a pure development job you best get yourself a real language or two. Yet these jobs seem to get more money etc than straight forward .net or java type postings, and if you combine it with c# etc you move into mega money. There are LOTS of these jobs as well, its not like 3 random postings by idiots. Makes no sense to me can someone shed some light?

It's probably very similar to your situation. They started off with a spreadsheet that grew and grew over the years, and now they are stuck with whatever monstrosity they have. The pay is probably good because most CS grads probably dont aim to be a vba developer so there's not as many people out there to fill the roles. From what you have written it sounds like you would have the right skills to take on a similar role somewhere else.

quote:

2) I ask the above because my plan is, if it turns out I'm basically doing one of those jobs, or at least am close, I'm going to gather up evidence of that and how screwed the place is without me or someone like me and present a give me this job with a reasonable wage or I start looking elsewhere and you're up poo poo creek. Any one have any advice on how to do this or done similar? I think I have a reasonable chance of success, the company is kinda against a wall, and I don't have to worry about being poo poo canned for it either so its pretty much a no lose situation.

Try and stay classy about it, just point out how your role and day to day work no longer matches what your formal job description is and that you feel you should be paid more in line with what you actually do. It's good to provide evidence about what you should be earning, most likely they just don't know. I would hold back on letting them know how screwed they are unless they are resistant to it. They may or may not appreciate how screwed they are, for example if they actually cared about quality software they probably would have bitten the bullet and built a properly engineered system. Hopefully though they can realise it.

I had to work on this system once and it was something totally bizzaro that had five different layers of excel spreadsheets all over network shares or something and all I could think was the guy who looked after that must have the safest job in the world cause noone would be able to figure out how it really worked. The situation you describe is not uncommon, with a small project compounding "organically" over the years, but no one ever stopped to think about the best way to build something sustainable. It's a level above technical debt.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Strong Sauce posted:

This sounds essentially like accrued technical debt. What does it mean to be a level above technical debt?

It is basically, but technical debt to me is where you have something that is more or less fundamentally sound, theres just a bunch of extra work to be done to bring it back to a position where it is robust and maintainable over the long term.

I've been in a few situations where someone asks me "Hey can you just write a 10 liner to do x", which I do, and it works, then they go away for a while then come back and say 'oh you know that thing you wrote, can you make it do y' which is another relatively small addition. This will basically continue on for eternity, because no one ever asks for less features.

Its easy for things to spiral out of control and you end up with something that was originally a 10-20 liner being a part of a core system. It was never designed for it and will forever be a nightmare to extend, getting more and more hacky as time goes by ("held together by shell scripts and bubblegum" was a favourite phrase of a colleague).

So in effect I consider it beyond technical debt because for the most part it just isn't salvageable. What you really need to do is stop, work out a proper set of requirements and future goals, allocate a reasonable set of resources towards the task and go from there.

Unless you are working for a set of people who are relatively enlightened wrt software development it can be a hard sell. Which is reasonable cause really there is never a good time to stop active development on something and take 3-6 months re-doing it.

Now clearly I don't know what the deal is with the case at hand but I've seen plenty of Excel sheets that have turned into monsters, just lots of little changes and additions over the course of a number of years.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Sarkimedes posted:

1. Is it at all possible for me to graduate with a straight comp science degree and go onto a master's course in computer security, and are there any programmes you guys can recommend?

When I worked in security a lot of people from the UK seemed to have masters from royal holloway.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Tres Burritos posted:

Awww man, I've got two offers and I don't know what to do. Goons gimme some input.

Job A)
-Pays well
-Get lots of good working experience in a team environment with daily meetings and code reviews and all that
-Semi interesting work
-Sounds like there may be some headaches supporting lovely legacy browsers (ie)

Job B)
-Pays 6k less than Job A
-Work with MDs and PHDs to help treat diseases, the work sounds very cool
-I'd be the only "Programmer" on the team, wouldn't be collaborating with other devs

My main worry is really "Professional Development". In Job A I'd be learning all the stuff that they don't teach you at school (I'm a recent grad) and I'd have a support structure of other coders/mentors to learn from. At Job B everything is 100% my call, everything from Source control to what language to use would probably be my decision. So I wouldn't get that Agile experience and whatnot.

Which looks better to employers? I honestly think Job A gives me a much better chance at future employment vs Job B, but I'm not like 100%.

I'd say Job A, if you're new the best thing to do is get on a team with experienced devs who will help you transition from study to real world.

Also what languages/technologies would you be using? Cause chances are they will determine what you end up doing at your next job. If it's some weirdo academic stuff at job B, future opportunities may be limited.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:

I don't wanna be down on mentoring but I think there's something to be said for "going it alone" as well.

I don't disagree but I think if you are relatively new to working, being the sole programmer and working for a bunch of non-programmers is not going to be a smooth ride.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Tres Burritos posted:

I'm not that relatively new. I started my first "programming" job having 2 c++ classes under my belt from a local community college. I did a whole lot of learning on the job and got exposure to the whole "small business / small team" thing. Part of me really wants to work with a bigger company/team just because then I wouldn't have to deal with all the little poo poo that always pops up. That and I'd be doing all the Agile stuff that all the cool kids are doing. Also having at least one other person to bounce ideas off of helped me a ton in the past.

Think about where you want to be in 5 - 10 years, do you want to be a lead architect at some big tech company? Learn a set of enterprise tools and how larger scale software development is done at Job A. Or do you want to be an independent doing shorter project work and have lots of time off? Build a niche skillset that you know very well for a niche industry and build a big list of contacts that might want you for other projects down the line, starting at Job B.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Pollyanna what sort of job are you going for? Full time developer? As soon as I see masters - ongoing I assume you are a student looking for an internship or something. If you are looking for a FT role I would drop the masters line. Also if reorder the bullet points so the development stuff is first on the list.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Master_Odin posted:

If was fulltime, wouldn't you just change "ongoing" to "Anticipated May 2014" or whenever you're getting it in the near future. Or does software people really hate masters people?

There's nothing wrong with doing a masters (at all), but the way it is presented creates ambiguity about availability. For example if I advertised a full time role and received that resume I would think "this person is doing a masters I need someone full time why are they applying for this job", and depending on how many resumes I received I would not bother following up to clarify.

Pollyanna posted:

Right...I am currently taking an online Masters in bioinformatics. It's a degree meant for people who are already working as professionals (long story), so there's a lot of downtime for someone who's unemployed - which I was hoping to fill. Currently I'm a full-time student, but there's always the option of going part-time, which reduces the courseload per term.

I fully intend to complete my MS, I just don't want to spend the entire time doing otherwise nothing, if it's gonna be an online thing. Hence why I started looking for a job. Plus, I don't want there to be a big hole in my employment history. I'm interested in development, but I'm definitely not experienced enough for any major role.

Ok. You need to make sure your availability for full time work is very clear, either in your cover letter or resume, or both, cause you never know if your cover letter will always be with the resume once things move around internally.

Don't go into a lot of details, just something like: "I am currently seeking full time opportunities" which you can change to part time if you are apply for a part time role.

Then change the masters line to something like:

Master foo, ongoing.
A part-time accessible program designed for working professionals.
Blah University.

You don't have to say you are attending full time or part time in your resume, but seeing that lets people know you are available for full time work. Your actual mode of attendance can be clarified in the interview.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

I'd drop 'entry-level' from the first line. Anchoring and all that.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Safe and Secure! posted:

It just seems like, if I want to achieve financial independence ASAP, software development isn't the best choice. I'd have to become an extremely good developer to make what I assume a petroleum engineering graduate makes fresh out of school with a 2.1 GPA.

It may not be the absolute best but it is definitely up there. Fewer careers give you so many options for work, in pretty much any major city in the world, and is also relatively very well paid. Nor is there any field I know of where working from home/remotely is acceptable. Plus its very easy for an individual to step out on their own. You need to be realistic about timeframes, if you achieve independence within 20 years you are lightyears ahead of the vast majority of the rest of the world. What you earn first year out of school has very little bearing on it. From what I've seen most of the cash a twenty-something makes doesn't end up in a savings account.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

shrughes posted:

So do you think you're a good developer or do you think you're average?

For someone who prides themselves on their team building skills and leadership you sure do seem to enjoy belittling people. BTW you've misspelt architect on your linkedin profile.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Deus Rex posted:

I think you have the wrong person.

Yeah maybe. I just wish he would take his little crush on Ithaqua to pms or something.

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unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Deus Rex posted:

Your seeking out of a pseudonymous forums poster's LinkedIn profile, some would suggest, could mean you wish shrughes would take a certain someone to PMs :love:

I did actually PM him but really this was very small of me and I am quite embarrassed I started taking words on the Internet so seriously. In my mind there is no question that shruges is a super smart guy who has been helpful to a bunch of people here.

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