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flyingfoggy
Jun 3, 2006

My fellow Obamas...

CounterRandom posted:

I had a quick question for everyone in the investment banking field.

I'm a senior studying physics, math, and electrical engineering. I have good grades, several publications, and have presented at an academic conference. I have a lot of research and work experience; however, it is all in physics and engineering. I have recently decided that I wanted to try and join the financial service industries, specifically investment banking. I have no training in finance and no work experience related to the field.

I have been applying hard to try and get an internship after graduation, but after about 200 emails/applications, I have only managed to get one interview with a boutique firm. Am I wasting my time looking for an internship? Would my time be better spent taking some finance classes after I graduate to improve my resume?

I have some pretty good job prospects at some engineering companies, but I really would much rather work in finance.

Also, if anyone could recommend some good introductory finance books that would be useful to study I would be very appreciative.

If you are that good at math I would look into more quantitative Masters in Finance/Financial Engineering programs, such as the one at Princeton. I think a lot of people out of it end up as quants or traders but I think they place people into standard investment banking as well. Either way you are getting paid large sums of money for being incredibly smart regardless of what you do and it's a very very good choice if you can get into a program like that.

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Its Miller Time
Dec 4, 2004

CounterRandom: There could be a separate thread for MFE programs. Princeton's is the best and highly competitive. When I was looking I also thought Vanderbilt and UCLA's program might be a bit easier but still distinguished schools/programs. You might apply to different MFE schools than I would have, as they vary greatly in how technical the programs are and what kind of math background you have. An analysis/calc heavy background would let you apply to a greater range of schools. I know for example that for Cornell, you apply to the general masters of engineering program and then specialize. You should also look for job opportunities that compliment your strength. I recall when I was interviewing around that the engineering background students often ended up in technical areas like healthcare, biotech, and emerging technologies in general because those bankers and their analysts need to understand what the company does and how it does it. Also I think you'll find the consensus for more quant heavy job seekers is you'll get more techy interview questions that fit your background, but are still expected to have a vague understanding of how to find free cash flows, how to discount a future cash flow, and the major financial statements and how they connect. If you really have no accounting/finance background maybe a community or university class or two might help.

edit:

Vault guide. And maybe some of Wallstreetoasis' ibanking and questions guides. It adds up fast see if you can find friends with the files. Now that I think about it I might still have a few let me check...

ReD_XIII
Dec 21, 2005
Hey, I am a freshman at Drexel University majoring in Business admin concentrating in finance. I am a very driven person, graduated salutatorian of my high school, and have already gotten into a very selective and unique student organization. I am loving college and enjoying myself plenty.

At Drexel I get to go on co-op 3 times and was hoping to get hired by an investment bank like Blackrock, Goldman, or SIG each time. After I graduate, would I be better off pursuing an MBA at Wharton, or just applying right away for a job in the investment banking industry? I have a lot of spare credits because I came into college with a lot of AP and transfer credits from a college I attended part time in high school. Should I double major with economics and minor in math or computer science? I am not going to lie, I want to make a lot of money and do so using my intellect. I was hoping that people already in the investment banking industry would be able to give me pointers on what or what not to do. I figured that because I am still a freshman, I have a lot of time to enact your advice compared to some other people who have asked. Thank you for any help.

TheSherpa
Mar 3, 2008

ReD_XIII posted:

Hey, I am a freshman at Drexel University majoring in Business admin concentrating in finance. I am a very driven person, graduated salutatorian of my high school, and have already gotten into a very selective and unique student organization. I am loving college and enjoying myself plenty.

At Drexel I get to go on co-op 3 times and was hoping to get hired by an investment bank like Blackrock, Goldman, or SIG each time. After I graduate, would I be better off pursuing an MBA at Wharton, or just applying right away for a job in the investment banking industry? I have a lot of spare credits because I came into college with a lot of AP and transfer credits from a college I attended part time in high school. Should I double major with economics and minor in math or computer science? I am not going to lie, I want to make a lot of money and do so using my intellect. I was hoping that people already in the investment banking industry would be able to give me pointers on what or what not to do. I figured that because I am still a freshman, I have a lot of time to enact your advice compared to some other people who have asked. Thank you for any help.

Blackrock isn't an investment bank, its an asset management firm.

Do NOT go straight to get your MBA, it will be a huge mistake that you will regret. Anyone that says it's a good idea has zero clue.

If your truly that smart, transfer schools. Drexel sucks, and is probably one if the worst schools in the Philly area. Go to UPenn/Nova if you want to stay in Philly or transfer to an ivy league school.

BingoMcJiggles
Dec 19, 2004
I just recently finished one of these MFE programs. I would not recommend it unless you can program and actually enjoy programming.

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002

BingoMcJiggles posted:

I just recently finished one of these MFE programs. I would not recommend it unless you can program and actually enjoy programming.

How are your job prospects?

CounterRandom
Jul 19, 2006

YES WE CAN
Thank you everyone for the valuable input. I have been studying finance on my own time, but there is only so much time in one day. I'm going to let everyone's advice sink in and spend a couple weeks thinking about what I should do if I don't get an internship/career in finance by summer.

I'm not crazy about the idea of going to get a masters or phd in finance right now, I'm really tired of school and just wanted a break after this year. If worse comes to worse, I can work an engineering job for a couple of years and save up some money so when I go back to school I don't have to live in poverty and bring my girlfriend down with me.

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002

nnnotime posted:

Useful VBA stuff

Thanks very much.

BingoMcJiggles
Dec 19, 2004

LactoseO.D.'d posted:

How are your job prospects?

Not that great as I'm still looking for a job at the moment. I’m trying to get into trading. The problem is most people don’t want to be quants after doing the program.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear

TheSherpa posted:

Blackrock isn't an investment bank, its an asset management firm.

Do NOT go straight to get your MBA, it will be a huge mistake that you will regret. Anyone that says it's a good idea has zero clue.

Also SIG is a specialized trading firm, not an investment bank. Great opportunity if you're cut out for it (not many are). Seconding the advice not to go directly for an MBA after undergrad, unless you are a uniquely talented snowflake or your father is a senior finance professional with clout.

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.

Socialism posted:

You'll have a blast. The location is amazing and if you haven't been to London before, it's quite an experience. Get ready for a lot of self-study though, LSE's teaching is awful. The career services center is pretty useless, but some banks/consultancies hold summer info sessions that you really should attend if you get a chance.

Do you recall what type of (if any) recruiting seminars were held in the summer at LSE? I'll hopefully be there from the beginning of July through the middle of August and I really want to capitalize on my time there.

Mr. WTF
Jun 12, 2003


I DON'T GET JOKES

EchoBase posted:

This looks to be a good thread. Can people who are working in banking give some day-in-the-life summaries of what they do, preferably with less jargon and acronyms? I'm curious to see what you really do all day in various types of jobs.


Not sure if you are still reading, but I'm an managing director with a boutique tech focused M&A shop. Here's a quick version of today:

- was supposed to fly out today to take a client (sell side) to visit a buyer in the midwest, they rescheduled late last night (sunday) to next week because of the blizzard warning.
- MD meeting...talk about deals other partner stuff
- group meeting ...talk about deals in process with the junior guys
- 90 minutes of misc. phone calls: calmed down the client who had the meeting reschedule due to weather, talked about strategy with other buyers and valuations, where and when it would likely sell, how he should manage his board.....made several calls to arrange meetings with prospective buyers for another company I am selling (these are calls to people I know at the buyers)
- reviewed an information memorandum prepared by an associate over the weekend on another company we are selling (this is the document we use to inform potential acquirers about the business), edited directly, passed it back to him for some other changes
- 90 minute conference call on another company we are selling that is in the middle of drafting definitive purchase and sale documents (final stages of M&A before it is announced). This call was only our side (our counsel, my client's CEO and a board member on the M&A committee, our CFO, two of us from my group). Reviewed redlines from the other side, discussed 10-20 issues and came up with positions. Our counsel will draft and redistribute to the whole group for review before we turn it to the other side hopefully within 48 hrs of getting it from them
- Rescheduled some other lunches and meetings that the snow meeting reschedule screwed up (two with PE guys, one with a lawyer, one with a CEO of a company I want to sell)
- Discussed a term sheet on an offer we are about to make to a company where we are representing a large public buyer with the corp dev guys at that buyer

...hmm...probably some stuff/calls I missed, but it's 3pm... I'll leave at like 6:15pm, put my kids to bed, and work again around 9-10 probably, maybe later..

That seemed to be rambling, but hopefully helpful.

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002

BingoMcJiggles posted:

Not that great as I'm still looking for a job at the moment. I’m trying to get into trading. The problem is most people don’t want to be quants after doing the program.

That is incredibly ironic considering most people enter wanting to become quants. I guess making term sheets for exotics all day isn't as riveting as people think it will be. I've gone through all of Wilmott's stuff and its certainly not something I'd ever want to do. Props to you for finishing.

If there is interest in trading, I have a US-based list of all upper tier trading shops (some prop, some MM) that I assembled over the years (although some lower level ones did sneak in). If any of you want it, send me a PM. I was able to get it down to 50 or so.

I'm in the market for new trading/capital market leads. I just got rejected today for a position I've been interviewing for since October, so I have to start over.

5436
Jul 11, 2003

by astral
Whats my best path to a MFE if I had a low undergrad GPA?

BingoMcJiggles
Dec 19, 2004

LactoseO.D.'d posted:

That is incredibly ironic considering most people enter wanting to become quants. I guess making term sheets for exotics all day isn't as riveting as people think it will be. I've gone through all of Wilmott's stuff and its certainly not something I'd ever want to do. Props to you for finishing.

If there is interest in trading, I have a US-based list of all upper tier trading shops (some prop, some MM) that I assembled over the years (although some lower level ones did sneak in). If any of you want it, send me a PM. I was able to get it down to 50 or so.

I'm in the market for new trading/capital market leads. I just got rejected today for a position I've been interviewing for since October, so I have to start over.

The job market is really bad for quants right now. Right now the market for structured products/OTC exotic products is pretty much dead. Regulators looking to push these things to the major trading exchanges means much lower profit margins.

Another problem is that schools are producing too many MFE graduates. Almost every MFE program in 2007/2008 had 100% placement, because admissions was really competitive. The top tier programs like Berkeley, CMU, NYU, etc would only admit about 70 students each. Second tier programs like Rutgers and Kent State would admit like 10 students a year. Now many of these schools have several different masters programs that are almost identical to their flagship MFE.

BingoMcJiggles
Dec 19, 2004

5436 posted:

Whats my best path to a MFE if I had a low undergrad GPA?

I would find a MFE program that you really want to go, and just take courses as a non degree student. Try to get at least a 3.6. Most of these programs will let you transfer the course credits you took as a non degree student to your masters if you're later admitted into the program.

5436
Jul 11, 2003

by astral

BingoMcJiggles posted:

The job market is really bad for quants right now. Right now the market for structured products/OTC exotic products is pretty much dead. Regulators looking to push these things to the major trading exchanges means much lower profit margins.

Another problem is that schools are producing too many MFE graduates. Almost every MFE program in 2007/2008 had 100% placement, because admissions was really competitive. The top tier programs like Berkeley, CMU, NYU, etc would only admit about 70 students each. Second tier programs like Rutgers and Kent State would admit like 10 students a year. Now many of these schools have several different masters programs that are almost identical to their flagship MFE.

So whats the next best way to break into the industry while doing something analytical?

Socialism
May 9, 2009

Thoogsby posted:

Do you recall what type of (if any) recruiting seminars were held in the summer at LSE? I'll hopefully be there from the beginning of July through the middle of August and I really want to capitalize on my time there.

There aren't any (as far as I know) that are held at LSE, but many firms hold sessions on-site. I believe Bain (consulting), Morgan Stanley, and Barclays did it last year. You may have to bugger the career services centre to find out some of them, but I don't know what kind of resources are available for summer students. Some of banks actually post the events on their website and you can just register online.

If you want to actually land a job, the best way is just try to make as many friends as possible and use good ol' networking and asking around. But it won't be easy as you do not attend a UK school full time and some employers might shrug you off.

To be frank - unless you have some overwhelming desire to jump ship to a different firm/job in London, just enjoy your time there. Opportunities are still greater and better (as far as my very limited knowledge tells me) in the U.S. I originally brought up those sessions because I think they're a good way to meet like-minded people and learn more about other types of jobs.

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.

Socialism posted:

There aren't any (as far as I know) that are held at LSE, but many firms hold sessions on-site. I believe Bain (consulting), Morgan Stanley, and Barclays did it last year. You may have to bugger the career services centre to find out some of them, but I don't know what kind of resources are available for summer students. Some of banks actually post the events on their website and you can just register online.

If you want to actually land a job, the best way is just try to make as many friends as possible and use good ol' networking and asking around. But it won't be easy as you do not attend a UK school full time and some employers might shrug you off.

To be frank - unless you have some overwhelming desire to jump ship to a different firm/job in London, just enjoy your time there. Opportunities are still greater and better (as far as my very limited knowledge tells me) in the U.S. I originally brought up those sessions because I think they're a good way to meet like-minded people and learn more about other types of jobs.


Well I go to a Co-Op school and there are a few positions in London (including one at GS) that I may be interested in. I'm going to talk to people at my school who've had the position and see if I can't get some contact info and try to set up an informational interview or something. But I'd also like to make as many connections with bankers at big global banks as possible.

I don't go to a target school so my plan is to utilize my time at one as best as possible.

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear
I've been involved pretty heavily with my firm's recruiting efforts this year, starting with screening full-time candidates last fall and summer candidates now. We are just about done with this year's recruiting season, and having been through countless phone and in-person interviews I'd like to share the following advice:

1. Don't drone; your answers should be concise. From your perspective it's your fascinating life story that you're sharing, but all your interviewer can think about is that there are six more interviews to go and that he really needs to start working on that pitch that's due tomorrow morning. Don't take it personally, but it's really really hard to stay engaged when it's 3pm and you've been listening to the same answers for the past 6 hours

2. Emphasizing that you have ties to the specific market you're interviewing for (geographically I mean) can be very big, particularly if you're not interviewing for a spot in New York. Often times, I've seen this tip the balance in favor of a slightly less qualified candidate versus one that is non-committal

3. Network your rear end off - people from completely random non-target schools get tossed into our interview pile all the time, and some do very well. We really really like the initiative that people show when they have to work for an interview instead of having the opportunity handed to them on the platter that is OCR (having said that if you move heaven and earth to get an interview and then choke on the most basic technicals that's a complete waste of your time, which brings us to...)

4. Know your technicals cold. You should be comfortable with basic Vault guide concepts. There is no excuse. Interviewers typically ask candidates the same technical questions, and use these as a basis to rank them. Getting your answers to these technicals right is far far far more important than answering a "soft" question right (eg. where do you see yourself in 5 years). Of course if you're meeting with someone relatively senior they're not going to ask you technicals at all

5. Please err on the side of being eager instead of diffident. We've had situations where someone nailed everything about the interview, except they didn't seem too enthusiastic about the opportunity, and we ended up giving the spot to someone who was less polished but much more keen

6. Do try and edit your resume to remove non-relevant experience. Less is more. BE RUTHLESS. I think I read on average about five to seven lines per resume. Better to have just the one relevant internship on there instead of burying it between five student organizations and two summers working retail - that increases the chance that people will spot it and put your resume in the "yes" pile

e> If you send a thank you note with the wrong name on it, you're automatically getting dinged. Believe it or not, this has happened multiple times. Please triple check!

got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Feb 3, 2011

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002
^^ What sort of positions is this for?

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear
investment banking analyst, both summer and full-time

tolerabletariff
Jul 3, 2009

Do you think I'm spooky?
Welp I'm interviewing for summer internships next week. Goldman, Barclays, and a boutique, all three back-to-back. gently caress.

Its Miller Time
Dec 4, 2004

Mr. WTF posted:

Not sure if you are still reading, but I'm an managing director with a boutique tech focused M&A shop. Here's a quick version of today:

What would you say are the main ways you spend time driving in new business? How would you say you divide your time between managing the staff and progress of the work in your office, talking with the existing clients, and soliciting new ones?

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear

tolerabletariff posted:

Welp I'm interviewing for summer internships next week. Goldman, Barclays, and a boutique, all three back-to-back. gently caress.

Pro tip: the best interview slots are 10am - noon

Good luck; may I ask the boutique's name?

Mandalay
Mar 16, 2007

WoW Forums Refugee
Would a hypothetical analyst who worked twice as fast as an average analyst get to go home early in banking?

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002

Mandalay posted:

Would a hypothetical analyst who worked twice as fast as an average analyst get to go home early in banking?

I'm guessing they'd just give him twice as much work and pay him 10% more.

gvibes
Jan 18, 2010

Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

Mandalay posted:

Would a hypothetical analyst who worked twice as fast as an average analyst get to go home early in banking?
I am not in banking, but the answer is no.

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.

Mandalay posted:

Would a hypothetical analyst who worked twice as fast as an average analyst get to go home early in banking?

Simple answer: No.

Its Miller Time
Dec 4, 2004

Mandalay posted:

Would a hypothetical analyst who worked twice as fast as an average analyst get to go home early in banking?

“Everyone wants to be a bodybuilder, but no one wants to life heavy-rear end weight!”-Ron Coleman. No. You move at the speed and whim of those above you and the clients involved in the deals you're on. Very often you are simply waiting for revisions and updates to the materials you're responsible for to be returned from those more senior than you.

edit: If this thread is about investment banks in general, I'd appreciate someone with more experience with the internal workings of a major bank giving a little information. How does a loan go from a small regional bank to a part of a structured product? What are some of the major ways ibanks loan money?

Its Miller Time fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Feb 4, 2011

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear

LactoseO.D.'d posted:

I'm guessing they'd just give him twice as much work and pay him 10% more.

This is the correct answer. You really do get abused more if you're good and try hard.

However, having a solid reputation is vital for buyside recruiting.

So you have to carefully weigh the trade off between exit opportunities and not getting killed all the time.

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.

Mandalay posted:

Would a hypothetical analyst who worked twice as fast as an average analyst get to go home early in banking?

To elaborate, a good portion of your time as an analyst is spent "on the beach". Meaning that you might not be working on something but you're waiting to work on something or get an assignment. Even if you're unaware of any pending assignments you still need to be ready to work.

Also if you're rushing through your work you're likely to make mistakes in a profession that doesn't tolerate them.

LactoseO.D.'d
Jun 3, 2002
Would anyone like to throw out some recruiters worth checking out? I'll throw out Drum Associates and Selby Jennings.

Mandalay
Mar 16, 2007

WoW Forums Refugee

Thoogsby posted:

To elaborate, a good portion of your time as an analyst is spent "on the beach". Meaning that you might not be working on something but you're waiting to work on something or get an assignment. Even if you're unaware of any pending assignments you still need to be ready to work.

Is there literally nothing to work on during this time, or are you doing long-term projects? I find it hard to believe that you can work 14 hours a day at peak efficiency for a sustained period of time.

5436
Jul 11, 2003

by astral

Mandalay posted:

Is there literally nothing to work on during this time, or are you doing long-term projects? I find it hard to believe that you can work 14 hours a day at peak efficiency for a sustained period of time.

While I'm not in ibanking (yet) I've noticed no one "works" like you do in college when you trying to finish a huge project you put off so you work like 16 hours on a Saturday nonstop doing math/diagrams/writing/coding. Maybe like .01% of people can do that 5 days a week, most of the time work is some task that isn't very mentally demanding, presentations/meetings, waiting for other people to finish stuff for you to go through.

tolerabletariff
Jul 3, 2009

Do you think I'm spooky?
.

tolerabletariff fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Aug 23, 2012

Thoogsby
Nov 18, 2006

Very strong. Everyone likes me.

tolerabletariff posted:

I find it incredibly obnoxious that I have athlete buddies with poo poo resumes that got a bunch of i-banking interviews that I didn't. I mean, you can make the argument that their time commitment means they'd be able to cope better with the 90-hour workweeks, but that shouldn't really make them more qualified.

I think it has a lot to do with being able to work in a team environment and not drive the people around you crazy.

Omerta
Feb 19, 2007

I thought short arms were good for benching :smith:
I'm a law school student right now and I have a firm interview coming up. It's a large firm that handles a lot of M&A work. Since the two professions are pretty intimately connected, I was wondering if I could get some of your thoughts on what lawyers could do to better meet company-side needs. Or framed less positively, what do attorneys do that really piss you off and frustrate your business.

I'd like to know for interview fodder and to not embarrass myself in case I do get the job.

TheSherpa
Mar 3, 2008

Omerta posted:

I'm a law school student right now and I have a firm interview coming up. It's a large firm that handles a lot of M&A work. Since the two professions are pretty intimately connected, I was wondering if I could get some of your thoughts on what lawyers could do to better meet company-side needs. Or framed less positively, what do attorneys do that really piss you off and frustrate your business.

I'd like to know for interview fodder and to not embarrass myself in case I do get the job.

I know many first year analysts who poo poo on Partners at top law firms. Lawyers are literally bankers bitches, and are honestly there because compliance makes them be. poo poo flows downhill, and downhill are lawyers and BO guys. I was always nice, but I never really let the stress get to me fwiw.

For short, avoid law, especially if you have to deal with bankers.

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got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear

tolerabletariff posted:

Why are those the best? My Goldman and Barclays are both mid-afternoon, I have classes in the morning

You don't want to be too early because then the interviewers aren't totally awake and engaged. You don't want to be right before lunch or a break because that's all that the interviewers will be thinking about. You don't want to go after lunch because the interviewers will be asleep. You don't want to be at the end of the day because the interviewers will be tired and have trouble distinguishing you from the ten people that have gone before.

A colleague and I recently conducted final rounds for summer analysts at one school; we ended up giving offers to the two people whom we interviewed at around 11am.

tolerabletariff posted:

I find it incredibly obnoxious that I have athlete buddies with poo poo resumes that got a bunch of i-banking interviews that I didn't. I mean, you can make the argument that their time commitment means they'd be able to cope better with the 90-hour workweeks, but that shouldn't really make them more qualified.

it's simple - finance is a somewhat of an insular, clannish industry, within which the jocks are a distinct subgroup that takes care of their own. Being from the Ivy League also helps in the same way.

e> athletes demonstrably have the discipline to wake up early and follow orders unquestioningly all day without complaining. This is a valuable skill

got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Feb 9, 2011

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