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Oh Em Gee posted:Pre-UFC, you are pretty much looking at Pancrase. You'll find A LOT of Japanese wrestlers that you'll recognize. Some of the fights are worked but there are some real, legit fights in there. Pancrase only broke off from the other UWF remnants a few months before UFC started, and the work percentage for Pancrase fights at the beginning was far higher than later on (same thing with RINGS and even PRIDE). Before that MMA in the 20th century would have mostly consisted of vale tudo, of which things like records and video are pretty scarce on, and your occasional freak show mixed matches like Inoki/Ali and Gracie/Kimura. If you go back even further to around the turn of the century, the origins of professional wrestling were a shoot and then it starts getting real confusing.
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Feb 2, 2011 07:15
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It's actually British Double a lot more than British Single.
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Feb 2, 2011 08:15
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You also get into some weird "what is MMA" parts of the story around here. Earlier organizations like RINGS and Pancrase and Shooto and even very early UFC and PRIDE not only had very much different rules than what we'd now consider MMA but were worked for both outcomes and match excitement to varying degrees. MMA and pro wrestling were basically the same sport in Japan until the latter stages of PRIDE, and even now there's still a ton of crossover.
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Feb 2, 2011 22:54
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kensei posted:Jeez extra pressure! If you don't mind I'll write up some quick newcomer friendly previews for you.
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Feb 3, 2011 02:48
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I tried to write this at least somewhat from the "I have no clue about MMA" perspective. THE MAIN CARD, 10 PM ON PAY-PER-VIEW Main event: Anderson Silva (c) vs. Vitor Belfort for the UFC Middleweight Championship Quick synopsis: Considered one of the top three or so pound for pound fighters in the world, Anderson Silva has won 13 in a row, essentially clearing out the UFC middleweight division save Yushin Okami. Enter Vitor Belfort, former light heavyweight champion and heavyweight contender. Anderson Silva is one of the best strikers in MMA, using tremendous movement, precision striking, and great power in both his hands and knees to create some highlight reel knockouts. Silva's weakness has long been considered his wrestling, something which Belfort is unlikely to expose. In his last fight, Silva was dominated in all aspects for 23 minutes by a heavy underdog, former NCAA All-American and Olympic alternate wrestler Chael Sonnen, before submitting him with a desperation triangle in one of the great title fights in UFC history. Silva is 35 and has been criticized for underperforming not only in the Sonnen fight but in recent title defenses where he didn't look so hot against mid-level performers like Patrick Cote, Thales Leites, and Demian Maia. Vitor "The Phenom" Belfort is a star from an earlier time, who originally burst onto the UFC scene in the late-1990s. At a time when essentially nobody knew what the gently caress they were doing, he was a dynamic and explosive fighter and scored a number of brutal knockouts. Belfort's career has been a bit star-crossed, with both personal and professional disasters mixed in with brilliant quick knockouts, over the last decade, but he's still only 33. Belfort still has great striking (for MMA) and good wrestling and BJJ, but his cardio usually sucks and he's fairly untested cutting to middleweight. You occasionally hear "The Old Vitor Is Back!" when he adds to his long highlight reel of KOs, but in reality he's been getting decisioned by cardio machine wrestlers since UFC 15 so that was part of The Old Vitor too. Belfort originally got a titleshot based on a catchweight fight by Rich Franklin, then lost it due to injuries, and got it back when Chael Sonnen was suspended for drug use and then pleading guilty to federal money laundering charges. Silva is a -250 (2 1/2 to 1) favorite on the betting line. This is likely to be an explosive standing fight and stylistically is a fun matchup. Co-main event: Forrest Griffin vs. Rich Franklin Quick synopsis: Griffin and Franklin are two popular former champions who usually have excellent fights, making this a perfect co-main event bout. The details: Forrest Griffin is an overachiever who lacks any great skills but is good everywhere, always fights hard, and has pretty good cardio. He was thought to be a mid-level attraction until he knocked off Shogun Rua to become the number one contender for the LHW title and Rampage Jackson to win the title, both considered massive upsets. He lost the title in December 2008 to Rashad Evans, and has only fought twice since amid injuries: getting embarassingly knocked out by Anderson Silva and decisioning Tito Ortiz. Forrest used to be known as a brawler and had a terrible habit of rushing forward with his chin out, but in recent years has become a more technical fighter. Rich "Ace" Franklin would probably be considered one of the greatest fighters ever in a world where Anderson Silva didn't exist. Like Griffin, he's a guy who is good everywhere, although much more technically sound, and almost always puts on a good performance. Rich has been in a lot of big fights and only lost to Silva twice, Belfort, Dan Henderson, and Lyoto Machida, all top fighters and champions. Because Anderson Silva is a terrible stylistic matchup for Franklin and his best weight class would probably be around 195 - he's a little too big to comfortably make 185 and a little smaller for 205 - Franklin has bounced up and down between 185, 205, and catchweights since losing the middleweight title to Silva in 2006 and losing a rematch in 2007. He appears to have settled at 205 now. Franklin is a slight favorite on the betting line. It should be an exciting, fast-paced fight. Although this fight doesn't have immediate title implications, both of these guys have a decent name win in their last fight (Griffin over Tito, Franklin over Chuck Liddell) and are never that far from title contention if they string together some wins. Although neither have great weaknesses except slightly questionable chins, Franklin is more skilled than Griffin almost everywhere. But Griffin has a big size advantage. Jon Jones vs. Ryan Bader Quick synopsis: Despite the lower billing, this fight has much greater implications in the light heavyweight title picture, with the winner in the mix for the next shot. It's also a fight between two of the most promising up-and-comers in mixed martial arts. The details: Jon "Bones" Jones is known for his flashy and creative style. His background is as a national champion wrestler at the junior college level, but Jones also has incredibly flashy and innovative striking and is generally one of the most athletic guys in the sport. He's 6-1 in the UFC, all performances quite dominant with the only loss a controversial DQ for an illegal elbow as he was finishing Matt Hamill. Ryan Bader is undefeated, coming off an impressive decision over Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. Bader was a collegiate wrestler at Arizona State and won season 8 of The Ultimate Fighter. His style is more of your traditional folkstyle wrestler turned wrestleboxer, and while he's pretty good some of his fights have been pretty boring humpathons. Jones is a -350 favorite. While that seems steep, he's a lot more versatile and his wrestling base makes it unlikely that Bader will be able to wrestlefuck him. Miguel Angel Torres vs. Antonio Banuelos Quick synopsis: The first main card fight in UFC's new bantamweight division, this matches up a former WEC bantamweight champion with a longtime WEC contender who has never gotten a title fight. And it should be a dandy. Miguel Torres loving rules. His fights always own, his interviews and Twitter owns, his groundwork owns, and his striking owns although somewhat less. After holding the WEC bantamweight title for a year and a half, during which all of his fights were basically fight of the year candidates, he dropped the title to Brian Bowles via a flash KO and then got guillotined trying to get back into contention by fellow awesome ground guy Joseph Benavidez. Antonio Banuelos is probably most famous for training with Chuck Liddell, but he's not exactly a slouch. A WEC guy since before Zuffa even owned the company, he's had a lot of fights too, and usually beaten the weaker guys and lost to the contenders. Like Torres, his fights are always fight of the night candidates. His style is kinda similar to Liddell in that he's a brawler who can wrestle when he wants to, but he's not really as good as Liddell was in his prime. Torres is a -500 favorite. This fight exists to be really great and to introduce Torres as a contender to the wider UFC audience. The lighter weight classes usually have great fast-paced fights between guys who are good, and this should be no different. Jake Ellenberger vs. Carlos Eduardo Rocha Quick synopsis: Your classic wrestler vs. BJJ expert bout. Jake Ellenberger is another wrestler off the assembly line. He has generally looked pretty impressive since joining UFC after a long B-league career, losing a close decision to Carlos Condit and beating decent guys in Mike Pyle and John Howard. He was supposed to be tested against top contender Jon Fitch, but Fitch was pulled to instead fight BJ Penn. We don't really know a ton about Carlos Eduardo Rocha quite yet. He's a very well decorated BJJ guy, but that doesn't always translate to MMA. Rocha has a bunch of quick stoppages, mostly submissions, in the European Z-leagues and quickly submitted Kris McCray, who may or may not suck, in his UFC debut. This will be a big test for him as an overall fighter. The problem with the classic wrestler vs. BJJ guy fights is that sometimes they end up being kickboxing fights between lovely strikers. Let's hope that doesn't happen here. UNDERCARD FIGHTS AIRING FOR FREE ON SPIKE TV AT 9 PM Donald Cerrone vs. Paul Kelly Quick synopsis: One of WEC's top lightweights is making his debut against a European gatekeeper, which will tell us a lot about the guys coming over at 155 from the WEC. The details: Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone was one of the most popular fighters in WEC. His fights were usually very good, he's an interesting interview, he makes fun of Jamie Varner a lot, and he wears a cool hat. He's almost a pure kickboxer and has shown significant deficiencies in wrestling. Although he was never a champion in WEC, he did beat some of the other top lightweights in that division and hung with most others. So by proxy Cerrone's performance here as the first guy crossing over will be used to peg the approximate talent level of the division, which is uncertain. Paul Kelly is an okay English guy who was originally brought in to be a local on the UFC's European shows. For some reason he's showed up on American shows lately. He's your classic gatekeeper and has good wrestling on the British scale (damning with faint praise). Cerrone is a -340 favorite. On paper he should walk through Kelly, and if he doesn't there's going to be a ton of people questioning the WEC lightweights. Chad Mendes vs. Michihiro Omigawa Quick synopsis: A featherweight title eliminator between a top UFC contender and a redebuting top Japanese fighter. This fight should be great too. Chad "Money" Mendes is another top wrestler coming into MMA. A NCAA national runner-up and PAC-Ten Wrestler of the Year, Mendes started in MMA with Team Alpha Male (cue Master Thonglor jokes) just a little over two years ago but has quickly moved his way into title contention beating an increasingly better list of opponents. In addition to some of the best wrestling credentials in the division, his striking keeps looking better and better. Mendes is probably the next guy in line for a title shot at the Aldo/Hominick winner with a victory here. Michihiro Omigawa was a pretty good judoka who went into MMA, which happens a lot in Japan. He started out as a crappy lightweight, going 0-2 in his first UFC stint, before dropping to featherweight, which is a better class for him. He scored some big upsets to make the finals of Sengoku's featherweight tournament, and since then has won five straight against not entirely terrible opposition. Mendes is a -340 favorite, and on paper is a lot better. But Omigawa's been in the deep end and pulled it out before. Another one that should be a quick, fun, grapplefest. UNDERCARD FIGHT AIRING FOR FREE ON FACEBOOK/UFC STREAMING AT 8 PM Kid Yamamoto vs. Demetrious "Mighty Mouse" Johnson Quick synopsis: Kid Yamamoto finally makes his long-awaited UFC debut and has the size advantage for probably the first time ever. At one time, Kid Yamamoto was considered the best featherweight in the world and the biggest star in Japanese MMA when that was a notable achievement. Now he makes his American debut eighth from the top as a bantamweight. Yamamoto when he's on his game has both wrestling - he went to high school in America and was an Arizona state champion - and striking - he was a K-1 kickboxer and only somewhat sucked at it. Despite being badly undersized, he regularly competed and beat top guys as high as lightweight. Injuries and scandals looked to take their toll on him the last few years, and now he's coming to America and dropping to his natural weight class. Demetrious Johnson would probably be, along with Joseph Benavidez, one of the handful of best flyweights in the world. But that class doesn't yet exist in any major American organization, although UFC has talked about starting one. So he toils as an undersized bantamweight. He's an all-around very good fighter who, like many on this card, usually has great high-paced fights. Kid is a very slight favorite. We don't really know how much Kid has left in the tank and no outcome would really be shocking here. oldfan fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 04:25
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Coitus_Interruptus posted:As a fan of combat sports I become invested in the outcome of an authentic contest and I don't get how people do the same in a sport where its common knowledge that the outcomes are part of a larger dramatization. In terms of storylines and drama, I don't think it's really any different than getting invested in the outcome of a scripted television show. Pro wrestling can be really good when it's done well, it's just not done well all the time (or even much at all these days IMO).
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Feb 3, 2011 04:34
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fatherdog posted:I don't count that fight I'll edit it
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Feb 3, 2011 04:35
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KungFu Grip posted:What is the deal with New York? Essentially one state assemblyman named Bob Reilly, a Democrat from upstate, is a vehement opponent of MMA (and all combat sports including boxing). Reilly is a close ally of probably the worst politician in the country, the corrupt assembly speaker Shelly Silver. Because of their close relationship and that he doesn't really give a poo poo in general, Silver is refusing to allow MMA legalization to even come up for a vote.
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Feb 3, 2011 07:27
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Perdido posted:1, What's the deal with UFC cutting guys? I understand that if you lose twice you're cut from the roster (usually) but why is the threshold for losses so low? Are fighters who are signed with UFC receive other benefits, or is it just Dana White (or whoever) wanting to give the illusion that UFC is nothing but the best? The UFC only has so many roster spots available to fill so many fights on so many shows per year, thus more or less for every new guy they bring in they have to cut someone. With only rare exceptions, guys cut are usually fighters who have no championship potential, don't bring anything else to the table such as popularity or consistently great fights, and are coming off a loss where they didn't look good. It's not cut and dry that guys are cut after two losses. Some guys have been cut after just one, some guys stay around for four or more. It depends. quote:2, My brother sent me this Youtube clip of a fight with a dude who was nicknamed 'the Korean Zombie' against some other dude, who I think is Leonard Garcia. I can't find the particular clip now, but it was basically the two of them beating the hell out of each other. From what I saw, the Korean Zombie had the upper hand for a good deal of the fight, yet wasn't awarded the win. Wikipedia tells me it was a 'controversial' decision, but doesn't explain why Garcia won. Was it a bribe/something shady going on or did he get more style points (?) or something? It was a very close fight and a lot of people don't like Leonard Garcia. Some people get very angry about decisions in very close fights, which makes it harder to tell the real robberies from the "this guy maybe should have won but a score giving the other guy a win is defensible" fights; Garcia/Jung was one of the latter. Garcia did get a robbery decision over another guy named Nam Phan, though.
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Feb 8, 2011 09:25
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Mr. Carlisle posted:Just read a bit of the most recent Strikeforce thread trying to get the swing of things and I see alot of people celebrating Fedor being dealt another loss - is there a reason that he seems pretty hated here? I like Fedor personally but despise his cult of personality (see amokgonzo/treazn's post history) and the management that kept him from fighting top competition for so long.
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Feb 13, 2011 07:52
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mobn posted:I would if I were wrong. As it stands, I have an actual degree in writing and the english language, and id there's one thing I've ever posted that I'm not wrong about, it's this. Welp.
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Mar 7, 2011 00:06
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mobn posted:I was posting from my phone. Well besides looking like a pretty epic idiot in general here you probably should have checked your grammar bragpost for grammar.
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Mar 7, 2011 00:28
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fatherdog posted:Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bas and Quadros made it a talking point originally IIRC "watch out for Dan's big right hand" was basically their version of "Chuck's got that look in his eyes."
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Mar 7, 2011 01:03
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UFC doesn't release salary information, the commissions do. So the answer is that commissions only require contract salaries and not bonuses. UFC chooses to release the competitive bonuses, presumably as a public incentive for guys to finish/have great fights.
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Mar 14, 2011 00:35
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Halloween Jack posted:But how much of their total earnings are they paying their manager and training camp and all the related costs, like travel? I imagine it's usually a smaller percentage at the top level as the training costs don't scale with income, but I wonder what Freddie Roach charges by the hour for boxing lessons. This is actually less true than you'd think. Low level guys are mostly training at their local gym where they're also teaching at, whereas many UFC star types are running their own personal camp and bringing in personal coaches, training partners, etc.
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Mar 17, 2011 09:19
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Jack of Hearts posted:Can someone explain this 10th Planet JJ/Eddie Bravo stuff to me? I feel like I've mostly seen it mentioned as mad stoner jiu-jitsu with limited practical application, but in that case why does it have the profile it does to begin with? Joe Rogan is a Bravo brown belt and mainstreamed a lot of the terms, and Bravo himself used to be UFC's version of Harold Lederman.
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Mar 27, 2011 23:18
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Haraksha posted:Eddie Bravo won ADCC in 2003 He didn't actually win, he came in 4th, but he triangled Royler Gracie in the quarters when Royler was considered one of the best submission grapplers in the world and Bravo was basically a semi-random Machado brown belt. It was a Real Big Deal.
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Mar 28, 2011 01:46
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Pwny_Xpress posted:please explain this Bonnar got popped for roids in the second Griffin fight, which kept him on the shelf for a year and caused him to lose a lot of the same UFC/SPIKE publicity gigs that Forrest had. Since then he's been positioned as much less of a star and has nowhere near the profile that Forrest has in general.
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Apr 3, 2011 07:28
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Various writers, fighters, and legal proceedings have also revealed that everyone makes significantly more than their listed guarantee in contractual or discretionary bonuses.
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Dec 31, 2011 01:10
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If you can find a copy of PRIDE Fighting Decade, that's a pretty good watch.
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Feb 5, 2012 03:23
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MycroftXXX posted:Someone did an effort post not too long after MMA came to the newly formed PSP (it might have been fatherdog) giving some history about hendo. Hendo basically came into MMA with the perfect skillset to be a boring blanket wrestler, but instead went into his fights as a fist swinging wildman. Hendo is pretty awesome. Hendo has went through his periods as a boring blanket wrestler too, one of his old nicknames was Decision Dan.
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Feb 28, 2012 01:51
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Why the gently caress would the Japanese even bother to have Dos Caras take a dive against Mirko Crocop?
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Jun 5, 2012 23:29
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Belle Isle Tech posted:The only thing I can think of is licensing issues for the music used in the original broadcast that forced them to change it up when releasing the DVDs, but I also don't remember the US PPV's having the intros either. That's the reason for both. Almost all of the PRIDE shows were tape delayed for the US PPV market, so they edited out the licensed music there too to save a few bucks.
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Aug 3, 2012 04:48
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projecthalaxy posted:I know Pride had a couple, but has a UFC fight ever been proven/even heavily suspected as being worked? I mean, obviously judges' decisions will always have that question, but have there been any cases of someone straight taking a dive? Oleg Taktarov vs. Anthony Macias
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Aug 14, 2012 01:15
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Forceholy posted:Is there a reason why Randy Couture is not in the UFC Undisputed games, but is featured in EA MMA? Couture signed an exclusive deal with EA during the period where he was suing Zuffa. Of course now EA has the UFC license and Couture and Zuffa are on great terms so he'll be back.
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Jan 13, 2013 03:15
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Mr. Carlisle posted:Seeing stuff like this brings up a few questions - Have there been fighters that have been suspended/fired or anything like that for continuing to beat the poo poo out of a guy they just knocked out or submitted long after the ref has called the fight? Babalu was fired for refusing to release a choke, yeah. Rousimar Palhares is known for coming really close to that line without managing to get shitcanned over it.
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Feb 3, 2013 07:31
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timeandtide posted:Has PP ever had a Hulk Hogan or general "behind the scenes dirt" thread? There's an amazing amount of lying and manipulation brought up in the WCW Death thread based on Hogan's wacky autobio that I'd love to hear more about Hogan or that part of the industry. The carnies thread is pretty close to that, yeah. The thread that this thread is modeled on is the wrestling questions thread which is also largely about that sort of thing. I don't recall a Hogan thread off the top of my head, but his bullshit is prominent in both of those.
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Aug 10, 2013 16:34
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getitoffgetitoff posted:Casual MMA fan question: why exactly did John Fitch get cut from UFC? They thought he was done as a contender and he didn't get a free pass for being entertaining or a loyal company guy. Considering he got choked out by Josh Burkman in his first fight out, they were probably right.
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Oct 24, 2013 03:07
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The Duck of Death posted:Was Rickson/Takada a work? I've heard no but it sure looked like one. Both of the Takada vs. Rickson fights were shoots. The worked Takada fights are the ones he won, it really didn't make sense for them to work fights to have the native hero lose.
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Nov 6, 2013 04:46
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