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Tato posted:Na, I enjoyed War Zone as well, especially the weird story where Frank was put in some Matrix-like virtual reality where his family was alive. Punisher, Punisher War Journal, and Punisher War Zone all wrapped up with the "Countdown" crossover. Oh, I remember this. This was back in 1997-99 when Marvel was trying to fit everything into the Onslaught crossover and it was never, ever going to work. It was near the crappy Heroes Reborn crossover. I remember near the very end they were going to fit Punisher in alongside the X-Cutioner. I think Frank bought it by getting caught in a train explosion or something. Which would be a metaphor for shame. The worst part of it is that it took the formerly gritty War Journal/Original Series/War Zone and turned it into a really cartoony style. Not to mention it was the first appearance of Punisher Jigsaw with the alternate colored costume so he could be considered a true villain. And his 'scarring' was minimalized so it was just weird and not disturbing/gross as it should have been. Yeah, it was more awful than God Punisher. God Punisher was just weird and is still referenced in Ennis's earlier stories. But Ponytail SHIELD Punisher was just a bad idea. Snowman_McK posted:It's summed up in a line in Long Cold Dark, I'm paraphrasing, but it's something along the lines of "Back in Nam, they were my way home. When they were taken from me,they turned out to be my way home in the worst way" He was at home in War, his only gripe in Nam was that the war ended. He wanted a war that would never end. Frank Castle was a disguise he wore before Nam and after he came back, the Punisher's who he is, and was. Can they do Kitchen Irish since that Black Irish Guy got iced in the movie version of War Zone? I hope so because that story was pretty great, right down to the Irish Bomber whose face is barely being held on. That said, we need more dynamic Punisher villains. A lot of good ones end up being killed off way too fast.
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Feb 5, 2011 19:20
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:Can they do Kitchen Irish since that Black Irish Guy got iced in the movie version of War Zone? I hope so because that story was pretty great, right down to the Irish Bomber whose face is barely being held on. That said, we need more dynamic Punisher villains. A lot of good ones end up being killed off way too fast. First off, if you think a new Punisher movie will be at all related to that massive flop War Zone, you're crazy. Second, if you think they're going to do a new Punisher movie before they absolutely have to in order to keep the rights to the character, you're also insane.
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Feb 5, 2011 19:51
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TheJoker138 posted:First off, if you think a new Punisher movie will be at all related to that massive flop War Zone, you're crazy. Second, if you think they're going to do a new Punisher movie before they absolutely have to in order to keep the rights to the character, you're also insane. Marvel bought back the rights and said they have plans, maybe something in 2013 after Avengers.
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Feb 5, 2011 20:10
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They 'have plans' for every property higher profile than D-Man.
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Feb 5, 2011 20:14
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I've always found all the Punisher-related issues of What If to be pretty drat good, unless you count the one Daniel Way did a couple years ago where Wolverine became the Punisher in the 1920's... and Scarface turned out to be Dog instead of Al Capone. Yeah. All of these are from volume 2. #10: What If the Punisher's Family Hadn't Been Killed? People joke about this one because the answer is, "He still becomes the Punisher." The story is a little more psychological than what Punisher's origin was at the time of the issue before Ennis was able to deepen it. Plus it gives him an origin that doesn't rely as much on him being in Vietnam. Here, he and his family miss the mob killing in the park and he goes on to join the police force. He's frustrated by all the corruption going on and when he tries to blow the whistle on it, his family gets killed. The main difference in the output is that the Punisher focuses more on corrupt officials and he actually cares about public perception to the point of releasing info to the newspapers about why certain targets deserved it. This issue was used as the basis for Ultimate Punisher. #26: What If the Punisher Killed Daredevil? When Punisher shot Daredevil with a tranq on a rooftop, Daredevil accidentally fell off the roof and to his death. It's a solid issue, though probably the least interesting of all the What If/Punisher ones. What makes it is the subplot about Spider-Man dedicating himself to taking Frank down and how everything goes wrong because of it. #44: What If Venom Had Possessed the Punisher? Great issue by Kurt Busiek. Frank goes to the church a few minutes before Eddie Brock does and has Spider-Man on the mind, so he becomes the host for Venom. This came out a year or so before Lethal Protector, so it was like testing the waters for the idea of Venom as an anti-hero, plus works as a great preview for the upcoming Remender Venom series. Punisher uses the symbiote in ways Spider-Man would never think to (glider wings and arm guns) and increases his kill count. At the same time, the symbiote begins to take him over little by little and he's starting to learn that he isn't in control. #51: What If the Punisher Became Captain America? This one got a lot of play after Civil War happened. Captain America is horribly injured during one of his adventures, so the government looks for a replacement. Frank tells them to gently caress off. They try a series of other replacements (John Jameson, Bob Diamond, Leonard Samson), but they all fail. Then Frank's family buys it and he takes them up on the offer. He becomes too violent and brutal as Cap and soon begins to moonlight as the Punisher to do some REAL justice. He's becoming a major liability and the government has to stop him before things spiral out of control. One of the reasons this one's a good read is it's probably the only Punisher story that has a legitimate happy ending. #57: What If the Punisher Became an Agent of SHIELD? SHIELD is able to capture Frank and Fury tells him how much he respects him. He gives him the option of running his own unit in SHIELD or rotting in prison. Frank reluctantly takes the position, but is surprised by how much he loves it. No more killing minor drug dealers for kicks. He's getting the source now. For once in his war, he feels like he's making a real difference. Unfortunately, he's too much of a loose cannon for Nick Fury to handle and there's a lot of conflict between the two. The story has what may be the perfect ending to a Punisher story. #58: What If the Punisher Killed Spider-Man? When hired by the Jackal to eliminate Spider-Man, Frank's idea to disguise a pile of explosives as Doc Ock (so that Spider-Man would investigate his spider-sense and go near it) pays off and Spider-Man is dead. Unfortunately, the "master criminal" isn't what Frank thought he would be. He goes on the run, hunted down by Spider-Man's hero friends while Frank beats himself up over his betrayal at Jackal's hands and his guilt over killing an innocent kid like Parker. Features a cameo by Dennis Franz.
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Feb 5, 2011 20:26
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I had all those; they were all good stories but the art in #'s 51 and 58 were atrocious, even by 90s standards. #10 still holds up well, I re-read it a few years ago and still enjoyed it. #26 is striking for how quickly everything just goes straight to Hell after Daredevil is killed. Four major characters bite it, then you have the dramatic closing monologue by the Watcher. It made a real impression on little me. Poor Frank and Peter 
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Feb 5, 2011 20:41
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I loved #58, the look of glee on Frank's face when all of Parker's enemies throw a party for him is hilarious.
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Feb 6, 2011 05:03
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picosecond posted:I had all those; they were all good stories but the art in #'s 51 and 58 were atrocious, even by 90s standards. I don't see what's so bad about #58, but #51 definitely has its problems. More than anything, it's whoever did the coloring because everything's saturated to hell. What did you guys think of Punisher: Noir? I enjoyed it enough myself, though not nearly on the level of other good Punisher stories. I guess if anything, the miniseries lacked the anger of the character, though I do like the ending.
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Feb 6, 2011 07:34
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Secret shame: my undying love of Punisher 2099. His mission? TO BE EXTREME!
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Feb 7, 2011 06:27
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:Secret shame: my undying love of Punisher 2099. His mission? TO BE EXTREME! You are not alone here only I love the core 2099 line Doom, Spiderman, Punisher and yes even Ravage. I've actually got a drat near complete collection of all of them bought from quarter bins in the late 90's.
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Feb 7, 2011 17:47
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:Secret shame: my undying love of Punisher 2099. His mission? TO BE EXTREME!   Yep, I need to buy all of these.
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Feb 7, 2011 20:30
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E the Shaggy posted:
Pfft that's nothing. You need to try and dig up jigsaw 2099. Edit: Found some on here. From Punisher 2099 #10 Huge Jakes electric chair of the future Still big Punisher 2099 #11 You know the drill Len fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 7, 2011 |
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Feb 7, 2011 20:34
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Len posted:Pfft that's nothing. You need to try and dig up jigsaw 2099. They made Jigsaw into Mean Machine from Judge Dredd?  
E the Shaggy fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 7, 2011 |
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Feb 7, 2011 20:45
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E the Shaggy posted:This. This right here. Nothing the Punisher ever says or does will ever top the glory of this page. Close the thread, this is all anyone ever needs to know about Punisher distilled into one single glorious moment.
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Feb 7, 2011 20:59
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Dr. Hurt posted:This. This right here. Nothing the Punisher ever says or does will ever top the glory of this page. Close the thread, this is all anyone ever needs to know about Punisher distilled into one single glorious moment. It also sums up the 90's so it's like killing two birds with one stone right there. Edit: When I get home I'll try and find the issue that has the final fate of Jake Gallows and get his ridiculous over the top grim and gritty death on here. Also the issue is foil and holographic as gently caress. Len fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Feb 7, 2011 |
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Feb 7, 2011 21:00
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Len posted:Also the issue is foil and holographic as gently caress.
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Feb 7, 2011 21:25
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You can't tell so much in those panels, but in the first issue of Punisher 2099, he was totally Sylvester Stallone.
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Feb 7, 2011 21:34
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TheJoker138 posted:You can't tell so much in those panels, but in the first issue of Punisher 2099, he was totally Sylvester Stallone. I think I figured out where Stallone's Judge Dredd went wrong...
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Feb 7, 2011 21:55
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Gavok posted:#44: What If Venom Had Possessed the Punisher? Great issue by Kurt Busiek. Frank goes to the church a few minutes before Eddie Brock does and has Spider-Man on the mind, so he becomes the host for Venom. This came out a year or so before Lethal Protector, so it was like testing the waters for the idea of Venom as an anti-hero, plus works as a great preview for the upcoming Remender Venom series. Punisher uses the symbiote in ways Spider-Man would never think to (glider wings and arm guns) and increases his kill count. At the same time, the symbiote begins to take him over little by little and he's starting to learn that he isn't in control. I have and love both of these issues. In #51, is the blue outfit that Roger's uses at the end used only in that issue, or has it been seen in 616 continuity? Does anyone have a scan of Rogers in that outfit?
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Feb 7, 2011 21:55
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I hate being the one naysayer in here, but while I love Punisher Maxline....I always got the feeling while Ennis tried to deconstruct Castle motives he seemed to enjoy the Punishers mayhem a little too much. That and American culture is behind everything evil. with would be fine, but it literally is EVERYTHING.
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Feb 7, 2011 22:00
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PunisherMAX 10 is out today. WHat's the verdict, I won't hit the shop till tomorrow.
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Feb 9, 2011 22:26
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PunisherMax #010 was really good. I wouldn't say it was worth the ridiculously long wait though. The entire issue was effectively the discussion from page one with Bullseye coming to the realisation that Frank Castle, either through lack of action or through his own actions, killed his family so he'd be finally free to become The Punisher.
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Feb 10, 2011 13:28
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Yeah well if it gets back on track next month I won't mind too much. Is the tease for next month/arc any good?
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Feb 10, 2011 15:34
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Dickeye posted:Yeah well if it gets back on track next month I won't mind too much. It ends on a pretty good cliffhanger, and we've got at least one more issue of the Bullseye arc left.
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Feb 10, 2011 16:19
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Oh snap. I thought it was another five issue arc, like Kingpin. Menonite: Greatest dude to try to kill the Punisher, or greatest dude to try to kill the Punisher? Pretty sure the scene where he tails Frank in a buggy is the best ever.
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Feb 10, 2011 16:42
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E the Shaggy posted:I love how he has this massive Dirty Harry handgun that has a chain of bullets going to it. Because he just needs more than the normal six to go nuts. Such a shame the 2099 line went to poo poo about the same time Marvel did.
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Feb 10, 2011 19:55
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I like that Bullseye was keeping up the crazy talk the entire team he beat dudes down. Amazing.
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Feb 10, 2011 21:25
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I started collection Punisher comics in the late 80s/early 90s and made it my goal to possess a copy of every issue from Circle of Blood through Punisher, Punisher War Journal, War Zone and beyond. Fell out of collecting the same time that apparently everyone did, which was the 90s collapse. For The Punisher this collapse saw the cancellation of his three ongoing series and re-launch as a more passive pony-tailed mafia don. This terrible run only made it 18 issues before being cancelled. This was the same era as the weak-sauce Angel Punisher that effectively crushed the character until his highly successful resurrection by Ennis. Ennis' Max run (chronologically The Tiger or Born through The End) is the apex of the character with it being fairly unlikely any near term incarnation will come even close. The Max over-sized hardcovers have a position of honor on my altar of nerdry between Walking Dead and The Punisher Omnibus. The two greatest tragedies to befall the character in the 00s was the failure of the Thomas Jane Punisher game not catching on enough to warrant a true sequel (as well as not including New Game + which severely limited the replay) and the failure of Punisher War Zone, which was comic book movie perfection. December 5 2008, never forget.
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Feb 10, 2011 21:38
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I think I'm weird in that Punisher beating up mobsters or NRA members doesn't do it for me but a gun-wielding maniac fighting Stilt Man is my cup of tea. Like, I love Punisher interacting the the MU. His part in Civil War was gold. I love that this is just a nutso guy with guns who lives in a world with Spider-Man. I want him to team up with Ghost Rider to fight some angels who want him to come back to work for him. Sure, that storyline sucked, but gently caress it, it's there. Use it! I want him to cope with the fact that he knows what happens when you die, or even deal with the fact that he committed suicide once. I want him to destroy a Sentinel with a pistol and bigass knife. Mobsters are fun and all, but Punisher vs. MODOK is way more interesting.
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Feb 10, 2011 21:54
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Punisher War Zone was a lame-o movie after the Jane one. Also I think you mean IRA, not NRA.
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Feb 10, 2011 22:14
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Matt Cruea posted:
A problem with that is, you can't really send Frank after these big name supervillains, because really he's never going to be able to really kill any of them. I find that the Punisher works better for me in a real world scenario without superheroes. Though I will be the first to say that I loved that original Punisher/Wolverine fight in Ennis' MK run.
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Feb 10, 2011 22:19
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Matt Cruea posted:I want him to team up with Ghost Rider to fight some angels who want him to come back to work for him. Sure, that storyline sucked, but gently caress it, it's there. Use it! I want him to cope with the fact that he knows what happens when you die, or even deal with the fact that he committed suicide once. I want him to destroy a Sentinel with a pistol and bigass knife. This was a pretty good crossover from what I remember. 
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Feb 10, 2011 22:32
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Read that a ton. Mostly about Ghost Rider, though. Part of it was Danny realizing he didn't need the bike to transform.
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Feb 10, 2011 23:32
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E the Shaggy posted:A problem with that is, you can't really send Frank after these big name supervillains, because really he's never going to be able to really kill any of them. Who cares? I suspend my disbelief enough to accept Spider-Man having survived five billion fights with guys better than he is, and I accept that for some reason no one has murdered the Joker, I can accept Frank only being able to kill 400 AIM soldiers.
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Feb 11, 2011 00:13
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Dickeye posted:Punisher War Zone was a lame-o movie after the Jane one. War Zone was a piece of poo poo even compared to literal pieces of poo poo. Exploding rubber heads, neon lights all up in Franks throwback to the Lundgren movie sewer lair like it was Batman & Robin, ruining characters like Magginty, Pitsy, and Ink...everything about it was a mess. Everything.
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Feb 11, 2011 06:03
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I'm so glad to have Dillon back drawing Frank and friends instead of vampires. I really loved the new issue of PunisherMAX, and I have a good feeling that after he's done, Aaron will have left us with a fantastic long form Punisher story.
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Feb 11, 2011 06:54
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TheJoker138 posted:War Zone was a piece of poo poo even compared to literal pieces of poo poo. Exploding rubber heads, neon lights all up in Franks throwback to the Lundgren movie sewer lair like it was Batman & Robin, ruining characters like Magginty, Pitsy, and Ink...everything about it was a mess. Everything. Really? REALLY? I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I think that War Zone is the far better film. Sure, I'll give you that War Zone didn't to any justice to Ink and Pitsy (some of the coolest henchmen ever) but at least he spent the movie killing guys instead of stalking some closet homosexual. And the movie ended with a visceral shootout, instead of him blowing up a car lot for some reason. Sure the '04 movie is all cerebral, what with Frank tricking John Travolta into ruining his own life so he can be all "looks like you've been had  ". But that's my problem, Frank never really does that kind of stuff. I've never read a Punisher story where he spends most of the story not killing anyone so he can trick one guy into killing some people, then feeling really bad. Most Punisher stories I read go like this:1) There are some criminals, at a place, doing an illegal thing 2) The Punisher learns about point 1 3) All the criminals die I stand by my assumption that the only reason War Zone flopped at the box office was because its release got pushed to December.
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Feb 11, 2011 07:39
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Jane's Punisher was an origin story, and yeah, he wasn't the Punisher till literally the last scene in the movie. But almost all of it was ripped from either Welcome Back, Frank or Year One. And blame the lack of action scenes on the budget, which didn't allow them enough money to do nearly the amount they wanted to in that area.
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Feb 11, 2011 07:43
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When you really get down to it though, does the Punisher need a movie to explain his origin? He's the Punisher, he Punishes people. I think you could make a cerebral movie that involves what psychologically pushes the Punisher, while keeping the violence up to Punisher Max levels.
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Feb 11, 2011 07:53
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Dr. Hurt posted:When you really get down to it though, does the Punisher need a movie to explain his origin? He's the Punisher, he Punishes people. I think you could make a cerebral movie that involves what psychologically pushes the Punisher, while keeping the violence up to Punisher Max levels. If you notice most of the Ennis Max issues focus as much or if not more on the criminals he's hunting (or are hunting him) than on Frank. While I know it's been said before and it's probably not very feasible, but the best way to interpret the Punisher is a cable tv show along the same lines of The Wire, Sopranos or Dexter.
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Feb 11, 2011 08:17
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