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Tacos Al Pastor posted:Thank you for posting this. This is why I think we should only speak in Japanese inside the dojo. Jack B Nimble posted:Judo had decades of precedence in showing these techniques to Americans, it just never broke into the public consciousness the way the UFC did. "Opening the closed guard" asserts that there's no technique used in Brazilian Jiujitsu that isn't found in Judo until the IBJJF exponentially increases tournament participation in the the early aughts. The public at large, even the majority of the martial artists in the USA, may have considered UFC 1 a revolution, but fundamentally there's nothing there that couldn't have been done by a Judoka with a preference for the ground game. Joe Rogan has an anecdote where he (with essentially only a kick boxing background at this point) gets a hold of a VHS tape of the event and has his view of fighting challenged by the fights; it seems like Royce is just dragging everyone to the ground and strangling them and they're powerless to stop him, but it's essentially the same outcome of a Judoka fighting a Boxer in the early 1960s when Gene Lebell eventually gets back mount and puts Milo Savage in a rear naked choke. Also unlike the fail sport of brazilian jiu jitsu, the chad sport of judo has people writing academic papers on techniques at Korean (and I guess Japanese) universities. Defenestrategy posted:After reflecting on rolling yesterday everyone who does gi needs judo in their life its just too much of a disadvantage in grappling. My coach is bigger, stronger, more technically sound, but I was basically able to keep the game even because Ive been doing judo consistently for a year at this point so everytime I got into a scramble and was able to make it to my feet Id be able to basically negotiate that to a top position of some kind. Its not that hes never had to have a stand up game its just he never had the formal education for it and hes mega rusty having rarely to do standup outside of rolling against me since hes basically retired from comp. for no-gi its the same but with wrestling. Green Toad fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 16:02
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BJJ is a variant of judo that comes from changing rules. What distinguishes BJJ from judo and almost every other grappling art is that takedowns and pins will not win you the match outright. Only a submission does so. This leads naturally to a slower, less intense style. A judoka (or wrestler, or whatever) *could* have dominated the early UFCs just like Royce did. They didn't. Partly this is because Royce's brother set up the competition as a way to advertise Gracie jiu-jitsu. But it's also true that BJJ does pretty well when there are very few rules.
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Apr 30, 2024 17:12
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Count Roland posted:But it's also true that BJJ does pretty well when there are very few rules. I mean.... *hand waves at Sakuraba.* Edit: What I'm getting at is early UFC is basically a bunch of weirdos who know nothing about fighting outside of their limited rules set and Ken Shamrock, who is a freak. The minute someone confident in true MMA shows up the Gracie's start losing in ridiculous fashion to stuff like, getting kicked repeatedly because they won't stand up. Edit2: not to disparage bjj, both judo and bjj are incomplete forms of gi wrestling that do well in their respective areas but man you can get a power level bump by just doing both. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 17:35
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judo and bjj have weird tactical strengths comparatively. Osaekomi is the extreme odd one as it gets applied, but the theory is that it demonstrates positional mastery, but any of us who have gotten past the clueless newbie phase of BJJ knows, 20 seconds is basically the blink of an eye and we've all had a round where we've seen one player get held down for a long time and then get out and submit their opponent. Does that make osaekomi dumb and silly? Well... we've also all seen MMA or street fight footage where the BJJ guy tries to play bottom in that sport BJJ style and gets flatlined by someone stomping on his head, whether the opponent or a third party. I've started to think of osaekomi as a no-brain-damage abstraction of that situation: control them and be on top and be in a position where you can get up if you see someone getting ready to do a Shibata impression. I think that in a self-defense situation I would end up relying on my judo (particularly grip fighting and balance) and boxing (particularly defensive footwork, shoulder roll, and my jab) more than my BJJ, but it is really nice knowing I have enough BJJ to be able to literally just grab most people and break something as a backup if I get cornered. Maybe judo's tactical strengths that the rulesets encourage (and abstract) are better fighting tactics when dealing with unknown situations and untrained opponents, and BJJ tends to be stronger against trained opponents and in mutual combat.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:02
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Osaekomi when applied in the basic context like kesa or that weird north south position when you habe double lapel grips is money in bjj, I get to freely cook my opponent without burning energy is just so good.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:31
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I thought it was pretty well established that Gracies tried to keep people with strong grappling backgrounds out of early UFCs. True or not, you really didn't see a real influx of people with strong wrestling backgrounds until after Royce stopped competing. Ken Shamrock maybe an exception but most of his wrestling was kinda pro/shoot style and he probably just made a big mistake by trying to fall back for a leglock right away instead of staying on top. To me the real benefit of grappling as a method of self-defense, especially one-on-one, is that it allows a fine gradient of response. You can generally take someone down and control them without doing any damage. You can ramp up pressure or pain compliance as needed all the way to breaking things or choking to unconsciousness. Obviously, things can go wrong but you're much more in control than in a striking situation where if you connect solid they are dropping to the ground totally uncontrolled or even getting on top and raining strikes down is going to cause a lot more lasting damage to subdue someone than just being able to pin them in place and let them cook.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:47
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Defenestrategy posted:I mean.... *hand waves at Sakuraba.* Sure, pure BJJ was dominant for about 5 minutes. People rapidly incorporated basic grappling knowledge, invented gnp, and were off to the races.
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Apr 30, 2024 19:22
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This is the real element that needs to be emphasized, that there were plenty of people that could have done as well as Royce in UFC 1 and quite a few that could have done better, but they were explicitly prevented from participating. Erik Paulson was an accomplished multi disciplinarian in martial arts at the time and either wasn't allowed or was asked not to participate by the Gracie family, who he'd previously trained with. The irony of the UFC is that the Gracies created it to demonstrate the superioty of BJJ over all other martial arts and they ended up just as incomplete and surpassed as the kempo karate guys that spent the 70's and 80's clogging up the cover of Black Belt magazine and who then got fed into the wood chipper that was the early UFC. Edit: I will say that, between BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling, BJJ is particularly good if you can be absolutely certain your opponent is unarmed, that no one will stand you back up, and that your opponent's friends won't soccer kick your head while you progress your top position for five minutes, which is true both when a crowd gathers to watch a ritualized one on one fight on the soft sands of Rio de Janeiro or in the UFC. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 19:59
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Jack B Nimble posted:This is the real element that needs to be emphasized, that there were plenty of people that could have done as well as Royce in UFC 1 and quite a few that could have done better, but they were explicitly prevented from participating. Erik Paulson was an accomplished multi disciplinarian in martial arts at the time and either wasn't allowed or was asked not to participate by the Gracie family, who he'd previously trained with. Huh...maybe I should ask Erik if I feel like seeing if he actually pays attention to facebook these days the story behind that.
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Apr 30, 2024 20:11
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BJJ doesnt work on da streets
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Apr 30, 2024 20:19
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Defenestrategy posted:Huh...maybe I should ask Erik if I feel like seeing if he actually pays attention to facebook these days the story behind that. I'm just repeating hearsay, and I wouldn't mind finding out I'm wrong, but I heard he wanted to participate but wasn't allowed to. I have less specific recollections of that happening to other fighters at the time that were known to be well rounded innovators and that Gracies cherry picked a pile of hapless strikers with the mild exception of Ken Shamrock.
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Apr 30, 2024 20:20
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Jack B Nimble posted:I'm just repeating hearsay, and I wouldn't mind finding out I'm wrong, but I heard he wanted to participate but wasn't allowed to. I have less specific recollections of that happening to other fighters at the time that were known to be well rounded innovators and that Gracies cherry picked a pile of hapless strikers with the mild exception of Ken Shamrock. My assumption on the first few UFC's was it was dudes with no other options trying to get something going, like if you where really good at Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Kickboxing, you had poo poo you could be doing for money or exposure that was better for you than underground brawling. So it really didn't cross my mind that the gracies just didn't ask people of high quality rather than high quality fighters just going, "Uh...no lol."
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Apr 30, 2024 20:24
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Defenestrategy posted:My assumption on the first few UFC's was it was dudes with no other options trying to get something going, like if you where really good at Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Kickboxing, you had poo poo you could be doing for money or exposure that was better for you than underground brawling. So it really didn't cross my mind that the gracies just didn't ask people of high quality rather than high quality fighters just going, "Uh...no lol." I think that's true in terms of who would accept, but I also think the Gracies literally picked their opponents, I don't think it was an open tournament anyone could enter. I might be wrong about that.
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Apr 30, 2024 20:26
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BJJ is cool and good and it makes up a huge part of MMA. Like I saw some graph and it was about the base style of the most successful fighters and wrestling was number 1, BJJ was number 2. For me, as like a 14 year old kid when I rented the tape of UFC 1 from blockbuster, the lesson was not so much that Royce was some killer or that BJJ itself was the ultimate martial art. The lesson was that grappling overall is necessary. At the time I was in Karate* classes. We did point sparring and all that. And we also did these "combinations" which were like mini katas. A commination might be like "high block, then rake the eyes, then kick the groin, then sweep their leg, then stomp on their face." And it dawned on me that someone who was good at grabbing me could just shut that poo poo down immediately. I wish I could say it inspired me to enroll in BJJ or wrestling or whatever. The day I got my black belt was the last day I showed up to karate classes. Even though the particular style of karate I was doing was pretty bullshido all things considered, I still think that was a mistake because it led to several years of inactivity afterwards. If I'd stayed I'd at least have been more fit throughout my teenage years, but I have to admit UFC I broke the spell for me about the effectiveness of the type of Karate I was doing.** I hope to never be in a self-defense situation. If I was 1 on 1 with an unarmed person maybe my BJJ would help, maybe not. I have no interest in testing it. It's very cool to me that the art I do has legitimate applications but for me it's just the sport I can do without getting bored. Also my astigmatism fucks up my depth perception which makes like, basketball and poo poo like that difficult. *Fred Villari's Shaolin Kempo Karate, simply the best style that mixes Chinese and Japanese words and is taught by Italian guys. **One time I avoided being tagged in a game of flashlight tag by cocking my leg for a side kick when the person approached me to tag and they said "are you just hiding behind your karate lessons?" but then they left and tagged someone else. That was poor sportsmanship of me from a flashlight tag perspective but funny to think about now.
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Apr 30, 2024 20:34
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I think your point of “you can’t ignore grappling” is a good lesson learned, that’s for sure. Maybe we could expand it to needing some repertoire at all distances—kicking, punching, clinch, and of course on the ground.
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Apr 30, 2024 20:55
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Hellblazer187 posted:...*Fred Villari... Lol, hell yeah. For those not in the know...
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Apr 30, 2024 21:01
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Comparative grappling ruleset analysis seems like it would be a fun pursuit in anthropology. It seems anything but your feet touching the gound counting as a fall and ending the action is super common. And then touching the back/both shoulders is pretty common. With presumably both informed by more serious combat considerations. This is an example of a throw scoring scenario that I called out to my sanshou students as an obviously sport-specific call: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6QaWwxO99P Ref's signal of pointing at black and then putting other arm over the first arm means red fell but landed in control / on top of the throwee for half points. I personally would rule that a no score, given how little red was holding on and how black was almost gifted side control after rolling through. I feel like in the US combat sports scene, I would get protested for scoring for red and not giving credence to 1) how little control red actually had and 2) how much better black's position was with even very little followthrough action on the ground.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:27
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kimbo305 posted:I feel like in the US combat sports scene, I would get protested for scoring for red and not giving credence to 1) how little control red actually had and 2) how much better black's position was with even very little followthrough action on the ground. OTOH black got spiked on his head...
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Apr 30, 2024 21:30
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Jack B Nimble posted:The irony of the UFC is that the Gracies created it to demonstrate the superioty of BJJ over all other martial arts and they ended up just as incomplete and surpassed as the kempo karate guys that spent the 70's and 80's clogging up the cover of Black Belt magazine and who then got fed into the wood chipper that was the early UFC. I don't think it's ironic. If the Gracies set out to create a tournament that they would dominate forever, then yeah they failed; but that wasn't the goal. As an advertisement for GJJ it couldn't have been better. BJJ is one of the key pillars of MMA, unlike kempo or whatever. Maybe the ironic part of it is that they were so successful that the Gracies lost control over the brand: it became BJJ and people eventually stopped caring about the Gracies. I should ask my students who started the art and see what they say.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:50
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Jack B Nimble posted:a ritualized one on one fight on the soft sands of Rio de Janeiro or in the UFC. The secret Gracie technique of hitting people in the head with a surf board. If do right, no can defend. Adding to the early MMA chat. They also sent Royce, the least athletically impressive brother. Would have made a different impression on US audiences if it had been Rickson or Renzo in there. Or even further off the path. What if Rolles had lived longer and continued cross training wrestling. Would that have changed anything about how BJJ developed?
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May 1, 2024 00:29
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Defenestrategy posted:OTOH black got spiked on his head... In sanshou, damage isn't scored but it still "carries." As long as black didn't land head first (even in slo mo, it was level with the shoulders), red could have gotten a TKO or benefitted from black just getting rocked and having to fight through it. So there's certainly still [street fight aligned] incentive to throw hard even in the face of a no score.
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May 1, 2024 00:35
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Xguard86 posted:Or even further off the path. What if Rolles had lived longer and continued cross training wrestling. Would that have changed anything about how BJJ developed? It might have gotten to how it looks now a bit faster at least
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May 1, 2024 00:36
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potentially moving from Miami to FTL, any bjj/mma recommendations? Preferably no-gi but i'll train gi if i have to. living around las olas or DT FTL. I see a renzos and a former ATT gym thats rebranded.....anyone got any good jujtsu gym recs?
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May 1, 2024 21:30
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I live in the area but out west. Renzo school is good. Highly recommend. You've got vagner's place as well in Hollywood Vagner Rocha Martial Arts (954) 432-8788 https://g.co/kgs/XCsGXAj I know a lot of people don't like him but he seems to be well regarded by his student. Buddy started a gym in Dania Beach if you want something smaller. https://maps.app.goo.gl/yjX1Yai9wn63Hbob9
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May 1, 2024 21:58
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Jack B Nimble posted:Judo had decades of precedence in showing these techniques to Americans, it just never broke into the public consciousness the way the UFC did. "Opening the closed guard" asserts that there's no technique used in Brazilian Jiujitsu that isn't found in Judo until the IBJJF exponentially increases tournament participation in the the early aughts. The public at large, even the majority of the martial artists in the USA, may have considered UFC 1 a revolution, but fundamentally there's nothing there that couldn't have been done by a Judoka with a preference for the ground game. Joe Rogan has an anecdote where he (with essentially only a kick boxing background at this point) gets a hold of a VHS tape of the event and has his view of fighting challenged by the fights; it seems like Royce is just dragging everyone to the ground and strangling them and they're powerless to stop him, but it's essentially the same outcome of a Judoka fighting a Boxer in the early 1960s when Gene Lebell eventually gets back mount and puts Milo Savage in a rear naked choke. I love Drysdale and asked him at Worlds a few years back what happened to the documentary for that book and all he told me was "Its still being worked on". Well here we are a few years later and the filming is done(?), but it hasnt been released. The book itself is great but I dont get a consistent flow of how a documentary could be made from it.
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May 2, 2024 16:08
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:I love Drysdale and asked him at Worlds a few years back what happened to the documentary for that book and all he told me was "Its still being worked on". Well here we are a few years later and the filming is done(?), but it hasnt been released. The book itself is great but I dont get a consistent flow of how a documentary could be made from it. I think last year he made another go of getting the documentary done. Given that nothing has been said since then I'd assume that didn't go great but I would love to see it get finished.
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May 2, 2024 17:28
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duckdealer posted:I think last year he made another go of getting the documentary done. Given that nothing has been said since then I'd assume that didn't go great but I would love to see it get finished. My coach won't read the book because she heard a documentary is coming 
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May 2, 2024 18:09
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Jack B Nimble posted:My coach won't read the book because she heard a documentary is coming The great thing about the book is you can pick it up and read a few pages on one particular person you're interested in and be done pretty quickly.
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May 2, 2024 20:27
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:The great thing about the book is you can pick it up and read a few pages on one particular person you're interested in and be done pretty quickly. I own only two grappling materials, Riberos jiujitsu university and Kanos Judo precisely for that reason. I can pick it up when Im feeling bored look at a technique and toss the book on the shelf when Im done. Grappling technique vids and tutorials havent really interested me in a very long time.
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May 2, 2024 20:48
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:The great thing about the book is you can pick it up and read a few pages on one particular person you're interested in and be done pretty quickly. Largely for this reason I picked up a judo manual with Putin as an author. 12 years ago it was amusing. Today if anyone saw it (that didn't know me well) I'd need to explain my political views as a preface. The book is actually pretty good-- I'm sure his co-authors did the real work.
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May 2, 2024 20:54
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Haha our school library had Putin's judo book. I think I picked up an osoto tip there.
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May 2, 2024 21:07
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Putin's judo book is out of print and goes for a decent price online if you want to sell.
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May 2, 2024 21:41
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I have Putin's book too. I've never really read it.
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May 2, 2024 23:38
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I leafed through it when I bought it, but I never did train any judo so its mostly just sat on my shelf. It did have these neat diagrams showing entries and follow-ups. Very simple, I'd like to see this done in other places, though of course almost all instructionals are in video form these days.  
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May 3, 2024 00:38
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:I love Drysdale and asked him at Worlds a few years back what happened to the documentary for that book and all he told me was "Its still being worked on". Well here we are a few years later and the filming is done(?), but it hasnt been released. The book itself is great but I dont get a consistent flow of how a documentary could be made from it. One of the people he went to in Russia that wound up funding it is apparently/allegedly sanctioned by the US so...
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May 3, 2024 06:26
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Is this suggesting a harai goshi to hiza guruma combo on the lower right? How the hell would that work?
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May 3, 2024 13:48
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We recently learned sasae off of the opponent basing back to stop a forward throw. i can't recall which one but the idea was just twist into the forward throw, then twist back out and touch the shin. Funnily enough, it was taught by one of the black belts that joined a gym recently, an older dude with an entire Judo history prior to this gym, and when the gym owner tried it herself she ended up using sasae on the other leg as a continuation of her original turn in instead of trying to reverse direction. Anyway, that's at least some argument for sasae off of a failed forward throw, not sure if it's what's being advocated there im Hiza Garuma. Yesterday I taught the BJJ kids "Sag Koshi Gaurma", a throw I see dominate the kids matches in Judo; you just grab up Koshi Garuma grips, turn, and drops down. There's more nuance to really use it well against a competent opponent but it's intuitive and teaches how important it is to hold them tight and have them come with you as you move. Anyway, I tried it in the adult class against a very scrappy teenager that fights like hell out of everything and was frustrated that it wasn't working, he was always always just managing to keep his posture and we'd get locked into the position, on the verge of going over. I was upset with myself that I couldn't do the move I'd just said was simple and intuitive, but the instant I mentally gave up and switched to osoto he fell right over; I'd been so focused on my throw not working that I hadn't even considered how well he was set up for a follow up.
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May 3, 2024 14:02
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I'm a BJJ white belt, in my 40s, and I've had very little opportunity to train this year due to being in Iraq. I'm getting ready to move to a country in Africa with no BJJ presence that I can find. So I'm planning to switch over to Judo while I'm there, which would be new to me. I think the best option for my work schedule would be to find a local Judo black belt and pay them for individual lessons. A buddy who was there a few years back did that and it worked well for him. But I feel like there's a lot of value from being part of a gym where you get to train with people of different body types, skill levels, and who prefer different types of games... Am I overthinking this? Will I be fine basically doing one on one training for 2-3 years or should I really try to find a group class to join? Anyone have recommendations for mats to buy for a home gym? It looks like the Fuji/Zebra/Dollamur 1.25" roll out mats are all basically the same. A buddy who is a judo black belt said they would probably be fine for light to moderate throws if placed over a puzzle mat or something similar as an underlayer. I don't have a housing assignment yet but I'm thinking I'll probably have enough room for 10 feet square, at least, if that's enough...I've already gotten my wife to buy in with the promise that she can use it for yoga and calisthenics too.
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May 3, 2024 16:48
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Green Toad posted:One of the people he went to in Russia that wound up funding it is apparently/allegedly sanctioned by the US so... Oh drat didnt know that
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May 3, 2024 16:51
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Tyro posted:I'm a BJJ white belt, in my 40s, and I've had very little opportunity to train this year due to being in Iraq. absolutely you should find a group class, because then you can actually randori and have drill partners. then do private lessons to supplement that if you want
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May 3, 2024 17:06
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