Grappling: Grab their foot in a threatening manner, it doesn't cost you anything

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Grappling: Grab their foot in a threatening manner, it doesn't cost you anything

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Anyone else think that Roger Gracie deserves a post of his own for his place in the BJJ world right now?

Btw, the "orange shorts" guy in the Marcelo Garcia HL was UFC lightweight/welterweight Diego Sanchez.

Roger Gracie teaching the cross choke from mount, make sure the closed captioning (English subtitles in this case) option is enabled; the part before is a short HL of him tapping dudes with it and the standard "don't try this at home" blurb

Roger vs. Jacare highlights from ADCC (no-gi) 2005, featuring a hanging (not exactly flying) guillotine attempt, a back suplex and one of the more epic piggyback RNCs ever just for Renzo Gracie flipping out off-camera

My favorite Sherdog quote on how to tap Roger: "Ask him if this rag smells like chloroform, then apply puppet strings and a video camera (Warning: Do not actually attempt to place submission hold onto Roger's unconscious body, it will only escape and reverse you)"

# ¿ Feb 16, 2011 00:14

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 14:33

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Pwny_Xpress posted:

I hear names like Marcello Garcia, Jacare and Roger Gracie thrown around a lot as elite grapplers but i dont know what their accomplishments are, what kinds of strengths or weaknesses they have, etc.

To elaborate on Roger, I believe I mentioned his earlier reign of 2009 WTF, but if not... basically in 2005's ADCC (Abu Dhabi Combat Club) no-gi competition he won both his weight class and the "absolute" openweight division with submissions, submitting everybody from Werdum to Aoki to Jacare*. Roger's legend however skyrocketed when he repeated this in 2009 at the World Jiu-Jitsu Championship (the "Mundials" competition), this time in the gi, and in every match he submitted his opponent with a mounted choke. From a pre-Trevor Prangley interview on Sherdog (this past January):

quote:

In racking up a record number of jiu-jitsu titles, Gracie was particularly brilliant in his mount attack, lining up what appeared to be basic, fundamental chokes against top competition. Throughout his training life, Gracie was a natural on top, a position he noticed brilliant guard players had trouble defending. He worked obsessively on getting to mount, one of the hardest positions to achieve in sport jiu-jitsu. He finished his opponents in the 2007, 2008 and 2009 world finals with chokes from the mount.

�That, in my opinion, is what the fighters lacked,� he says of mount defense. �There�s a huge imbalance there. You�d see great jiu-jitsu fighters with great guards, very hard to sweep, but when you put them in [a position] to defend the mount, they�re not as strong. A lot of people you see, they get really good and suddenly they stop, you don�t see them improving more. And that never happened to me. I�ve never had to reach my peak.�

While a strong top game came naturally to Gracie, it was his ability to read opponents and walk through an opening that put him in a different category altogether. Gracie admits he finds it much harder to finish from the mount in MMA, so he is shifting, trying to find different patterns and consistent holes among MMA fighters.

There are people who don't put him at the P4P top because of a perception of lesser technique at heavyweight, but apparently he's got surprising strength (read: he once ripped open an opponent's brand-new gi sleeve) and his reach is apparently more effective (than just "decent") in helping his grappling performance. Technique-wise, unlike Marcelo's famous use of X-guard, by all accounts Roger just sticks to "the basics."

* Notable because in their last match, at the 2004 Mundials absolute final, Jacare was actually ahead on points when he got armbarred, and there apparently wasn't a "technical stoppage" or "TKO injury" rule in place, so he didn't tap -- Roger broke his arm, but Jacare was able to run out the clock for the points win.
EDIT: Instead of just gutting it out though, Jacare "escaped" and ended up out of bounds, but when the bout was continued-or-restarted, he then kept stalling/playing keep away for several minutes to the point that Roger can be seen pointing it out to the ref, to no avail, on the second video OrangeCrush linked.

Chortles fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Feb 20, 2011

# ¿ Feb 20, 2011 00:12

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Bohemian Nights posted:

And to reiterate what everyone who warns me against relying on flexibility says; It's the easiest way to get hurt.

Supposedly GSP's claimed that BJ Penn's flexibility actually weakened his "thoracic cage," I guess something about his core, so GSP chose to just get in there and dig in/grind (in the clinch) during their second fight to help wear Penn out faster.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2011 22:19

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

It should also be added that BJJ itself -- as a discipline separate from Kodokan judo -- began with Helio Gracie adapting the techniques of judo ("Kano Jiu-Jitsu") as taught by Mitsuyo Maeda to his brother Carlos, to fit his "scrawnier" self.

The "strength disparity" may or may not explain why some people have Roger Gracie lower on their p4p BJJ players' list than Marcelo Garcia (because of Gracie's physical advantages even for his weight class), as well as why Jacare once back suplexed Roger Gracie (ADCC 2005 absolute final).

# ¿ Mar 1, 2011 06:15

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

1st AD posted:

Can somebody knowledgeable in BJJ give me the rundown on Xande Ribeiro? I have an opportunity to do some photo/video shoots with him very soon, but my knowledge of high level BJJ is very sparse.

In addition to dokomoy's link, he is one of the only two men (the other being Jacare) to hold more than one win over Roger Gracie in gi competition at black belt (and Jon Olav Einemo being the only one with a recorded no-gi win over Roger), albeit in every case it was on points.

Here's Roger vs. Xande at ADCC 2005 (no-gi). Technique note: There's a triangle escape by Roger at 2:38 that's similar to Chael Sonnen's escape attempt against Anderson Silva's triangle in the UFC 117 main event, but Roger didn't leave his arm (or rather his elbow) in for an armbar like Sonnen did. The "Gracie Breakdown" for that UFC bout discussed this escape in more detail.

Here's Xande taking out Gabriel "head kicked Cro Cop" Gonzaga in less than a minute.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2011 08:14

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

For grappling hilarity, watch Roger Gracie vs. Alex Reid (UK) no-gi.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2011 02:38

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

1. Shoot for a double.
2. Keep your head up (PROTECT YA NECK).
3. ???
4. Profit!

For reference see Cody McKenzie vs Marc Stevens, TUF12 episode 6.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2011 05:49

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Bundt Cake posted:

both times ive seen xande beat roger he did it in a very lame manner involving abusing the points for takedowns. I remember it well because I read an interview with Drysdale where he said basically the only way anyones going to beat roger is by doing that,

Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza may have the most triumphal example of this @ Mundials 2004 absolute final (with the help of a ref who just wouldn't DQ him; it was gi competition by the way), which just made the rematch @ ADCC 2005 absolute finals (no-gi) all the more epic.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2011 06:57

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

generatrix posted:

As others have said, the main trick is to keep your head up which wrecks the angles needed for a guillotine. Alternatively, if you're like me and terrible at wrestling but still insist on shooting, let them get the guillotine, pass to side control when you land, and sub them with a Von Flue choke.

Warning: doesn't work against a McKenzietine, in that passing to side control doesn't alleviate the blood choke.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2011 19:03

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Incidentally, Roger claimed that the last loss in 2008 was influenced by his MMA training that year (I assume for the Yuki Kondo fight), so he skipped MMA in 2009, went on his epic 2009 Mundials run, then claims to have just trained gi (probably not entirely true) for Randleman since he had the 2010 Mundials coming up, and this year was consciously focused on the 2011 ADCC/Mundials over the Prangley fight.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2011 20:06

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Xguard86 posted:

counterpoint: "brazilian jiu-jitsu" is more useful for mma than "weightlifting" as evidenced by Lesnar/Mir II. Where Frank Mir spent his time gaining 30 pounds, and Brock spent it learning how to pin Mr in half-guard and beat him into a coma.

Pretty much; there's at least one video showing how to defeat that half-guard that Mir did in a BJJ context, although Lesnar's reach probably helped him to secure the ending position (aka the "stockade").

# ¿ Mar 16, 2011 00:11

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Re: cutting weight -- I'm reminded of the infamous Michael Kirkham incident where a MMA fighter died in his pro debut... and quite a few people wondering what the commission was doing allowing him to compete at only 155 despite being 6-foot-9.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2011 00:41

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Just remember about Bruno Bastos, "Hodjah dun keeeeeeeeled heeeem."

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 07:08

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Bohemian Nights posted:

Probably wouldn't be so cool if you were some kind of secret blackbelt who is there to humiliate people, but as a beginner, who cares!

Now you know how Roger feels. :haw:

though at what happened with Popovitch recently -- his mom passing away and his dad not being health-insured.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 23:33

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Thoguh posted:

US Women's Freestyle Team

48KG: Clarissa Chun

It took me a bit to realize that, oh-hey, there's a Chinese-American woman on the 48kg freestyle team. And that's... that's really cool, in a Jeremy Lin way. :unsmith:

# ¿ Jul 6, 2012 18:21

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Jigoro Kano might roll in his grave if he heard that he wasn't being counted in the Gracie lineage :haw:

(as Mitsuyo Maeda's instructor)

# ¿ Jul 18, 2012 21:10

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Xguard86 posted:

A lot of it was also kind of a PR job. Jiu-jitsu was dying, it was seen as thuggish and outdated, a relic of feudal Japan. Kano cleaned it up by removing all the dirty bits and presented Judo as a way to stay fit and learn life lessons in a safe respectable environment.

Oddly enough, this reminds me of "the reformation of MMA to emerge from the bad old days of NHB," albeit there was the social context of modernization in the Meiji period (as well as the identity crisis over what to adopt and what to hold onto).

# ¿ Jul 23, 2012 04:41

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Interestingly, Brian Watson's Kano biography apparently has randori preceding Kano and judo but having been a training method of Kano's first instructor as well.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2012 06:08

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Thoguh posted:

You'll also have people try to trick you into thinking they have tapped. That's why in Judo when you think someone might have tapped you let up on the pressure a bit but never let go until the ref calls Soremade.

So the "Brazilian tap" predates MMA?

# ¿ Jul 31, 2012 00:40

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Thoguh posted:

downplays the importance of conditioning, which US wrestlers excel at.

You sure this one isn't intentional?

# ¿ Aug 2, 2012 08:11

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

It's written in this really dorky army-jargon way that's kind of annoying, but the content is great.

Considering his and Jon Fitch's collaboration with MACP, I'm not surprised... it did give us Dave "Han Solo" Camarillo.

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

He basically encourages you to choose one submission, get amazing at it from as many places as you can, and chase it from position to position.

Sounds quite akin to Bruce Lee's "one kick ten thousand practices" theory.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2012 04:13

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 14:33

Chortles: Dec 29, 2008

Complete with endorsement by the man himself.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2012 03:23

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Grappling: Grab their foot in a threatening manner, it doesn't cost you anything