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There are zero Bradley classes in my rural area - in fact, when I met with the public health nurse who has been teaching prenatal classes and providing pre- and post-natal support for two decades, she had never heard of Bradley. It's not really a thing around here, and the only available classes are the hospital ones, which don't apply as I'm well-researched anyway, and planning a home birth. That said, my husband and I are still using the Bradley Method, just by going through the book and doing our own practices based on what they detail in the book. I haven't read the Birthing Partner, but it's in my midwives' library and I probably will before I deliver. Anyway, if you can finagle a book and a fraction of another book from your husband, what's worked for us has been for me to read the Bradley book and just hand it over to Mr. starshine to catch up on the short "for the coach" sections, read him anything I think is really important to learn, and go through the practice exercises together. So maybe, you could get him to read the other book on his own and use my strategy for Bradley! There's a lot of good information in there, but it's mostly for my benefit and I've had an easy enough time summarizing for him. Good luck! Also interested in the birth story question miss.kitty.jane raised - have to shamelessly admit that reading about the light at the end of the tunnel is my favorite part of this thread. Question for those who have done the hour-long glucose test: did you have to fast or prepare for it in any way? I had an unrelated physical and labs to go through yesterday (for immigration to Canada) and the doctor I saw called and let me know I had a moderate glucose level in my urine sample. I called my midwife and she agreed we should do the blood test when I'm there on Tuesday, but I forgot to ask about doing anything specific beforehand. Thanks in advance!
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Feb 20, 2011 09:26
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Aagar posted:In retrospect we should have probably accepted - couldn't have hurt. My midwife asked me if I wanted a home visit from a public health nurse during my pregnancy, I said sure, she sent over a form and the nurse called to set up a day. She was actually really cool and helpful - I moved to this area at 6 weeks pregnant, don't really know anyone outside of my inlaws, and wanted to know about some community resources for families with young kids. She printed out a ton of stuff and brought it for me, and we sat in my living room for probably 1.5 hours talking about our birth plans, attachment parenting, breastfeeding, etc. Of course she had some of the usual SIDS-awareness and benefits of breastfeeding pamphlets but she really let me ask my questions and direct the conversation. YMMV, of course, but the free visit from the nurse was really kind of fun and totally worth the time for us. So, if any Canadians are on the fence about it, my experience was really good. We'll have 6 weeks of postpartum support from the midwife and probably have an option for another PH nurse visit - not sure if we'll be taking advantage of that or not, I guess it depends on whether we are feeling good on our own or could use another person to bounce ideas off of. Edit: Duh, I had a question. Has anyone dealt with crazy babby hiccups during pregnancy? I'm 32 weeks today and baby has gotten the hiccups at least once a day for the past 4 days. I felt them from time to time previously, but it's a little weird to get used to. Probably nothing to be concerned about, right? starshine fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 05:49
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Pluto posted:Ahh I gotcha. I wouldn't want a breech baby delivered by someone who doesn't know how to do it, I ASSumed they taught that in medical school but it seems like it's being phased out. I actually asked my midwife about their protocol for a breech birth at my last appointment, and she said they are supposed to call an ambulance and transfer you to the hospital for it (planning a home birth). You can still try for a vaginal birth, but she said she has only delivered 1 or 2 breech babies in 10 years of practice. They do refresh their "emergency training" every 2 years, where they talk about breech techniques and such, but unfortunately most birthing attendants don't have a ton of experience delivering breech babies.
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Feb 27, 2011 05:18
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JustinMorgan posted:Hey goons! I'm not pregnant, my brother's wife is, and I have questions I feel weird/ rude asking her. 1. She has probably had some trauma to her belly or bleeding. I am RH- but my baby has been locked up in the womb for the past 32 weeks so I don't know if they're positive or not (50/50 because my husband has a positive blood type). I'm sure it's awkward to mention vaginal bleeding to you so that's why you're not getting the full story. If the doctors recommended those things, it's probably to avoid any potential blood mingling, and probably due to a solid reason. 2. Births don't have to be all trauma and screaming and out-of-control like movies. Ricki Lake made a pretty cool documentary called "The Business of Being Born" that might enlighten you if you're interested in that sort of thing. Women do have control over how they're going to handle labor... that's why they can go to classes, do research, and make a birth plan. She knows that at the time of labor, she's going to have to be flexible depending on the situation. Having an idea of how you want to give birth and how those around can assist you is another way of giving the power of labor and birth back to the mother, as it was from the dawn of time until pretty much the last century in America. 3. What Isis Q. Dylan said. Particularly if she's taking prenatal vitamins, she's probably not deficient in any vitamin she's getting from salad.
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Feb 27, 2011 17:18
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foxatee posted:Are we being needlessly frugal?   And it also comes with a changing pad that fits the opened top, of course. It's a sturdy solid wood piece of furniture, so there's no reason that our kid won't continue to use it as a bedroom dresser after the diapering days are over. I haven't had my baby quite yet (less than a month to go!) but I can vouch for the Boppy as an often-used item for my half-sister who was born in '99 - both for propping up during nursing, and tummy time/learning to sit up. We got a similar, off-brand nursing pillow (Jolly Jumper Baby Sitter) here in Canada for cheap. Not planning on getting a Bumbo chair personally, but that's not to say that people don't find it worthwhile!
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Mar 22, 2011 23:17
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Lrigwoc posted:Thanks for the suggestions, ya'll. I ended up getting a Dr. Sears book for now. Haven't decided on an actual pregnancy book. For the guy in the relationship especially, you can learn a lot from The Birth Partner. I had the book throughout late pregnancy but only started reading it at 37 weeks... and went into labor at 38 weeks, so I'm sure I missed out on a lot of good stuff in the second half of the book. My husband is not a book reader, though, so I just read it in bed while he was playing a video game and asked him periodically if he knew about X thing; if he said no he'd pause and I could read it to him or talk to him about it. We also read and practiced with Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way, but that was a pretty specific book tailored to the type of labor and birth we wanted.
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Apr 21, 2011 03:02
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MarshallX posted:The problem is that we are usually working on gardens, etc, not really just hanging around. Do you have a wrap or carrier? We tie Julia (4.5 wks) on my back in a rucksack carry when we are fiddling around outside - you still have plenty of freedom to move around, and if Greyson is anything like my baby, he'll probably feel so good in there that he falls right asleep 
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May 9, 2011 20:41
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LuckyDaemon posted:Get this babby out of me  Whether any of the things I happened to be doing brought the baby faster, I don't know, but they probably didn't hurt. If I may say so myself, I was doing a drat good job keeping my stress levels low and not really doing any worrying about when she would come. My midwife said months ago that she wouldn't be surprised if I went early because I was so relaxed. So, if you can manage it, chillin' may get you there!
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May 18, 2011 00:36
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LoG posted:Hey guys, I'm looking for a little bit of advice/opinions. KG is 13 weeks old today and he will not sleep on his back, so my wife is terrified of SIDS. It doesn't matter how deep of a sleep he is in, the second his back hits the crib he is awake. After that we rock him back to sleep, lay him on his tummy and he sleeps through the night. We use all the other precautions for SIDS like nothing in the crib, keeping the room cool and his mattress is firm and neither of us smoke, he is also healthy and doesn't have any acid reflux problems. If you have any questions that might be relevant ask and I'd be happy to answer. My daughter is almost 8 weeks old and also refuses to sleep on her back. We cosleep and nurse to sleep so I just let her sleep on her side in the crook of my arm after she dozes off. If she's really tired and fussy sometimes I'll put her to sleep on her tummy, keep an eye on her for 15 minutes or so, then flip her to her side once she's floppy. You have to remember when moving a sleeping baby that it takes 10-20 minutes for them to enter deep sleep - their face stops moving, and their arms and legs are dead weight. If you rock him to sleep and immediately put him down in a way he doesn't like, he will almost always startle awake. If he can roll over, the general rule seems to be "put him to sleep on his back, and let him sleep however he ends up". It probably wouldn't hurt to talk to his doctor about your wife's fears at your next appointment, though!
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May 31, 2011 20:22
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Mnemosyne posted:Can I ask why you aren't supposed to pump until 2 weeks in? I would assume that this is because a) your milk supply is regulating in the first couple of weeks and it would probably be really easy to build up an oversupply by pumping, which can cause feeding/digestion problems in your baby; b) you want to be sure to have milk available for your baby at all times until they regain birth weight (which can be around 2 weeks). Maybe more reasons than that but those two popped into my mind! BTW, congrats Janelle! Seconding what dream said, pump in the morning, unless your baby seems really hungry then and sleeps for a long stretch in the afternoon. I pump once a day now but timing depends on how Julia's day is going! If I wake up full and she's sleepy with a full tummy, I'll pump both sides (usually the last one I nursed her on produces a little less, no biggie). I tried to pump one side while she nursed the other, and it was good for my letdown but the noise from the double electric pump freaked her out. If she is having a really tired afternoon and taking a long nap, I'll pump then. You'll get into a rhythm that works for you fairly quickly... I've only been pumping for less than a week but got 6oz today(at 9 weeks), 2 hours after nursing her. I've found kellymom and its related links to be a great resource so far. starshine fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 06:17
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IMO it also depends on the setup of your house and whether you're using cloth or disposables. We use the changing table for every change now, but it's in our laundry room, which makes cloth diapering really easy. It's only like 15 feet from our bedroom so it's not a big deal to take her in there at night, either. My SIL, on the other hand, uses disposables and changes her daughter on the couch constantly. Their nursery, with change table, is upstairs and not really worth the trip for them. I also have a convertible dresser/change table which will be her dresser in the nursery once we're done diapering, so it works great for us. Pics from before she was born:
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Jun 13, 2011 21:15
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sheri posted:I have a friend who is about 8 months pregnant with her first child. Her and her husband are very intent on doing things naturally, which I find great. My only concern is that they are planning a home birth. I know some (lots of?) people here have had home births, and I have nothing against them. My reason for concern here is that this is her first child and no one really knows what the delivery will be like being that she hasn't been through one before. I'm not going to try to talk her into or out of any decision, but is there any advice or anything I can offer them to make sure both mom and baby are healthy? The advice I'd give you would be to trust in your friend and her midwife. Your concern here should probably be more focused on educating yourself about home birth than on trying to do anything for your friend. I just had my first child at home a couple of months ago, and anything negative that my friends and family said to me was just irritating. People make a lot of assumptions about the relative safety of home vs. hospital births without doing any research. If you wanted to do something nice, you could pick her up a birthing ball - I'm average height and used a 65cm one during late pregnancy and early labor. You could also offer yourself to prepare a meal for your friends if you're into that... it would have been awesome to call a friend the day I went into labor and have a meal delivered for myself/my husband/my midwives after my baby was born.
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Jun 27, 2011 00:32
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Bodnoirbabe posted:I don't know. I've got a long way to go to figure it out though. Although I'm fairly confidant if it's a boy, he'll be named Maxwell.
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Jul 5, 2011 00:12
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I wouldn't worry too much about the number on the scale - the more important thing is the balance of your diet. If you're overweight you're more likely to develop gestational diabetes during pregnancy, so do your best to take it easy on the carbs. If you eat foods with a low glycemic index and gain weight, it's just going to happen! I had bad morning sickness so I started my pregnancy at 143, dropped down to 125 by week 12, and was 168 at my last appointment a couple days before Julia was born... so I technically only gained 25 pounds but I really gained 43 pounds in 26 weeks. It sounds bad when you put it that way, but the weight has really fallen off most everywhere since giving birth! It may not be the case for overweight women, but my midwives actually didn't care one bit about how much weight I was gaining. Weighing myself and recording the weight was a totally optional part of prenatal care! Don't stress too much 
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Jul 6, 2011 21:35
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I was super sick and medicated for the first 22 weeks. Between 22 and 23 weeks, though, my nausea and most of my food aversions cleared up. There's hope yet for you ladies at the halfway point who are still dealing with "morning"(and all-day) sickness. Canadian cloth diaperer chiming in. I got my prefolds, snappis, wipes and covers online through jamtots, and my Fuzzibunz pocket diapers from enfant style diapers. I stressed and researched a lot while pregnant to find those sites and highly recommend both. bynature.ca also comes well regarded from some other Canuck goons, but I found they have similar stock with slightly higher prices. Can't believe Julia graduated from this thread last week! Some pictures:   Birth day - One month   Two months - Three months
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Jul 13, 2011 05:22
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Bodnoirbabe posted:I have a question about those who are breastfeeding and are going to do child centered weening. What if the child doesn't want to ween? What if they turn three? Four? Five? and they still don't want to ween? I know it's not that common, but maybe that's because the mother eventually force weened, but what there are cases of people still breast feeding later in age. There's a documentary about it and everything. A quote from Dr. Sears' Attachment Parenting Book that has resonated with me, in regards to putting your baby on a schedule, is "watch your baby, not the clock". In terms of breastfeeding, replace clock with calendar, and you have my thoughts. That said, whatever works for your family is the best choice to make - just try not to pay much mind to the people who disagree with you. You'll know what's best for your child.
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Jul 14, 2011 04:20
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Bodnoirbabe posted:That makes sense about it being a relationship and stuff. I hope I didn't come off as being judgmental, I was just honestly curious. Thanks for the links, Starshine. I'll give them a read. No you sure didn't, I just wanted to share some stuff I've read. Hope it can help provide some info for you! I've heard plenty of actual judgment on extended BFing, from my own mother no less
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Jul 14, 2011 05:01
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Janelle posted:Now for questions. Those of you who use/d moby wraps, how long would you wear baby and was it hard to get him used to not being held when he outgrew it? I bought one today and it is a godsend. How hot do they get? I'm in Texas where we get very, very hot. Will I get super sweaty if I wear it outside? I haven't used a moby, but I have a cotton gauze wrap that's pretty breathable. I bought from this Etsy seller which aren't as patterned as the ones MoCookies linked, but are a good bit cheaper. The other benefit is that you can wear your kid all the way up to toddler age in a cotton gauze wrap because it doesn't stretch. I've worn Julia in it several times a week since she was 2 days old and it's in the same shape as when it was new.
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Jul 20, 2011 19:24
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quote:Massive wall of irrelevant, stupid, wishful, hopeful and sad poo poo, what the hell is wrong with you? Chicken McNobody posted:Anyhoo, for the last couple weeks I've been waking up in the middle of the night with pain deep in both buttocks, like in the hip joints. I already sleep with a body pillow between my knees to help with back pain...is there any way to alleviate this?  The only things that gave me relief were switching sides often, getting up for a stretch, and going swimming... but nothing really fixed the pain for me. It's easier after birthing because at least you can lie on your back for long periods. Hope you can figure something out that works!
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Jul 29, 2011 16:49
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Banana Cat, for me the third trimester was the best part. I had morning sickness requiring daily medication until 22 weeks so I was pretty miserable for at least the first half of the 2nd trimester. Things can be pretty creaky at the end, but feeling your baby's crazy movements with your hands and getting things together for the birth and newborn stage can make up for it. Hope you follow in my footsteps there and can enjoy the end of pregnancy! Re: telling people, I'd agree with FITD and say that if you want to be on the safe side, only tell the people you'd want to know about a miscarriage during your first trimester. I ended up spilling the beans to my family at 9-10 weeks and of course my mom told her friends who are my old neighbors who told my old roommate who told all my old coworkers Just make sure that if you want your news to stay hush for a while, you get explicit agreement from those you tell that they'll keep it to themselves.
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Aug 7, 2011 04:03
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Philosopher King posted:So where does everyone stand on the 3d/4d ultrasound? I've heard a few conflicting things in the past and I'm not sure what to believe. Is there a strong possibility of danger to the fetus? We got a 3d ultrasound - I'm a pretty hippie mom who had a home waterbirth, but I got to find out the sex, see her face, and get a keepsake all for a pretty fair price. My even-more-hippie midwife said they probably don't know ALL the risks, but getting one or two ultrasounds during pregnancy probably wasn't anything to worry about. I'm not really sure what people mean by creepy... I thought the pictures were really interesting - that's your baby's face!
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Aug 11, 2011 22:41
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Brennanite posted:Yeah, I never would have known either (besides my husband's description of "gushing waterfall") if the delivery nurse hadn't told me. I was curious because they didn't transfuse me, which seemed to really confuse and piss off the postpartum nurse. I'm really glad to hear you were able to bounce back fairly quickly. I only planned a two-week maternity leave and would like to feel at least able to walk around and sit w/o a donut by then. What kind of job do you work? I don't think I was able to cook myself a legitimate meal for almost two weeks, and I didn't even have any stitches or unusual blood loss. Can't imagine going back to work that soon!
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Sep 2, 2011 02:32
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My husband was over 10 lbs, I was 6.14, and Julia was pretty close to the middle at 8.10! Two weeks early though - if she'd come on her due date, probably would have been 9 and a half pounds. Thank you baby for arriving early Brennanite, I'm glad you have your mom to depend on when you go back. As you know, the early weeks of parenting can be rough due to hormones, blood pressure, and sleep deprivation! My SIL also lost a lot of blood after delivery (placenta was stuck/broken apart and she ended up having to get a D&C), had 2 transfusions, and still had to take a ton of iron several times a day for months. Best of luck getting through your semester without going nuts!
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Sep 2, 2011 18:54
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I am very pleased with our decision to keep the name (and also the gender) to ourselves. We got a ton of different style clothes with cute colorful stripes and animals at the baby shower, and no one has said a single negative thing about the name. Every gift that we've received since Julia was born has been pink or had "Daddy's girl" or "If you think I'm cute, you should see my mom" on it.  Dr. Octagon posted:It seems like before the baby is born, everyone feels just fine expressing their personal dislike for the name you chose, but I'd hope that once the baby's here, most people aren't rude enough to say "I really hate what you've named your child!"
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Sep 9, 2011 01:48
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Dr. Octagon posted:I regret not going with the local midwifery practice. I went to my OB for my first "confirm pregnancy" appointment which happened to be less than two weeks before moving from the USA to Canada. Up here, I realized my only reasonable choice for care was with a midwifery practice, and a home birth would save me a lot of money. Holy crap - in hindsight I'm so grateful for both of those things. Having experienced both OB care and midwife care, I'd recommend a midwife to anyone who can... my "short" appointments were 30-45 minutes and most were closer to an hour. The midwives answered all my questions without making me feel like I was stupid or wasting their time; they asked me about my nutrition, supplements, birth plans, fears about birth, local support, etc. Then all your [3+] appointments for the first two weeks postpartum are in your home, whether your baby was born there or in a hospital. I really hope this profession makes a re-entry into western healthcare in the coming decades, because women with low-risk pregnancies could be so much better taken care of. My midwife is 35 and has attended a full university course and over 700 births - that is an expert of their field.
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Sep 24, 2011 23:59
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Doom Catcher posted:I really want to try a class to involve my fiancé, as I know he is nervous he will be useless during the birth even though I know he won't. And I know Bradley or brio will really help him with that. I had a home birth and wanted to study Bradley without any courses nearby, so my husband and I got Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way and put aside time for "labor practice", kind of like a home class with just the two of us, one night a week or so for the second half of my pregnancy. The book has a lot of really specific details and practice exercises, so we just tried everything in the book's order. To be honest, we didn't end up using much of the actual Bradley method during labor and delivery, because I labored alone for the first couple of hours while he got the house set up for the birth and when the midwife got here I was 5-6cm dilated and ready to get in the tub. He was still a huge support, rubbing my back for the last 5 hours or so while I was in the tub, but we didn't do exactly the stuff we practiced. However, having done the preparation made us both feel more confident and prepared, which I believe helped a lot with the overall progression of the day, if that makes sense. The techniques in the book would probably be a lot more help to someone who wants to labor in bed, as opposed to a birthing pool.
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Sep 30, 2011 05:30
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Gumby Orgy posted:My CNM's nurse is calling me in some Zofran. She also made me feel like I was wasting her time by saying that all my symptoms are early pregnancy symptoms and "completely normal". I think you're probably hormonal and taking things too seriously and personally at this point. I had severe nausea/vomiting, lost 18 pounds in the first 12 weeks, and was on daily medication until 22 weeks. That's still "completely normal". Nurses and doctors see this kind of thing all the time, so I wouldn't get worked up over her treating it as normal. On the other hand, if you feel you aren't receiving the kind of care you want, I would suggest looking at alternative providers for your prenatal care. Hope this doesn't sound too bitchy, but my other suggestion is to step away from the internet and read a book or something - you've been posting in this thread multiple times a day and probably could use a break from analyzing all the stuff you're worried about. I was in your shoes a year ago and can tell you I benefited from some "me" time.
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Sep 30, 2011 17:39
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Sarsaparilla posted:Anybody else having trouble with maternity winter coats? I don't want to spend 100+ for something I'll wear for a month or two, tops. I was pregnant through Ontario winter, so I found a nice new Gap maternity coat on eBay for like $75 and wore it every day. I actually like the style of it better than my non-maternity coat! My daughter was born in April, and she's a big kid (18.5+ lbs at 6 mos) and I can still zip up my maternity coat around her when I'm wearing her in the wrap. So you might be able to squeeze two winters into the coat! I like mine so much that I'm planning to get it taken in by a seamstress when I can't use it for babywearing anymore. I ended up going with some cheap used maternity jeans and camis, some non-maternity yoga pants/long johns in a size up from my regular size, and a nice hoodie and coat - and it worked well for me. Whenever I was out of the house, all that really "showed" was the nice coat and not my frumpy layers of cheap clothes underneath. MoCookies, we live in rural Ontario and faced the same dilemma with baby clothes. I ended up finding some secondhand stuff on kijiji that was in great shape! It required some planning because I had to drive to the nearest city to meet up with the sellers, but I saved a ton of money and got to "shop" the ads online so I knew what I was getting - less stressful than shopping in brick-and-mortar stores, imo. As for babywearing, we got a pouch sling(not adjustable, meh), snugli(crotch dangler, not a good carrier), ring sling (fast to put on and off but puts baby's weight mostly on one shoulder), and woven wrap(bit of a learning curve but versatile and comfortable for me and my husband). My SIL isn't into a lot of the same parenting stuff I am and I never preached babywearing to her, but after seeing me with Julia in the wrap several times she asked me if I could help her find one. Now we wrap our girls up together all the time
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Oct 17, 2011 02:40
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Brennanite posted:I'd like to thank Fire at the Disco for recommending the Lil Peepers wraps on Etsy. I just finished watching the DVD guide and I'm totally psyched to try babywearing. My kid is going through "Sleep? I don't need no stinkin' sleep!" and "Hold me, hold meeeeeeee" phases simultaneously. I think babywearing might just save my sanity. Fire In The Disco posted:It wasn't me who recommended that particular wrap (I don't think, at least...), but I'm a huge advocate for babywearing, so that is awesome!  I love LPK. Great service and beautiful carriers! Glad you're going to try one... it has definitely saved my sanity on more than one occasion. Head over to the forums at thebabywearer.com for much more wrapping info than the DVD could provide.
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Oct 23, 2011 13:16
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Omg the tiny newborn fingers Congrats, what a gorgeous baby!
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Jan 16, 2012 04:40
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Sarsaparilla posted:Anyone have any secret burping techniques for newborns? I cannot seem to get her to burp after feeding. I finally give up, put her down, then 30 minutes later she's in a fit from gas. She may just not be ready to burp after a feeding - not all babies need it. If you're noticing gas pains later, they may be related to her digestion, not from swallowing air. I'd try some of the burping positions that page suggests, maybe 20 minutes after the end of the feeding once her little guts are working. My 9 month old still wakes up whining because she has to burp sometimes, so I just pick her up and hug her against me, let her rest her head on my shoulder, and bounce her around until she burps 
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Jan 23, 2012 05:23
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For Julia's first few weeks, she did what we called an angry poop dance, all red and flailing, for every BM. I started "Elimination Communication" (AKA holding your baby over a bowl, potty, sink, flat diaper, etc when you think/know she has to go) when she was 19 days old and we didn't have any more fussiness with poop after that. Might be that the position made it easier for her to go, or just that she grew out of it around that age. Here's a pic of the holding position we used at 4 weeks of age: Plenty of people think it's weird to use a potty with a small baby, but it has been a cool experience for all three of us... and I'm really happy that I'm cleaning my 12 month old's ungodly turds out of a potty and not a diaper these days. BTW, if you guys do get a feeling that something isn't right, I wouldn't hesitate to mention it to your midwife/doctor so they can make sure all is a-ok!
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Apr 17, 2012 06:05
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CravingSolace, have you tried swimming? It did a lot to ease my joint and nerve pain during the last trimester. I think you're right that the ER probably couldn't do anything additional for you - I'd probably call the OB/midwife. I had intense rib pain at one point and my midwife did some blood tests to make sure my liver function was OK because an enlarged liver could cause pain there, no idea if that's something your HP has mentioned to you. For the sciatica, my MIL swears by walking around backward. If things are desperate, give that a try? Sorry you're in so much pain, pregnancy does such lovely things to the body
starshine fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Sep 2, 2012 |
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Sep 2, 2012 03:33
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