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I have a question for those of you who have read these books before. Yesterday, I was lucky enough to find a used copy of "The Far Side of the World" and since I've read and liked "Master and Commander", I picked it up. However, I later learned that this is actually the 10th book in the series, something that wasn't indicated on the back of the cover. My question is this: Is it necessary that I read the previous books in the series in order to understand the plot of this one, or can I jump right into it?
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Mar 13, 2011 11:03
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It is not necessary to read the books between, especially since "The Far Side of the World" is rather self-contained, but of course it is very helpful, since the life of the protagonists developed a lot between the two books. Marriage, children, Stephen being a spy, the war of 1812 and Stephen's/Jack's involvement in it, various missions that get referred etc.
Decius fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Mar 13, 2011 |
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Mar 13, 2011 11:09
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Faude Carfilhiot posted:I have a question for those of you who have read these books before. Yesterday, I was lucky enough to find a used copy of "The Far Side of the World" and since I've read and liked "Master and Commander", I picked it up. However, I later learned that this is actually the 10th book in the series, something that wasn't indicated on the back of the cover. My question is this: Is it necessary that I read the previous books in the series in order to understand the plot of this one, or can I jump right into it? You *could* jump right into it, but the later books in the series have many multi-book plot arcs. That one's relatively self-contained for the later series, but I'd still strongly advise reading the books in order. If you liked Master and Commander, it's definitely worth just taking the plunge and buying the whole shooting match at once. Divided by 21, that's only six dollars per book, and they're hardbacks! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Mar 13, 2011 |
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Mar 13, 2011 15:31
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Thirding that you can read them out of order but you would miss a lot of character development.
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Mar 13, 2011 17:56
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Thanks for all the help, guys. All things considered, I think I'll follow your advice and read them in order, so as not to miss out on anything important.
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Mar 14, 2011 19:43
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I had a couple of books to finish before I started this, but finally managed to sit down with it. Man the first 30% or so were a hard slog. When Maturin gets taken up to the crows nest by Mr Killick (?) and then they spend pages and pages of describing sails to me... that was a struggle. I mean, I know I should expect a level of boat-porn, but this was hardcore stuff. oval office-splice indeed. Also, I Jack breaking his mast and getting a new one(?) felt like I should have thought "what a clever fellow" whereas I was more left feeling "huh?", any kindly goon able to explain that to me? Still, the intro was excellent, and whenever people are talking I'm completely engaged, so I'll have to see how it goes. Don't think I'll be tearing through all 21 back to back though.
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Mar 24, 2011 22:56
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Evfedu posted:I had a couple of books to finish before I started this, but finally managed to sit down with it. I'm pretty sure the reader is supposed to be bewildered about all the complexity of the sails and rigging and whatnot. Stephen too knows absolutely nothing about ships, and it becomes a running joke through the series as he misuses nautical terms and fall down hatches / off the side of the ship every book. It's obvious to the reader that Stephen is absolutely brilliant in a lot of ways, but O'Brian knows that his audience, while they may have some ideas about politics or spy stories or nature, (probably) has absolutely no clue about the mechanics or rigging of a three-masted sailing ship. By fully describing it, he: a) teaches us at the same time Stephen is learning about it; b) Enables us to empathize with Stephen, because we too probably won't recall or understand much of what is going on; c) really establishes the authenticity of the novels. Like I said before, the stories end up not sounding like "Modern-day hero, but in the past!", but more like "These are relatively realistic adventures on a ship that doesn't magically sail itself through the power of narrative fiction, but rather sails through the interplay of a myriad of sails and ropes (in fiction)"
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Mar 24, 2011 23:21
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Buttonhead posted:I'm pretty sure the reader is supposed to be bewildered about all the complexity of the sails and rigging and whatnot. I think it's also, especially right there in the first book, a bit of the same reason that Umberto Eco puts that gigantic multi page description of the abbey door right there in the beginning of The Name of the Rose -- it's there to let the reader know that 1) this book has some serious scholarly chops, and that therefore 2) your rear end better be ready to hang and/or deal with it. It's a test of the reader, to see if you're serious enough to power through :P
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Mar 24, 2011 23:27
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Evfedu posted:Also, I Jack breaking his mast and getting a new one(?) felt like I should have thought "what a clever fellow" whereas I was more left feeling "huh?", any kindly goon able to explain that to me? Not much to explain, they wouldn't give him a new mast just because he didn't like the old one, so he went out and broke the old one in a way that couldn't quite be accused of being intentional. It's been a while, but IIRC there was even some nudge-nudge, wink-wink chat with the supply guy hinting that this would be the best way to get a replacement. Anyway, these books are a lot like scifi in the sense that the author just drops the reader directly into a fairly technically-detailed world that they know practically nothing about and have to pick up as they go.
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Mar 24, 2011 23:28
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I am loving the dialogue and interplay (obviously) paraphrased: "with affectionate violence he jostled him inside" and "no mention was made of the incident in the ship's log, as it did not possess the language to explain that the boat's surgeon had shaken his fist at the captain". I have no idea why that's as funny as it was to me.
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Mar 25, 2011 21:22
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I think its the way all of o'briens descriptions are really understated, and you kind of add the humour to it yourself, I dont really know how else to describe it. Its probably the single thing for me that really sets his writing aside, and I've never read any other author that manages to pull it off quite like he does. Also, get it right guys, it was the mainyard, not a mast.
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Mar 26, 2011 04:14
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Pharnakes posted:Also, get it right guys, it was the mainyard, not a mast. Oh god I can't believe I missed this. I even have A Sea of Words sitting less than 20 feet from me. :-/
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Mar 27, 2011 05:15
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Cool, I was wondering when a thread about this series would pop up. I'm reading through the Nutmeg of Consolation right now.
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Mar 27, 2011 07:47
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I don't want to derail this thread, since we're talking about one of the best authors and books ever. But I read a lot, and someone asked on page 1 about Alexander Kent's Bolitho series. Here's my entirely subjective opinion on it and a few others. Bolitho is entertaining, if not as well-written as O'Brian (but frankly none of the other series are). Richard Bolitho has kind of a twentieth century moral code, and does his best for his crew and their families as he can within the confines of the Royal Navy. It bogs down later, when his love life begins to sound like "Lord Nelson and Lady Hamilton, if they were _awesome_", but picks up again when Kent focuses more on his illegitimate nephew. I liked reading the series, and the action scenes are great, but Kent doesn't make you feel for the characters themselves as much as O'Brian. Alexander Pope has his Lord Ramage series, and it's a good bit more fun to read. Ramage is a bit more realistic, and the characters seem less stuffy than the Bolitho series. Ramage himself is a young, educated nobleman who takes a page from Lord Cochrane's bio when it comes to ship-handling and strategy. He's also handsome, speaks several languages, is rich as hell, carries a throwing knife in his boot, has a posse of multicultural crew members that follow him from ship, is in love with a real-life princess, and sounds like exactly the kind of Mary Sue that a bad writer would make up. But it's really good, and he's actually entertaining. Then there's C. S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower. Like everyone else is saying, they're great action stories, but not that well researched. Give the guy a break. He was the first modern author to write in this genre, he started halfway through (Beat to Quarters) Hornblower's career, and sort of ret-conned his way backwards and forwards from there. Besides, the guy wrote the African Queen, and the A&E version with Ion Gruffudd was what got me into the genre to start with. Think of Hornblower as a quick watercolor sketch and Aubrey/Maturin as an oil painting of the same time-period. But the guy I recommend above any others is Dewey Lambdin. Alan Lewrie is the anti-Hornblower, the Costello to O'Brian's Abbot, and one hell of a lot of fun to read. Lewrie would rather be on shore wasting his father's money, screwing and drinking every night of the week in London. But he's basically blackmailed into the Navy, and finds out that he's actually pretty good at it. His characters are unique and full of life; as is London and British society at the time. Lewrie is an unashamed toady and catch-fart to anyone with more money or a higher rank than him, he's cheap and nasty to anyone of a lower rank (he gets better) and pretty much is the 19th century equivalent of that stereotypical rich jock who everybody hates. This is counterbalanced by the brass set of balls he has in any conflict (battle or arguments), and his bloody-minded determination to make his way in the career he hates. The guy is awesome, and just gets better every book. Lambdin also goes out of his way to call bullshit on naval cliche's and stereotypes. For example, in every one of the other series, the Ship's Purser is always a cheating bastard, who issues spoiled food and drink to the crew, takes false deductions from dead sailor's wages, and out of their kid's mouths. In real life, it was very difficult to break even, never mind turn a profit, as a Purser in the navy. Lambdin makes the ship's purser in the first few books an actually decent human being, who goes out of his way to help Lewrie without any thought of reward. And to top it off, he names the guy Cheatem  So yeah, tl;dr version: There's a lot of Naval Historical Fiction out there. Dewey Lambin is awesome, and you should go out and read The King's Coat as well. He makes it fun. Also, the movie, Master & Commander, takes stuff from like 5 books in the series, and is well worth watching (it doesn't spoil anything, really). Even though I always envisioned Aubrey and Maturin as kinda like a battle-scarred John Goodman and Steve Buscemi, the relationship between the two is well done. And after reading the books, the minor characters will just pop out at you. Killick's surliness, Bonden's skill, Padeen's mute gentleness, Awkward Davie's scariness, etc.
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Mar 28, 2011 00:05
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SafetyDance posted:Even though I always envisioned Aubrey and Maturin as kinda like a battle-scarred John Goodman and Steve Buscemi... I just want to point out that at his heaviest when Stephen is lambasting Jack for his weight he comes in at ~16 stone which is 224 lbs which isn't that huge for an athletic 6 footer. At his more normal 14 stone (196 lbs) he would probably be pretty close to what he was portrayed as in the movie.
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Mar 29, 2011 02:25
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Keep in mind that this was happening at the time when being tubercular/pallidly emaciated was the height of genteel manliness. Kinda like with hipsters now. So burly Jack Aubrey, ruddy cheeked and lion maned, was not really on the avant-garde of fashion. Stephen, being of Iberian extraction and furthermore being of the gaunt intellectual variety so prevalent among the dismal swamps of Dublin, was always concerned that Jack would suffer from overheating and apoplexy. In a sense though, this constant harping was simply O'Brian's method of making sure the reader did not forget that Jack WAS this beefy guy who would fatten up when sitting about on land or on blockade. It's interesting that while the Aubrey-Maturin novels are better, in my mind, as a series than the Hornblower books, there is no stand alone spectacular read. Granted, Master and Commander is a great, but doesn't compare to say Beat to Quarters or Ship of the Line as complete novel. I've been wondering about the Ramage novels for quite a while and it's good to hear a review. Never wanted to take the plunge of buying the whole to passel only to be disappointed.
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Mar 29, 2011 17:50
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Smashurbanipal posted:It's interesting that while the Aubrey-Maturin novels are better, in my mind, as a series than the Hornblower books, there is no stand alone spectacular read. Granted, Master and Commander is a great, but doesn't compare to say Beat to Quarters or Ship of the Line as complete novel. Thats just because they are all so good. 
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Mar 30, 2011 00:56
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I'm about 80% through The Surgeon's Mate (#7) after going on a company trip. I spent my evenings in the hotel room reading. Also, I watch Parks & Recreation regularly and there is a point where a character declares that instead of working he is going to sit here and a read a book about old boats, and he holds Nutmeg of Consolation up to the camera. edit: All the mention of food inspired me to try Port wine. Wow. I don't like sweet things that much and that stuff was like alcoholic syrup.
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Apr 7, 2011 18:06
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Molybdenum posted:I'm about 80% through The Surgeon's Mate (#7) after going on a company trip. I spent my evenings in the hotel room reading. Ha ha, I saw that too! As for port wine, it really depends on what you get. It is fairly sweet, that's why it was drunk after dinner, with nuts or after pudding. Good port wine is incredible, long finish with a lot of complex flavors-chocolate, dark fruits, nutty flavors, tobacco-excellent stuff with a cigar or after a satisfying meal. If you're getting into them, I would recommend trying a ten year old tawny port, or a late bottled vintage (LBV)style. There's a great post in GWS on port if anyone's interested in learning more. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3186582&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=13 (about the fifth post down, sorry I don't remember how to link to individual posts).
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Apr 7, 2011 20:16
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So, does Maturin's opiate addiction serve as a specific character trait simply for means of moving the plotline or is it more of a foundation of his character? As far as I remember, he gets hooked on a few other things, most notably to chewing coca leaves.
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Apr 8, 2011 23:25
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It is a foundation of his character, a means to deal with his inability of attaining Diana's love (note how he goes into thousands of drops a night when things look hopeless in this regard, and is nearly off the drug when everything goes fine). It influences some of his decisions, and makes him prone to errors at times. It also is an important thing setting up a plot line that goes on over a few books Padeen weaning him off it by mistake and his taking a full dose in Sweden, nearly dying from it, continued with Padeen's deportations to Australia because of his addiction fuelled rage attack. But yeah, he's always addicted to something, cocoa leaves being the most benign of his drugs.
Decius fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Apr 9, 2011 |
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Apr 9, 2011 11:38
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I take it cocoa leaves is basicaly unrefined cocaine?
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Apr 11, 2011 22:17
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Pharnakes posted:I take it cocoa leaves is basicaly unrefined cocaine? Assuming we're talking about Coca leaves (as opposed to Cocoa leaves, which are different)... chewing the leaves themselves is a stimulant, and has been used by Native Americans in South America as a tradition since times immemorial. It also cuts down on nausea when you're going up and down the Andes. And Cocaine comes from the Coca plant through some process I don't really know about.
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Apr 11, 2011 22:45
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Pharnakes posted:I take it cocoa leaves is basicaly unrefined cocaine? Looking in my Sea of Words: Dean King posted:coca The South American shrub Erythroxylon coca and its dried leaves, which contain cocaine. These leaves are chewed with powered lime as an appeaser of hunger and as a stimulant. Coca first appeared as a patent medicine in the 1840s and as a local anaesthetic in 1884. I just love that book.
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Apr 12, 2011 01:35
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Pharnakes posted:I take it cocoa leaves is basicaly unrefined cocaine? It's basically at the same level of drugs cannabis is at, only that instead of hungry and high you are awake and active, it also reduces perception of pain and allows you to overstress your body more. It's everywhere in Western South America, and yes it is the unrefined form of cocaine.
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Apr 12, 2011 06:06
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I love Stephen's substance issues. It's hilarious to see such a brilliant dude totally give in to addiction, in a lot of scenes I didn't catch the first time through. Like in Desolation Island, when he writes in his diary something about how he's having difficulty not hitting on Ms. Wogan, as she'll obviously go for it, but also because after having kicked his Laudanum habit his animal urges are returning. Clearly, from an Intelligence perspective he can't sleep with her, so the good of the country demands he return to his tincture.  Stephen Maturin edit where's the :catalan: flag 
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Apr 12, 2011 07:59
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I've kind of nurtured a secret desire to try chewing coca leaves because of Maturin. Patrick O'Brian = gateway drug.
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Apr 12, 2011 15:30
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Well I've gone overboard. I bought Musical Evenings with the Captain Vol 1 & 2 along with the cookbook. I am vegetarian so many of the recipes are right out but I'll be trying my hand shortly, probably next weekend.
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Apr 15, 2011 14:26
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I just got Mr. Midshipman Easy by Marryat. I've heard conflicting things on the quality of the writin but the author was a 3rd Lt. under Cochrane so it's certainly got the authenticity factor going for it.
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Apr 17, 2011 04:20
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SafetyDance posted:Dewey Lambin is awesome, and you should go out and read The King's Coat as well. He makes it fun. Dewey Lambdin is the equivalent of grocery store checkout line bodice rippers for men.
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Apr 18, 2011 09:12
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Thoguh posted:I will admit though that for the most part I greatly prefer the parts when they are at sea to when they are on land (though there are some great land based chapters, like when Jack is on the run from creditors and the crew is beating the crap out of people sent to take him to debtors prison). The stuff on land just tends to drag compared to the awesomeness of O'Brian's descriptions of life at sea. At first I reacted the same as you to the long dry stretches (  ) between the voyages.Now I've read the series for my 3rd time, and I really enjoyed the detailed descriptions of life and society in the country - because O'Brian is as spot on with those as he is with the nautical stuff. This is one of the strong points of the series: it's not only about ships and battles, it's about the life of seamen in 18th/19th century england. Evfedu posted:I had a couple of books to finish before I started this, but finally managed to sit down with it. I just pretend that I'm Maturin and feign understanding of everything Raskolnikov2089 posted:I've kind of nurtured a secret desire to try chewing coca leaves because of Maturin. I checked how legal it would be to import them into germany because of those books  (Not very much) Edit: If anyone wants to read real-life based background information about the nautical stuff, I can recommend Nelson's Navy Nektu fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Apr 18, 2011 |
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Apr 18, 2011 12:18
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I recommend "To Rule the Waves" http://www.amazon.com/Rule-Waves-British-Shaped-Modern/dp/0060534249 Very good general overview of the rise of the British Navy, and quite exciting to read at some points. I finished my backlog and have re-started the series for my annual readthrough. Maybe it's because I saw and fell in love with the movie first, but I can't help but picture Jack Aubrey as Russell Crowe. He's just so uniquely suited to play the part. Just like JA, he's an expert when he's in his element (acting) but everything else in his life is a complete mess.
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Apr 18, 2011 14:40
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I just restarted my read of the series, and ran across my favorite passage in M&C "But there was no sleeping; the echoing crash of the hammer right next to his ear, ludicrously followed by the sound of whispering between the carpenter and his mates, made certain of that." I have never run across a writer who so excelled at mise en scene. Such spare prose, yet so very, very rich and engrossing.
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Apr 21, 2011 02:42
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Just want to re-iterate that these are the best works of historical fiction ever written or that will ever be written. They have literally changed every aspect of my life (and not always for the better), from how I speak and interact with other people to how I view new technology. His humor is literally the best thing in comedy, ever. The ludicrous elevation of Maturin politely asking for an apology in the ward room to him dragging the offending officer up and down the deck whipping him with his gold-headed cane is priceless. Gotta love those common seamen.
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Apr 21, 2011 05:08
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Space Monster posted:Just want to re-iterate that these are the best works of historical fiction ever written or that will ever be written. They have literally changed every aspect of my life (and not always for the better), from how I speak and interact with other people to how I view new technology.  Would you elaborate? Space Monster posted:His humor is literally the best thing in comedy, ever. The ludicrous elevation of Maturin politely asking for an apology in the ward room to him dragging the offending officer up and down the deck whipping him with his gold-headed cane is priceless. Gotta love those common seamen. Thanks for reminding me of that scene
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Apr 21, 2011 10:16
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Raskolnikov2089 posted:Maybe it's because I saw and fell in love with the movie first, but I can't help but picture Jack Aubrey as Russell Crowe. He's just so uniquely suited to play the part. Just like JA, he's an expert when he's in his element (acting) but everything else in his life is a complete mess. I had read maybe four of the books before I saw the movie, and I too now picture him looking like Russell Crowe. I'm not a big fan of him otherwise, but he just pulled the role off so well that I can't help it. Paul Bettany was also pretty good as Maturin, though maybe a bit too handsome.
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Apr 21, 2011 14:37
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Nektu posted:
I've read them so many times that the opinions of the characters (and the way they speak) infiltrates my daily life. I, without thinking about it until it's done, occasionally phrase things in an archaic way. I am more superstitious, and I tend to view radical ideologies in a poorer light until I think about WHY I'm doing it. It's a bit strange.
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Apr 21, 2011 18:07
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In other news; I just finished "Post Captain" from my local library, but thought it ended rather abruptly. Anyway, it turns out that the swedish translation is split up into two separate volumes, for some reason. So, now I have to hope that the library has the second part as well. As for the book itself, so far I like it. On one hand, Aubrey and Maturin spends alot more time on land than on a ship and I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the other hand, the new characters such as Diana Villiers and Mr. Canning are pretty interesting and I hope to see more of them. I also loved the part when, during the temporary peace between England and France, Aubrey has dinner with Christy-Palliére and the latter gets a message that a mysterious individual has been snooping around. Anyway, Aubrey deduces that this guy is Maturin and finds it extremely funny that the french suspects the harmless doctor of being a spy.
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Apr 26, 2011 12:58
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As for "Post Captain", O'Brian has stated that the "English countryside" portion of the novel is his homage to Jane Austen. Most of the rest of the series is, in general, much more nautically oriented...and even the periods which transpire on land are war-themed. From a personal perspective, I utterly love these books, even though it DID take me a little while to get into them. I can completely sympathize with the poster who said that it was initially a slog. M&C was definitely the hardest one, just from the difficulty of orienting myself to O'Brian's prose style. Once you get used to it, though, things open up dramatically. The first time I reread M&C I was amazed at how much nuance I had missed with my initial read, because I was concentrating so hard on understanding what was going on that the subtler stuff went right over my head. This is absolutely a series that rewards multiple readings. Oddly enough, I still think my favorite passage in the series is from M&C, when Jack and Stephen are talking about the harshness of hanging a man for buggery. First time that O'Brian made me literally burst out laughing. Master and Commander posted:His Majesty's Sloop Sophie
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Apr 26, 2011 21:03
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From the sameMaster and Commander posted:He was not, indeed, inattentive; but his attention was not so wholly taken up that he did not hear Jack cry, "Oh, yes, yes! The rest of them are certainly coming ashore - they are lining the rail in their shore-going rig, with money in their pockets, their eyes staring out of their heads and their pricks a yard long." He could scarcely have avoided hearing it, for Jack had a fine carrying voice, and his remark happened to drop into one of those curious silences that occur even in very numerous assemblies.
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Apr 27, 2011 05:25
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