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I'm listening to the books on tape narrated by Patrick Tull. He's so good. I listen on my commute every day for the past couple months so I'm nearing Blue at the Mizzen and starting to dread it. I'm halfway through Wine-Dark Sea now and I'm afraid Jack is going to lose that eye. He's come through so many scrapes without permanent damage it feels like his time is finally up and Killick is dosing it with that quack panacea and they're stuck in the half-decked schooner with that easterly wind keeping them off the coast of Peru and no doctor. I got into the books through the movie. It really is great and I love how the movie managed to capture life at sea more than just the battles. I had a friend who didn't get why the story just kept going at the end and the viewer was the one who departed but I thought it was the perfect ending. I can't believe Hollum had an even worse fate in the books than in the movie. Mr. Blakeney is Mr. Reed but is he an amalgamation with a character I haven't run into yet? I don't remember any lords in the midshipmen's berth. Colonial Air Force posted:I would definitely read at least one of the books before watching the film, just so you understand that the casting is drat near perfect for every character EXCEPT Maturin. We've discussed it earlier in the thread, and certainly Paul Bettany is a fine actor, but I always pictured Maturin more Catalonian than Irish. Paul Bettany's got the pale-eyed reptilian glare down though, and he's believable enough as a doctor and a naturalist and a fencer. You can't always cast for physical features. I never got the significance of his line about spies "The French have their spies in England and elsewhere, as do we." in the movie until reading the books. Couple questions: What is a spritsail topsail? Wouldn't that be just another jib? (The Jib of Jibs' Jib?) Where is the capstan exactly? I keep thinking it should be amidships in the waist but apparently it's on the quarterdeck?! (On the Surprise.) What's the difference between a royal and a topgallant? Is the mainsail of a mast the topsail or the course? What are the knees? Hanging knees? I finally figured out the chains (which are not chains  ) but I don't have a good grasp of the rest of the load-bearing structure of the ship.What was the difficulty with the (horrible old) Leopard's newfangled stern post that made them unable to ship the new rudder? What is so objectionable about Dutch-built ships? Is it just the beamy stern? How many degrees is a point on the compass? They always describe their ships/vessels/craft ability to sail close to the wind with points on the compass. And on a slightly different subject that I've had no luck with researching: how is a Chinese junk's hull built? I've heard that junk hulls are uncommonly strong but they don't appear to have a keel as such so they must be pretty different to a ship. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 13:48
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| # ¿ May 8, 2024 20:49 |
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Okay, royals above t'gallants I forgot that. I do know a lot of the basic stuff, I have been reading up as I go. I mean I know what a capstan is. You said the quarterdeck capstan: is there more than one capstan? If there's more than one no wonder I can't figure out where it is. Is the mainsail the topsail or the course? When they say host the mainsail, are they talking about the main topsail or the main course? Or can the mizzen and foremast be said to have a mainsail too? In any case, the question is whether it's the topsail or the course. The spritsail topsail isn't this?  The sail above the spritsail... the spritsail topsail. Edited for huge. I assumed that the sprit in question was the bowsprit but I didn't understand how the bowsprit could carry a topsail yard. I still don't understand how the Surprise could carry a topsail yard on her bowsprit without having a sprit topmast which she presumably doesn't have or every seaman in the book would comment on it because it's like a Ye Olde Columbus Tymes spar you'd expect to find on a 15th century caravel not a 28-gun sixth rate from the late 18th century. So I assumed it was some kind of jib because again, how can Surprise carry a topsail yard on her bowsprit? I'll have to go back and find a reference to it because it probably has something to do with the jib boom which I only recently found out what that is. I have no doubt that what your picture shows is a spritsail but in looking up sail plans I have often been confounded by the modern dominance of the fore-and-aft rig so that some terms are not presented accurately for their role in a ship rig. About the junk construction; really I want to know how they are built, as in the process. The European ship's frame is laid on the keel and the junk doesn't have a keel as such. I know about the watertight bulkheads (someone comments on it in Nutmeg or 13 Gun Salute) but I had heard that junks had an unusually strong stiff hull and I'm just guessing that the bulkheads aren't the reason, though maybe they are. And as for the undesirability of Dutch-built ships, haven't you heard everyone saying "Dutch-built bugger" and "unhandy Dutch-built tub/whale/sow" so I'm just curious about that. I think one of Jack's daughters even called the other a grass-combing Dutch-built bugger at some point. As an English teacher I also love the flexible way they use "which." Often they'll just jam two sentences together with it. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:14
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AlphaDog posted:Referring to something as "dutch-built" is insulting throughout the series. Ah that would make sense; doesn't shallower (and wider) mean less stable on heavy seas? So it would be more likely to broach or capsize. No wonder a professional sailor would dislike them.
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Nov 10, 2014 15:30
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AlphaDog posted:A ship can have more than one capstan, although I'm not sure Suprise does. Thanks. It looks like the yard is on the jib boom which I knew I should have gone back and re-listened to that part because I don't think I knew what the jib boom was when they were talking about the spritsail topsail. I had no idea the jib boom could be so long. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:33
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Colonial Air Force posted:They're also slab-sided! Okay I'll bite, what does that mean? No tumblehome so more unstable still?  Doesn't it look like here that the spritsail topsail yard is on the jib boom? It's really near to the jib tack. Well here was my problem I assumed that the spritsail topsail would have to be above the bowsprit. That's why I was saying it has to be some kind of jib or else I can't imagine where the yard would go. But it's just a topsail in the sense of the bowsprit being another mast and it's further along the bowsprit than the spritsail so it counts as a topsail. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 15:47
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Haha yeah I got that from context, but I was curious as to the origin of the term.
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Nov 10, 2014 15:54
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Okay, so that's cleared up. Any other answers to my questions on the last page? How many degrees is a point on the compass? What are the knees?
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Nov 10, 2014 16:02
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Well that's embarrassing, I assumed this was historical navigation stuff and wikipedia would only have the modern version. I guess the compass hasn't changed that much huh. edit: Oh and the compass is right by the wheel, so you'd be looking down at the compass when steering so naturally you'd express how close you can turn into the wind by compass points. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Nov 10, 2014 |
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Nov 10, 2014 16:10
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Hey that must be the same Leopard. So on a Portland class 4th rate they are in the waist I guess? Or does the waist refer to the area between the gangways and you can't use it to refer to the gun deck?
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Nov 10, 2014 16:19
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Hey thanks, I've never been super clear about what the orlop is.
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Nov 10, 2014 16:34
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Wiki says the shrouds used to be literally attached to the frame with chains and the name stuck even after they ceased to be chains. The chains is where the motive force is transferred from the rigging to the hull so you want them to be strong as gently caress. Hence literal metal chains. It makes sense when they talk about the ship hauling under the chains, which the frame is actually slightly warped by the force under a strong load. Here's a question I don't expect to find on Wikipedia. Has the word "chuff" reversed meanings in the last 200 years? I've always heard it mean pleased or happy but in the books it's always used to mean rude or angry.
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Nov 11, 2014 04:10
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Awesome, I love navigation. When I was a kid I wanted to read the map and plan the trip for my parents. Hearing about the prevailing winds and currents and lee shores is awesome. I want to hear all about Jack changing course to avoid the unusually variable trades this season.
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Nov 11, 2014 14:39
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In Nutmeg I think someone mentions that the Malays can never believe how much water the western ships draw. Looking at the diagrams it's hard to believe myself. Half the ship is under the waterline!
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Nov 11, 2014 15:02
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I'm halfway through 18 and it's starting to read like Jack Aubrey's Horrible No Good Very Bad Day.
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 14:38
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In 18, I must have missed something: how did Maturin get his fortune back after it was seized by the bank in Spain? Oh my god Diana and Clarissa giving Sophie The Talk at ~38. I had forgotten how funny these books could be. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 05:28
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No that was a different thing. What you're talking about was back when Jack advised Stephen to transfer his money to a country bank before they left on their circumnavigation covered in Reverse of the Medal to Wine-Dark Sea. They got the news about the bank failing in Australia, and then when they finally got back it turned out like you said. What I mean is in The Commodore, book 17, when Lord Haverbacksdale (sp?) discovers that Stephen, whom he knows killed Wray and Ledward (sp?) is guilty of returning two transported convicts and possibly treason from his involvement in the Irish rising, he brings an accusation in court. Stephen has to whisk his chests of gold from London to Spain before the case comes to court and his assets are frozen. He borrows Jack's schooner and takes his gold from London to Coruna I think, where he puts it in the bank. Then while they're off the coast of Africa taking slavers Dutord gets back from South America and denounces Stephen as the prime mover in the Peruvian independence conspiracy. So even though Haverbacksdlaghdsd kills himself and that ends the suit, Stephen can't go back to Spain to get his gold (I'm not sure if it was actually seized) and in the beginning of 18 Stephen mentions to Sir Joseph Banks that a) he lost the receipt for the bank in Coruna but then remembered he left it on Bellona or something and b) he has to borrow money from Jack, who can't lend him any because he's getting sued very successfully by slavers he captured illegally. Then like ¾ of the way through 18 Banks mentions to Stephen that he's rich again, and when he gets back Stephen tells Diana he found the receipt and everything's in order again so she can unpawn her diamond. What I don't understand is how he ever got the money from the bank in Coruna if he's wanted in Spain. Like I said I must have missed something. I know he went on a ride through Spain with Diana, Padine, Clarissa and Bridget, but I thought they were avoiding the authorities. I got a bit misty-eyed when Stephen listening through the door caught Bridget talking to Padine. I was really worried all through their trip to Australia and Peru that the unnamed problem with Bridget would turn out to be fetal alcohol syndrome.
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Nov 20, 2014 06:19
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I like how Clarissa and Diana tell Sophie to have an affair with this guy that they know to learn how to do the deed better and Diana slightly later mentions to Stephen how surprisingly literal-minded Sophie is.
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Nov 20, 2014 11:10
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MAJOR SPOILERS: I can't believe Diana fell in a river and drowned while Stephen and Jack were away. Looks like Stephen can't believe it either.
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 15:07
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Master and Commander is probably the best single entry in the series and introduces a ton of recurring characters so you might as well start there. I have a weird fondness for Desolation Island.
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Dec 11, 2014 05:51
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Fleet actions just sound hard to describe. It's a recurring comment from characters that have experienced them which they can't see or hear much beyond their ship and station once the battle really gets started.
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Dec 11, 2014 07:15
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I just encountered hog's face irl and no wonder Aubrey is a tubby man. It's easily 60% fat.
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Dec 21, 2014 09:23
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To be fair it goes over like a bombshell the first 10 times he uses it. Especially after everyone's had a glass or five of wine.
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Dec 23, 2014 01:43
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I mean she's captured by a 74 in calm weather. With sweeps and stunsels out. And the 74 never bothered to set stunsels. That's just embarrassing.
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Dec 24, 2014 10:39
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But you can't rezee a single decker.
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Dec 24, 2014 15:43
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A heavy frigate still has only the one gun deck. If you cut it down the gun deck would be the uppermost deck, you wouldn't really have gun ports and where to put the waist would be a real head-scratcher because I don't think the gangway could accommodate guns. For example USS Constitution's most usual battery was thirty 24-pounders on the gun deck and twenty two 32-pound carronades on the upper deck. Cut that in half and you'd end up with a weird upper-deck-only battery. And I don't think you could turn the oarlop deck of a frigate into a new gun deck, it would be too close to the waterline to be practical. Cut a deck off a 2-decker and you still get a gun deck for a frigate. Imagine sawing that in half at the gun deck. You'd end up with something not very stable and with not a lot of space for guns. In the end, what we can learn from this is that lite beer is terrible, has poor sea-keeping qualities and no place for cannons.
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Dec 24, 2014 16:46
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That and the old Portland class 64s were obsolete by the ubiquitous French 74 design which was superior in absolutely every way.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:41
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I think Sophie had been tempted but didn't until her friends sat her down and told her she should, and in the end it wasn't with the guy that Jack suspected her of having an affair with, who to everyone's surprise moved to India and got married. It's never specifically stated but Diana strongly implies that Sophie had an affair, but isn't specific about with whom. To Jack's great credit he had decided to forgive Sophie for having an affair before discovering that she actually hadn't through Stephen, who only found out her actual affair later. Although he was pretty crushed about it. They really are too similar to each other sometimes. I remember way back in Fortunes of War I was pissed at Stephen for not cockblocking Jack with Amanda Smith. He was right that it wasn't his responsibility but Jack was so obviously blundering into a trap. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Dec 29, 2014 |
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Dec 29, 2014 13:16
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Camera angles are a hell of a thing.
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Jan 5, 2015 15:43
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I just watched that scene (because of course I have this with me) and it's the editing that makes Jack seem tall. The wide shot has Nagel walking forward with Jack in the background talking with Tom at the binnacle. Russel Crowe is clearly elevated only like ~14 inches above Nagel as in the picture of Rose because he is standing on that very same quarterdeck. After Nagel shoulder-checks Hollum (with Jack in the background noticing) the scene cuts to a low angle medium-close shot of Jack yelling. You can't see Nagel or either deck level. Nothing changed except the camera's position and angle, but the editing and angle combine to make Jack (Russell Crowe) look a lot taller all of a sudden. And not by accident either; Jack suddenly asserting his authority and the camera suddenly making him look a lot taller than the crew is probably not a coincidence. Directing!
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Jan 5, 2015 17:40
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Well I just finished the series. Quite bittersweet for me. Though the characters get their happy ending more or less. Too bad Stephen never got back home to that pretty young naturalizing widow. I'm already thinking about reading it again. Favorite books: Master and Commander The Mauritius Campaign The Fortunes of War Desolation Island The Nutmeg of Consolation I feel like I should read some Jane Austen before I tackle Pride and Prejudice and Boats again. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 02:35
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BeigeJacket posted:Did the Admiralty ever pay out for that ship? I remember Aubrey arguing with some official, (a civilian and a scrub to boot) who said as it couldn't be verified no prize money was due. That guy didn't even understand what the 40s were. I hated him so much. Almost as much as the Leopard. gently caress that ship. The Americans didn't even have their cannons on deck! I remember Jack thinks to himself something along the lines of "what a disaster for the service" when they mention the Leopard-Chesapeake Affair but seriously, go read up on it. The British captain had zero reason to fire a broadside into Chesapeake and he fired three. He killed three people in order to get four deserters, three of whom later turned out to be American citizens. The British government had to give up the three men and pay reparations, all but admitting that Captain Humphreys had been in the wrong. Humphreys never commanded a ship again. It was a disaster for the Royal Navy's reputation. Captain Barron of the Chesapeake was also court-martialled and convicted for putting to sea in such an unprepared state. A clusterfuck all around.
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Feb 18, 2015 19:00
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 Wow I thought that was the scabbard when I first looked at it. That's the blade!
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Mar 5, 2015 02:52
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Babbington is so dumb. I always crack up at this exchange about Aubrey's pistol wound on the Diane expedition: "At the time I thought it was one of those frightful nags running about the quarterdeck." "But sir! Surely a horse would never fire off a pistol!"
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Mar 11, 2015 14:27
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:If by "dumb" you mean hilarious and awesome. My favorite Babbington moment is him bringing his ship into company with Surprise while he's got a quarterdeck full of Lesbians. I feel the same way as Stephen. When Jack asks him if he thinks Babbington is intelligent he can't help but laugh and says basically "I love that kid but no he dumb." And it was a sloop. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 01:22
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I would have to write it all out and I'm on my phone, but basically there's no point in the series where superstition doesn't act in a manner indistinguishable from a law of nature. You can always read it two ways but I can't think or a point where the superstitions prove wrong. It's confirmation bias. You're just doing the same thing as the sailors. Jack has tremendously good luck throughout his career. Good things are happening all the time. They get rescued out of awful situations all the time, but you don't attribute that to good omens. You attribute bad luck to bad omens, and when something bad happens go looking for a prior cause. Poof, you've convinced yourself bad omens are real. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:26 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 03:20
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Nektu posted:This is doubly true considering O'Briens sparse storytelling - all the uninteresting conversations about omens that did not come true are simply left out. I wasn't really paying attention this morning and Diane teleported three thousand miles from the Channel to Inaccessible Island.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:13
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China's pretty big, most famines were regional. Also; class differences. Also by the early 19th century there were lots of Chinese people living in other places, like every Chinese character in the novels.
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Jul 27, 2015 03:30
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Yeah they visit communities with Chinese Diaspora minorities in what is now Indonesia, but they never get up towards Canton (Guangdong). Nutmeg does stop in Canton on the way back to Java but Jack and Stephen transfer to Surprise before that.
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Jul 27, 2015 06:07
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Duckbag posted:Oh I know, and that's why I don't really worry about still not knowing what "hawsers" are (don't tell me, I enjoy the mystery). Which it's a bloody great rope about 18" wide mate, cable-layed which is anticlockwise or as some says widdershins, but however is called a hawser and never a cable, and which you'd know already if you wasn't the great dutch-built lubber of the world.
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Jul 29, 2015 08:38
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| # ¿ May 8, 2024 20:49 |
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I read that as a joke.
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Sep 21, 2015 01:55
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