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Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012
I can't for the life of me find the scans, but....

One of my friends as a kid had an aunt who worked in a pulbishing company, so she got him tons of comics that I got to skim. And one that -really- stuck with me was Kevin O'Neil's Marshal Law series. It seemed like the late 80s grimdark antihero fare, only MORE.

Except it really wasn't. It was a weird thing, an early deconstruction of a deconstruction. A Punisher-like vigilante hunting heroes who have gone mad with PTSD and formed gangs after the metahuman version of the Vietnam War. Except...his secret-identity unemployed construction worker self is dating a poli-sci college student who hates superheroes and is writing a thesis on how the very concept of them in damaging and toxic. And she's not protrayed as a loony SJW caricature. Rash, for sure, but also very much on point.

And the very last pages of the first series, when after a ton of INSANE poo poo goes down, he finally reads her work, even about his own superhero identity, and it just lays bare the core of the world, the recent events, and his own motivation. It's sad and touching, and also a strange contrast with the super-colorful art style that still some how works.

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Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

GrandpaPants posted:

It looks like Mary Jane is back in Peter's life so that's at least a decent bargaining chip with Mephisto.

"In order to save your aunt, this time I want...your friendship with benefits. Well, not -quite- benefits, just a chemistry, you know? Not gonna say your friendzone, that's dumb, but the will-they-or-won't-they vibe. That is what Mephisto desires!"

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

I don't really agree with that. It's a power fantasy but the power fantasy is being able to stand up for your beliefs even in the face of people arguing they are implausible/unrealistic/childish. Yes, this can be twisted into horrible beliefs, but that compassion is at the center of why it works. It isn't 'great man' theory, it's the idea that you don't have to bend or compromise on what is right in favor of what is easy.

Saying that people should bend and compromise on atrocities because they are 'necessary' ignores that very often they're not. They're just easier. This is true in reality as well as in superhero fiction and trying to disguise doing something abhorrent under 'it's the only option' is a way more loving damaging viewpoint to espouse because it's one people regularly and frequently use to justify utterly awful things. There's really never a 24-style "I have to torture this person to REVEAL THE BOMB" scenario and giving additional weight to that does nobody any good considering it gets literal Supreme Court judges citing it .

"I have to do this awful thing, it's the only choice" is also a power fantasy. It's a power fantasy for people who want a justified excuse to do something terrible and feel like it was the right choice. Yet actual decisions are a lot more complex then that and the central key to most "I have to do this awful thing" things in both fiction and history isn't that it is the only choice. It's just the only choice that benefits the person making that choice.

I have to agree. The natural end of that line of 'heroism' lies in the Sword of Truth objectivist heroes.

"See, I -have- to slaughter these pacifists! Otherwise the villain will take their lands and grow stronger! YOU are the hypocrite and fool for daring to tell me I should do otherwise!"

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

biracial bear for uncut posted:

Wasn't Superman III the one where a computer eats a woman alive before Superman breaks it apart?

Pretty much the high point of that movies and an oddly terrifying scene.

Especially when I was, like, six.

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012
Is there any established, happy relationship between major X-characters? I don't think even Professor X's thing with his bird alien lady lasted.

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

akulanization posted:

they were a society based on the brutal repression of a massive slave underclass. you do not in fact have to hand it to them.

athens is also pretty lame to be clear, but sparta is one of the most systematically evil societies to ever exist.

Exactly. We have a dumb way of looking at things.

"Well, the Athenians were all enlightened and their enemies were spartans, so the Spartans were the baddies, right?"

"No."

"Ohh. Then the Spartans were the good guys!"

"No. They were both awful."

"But that makes for boring movies!"

Sparta only allowed spartiate women realtive freedom because 1- It was a way to retain all power in the structure of families even after most of the men died in wars), and 2- day-to-day drudgery and amangement was seem as menial, unworthy work for a male.

It'd be like saying "Hey, we really value our latino population, they dominate 95% of the sanitation and recycling work! seems really egalitarian to me".

And, as others said, that only applied to perhaps a couple thousand wives. The vast majority of slaves and pretty much everyone in their Messenian colony was viewed as human cattle.

Oh, and even those 'liberated' spartiate women were bred against their will at the convenience of the military machine. "This guy has good shoulders, you have good hips. Your offspring will be a good soldier. Get to the rutting."

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

Android Blues posted:

The venality and cruelty of the gods also reflected a more authoritarian worldview. If you read the Iliad, one of the central themes is, "the gods are tyrannical autocrats, and justly so - they are more powerful than us, and therefore it is folly to defy them". Hubris is the defining sin of ancient Greek narrative for a reason - because it reflects an ingrained social belief that trying to upset the social order and disobey your betters is dangerous and foolish.

It's explicit in a lot of ancient Greek myth and writing that the gods rule purely by virtue of their ability to exert their will with brute physical (or magical) force, not because of any extraordinary reserve of wisdom, justice, or moral rectitude. More bizarrely to our modern egalitarian worldview, this is often also presented as a natural good.

See: the myth of Arachne, where a woman who is a better weaver than Athene gets turned into a spider because she bruised a god's pride, and the moral of the story is "don't try to exceed your betters, don't act out of turn, cower before authority or you'll be punished". A lot of ancient Greek myth-making reflects a culture deeply enamoured with brutal oligarchy.

This. I can only suggest John Dolan's "War Nerd's Iliad", as it re-tells the story in a fun, pulpy, interesting fashion divorced from the classics wankery. The gods are like a quarrelsome mafia family, Zeus not smarter or wiser than anyone else, just -stronger-, and mortals both just and foul, are just excuses for them to do their thing.


Apollo remembers that day very well. It is like a happy song in his heart, because now it will all be avenged. All these things work out, in the long run… for the gods. He remembers leaning into the wind that day, keening with the simple blood joy of a falcon, watching the Greeks run through the alleys of the town. He knew it was all to his advantage.
The girl can’t see that, of course. There are always casualties. Apollo turns his falcon eye to her for a moment, as she watches her father approach Agamemnon’s tent. Her sorrow interests him, as a musician. What happened to her interests him, as a tactician. Otherwise—just another weeping woman.

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

Tall Tale Teller posted:

Man that loving 9/11 comic.

I could never figure out why Doom and Magneto even give a poo poo? They do 9/11’s before breakfast.

Also. Doom cries for nothing, NOTHING, except maybe his mom.

I think Doom cried in Doom 2099 when he didn't curb-stomp the megacorps quite hard enough and they melt Latveria with bioweapons.

Was that even the real Doom? I don't remember.

Hell, between Doom and Ghost Rider 2099, that universe had a rather cool and well-realized anti-megaplex vibe.

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

Dick Trauma posted:

I remember Tony becoming an alcoholic back in the seventies so it's sad to see him still struggling with addiction. :smith:

Depending on how it's done, it's a big plus.

Having relapses and bad episodes if usually a part of recovery, and pretending that you can just close the book and saunter toward the sunset is not helpful, nor accurate.

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012
I don't know what it says about the current cultural status of comics that I heard or saw nothing of this on Twitter or any media repercussions, but Superman's son kissing his boyfriend was all over the place.

Is it a case of homophobia getting clicks, or people not giving a crap about the help?

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Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

drrockso20 posted:

Rather appropriate that it's Piccolo waving at the end there considering he was Toriyama's favorite character

You think he'd let him win, like, one fight.

But yeah, it's a sweet, proper last offering.

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