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JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008

Madmarker posted:

Hey so I have a campaign that is restarting. I am a level 14 Egoist/Thrallherd and at level 15 I will be getting my second Thrall.

Now as of right now my first Thrall is a good old utility cleric. For my second Thrall, well, I want a decent character that has minimal complexity but will still be a strong contributor.

However, here is the problem, though the Dm is fine with me making the Thrall here are the rules I must follow for creation:

1) Must be single classed upon my recruiting of them.
2)I must follow the guide at the back of the DMG 2 to determine what gear the thrall starts with, and if the Thrall dies the gear dissapears to never be seen again. The thrall's gear is permanently bound to the Thrall and cannot be sold, though the Thrall can use gear out of your wealth allotment which you can do with as you please.
3)Must use the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8) for stats.
4)No Flaws/traits, and must be a race easily found on the plane.
5)This is a Greyhawk campaign, and as such, no resources specific to Forgotten Realms/Eberron/Dark Sun/etc. may be used.

At first I was thinking Druid, but then I realized that I would essentially be playing 4 characters (Thrallherd, Cleric, Druid, Animal Companion) and at least one of those characters would be summoning other characters that I would have to control, and I don't want literally every turn on the table to be my turn.


I am unsure what we will have at the table, but my most likely guess is

1) Conjurer Wizard
2) Ranger
3) Binder
4) Thrallherd (with Cleric as my current thrall) (thats me)
5) Barbarian
6) No idea at all

So, give this assortment and ruleset, what do you think a powerful, albeit simple second Thrall would be?

Another Psion with a different discipline, so you can manifest all the nifty you wish you had.

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Roadie
Jun 30, 2013
I think the obvious answer is for the thrallherd's thralls to be thrallherds.

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008

Roadie posted:

I think the obvious answer is for the thrallherd's thralls to be thrallherds.

Must be single-classed, otherwise that was my first thought.

Bouquet
Jul 14, 2001

Yawgmoth posted:

Go for a bard. Have him be a total support character and get dragonfire inspiration and/or words of creation. The ranger (and their animal companion), barbarian, and likely the binder, along with whatever the conjurer summons up, will get a huge boost to everything they do. A well created bard can be a giant force multiplier for just about any group and there's plenty of guides out there on how to do it, but pretty much all of them start with DfI and WoC.
This, but don't bother with Dragonfire Inspiration imo. The times where 10d6 energy damage is significantly better than +10 hit/attack at this level where almost all opponents have energy resistance doesn't seem worth the feat. The barbarian's power attack is probably turning that +10 to hit into +40 damage anyway. I'd rather spend that feat on Rapid Shot so bard slave friend can shoot 3 reasonably nasty arrows/round in addition to singing.

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!

Bouquet posted:

This, but don't bother with Dragonfire Inspiration imo. The times where 10d6 energy damage is significantly better than +10 hit/attack at this level where almost all opponents have energy resistance doesn't seem worth the feat. The barbarian's power attack is probably turning that +10 to hit into +40 damage anyway. I'd rather spend that feat on Rapid Shot so bard slave friend can shoot 3 reasonably nasty arrows/round in addition to singing.
There's also times when 10d6 energy damage is worth way more than +10 to hit, especially in later levels when your to-hit bonus is at or very near equal to your target's AC. And since it's a "you may", if you have the feat to spare it can be well worth it, especially if you get draconic heritage for sonic (which almost nothing resists) or acid (which is almost as rare). I certainly wouldn't replace it with Rapid Shot, since the bard isn't going to be doing enough damage with any bow at that level to bypass most enemies' DR. Get a ceremony feat or something like that in its place if 10d6 energy damage isn't your thing.

Comedy option: go Dread Necromancer and just have a horde of undead. :v:

Madmarker
Jan 7, 2007

JUST MAKING CHILI posted:

Another Psion with a different discipline, so you can manifest all the nifty you wish you had.

I thought about this, but I'm pretty good with the goodies I got.

Yawgmoth posted:

Go for a bard. Have him be a total support character and get dragonfire inspiration and/or words of creation. The ranger (and their animal companion), barbarian, and likely the binder, along with whatever the conjurer summons up, will get a huge boost to everything they do. A well created bard can be a giant force multiplier for just about any group and there's plenty of guides out there on how to do it, but pretty much all of them start with DfI and WoC.


Yawgmoth posted:

There's also times when 10d6 energy damage is worth way more than +10 to hit, especially in later levels when your to-hit bonus is at or very near equal to your target's AC. And since it's a "you may", if you have the feat to spare it can be well worth it, especially if you get draconic heritage for sonic (which almost nothing resists) or acid (which is almost as rare). I certainly wouldn't replace it with Rapid Shot, since the bard isn't going to be doing enough damage with any bow at that level to bypass most enemies' DR. Get a ceremony feat or something like that in its place if 10d6 energy damage isn't your thing.

I'm liking this idea. I was thinking something like this:

Silverbrow Human
Bard 13
Ability Scores
Starting(final)
str 10(10)
dex 12(12)
con 13(13)
int 14 (16)
wis 8 (8)
cha 15 (16)

Feats:
lvl1, Improved Initiative, Dragonfire Inspiration
lvl3 Song of the Heart
lvl 6 Words of Creation
lvl 9 Draconic Aura-Senses
lvl 12 Melodic Casting


spells-
lvl0-
Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Fleeting Fame, Ghost Sounds, Prestidigitation, Read Magic

Lvl1-
Silent Image, Inspirational Boost, Improvisation, Invisibility (Swift)

lvl2-
Glitterdust, Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Dimension Leap

lvl 3
Glibness, Haste, Scrying, Hesitate

Lvl 4
Celerity, Invisibilty(Greater), Dimension Door, Mirror Image(Greater)

Lvl 5
Dispel Magic (Greater), Suggestion (Mass)

Madmarker fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Feb 8, 2018

Madmarker
Jan 7, 2007

Well just realized Song of the Heart is an Eberron thing :( oh well, rest of the stuff should work well.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
is there a class that's a full caster of Druid spells, but doesn't have all the other bells and whistles of a Druid? Like, a Favored Soul, but uses the Druid spell list, or a Sorcerer, but minus the familiar and uses the Druid spell list?

The more direct answer is "play a Druid, and just never summon the Animal Companion nor use Wild Shape", but I was wondering if there was anything more explicit than that.

Piell
Sep 3, 2006

Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer


Young Orc

gradenko_2000 posted:

is there a class that's a full caster of Druid spells, but doesn't have all the other bells and whistles of a Druid? Like, a Favored Soul, but uses the Druid spell list, or a Sorcerer, but minus the familiar and uses the Druid spell list?

The more direct answer is "play a Druid, and just never summon the Animal Companion nor use Wild Shape", but I was wondering if there was anything more explicit than that.

Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine. It has its own little bells and whistles, but they (mostly) aren't very good.

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
You're looking at the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine. Spontaneous Druid spellcasting, no shapeshifting, but vague spirit powers and a spirit companion that doesn't fight along side you, but instead gives you abilities like "Extra saves vs. enchantments" and "Can concetrate on a spell for you"

UrbanLabyrinth
Jan 28, 2009

When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence


College Slice

gradenko_2000 posted:

is there a class that's a full caster of Druid spells, but doesn't have all the other bells and whistles of a Druid? Like, a Favored Soul, but uses the Druid spell list, or a Sorcerer, but minus the familiar and uses the Druid spell list?

The more direct answer is "play a Druid, and just never summon the Animal Companion nor use Wild Shape", but I was wondering if there was anything more explicit than that.

Try http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAvenger

And

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...RWfgbZRfpwc80xm

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Piell posted:

Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine.

unseenlibrarian posted:

You're looking at the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine.

Thanks! That is perfect.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat

If you play pathfinder you can also be a nature's fang druid and pick a domain.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/nature-fang/

Terratina
Jun 30, 2013
Y'know one thing that makes me sad us that one GM is gonna do Dungeon World or Pathfinder and in the case it's Pathfinder, I can't really create an equivalent of the DW dwarven cleric dude who's all like "the stones speak to me" in Pathfinder.

Stone Tell is a level 6/7 Druid/Shaman spell after all.

...Unless you guys have any ideas.

JohnnyCanuck
May 28, 2004

Strong And/Or Free
*MY WIFE* is still playing in her co-worker's 3.5 game as a gnome illusionist, currently level 5.

She's looking for ways to be more combat effective, while still remaining an illusionist.

Thoughts?

Madmarker
Jan 7, 2007

JohnnyCanuck posted:

*MY WIFE* is still playing in her co-worker's 3.5 game as a gnome illusionist, currently level 5.

She's looking for ways to be more combat effective, while still remaining an illusionist.

Thoughts?

http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=394.40


Phantasmal Strangler, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation are all pretty good things to look at

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat

JohnnyCanuck posted:

*MY WIFE* is still playing in her co-worker's 3.5 game as a gnome illusionist, currently level 5.

She's looking for ways to be more combat effective, while still remaining an illusionist.

Thoughts?

You can do a lot of work with silent image if you have time to prepare the battlefield ahead of time and are willing to lookup trap dc's. If she's just dungeon crawling, tell her to invest in some decent summon monster spells and then hide the party + summoned bros inside large illusions. It turns out that trying to figure out -which- monster to murder is startlingly difficult if they are surrounded by a sea of veritable murderhobos and imaginary friends which all look like adorable toddlers of whatever you're fighting's race.

Essentially the limit on illusionist combat effectiveness is how many notebooks of special effects she's willing to write up ahead of time.

Mirrors
Endless void of space
Perspective fuckery
etc etc etc

Take every feat, trait, item that increases your save DC, and have a fallback position (Summoned monster, buffs such as haste) for things to do when fighting the mindless "gently caress you illusionist" monster that will eventually show up if you make a habit of this. Even the -nicest- GMs in my experience get grouchy eventually when you pull out the notebook of terrible illusion pre-game-prep.

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!
I have a homebrew necromancer class that I'm playing in a 3.5e game. Currently (level 4) I can make necromentals and fast zombies, and in another level zombies I make will be able to retain one (Su) or (Ex) special attack or special quality as well. Can anyone think of anything offhand that I should be especially interested in getting, as far as zombies go? All I can think of are the elemental grues from CompArc and the spawn of jubilex from MM5 for elementals at around this level.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

Yawgmoth posted:

I have a homebrew necromancer class that I'm playing in a 3.5e game. Currently (level 4) I can make necromentals and fast zombies, and in another level zombies I make will be able to retain one (Su) or (Ex) special attack or special quality as well. Can anyone think of anything offhand that I should be especially interested in getting, as far as zombies go? All I can think of are the elemental grues from CompArc and the spawn of jubilex from MM5 for elementals at around this level.

See the Libris Mortis book for feats that give various broad bonuses to all undead you create - Strength bonuses, turn resistance, negative energy blasts when they die, etc.

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008

Yawgmoth posted:

I have a homebrew necromancer class that I'm playing in a 3.5e game. Currently (level 4) I can make necromentals and fast zombies, and in another level zombies I make will be able to retain one (Su) or (Ex) special attack or special quality as well. Can anyone think of anything offhand that I should be especially interested in getting, as far as zombies go? All I can think of are the elemental grues from CompArc and the spawn of jubilex from MM5 for elementals at around this level.

Can Devils be made into zombies? Amnizu (Fiendish Codex 2) have a (Su) ability, Stupefying Touch: In addition to the damage (2d4+4), creatures struck by stupefying touch must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or take 2d4 points of Intelligence damage. DC is Charisma-based.

RatEarth
Aug 7, 2017

I didn't say that.
but it'd be funny if I did
Started an Eberron campaign a while back in Pathfinder, playing as a changeling transmutation/illusion wizard, and I gotta say that I'm a much bigger fan of the Eberron changeling, especially since I got the Tooth of At-Ta-Ir, which gives me a constant tongues ability on top of a few other nice bonuses. So now I can shapeshift into any race, speak their language, and I can cast Cultural Adaptation to basically be the best diplomat of the group.

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!

Roadie posted:

See the Libris Mortis book for feats that give various broad bonuses to all undead you create - Strength bonuses, turn resistance, negative energy blasts when they die, etc.
I guess I wasn't clear; I'm looking for critters to reanimate as zombies that have cool special attacks/qualities. I have my feats and all that pretty well sorted.

JUST MAKING CHILI posted:

Can Devils be made into zombies? Amnizu (Fiendish Codex 2) have a (Su) ability, Stupefying Touch: In addition to the damage (2d4+4), creatures struck by stupefying touch must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or take 2d4 points of Intelligence damage. DC is Charisma-based.
Any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system can be made into a zombie, so yeah pretty much anything is on the table. 2d4 Int damage is pretty good, but the Will save is gonna to 14 at best (double HD but Cha drops to 1). Things with a low Will tend to have low Int too, though, so when it's good it'll be really good.

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
Gadacro demons from MM5 have a good ability: Eyethief (Ex) A gadacro can forgo its sneak attack damage or extra damage on a confirmed critical hit to instead blind its opponent for 5 rounds. A creature that has been blinded in this way cannot be affected again until it has recovered from the current effect. Creatures that lack eyes are immune.

Chain Devils have Dancing Chains (Su): A chain devil’s most awesome attack is its ability to control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes. In addition, a chain devil can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs. These chains attack as effectively as the devil itself.

Achaierai have Black Cloud (Ex): Up to three times per day an achaierai can release a choking, toxic black cloud. Those other than achaierai within 10 feet instantly take 2d6 points of damage. They must also succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be affected for 3 hours as though by an insanity spell (caster level 16th). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Achaierai and Gadacros can be summoned by a wizard with lesser planar binding, Amnizu and Chain Devils require planar binding.

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!
I wish the Wounding Spell metamagic feat wasn't so terrible, because it would be super in-flavor for my character.

Wounding Spell posted:

When affected by this feat, a spell that deals damage to a creature also inflicts a bleeding wound that does not heal normally. On each subsequent round, the victim loses 1 hit point at the beginning of your turn. The continuing hit point loss can be stopped with a Heal check (DC equal to the spell's save DC, or the save DC it would otherwise have in the case of a spell with no save), a cure spell, or a heal spell.
+2 spell level for +1 damage per turn. Or I could use Empower Spell and get +50% more damage right now. :thunk:

Anyone have any thoughts on how to make it not suck?

Name Change
Oct 9, 2005


Yawgmoth posted:

I wish the Wounding Spell metamagic feat wasn't so terrible, because it would be super in-flavor for my character.
+2 spell level for +1 damage per turn. Or I could use Empower Spell and get +50% more damage right now. :thunk:

Anyone have any thoughts on how to make it not suck?

Wow, that's hardcore garbage.

First of all, that bonus is worth no metamagic levels whatsoever unless it increased by your level by a large degree.

Bouquet
Jul 14, 2001

Yawgmoth posted:

Anyone have any thoughts on how to make it not suck?
It could do 1HP per HD per round, maximum of 3 or 4 times adjusted spell level or something like that. And/or it could reduce the target’s AC by adjusted spell level divided by three, round up. (I was going to suggest that it only reduce natural armor but that’s too fiddly.)

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!

Bouquet posted:

It could do 1HP per HD per round, maximum of 3 or 4 times adjusted spell level or something like that. And/or it could reduce the target’s AC by adjusted spell level divided by three, round up. (I was going to suggest that it only reduce natural armor but that’s too fiddly.)
That would probably be viable, and I do like the idea of a slight AC debuff. I was also thinking it could be functional as a sort of Fearsome Necromancy style feat; something along the lines of "whenever an enemy takes damage from a necromancy spell of yours, it bleeds for 1/2 CL (round down) damage per turn and -2 AC until magically healed or Heal check DC=spell's DC".

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
Have it deal 1 damage per turn per caster level.

Madmarker
Jan 7, 2007

Hey another weird question....I know the metamorphosis....share power with psicrystal and fusion trick is a drat good trick, but I'm curious, how do natural attacks work with fusion....lets say I turned myself into a 12 headed hydra and my psicyrstal into a stone golem, and then used fusion, would my natural attacks now be 12 head attacks and 2 slams, or do I have to choose which forms natural attacks I get?

the fusion spell from SRD doesn't really give me a good idea as to how this functions....any ideas?

Madmarker fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Apr 18, 2018

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008

Madmarker posted:

Hey another weird question....I know the metamorphosis....share power with psicrystal and fusion trick is a drat good trick, but I'm curious, how do natural attacks work with fusion....lets say I turned myself into a 12 headed hydra and my psicyrstal into a stone golem, and then used fusion, would my natural attacks now be 12 head attacks and 2 slams, or do I have to choose which forms natural attacks I get?

the fusion spell from SRD doesn't really give me a good idea as to how this functions....any ideas?

Fusion has a target of "one touch willing creature of your type and your size or smaller". Does metamorphosis change your type when used?

Madmarker
Jan 7, 2007

Yes it does

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





Yawgmoth posted:

I wish the Wounding Spell metamagic feat wasn't so terrible, because it would be super in-flavor for my character.
+2 spell level for +1 damage per turn. Or I could use Empower Spell and get +50% more damage right now. :thunk:

Anyone have any thoughts on how to make it not suck?

Have it do Con damage, a la a wounding weapon. It still won't be great at 1 con/round, but it's a start.

On another note, look at all the shapeshifting guides for nuts abilities - shapechange and whatnot is notable for letting you loot dumb abilities out of the Monster Manual.

Madmarker posted:

Hey another weird question....I know the metamorphosis....share power with psicrystal and fusion trick is a drat good trick, but I'm curious, how do natural attacks work with fusion....lets say I turned myself into a 12 headed hydra and my psicyrstal into a stone golem, and then used fusion, would my natural attacks now be 12 head attacks and 2 slams, or do I have to choose which forms natural attacks I get?

the fusion spell from SRD doesn't really give me a good idea as to how this functions....any ideas?

All the natural attacks fall under racial abilities so you are a winner who wins. You get them all, so if you morph into two critters of the same type this should be fine.

Eikre
May 2, 2009

Yawgmoth posted:

I wish the Wounding Spell metamagic feat wasn't so terrible, because it would be super in-flavor for my character.

"You know what I'd really like to do?" asked the wizard, his outstretched hands coursing with an arc of lightning that leapt down the spinal columns of several other sapient creatures, popping their eyeballs like grapes in a microwave. He answered himself: "I'd like to take a sabbatical to do some research on how to make a spell really wound people." He gestured, and in his hands there was a shining window to an endless expanse of noxious acid; he winged it at a fleeing opponent, who thereupon was overtaken and fell to the ground, writhing, chemically flayed, out of his own bubbling skin. "Like, I've got the style, I've got the panache, but I just don't think my schtick is going to come together until I can snap my fingers and people end up with wounds." Now content that the fight was over, he bade his pet demon closer and gave it a scratch behind the ears. Its name was 'Fifty Inch Razorcock, The Mouthfucker.'

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!

Eikre posted:

"You know what I'd really like to do?" asked the wizard, his outstretched hands coursing with an arc of lightning that leapt down the spinal columns of several other sapient creatures, popping their eyeballs like grapes in a microwave. He answered himself: "I'd like to take a sabbatical to do some research on how to make a spell really wound people." He gestured, and in his hands there was a shining window to an endless expanse of noxious acid; he winged it at a fleeing opponent, who thereupon was overtaken and fell to the ground, writhing, chemically flayed, out of his own bubbling skin. "Like, I've got the style, I've got the panache, but I just don't think my schtick is going to come together until I can snap my fingers and people end up with wounds." Now content that the fight was over, he bade his pet demon closer and gave it a scratch behind the ears. Its name was 'Fifty Inch Razorcock, The Mouthfucker.'
You have no idea how accurate this is and I love it. My necromancer is very fond of tearing his enemies' hands off, which now leave bleeding wounds (instead of magically cauterized wounds I guess).

We went with gradenko's post because he's the DM of the game. :v:

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

Eikre posted:

"You know what I'd really like to do?" asked the wizard, his outstretched hands coursing with an arc of lightning that leapt down the spinal columns of several other sapient creatures, popping their eyeballs like grapes in a microwave. He answered himself: "I'd like to take a sabbatical to do some research on how to make a spell really wound people." He gestured, and in his hands there was a shining window to an endless expanse of noxious acid; he winged it at a fleeing opponent, who thereupon was overtaken and fell to the ground, writhing, chemically flayed, out of his own bubbling skin. "Like, I've got the style, I've got the panache, but I just don't think my schtick is going to come together until I can snap my fingers and people end up with wounds." Now content that the fight was over, he bade his pet demon closer and gave it a scratch behind the ears. Its name was 'Fifty Inch Razorcock, The Mouthfucker.'

Time to make a metamagic that swaps verbal components for somatic components (specifically, hip thrusts) and then apply it to Power Word Kill.

Lamebot
Sep 8, 2005

ロボ顔菌~♡
Anyone manage to fit a frenzied berserker into their party before? I was thinking about a concept where I have an mage teamed with a berserker where they manipulate them through enchantment and illusion during their rage. Typical berserker precautions are to be taken of course.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





Lamebot posted:

Anyone manage to fit a frenzied berserker into their party before? I was thinking about a concept where I have an mage teamed with a berserker where they manipulate them through enchantment and illusion during their rage. Typical berserker precautions are to be taken of course.

Have them dip into warblade and iron heart surge the frenzy away if it becomes inconvenient.

Yawgmoth
Sep 10, 2003

This post is cursed!

Lamebot posted:

Anyone manage to fit a frenzied berserker into their party before? I was thinking about a concept where I have an mage teamed with a berserker where they manipulate them through enchantment and illusion during their rage. Typical berserker precautions are to be taken of course.
The last time I played with someone who took FB we had two casters in the party, one took Calm Emotions and the other had Ray of Exhaustion and Escalating Enfeeblement. So if he couldn't will save his way out of it, we could just drop his strength to 0 (or close to it).

JUST MAKING CHILI
Feb 14, 2008
Get something to stun or daze the berserker.

Hopefully he berserker takes quick recovery without telling the party.

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lightrook
Nov 7, 2016

Pin 188

Lamebot posted:

Anyone manage to fit a frenzied berserker into their party before? I was thinking about a concept where I have an mage teamed with a berserker where they manipulate them through enchantment and illusion during their rage. Typical berserker precautions are to be taken of course.

A trick I heard was to have your Frenzied Berserker find a safe and secluded place to exhaust all their Frenzies for the day so it's no longer an issue for anyone. Of course, it does mean you won't have Frenzy, but it does let you safely benefit from the class's other features, most notably Improved Power Attack, and you'll still have your base Rage to hulk out.

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